Bulls Fans Chant 'FIRE GARPAX' During Lavine ESPN Interview

[coldfish]

I was more discussing when people slip from demanding job performance into forming personal opinions about the people involved.

To be fair, the Chicago Bulls Vice-President of Operations has physically assaulted a former coach over difference of opinion. He has also lashed out with tempter tantrums against various members of the Chicago Sports media over legit questions being asked of him. I think it's fair to say, that on a personal level, he's not a good guy.

To be fair, MJ also "physically assaulted" a teammate during practice (and most likely more than once), and was a fierce competitor who would do almost anything to win. I'm not sure how MJ would do if he was constantly answering to the media the way Paxson has had to.

that said, is this really going to happen? Will there be major shake ups in the Bulls FO this offseason? That would mark a tremendous opportunity for the Bulls to make a fresh start if they do it correctly and I think would energize and excite all Bulls fans.

Based on many reports, MJ is a jerk on a personal level. Tremendous competitor and supremely talented . . . but a jerk. Not really a good example.

[P.C.]

Lol karma? You act like picking the wrong players and coaches is some kind of moral failing.

Some of the opinions you read on this forum have become really warped due to the frustration.

Things that imply:
The front office is evil.
The front office doesn't want to win.
The front office doesn't care.
The front office isn't trying.

They may in fact be bad or need to be replaced, but almost everyone universally thought they had a great off season this year until the games started, and now they're ridiculously dumb again. It's just how sports works (and the same is true of the opinions of players as well and I'm sure I'm guilty of it too) but sometimes I take a step back and think it's really surreal how much people get dehumanized in these discussions so regularly.

There's ample evidence to think the front office has been lazy for the last decade plus. Take for instance the lack of a coaching search, bringing in few draft prospects, not availing themselves of the Euro combine, the lack of communication to the fan base, and the inability to turn a trade. I'm sure the front office cares and wants to win in the same way that your daughter might want a pony. That's different than being willing to put in the work.

As per the evil bit -- you raised the VDN choking -- that **** was dark. We've also seen enough examples of Pax hiring people and drafting players that look like him to suggest that his approach is discriminatory. Maybe not actively but certainly passively, and I'm not sure if the difference matters to me. You couple that with their own laziness and emphasis on preaching about work ethic to the kids in league, the vast majority of whom are African American . . . there's quite a bit there, there.

You can defend them as human beings. I don't like the way they do business. I think it's pretty indicative of people I wouldn't want to work with.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

I guess this is nice to see in a way but other than embarrassing GarPax, it really isn't doing much. The best way to expedite this and create change is stop going to the games all together and stop purchasing Bulls related products altogether. Seeing as were still top 10 in league attendance, I don't think this is really happening.

Damaging the Bulls’ brand at a very-expensive-to-host event (that’s essentially about brand building) could very well be doing something. I think we should stop assuming GarPax is invulnerable to anything short of a direct withdrawal from Reinsdorf’s bank account. This stuff is adding up.

i'm not gonna say that these little protests don't have some small effect, but JR is more than aware that providing a good product on the court will have a positive effect on his bank account

I think there’s a human element. Nobody likes to be embarrassed. My union chartered a plane and flew a banner displaying a CEO’s salary over one his speaking events, and the guy blew a gasket. Rich people are, at the end of the day, people.

[Am2626]

a happenstance that they gave a big contract to coming off major injury w/o having proved himself? "alright, he can still jump high. give him the money." that makes no damn sense. it's quite obvious that they saw him as a, if not THE, primary piece in the butler deal. it was a gamble on low IQ talent. just like drafting tyrus thomas was. the antithesis of the "paxson way." zach is just working out a bit better


unless you're judging success on titles, that is factually false. pax was a very successful GM until the tank...which was kickstarted by his trade for zach lavine


jerry reinsdorf does not embarrass

Yes success is judged by titles not mediocrity. Without lucking into Rose Paxson’s best constructed team would have a ceiling of the second round. That’s the definition of being average. Now he is just bad as the game and new era has passed him by.

false. derrick rose's injury cost this team further success. substitute any combination of players into rose's salary slot and this team likely sees at least one more ECF appearance, if not finals. hell, they SHOULD have beaten lebron's cavs in 2015, but derrick was bad in the series

but you're right. the payton/kemp sonics, the cavs of the '80s, barkley's suns, drexler's blazers, reggie's pacers, the knicks of the '90s and the stockton/malone jazz clubs were all mediocre. no titles for them!

