Tribune: Thibodeau stresses players should play if .....

[DuckIII]

and one more time: What about this conclusion = He didn't play the last one!?

In the article I just quoted, it reveals that he felt well enough to play the morning of the Charlotte game. 1.5 days after the NO minutes. But then at some point between the shoot-around and the game, the decision was made that he not play.

I am not saying that NO game did not inflame his back spasms. I'm merely saying that I don't know that it did. And nothing about Rose's own statements suggest that it did.

And I'm furthermore saying that, regardless, none of this necessarily leads to the conclusion that the Bulls' staff was wrong to test him against NO based on the information they had at the time.

Maybe we should stop "our" discussion, because it's senseless. Also I'm afraid to get suspended.

I'm not a moderator. And even if I were, there is a huge difference between a heated disagreement between interested fans, and something calling for a suspension. I'm sure the actual moderators agree.

[DuckIII]

I.e., none of us know what the hell we are talking about.

In this entire thread, this may be the most cogent line of text.

We're 95% sure that mistakes have been made, right? We just don't understand the dynamics well enough to know who is at fault.

I don't even agree that anyone is necessarily at fault. Perfectly sound medical-based decisions can lead to undesirable results without fault. We have the bodies of human beings, not of robots.

If I were however playing percentages, and speculating, if there were fault it might look like this:

90% Derrick Rose, 9.9% medical staff, 0.1% Thibaaaaa.

[DuckIII]

Obviously there is speculation on the Bulls, this the Bulls message board after all, but talking about the severity of injuries, who makes the call on who can and cannot play, and other injury happenings as fact is crazy to me.

I've been far more long winded in explaining why I feel this way, but . . . I feel this way.

[P.C.]

You know who I'm ready to blame: Michael Jordan.

You have to imagine that Reinsdorf's approach to handling player injuries has been colored by the fact that he essentially poisoned the waters with the greatest player in the game in only his second season. I'd probably be gun shy too.

[fleet]

I don't even agree that anyone is necessarily at fault. Perfectly sound medical-based decisions can lead to undesirable results without fault. We have the bodies of human beings, not of robots.

If I were however playing percentages, and speculating, if there were fault it might look like this:

90% Derrick Rose, 9.9% medical staff, 0.1% Thibaaaaa.

so then we at least agree that Rose is an unreliable reporter of his own condition. It would behoove the coach to get clued in. He should have been already.

[DanTown8587]

To the people who are upset that Rose played, the point Duck is trying to make (and I agree with) is that we don't know enough of the evidence to get that upset. I mean I'm upset he played, but who should I be upset with? The medical staff who potentially cleared him? Thibs who should have seen the issues? Rose for not knowing his body well enough? All of them?

And to be honest, I think Thibs doesn't coach with limits on guys. Just by the way Deng was handled.

[JakeK]

"The lower back is an enigma."

--Det. Pat Lakewood

[P.C.]

"The lower back is an enigma."

--Det. Pat Lakewood

Your mom is an enigma.

In a second grader's voice: "BBBUUUUUURRRRRRNNNNNN!!!!"

[BeKuK]

I am not saying that NO game did not inflame his back spasms. I'm merely saying that I don't know that it did. And nothing about Rose's own statements suggest that it did.

The NO game couldn't inflame what already has been there.

And I'm furthermore saying that, regardless, none of this necessarily leads to the conclusion that the Bulls' staff was wrong to test him against NO based on the information they had at the time.

Here I disagree. The test wasn't bad at all, but it was a damn long test ..... have you seen the game Duck? If yes, so please agree that you have seen after pretty less minutes that he wasn't ok. Then you have(normally) to agree that 22min was too long or too much.

[fleet]

22 minutes against one of the worst teams in recent memory. Thats an aggravating factor there.

[GetBuLLish]

To the people who are upset that Rose played, the point Duck is trying to make (and I agree with) is that we don't know enough of the evidence to get that upset.

I'm really not that upset. I advocated for 2 games of rest. Rose got one full game of rest and his minutes were limited in the other. Pretty close to two full games.

It all seemed to play out just like I imagined. In fact, here's Watson talking about starting against Charlotte:

"I knew he wasn't going to play today," Watson said. "I knew that [Thursday] coming in. Because we have a big game against Boston. I already knew."

Seems like the Bulls adopted the same strategy many of us advocated for.

[DuckIII]

I don't even agree that anyone is necessarily at fault. Perfectly sound medical-based decisions can lead to undesirable results without fault. We have the bodies of human beings, not of robots.