All the teams you mentioned played in the Finals. They also got beat by the greatest player to ever play. Paxson’s teams have a combined 1 Eastern Conference Finals appearance. Not anything similar. Those teams accomplished a lot more. You want to make a fair comparison then compare Paxson to the Atlanta Hawks teams of the 90’s and 2000’s that never got past the second round. Also having money to spend doesn’t guarantee that you will get the free agents you want. Look at how many times Paxson has struck out. Stop making excuses that Rose’s contract prevented Paxson from building a championship caliber team. Nothing he has done suggests that.

[dice]

Damaging the Bulls’ brand at a very-expensive-to-host event (that’s essentially about brand building) could very well be doing something. I think we should stop assuming GarPax is invulnerable to anything short of a direct withdrawal from Reinsdorf’s bank account. This stuff is adding up.

i'm not gonna say that these little protests don't have some small effect, but JR is more than aware that providing a good product on the court will have a positive effect on his bank account

I think there’s a human element. Nobody likes to be embarrassed. My union chartered a plane and flew a banner displaying a CEO’s salary over one his speaking events, and the guy blew a gasket. Rich people are, at the end of the day, people.

and yet JR has never shown any inclination toward being significantly affected by these things. he oversaw a long period of futility after a freaking dynasty fall apart due to organizational conflict. this is nothing in comparison

[Am2626]

Chant it during the entire ASG.

Bulls fans won’t be there.

It’s still Chicago

It will be a lot more impactful if this is done at a Bulls Home game.

[Am2626]

i'm not gonna say that these little protests don't have some small effect, but JR is more than aware that providing a good product on the court will have a positive effect on his bank account

I think there’s a human element. Nobody likes to be embarrassed. My union chartered a plane and flew a banner displaying a CEO’s salary over one his speaking events, and the guy blew a gasket. Rich people are, at the end of the day, people.

and yet JR has never shown any inclination toward being significantly affected by these things. he oversaw a long period of futility after a freaking dynasty fall apart due to organizational conflict. this is nothing in comparison

Negative publicity does get more fans to realize that there are real problems with this organization and may compel them to not spend money on Bulls tickets or merchandise. No one wants to be associated with a loser and laughingstock. That will affect Reinsdorf’s bottom line and that will get his attention.

[dice]

Yes success is judged by titles not mediocrity. Without lucking into Rose Paxson’s best constructed team would have a ceiling of the second round. That’s the definition of being average. Now he is just bad as the game and new era has passed him by.

false. derrick rose's injury cost this team further success. substitute any combination of players into rose's salary slot and this team likely sees at least one more ECF appearance, if not finals. hell, they SHOULD have beaten lebron's cavs in 2015, but derrick was bad in the series

but you're right. the payton/kemp sonics, the cavs of the '80s, barkley's suns, drexler's blazers, reggie's pacers, the knicks of the '90s and the stockton/malone jazz clubs were all mediocre. no titles for them!

All the teams you mentioned played in the Finals. They also got beat by the greatest player to ever play. Paxson’s teams have a combined 1 Eastern Conference Finals appearance. Not anything similar. Those teams accomplished a lot more. You want to make a fair comparison then compare Paxson to the Atlanta Hawks teams of the 90’s and 2000’s that never got past the second round.

so it's not actually about championships but who you lose to? ummm...the bulls lost to lebron james a number of times there

Stop making excuses that Rose’s contract prevented Paxson from building a championship caliber team. Nothing he has done suggests that.

completely ignorant comment. first of all, you just got finished saying that what you had said previously about championships being all that matter was not really what you were saying. now you're again switching back to the "championship caliber" argument! whatever's convenient, i guess...

secondly, a blind monkey could have throw darts at a free agent dartboard with the derrick rose money and significantly upgraded an already strong roster. and you have it ass-backwards on paxson. nothing he has done in the free agency market suggests that he COULDN'T have made those upgrades. boozer, gasol, dunleavy, korver, brewer...all significant contributors to those bulls teams, all paxson free agent signings. just because paxson couldn't land lebron james doesn't mean he was incompetent in free agency. and that's the insinuation you're feebly trying to make

i already pointed out that lebron's heat and cavs teams had similar payrolls. the difference was that the heat and cavs were paying a big chunk of that to lebron james while the bulls were paying it to an injured derrick rose. and yet the bulls were STILL competitive. that's a tribute to john paxson. huge, HUGE structural disadvantage