If I were however playing percentages, and speculating, if there were fault it might look like this:

90% Derrick Rose, 9.9% medical staff, 0.1% Thibaaaaa.

so then we at least agree that Rose is an unreliable reporter of his own condition. It would behoove the coach to get clued in. He should have been already.

No, we don't agree on that. I said if I were to speculate. I have zero data. Just results. And using results only to reach conclusions about conduct based on prior knowledge (which none of us have) is, to the say least, flawed.

I don't have the information I think a reasonable person would need to lay blame, if there is indeed any blame at all. I suppose that is my ultimate point.

[kyrv]

To the people who are upset that Rose played, the point Duck is trying to make (and I agree with) is that we don't know enough of the evidence to get that upset. I mean I'm upset he played, but who should I be upset with? The medical staff who potentially cleared him? Thibs who should have seen the issues? Rose for not knowing his body well enough? All of them?

And to be honest, I think Thibs doesn't coach with limits on guys. Just by the way Deng was handled.

I think the Bulls need to look at their process and fine tune it.

Not about blame or fault in my opinion, just fix it.

[scoutshonor]

I am still at a loss trying to understand what is wrong with a little rest?

A. Are you guys betting against a spread?

B. get super excited about 30 point blow out wins versus a 10 point win?

C. Worried that CJ is going to put Rose on the trade block? Or Butler put deng on the trading block?

D. Feel the regular season record is THAT important...given we will likely end up a 1 or 2 seed even if Rose misses the rest of the year?


Seriously, where is the downside in resting Rose and Deng for a game here and there or limiting minutes in blowouts? I personally dont care if anything is wrong with them or not and its not like we are chasing history in a strike shortened season.

I would totally understand everyone in Duck and Kyrv's camp if it was an 82 game season and the Bulls were 26-3...I'd say go for it! chase history. But its a 66 game season and we are 23-6...so seriously...where the heck is th edown side in some rest?

or are we

E. just arguing to fill up the realgm pages? Howard put out a memo to all mods and former mods to stir the pots?

Some of these threads make no sense whatsoever...give your horses food, rest, and water whenever you can and good is good. jeremy Lin is playing very good...on that note so is james Johnson.

[dougthonus]

I am not saying that NO game did not inflame his back spasms. I'm merely saying that I don't know that it did. And nothing about Rose's own statements suggest that it did.

"I could barely walk (after New Orleans)," Rose said.

Has your standard of evidence now been reached now that Rose has been quoted as saying he could barely walk after the Hornets game?

Would you now agree that he should have sat out the Hornets game?

[fleet]

I am not saying that NO game did not inflame his back spasms. I'm merely saying that I don't know that it did. And nothing about Rose's own statements suggest that it did.

"I could barely walk (after New Orleans)," Rose said.

Has your standard of evidence now been reached now that Rose has been quoted as saying he could barely walk after the Hornets game?

Would you now agree that he should have sat out the Hornets game?

There has to he some intellectual curiosity among the coaching staff and management to investigate the conditon of your franchise player from game to game. I think this is a scandal if it turns out Rose aggravated something when it should have been avoided by the coach stepping away from the General Patton routine. Scandal potential. Hope nothing comes of this. Jesus H!

[GetBuLLish]

Magic Johnson: "The Bulls made a mistake playing Rose against New Orleans. He should have been resting."

FWIW

[fleet]

Magic Johnson: "The Bulls made a mistake playing Rose against New Orleans. He should have been resting."

FWIW

Its worth a lot.

[Rerisen]

"I could barely walk (after New Orleans)," Rose said.

Has your standard of evidence now been reached now that Rose has been quoted as saying he could barely walk after the Hornets game?

Would you now agree that he should have sat out the Hornets game?

This quote is even more damning.

It's been hurting the whole trip," Rose said. "I just played through it. It tended to get worse after every game. I was really worried about it. But I'm trying to stay positive. I don't know what the diagnosis is. I just know my back is not right."

[DanTown8587]

"I could barely walk (after New Orleans)," Rose said.

Has your standard of evidence now been reached now that Rose has been quoted as saying he could barely walk after the Hornets game?

Would you now agree that he should have sat out the Hornets game?

This quote is even more damning.

It's been hurting the whole trip," Rose said. "I just played through it. It tended to get worse after every game. I was really worried about it. But I'm trying to stay positive. I don't know what the diagnosis is. I just know my back is not right."

If his back had hurt that much, you obviously need to to be sitting him. I was in the wait for more evidence camp, and the more evidence has now arrived. But for god's sake, what the hell is a hurt player doing playing in games in January and February with an injury as serious as a back injury?