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

i'm not gonna say that these little protests don't have some small effect, but JR is more than aware that providing a good product on the court will have a positive effect on his bank account

I think there’s a human element. Nobody likes to be embarrassed. My union chartered a plane and flew a banner displaying a CEO’s salary over one his speaking events, and the guy blew a gasket. Rich people are, at the end of the day, people.

and yet JR has never shown any inclination toward being significantly affected by these things. he oversaw a long period of futility after a freaking dynasty fall apart due to organizational conflict. this is nothing in comparison

Reinsdorf gave Krause five rebuilding years after the guy had put together 6 championship teams. When that didn’t work, he forced him to “retire.” That doesn’t tell me ownership is immune to public pressure.

[dice]

I think there’s a human element. Nobody likes to be embarrassed. My union chartered a plane and flew a banner displaying a CEO’s salary over one his speaking events, and the guy blew a gasket. Rich people are, at the end of the day, people.

and yet JR has never shown any inclination toward being significantly affected by these things. he oversaw a long period of futility after a freaking dynasty fall apart due to organizational conflict. this is nothing in comparison

Reinsdorf gave Krause five rebuilding years after the guy had put together 6 championship teams. When that didn’t work, he forced him to “retire.” That doesn’t tell me ownership is immune to public pressure.

you're making 2 assumptions that there frankly isn't any evidence to support:

1) krause was forced to retire, and
2) it was public pressure that caused it rather than JR recognizing that krause simply wasn't getting the job done anymore

there was way more public pressure on the FO when the dynasty disintegrated than there was 5 years later or ever since

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

and yet JR has never shown any inclination toward being significantly affected by these things. he oversaw a long period of futility after a freaking dynasty fall apart due to organizational conflict. this is nothing in comparison

Reinsdorf gave Krause five rebuilding years after the guy had put together 6 championship teams. When that didn’t work, he forced him to “retire.” That doesn’t tell me ownership is immune to public pressure.

you're making 2 assumptions that there frankly isn't any evidence to support:

1) krause was forced to retire, and
2) it was public pressure that caused it rather than JR recognizing that krause simply wasn't getting the job done anymore

there was way more public pressure on the FO when the dynasty disintegrated than there was 5 years later or ever since

1) At the time there was a lot of reporting that suggested Krause was essentially fired. Is that evidence? No. But it’s fairly close.

2. I’m not saying public pressure was the reason Krause was let go. I’m saying his post-dynasty tenure isn’t evidence that the Reinsdorfs don’t care about fan opinion, which is what you said in your previous post.

[Am2626]

false. derrick rose's injury cost this team further success. substitute any combination of players into rose's salary slot and this team likely sees at least one more ECF appearance, if not finals. hell, they SHOULD have beaten lebron's cavs in 2015, but derrick was bad in the series

but you're right. the payton/kemp sonics, the cavs of the '80s, barkley's suns, drexler's blazers, reggie's pacers, the knicks of the '90s and the stockton/malone jazz clubs were all mediocre. no titles for them!

All the teams you mentioned played in the Finals. They also got beat by the greatest player to ever play. Paxson’s teams have a combined 1 Eastern Conference Finals appearance. Not anything similar. Those teams accomplished a lot more. You want to make a fair comparison then compare Paxson to the Atlanta Hawks teams of the 90’s and 2000’s that never got past the second round.

so it's not actually about championships but who you lose to? ummm...the bulls lost to lebron james a number of times there

Stop making excuses that Rose’s contract prevented Paxson from building a championship caliber team. Nothing he has done suggests that.

completely ignorant comment. first of all, you just got finished saying that what you had said previously about championships being all that matter was not really what you were saying. now you're again switching back to the "championship caliber" argument! whatever's convenient, i guess...

secondly, a blind monkey could have throw darts at a free agent dartboard with the derrick rose money and significantly upgraded an already strong roster. and you have it ass-backwards on paxson. nothing he has done in the free agency market suggests that he COULDN'T have made those upgrades. boozer, gasol, dunleavy, korver, brewer...all significant contributors to those bulls teams, all paxson free agent signings. just because paxson couldn't land lebron james doesn't mean he was incompetent in free agency. and that's the insinuation you're feebly trying to make

i already pointed out that lebron's heat and cavs teams had similar payrolls. the difference was that the heat and cavs were paying a big chunk of that to lebron james while the bulls were paying it to an injured derrick rose. and yet the bulls were STILL competitive. that's a tribute to john paxson. huge, HUGE structural disadvantage

That’s a tribute to Thibs not Paxson. Very few coaches would have been able to get that team to the levels that they got to. Then GarPax goes and Firea Thibs and hires a coach that took the same Roster to 8 less wins that couldn’t even make the playoffs the next year. That right there shows how important and valuable Thibs was. Reinsdorf hired Thibs not Paxson so you can’t even give Paxson credit for that.

Paxson didn’t just miss on LeBron. He has missed on every top tier free agent in his tenure with the exception of Ben Wallace who was a one dimensional player. We saw how that worked out. All the free agents he got were consolation prizes after missing on his intended targets.

When will he land the Durants, LeBron’s, Harden’s of the world? Probably never but he will try and convince fans that 2021 is the year. If he strikes out again then what’s the excuse then? How many chances should he keep getting?

[dice]

All the teams you mentioned played in the Finals. They also got beat by the greatest player to ever play. Paxson’s teams have a combined 1 Eastern Conference Finals appearance. Not anything similar. Those teams accomplished a lot more. You want to make a fair comparison then compare Paxson to the Atlanta Hawks teams of the 90’s and 2000’s that never got past the second round.

so it's not actually about championships but who you lose to? ummm...the bulls lost to lebron james a number of times there

Stop making excuses that Rose’s contract prevented Paxson from building a championship caliber team. Nothing he has done suggests that.

completely ignorant comment. first of all, you just got finished saying that what you had said previously about championships being all that matter was not really what you were saying. now you're again switching back to the "championship caliber" argument! whatever's convenient, i guess...

secondly, a blind monkey could have throw darts at a free agent dartboard with the derrick rose money and significantly upgraded an already strong roster. and you have it ass-backwards on paxson. nothing he has done in the free agency market suggests that he COULDN'T have made those upgrades. boozer, gasol, dunleavy, korver, brewer...all significant contributors to those bulls teams, all paxson free agent signings. just because paxson couldn't land lebron james doesn't mean he was incompetent in free agency. and that's the insinuation you're feebly trying to make

i already pointed out that lebron's heat and cavs teams had similar payrolls. the difference was that the heat and cavs were paying a big chunk of that to lebron james while the bulls were paying it to an injured derrick rose. and yet the bulls were STILL competitive. that's a tribute to john paxson. huge, HUGE structural disadvantage

That’s a tribute to Thibs not Paxson. Very few coaches would have been able to get that team to the levels that they got to. Then GarPax goes and Firea Thibs and hires a coach that took the same Roster to 8 less wins that couldn’t even make the playoffs the next year. That right there shows how important and valuable Thibs was. Reinsdorf hired Thibs not Paxson so you can’t even give Paxson credit for that.

you ignored the fact that noah got injured in hoiberg's first season. he was never the same. also gasol/dunleavy were one year closer to the end

it's fair to give a lot of credit to thibs. it's UNfair not to give pax credit for the supporting cast put around derrick rose. and he is entirely responsible for that. it wasn't dumb luck

the bulls were still an average team w/o thibs. DESPITE rose's contract. DESPITE noah falling apart. that is evidence of a GOOD GM, not a failure

When will he land the Durants, LeBron’s, Harden’s of the world? Probably never but he will try and convince fans that 2021 is the year. If he strikes out again then what’s the excuse then? How many chances should he keep getting?

harden, durant and lebron? what a preposterous standard for a GM to keep his job. one of those guys was acquired by a great trade. credit to morey. the other two left their original teams to play buddy ball w/ fellow superstars. and the bulls almost got lebron and wade anyway!

[League Circles]

Damaging the Bulls’ brand at a very-expensive-to-host event (that’s essentially about brand building) could very well be doing something. I think we should stop assuming GarPax is invulnerable to anything short of a direct withdrawal from Reinsdorf’s bank account. This stuff is adding up.

i'm not gonna say that these little protests don't have some small effect, but JR is more than aware that providing a good product on the court will have a positive effect on his bank account

I think there’s a human element. Nobody likes to be embarrassed. My union chartered a plane and flew a banner displaying a CEO’s salary over one his speaking events, and the guy blew a gasket. Rich people are, at the end of the day, people.

Haha that's awesome

[pwrshft99]

I love it!!! Most passion this board has shown in a long time!!!


#FIREGARPAX

[dice]

Reinsdorf gave Krause five rebuilding years after the guy had put together 6 championship teams. When that didn’t work, he forced him to “retire.” That doesn’t tell me ownership is immune to public pressure.

you're making 2 assumptions that there frankly isn't any evidence to support:

1) krause was forced to retire, and
2) it was public pressure that caused it rather than JR recognizing that krause simply wasn't getting the job done anymore

there was way more public pressure on the FO when the dynasty disintegrated than there was 5 years later or ever since

1) At the time there was a lot of reporting that suggested Krause was essentially fired.

was there? can you find any of it?

2. I’m not saying public pressure was the reason Krause was let go. I’m saying his post-dynasty tenure isn’t evidence that the Reinsdorfs don’t care about fan opinion, which is what you said in your previous post.

i was suggesting that if JR didn't fire krause when his public reputation was at its lowest, he's not going to fire garpax due to far less public pressure. could it play some small part? sure

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

you're making 2 assumptions that there frankly isn't any evidence to support:

1) krause was forced to retire, and
2) it was public pressure that caused it rather than JR recognizing that krause simply wasn't getting the job done anymore

there was way more public pressure on the FO when the dynasty disintegrated than there was 5 years later or ever since

1) At the time there was a lot of reporting that suggested Krause was essentially fired.

was there? can you find any of it?

2. I’m not saying public pressure was the reason Krause was let go. I’m saying his post-dynasty tenure isn’t evidence that the Reinsdorfs don’t care about fan opinion, which is what you said in your previous post.

i was suggesting that if JR didn't fire krause when his public reputation was at its lowest, he's not going to fire garpax due to far less public pressure. could it play some small part? sure

I’ll look for articles later if I have time. I remember it being common knowledge that Krause was let go. I mean, he did go on to work in sports for another 8 years after he “retired.”

As for public pressure, the mitigating circumstances around Krause are a) he had six championships worth of currency with ownership during the rebuild, and b) Reinsdorf wasn’t blameless for the break up of the Bulls, and he knew it. Even still, five years isn’t a terribly long time for a GM to fail. Especially one with Krause’s resume.

[bullsnewdynasty]

The thing that bothers me the most is that Reinsdorf/GarPax get ZERO heat and I do mean zero from the local media, while the FO of other Chicago teams get excoriated for far smaller failures. That's not even mentioning the national media which barely gives them a glance.

[Am2626]

[youtube][/youtube]

The thing that bothers me the most is that Reinsdorf/GarPax get ZERO heat and I do mean zero from the local media, while the FO of other Chicago teams get excoriated for far smaller failures. That's not even mentioning the national media which barely gives them a glance.

Yeah I never understood that. I don’t know if it is because the Bears and Cubs are more popular and people just care more about those teams or if it is something else. Doesn’t Reinsdorf have some sort of media ownership with Chicago Sportsnet? Maybe that influences things.

[dice]

1) At the time there was a lot of reporting that suggested Krause was essentially fired.

was there? can you find any of it?

2. I’m not saying public pressure was the reason Krause was let go. I’m saying his post-dynasty tenure isn’t evidence that the Reinsdorfs don’t care about fan opinion, which is what you said in your previous post.

i was suggesting that if JR didn't fire krause when his public reputation was at its lowest, he's not going to fire garpax due to far less public pressure. could it play some small part? sure

I’ll look for articles later if I have time. I remember it being common knowledge that Krause was let go. I mean, he did go on to work in sports for another 8 years after he “retired.”

he didn't work for nearly 2 years after leaving the bulls. and i'm gonna guess that being a baseball scout wasn't quite as stressful

As for public pressure, the mitigating circumstances around Krause are a) he had six championships worth of currency with ownership during the rebuild, and b) Reinsdorf wasn’t blameless for the break up of the Bulls, and he knew it. Even still, five years isn’t a terribly long time for a GM to fail. Especially one with Krause’s resume.

true