Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[Stratmaster]

Jimmy demanded to lead this team, basically alpha'd our true leader Noah. And this is, so far, what a Jimmy led team looks like. I'm sure he had the best intentions for the team by calling out Noah and now Hoiberg. I'm sure he wants to motivate the team and coaches to be better. But this was a clear miscalculation on his part and as such completely loses my respect for him as a leader. I wouldn't be surprised to learn his team feels the same way.

He called out Noah?

[TheStig]

Obviously, I disagree. Mirotic was one hot month last year. Some people took his hot month as evidence that he was being misused. I just thought it was a statistical aberration. His other months look a lot like this year.

Mirotic played well, at least offensively to start the season. He shot and scored the ball well. In november he had a .584 TS% and December a 61% TS. He floundered in January and February before blowing up with more minutes in March and trailed off in April. You don't get an 18 PER for a season by having just one hot month. Mirotic's +/- by month: -3.7, +13.5, +0.3, +8.3, +7.7, +6.8.

To say Thibodeau was right about Mirotic would be just wrong. Mirotic was not playing like this last season.

Per 36:
Last year: 18.1p 8.8r 40%fg 32%3p 5.0ftm 48%efg
This year: 16.3p 9.3r 38%fg 34%3p 3.0ftm 48%efg

The difference in his PER, points per minute and TS% is mostly just his free throws. People bit on his pump fake, drive and flail routine a lot. Now, they figured his gimmick out. He isn't a good shooter and now that teams figured out he isn't the stretch 4 they thought he was at first, the rest is being exposed.

I think the only way Mirotic gets people to bite on the pump fake is becoming an elite 3pt shooter. Movement would also help. There is just too much standing around in the offense.

[musiqsoulchild]

Fred Hoiberg has a pacemaker in his heart. He's had multiple cardiac procedures. A long NBA career, a strong showing in the FO in Minny and a distinguished resume in NCAA.

I doubt he gives 2 flying **** on how Jimmy thinks he should coach the team. Especially, when that feedback is delivered via the media.

Jimmy - you made your money, you are playing well, just know that your hardship to success story doesn't mean other folks in the NBA don't have the same stories.

Fred's paid his dues already.

Fred's paid his dues already - what does that mean? That he can sit back and let the team coach itself? We've seen this season that Fred Hoiberg has been a below average NBA coach. We've passed the quarter point of the season and he still doesn't understand how to manage simple NBA rotations and substitutions. That's not to say he can't get better - I certainly would bet he will in the future. But because he's been around the league a while means that we all can give him a pass? You know who else "paid his dues already"? Byron Scott. Sam Mitchell. I simply don't see how paying your dues makes you infallible.

Speaking to a larger point, I'm not entirely bothered by Jimmy's comments because I think it's going to mix things up in the locker room quite a bit. Could that be bad for the team? There's a possibility. However, continuing with the current status quo won't result in anything good, so I'd rather have someone looking to change things than standing pat and accepting mediocrity.

You didn't get my point at all.

Would Fred Hoiberg be a better coach if he:

1) Tweeted that Niko Mirotic is a terrible teammate?
2) Told Sam Smith that Derrick Rose is only playing well in nationally televised games?
3) Told Nick Friedell that Pau Gasol is the worst defender he has ever seen?
4) Told Haugh that Jimmy Butler plays too much ISO.

That doesn't make him any better than he is today as a coach.

The Jimmy method of strong-arming Fred through the media is NOT going to work. Because Fred is already a strong personality with his own basketball chops in coaching, player management and as a player himself. That was my point about "paying dues". This isn't a battle between unequals. Fred can stand up for himself quite nicely - and that's without Gar or Pax even stepping in.

Yes he is new to the NBA coaching and new to the Chicago Bulls. But so was Jimmy 5 seasons ago. Everyone has growing pains and learning curves.

Imagine if Fred told the media that "Pau needs to listen to the coaches more" OR "Jimmy needs to play within the team construct".

There is no relative right or wrong here. Jimmy is ABSOLUTELY wrong here.

Even from a logic/basketball perspective - it's kind of ridiculous to use the second game played on a night after a 4 OT game and a game in which Pau was not available and everyone else pretty much stunk ( including Jimmy) - it makes like ZERO sense for Jimmy to use that night as the time for laying the gauntlet at Fred.

And the place for it was also ABSOLUTELY wrong. It's NEVER in front of a microphone. You do that if you are getting poor advise OR if you are frustrated and do not have the capacity to regulate yourself emotionally.

If it's the latter, then Jimmy is a terrible leader of men.

[umfan83]

Jimmy demanded to lead this team, basically alpha'd our true leader Noah. And this is, so far, what a Jimmy led team looks like. I'm sure he had the best intentions for the team by calling out Noah and now Hoiberg. I'm sure he wants to motivate the team and coaches to be better. But this was a clear miscalculation on his part and as such completely loses my respect for him as a leader. I wouldn't be surprised to learn his team feels the same way.

He called out Noah?

Sorry I should clarify. He indirectly called out Noah in the preseason saying that the Bulls have lacked leadership in previous seasons. Noah was essentially the leader the past 3 seasons so I considered this calling him out and usurping Noah as the leader of the team.

[Stratmaster]

Why do people keep throwing out that Jimmy is not that good? Not as good as what exactly?

If so what is good enough to voice their opinion?

If there is a "Good Enough" point, then the whole argument makes no sense.

You either CAN call out your coach or you CANT. Which one is it?

Easy. You can't. Period. Any more than I can go publicly in front of my customers and call out my boss and expect to keep a job. If Jimmy has a problem, talk to fred. If he still has a problem, talk to Gar/Pax. If he still has a problem, talk to Jerry. If he still has a problem, ask to be traded (privately) as soon as possible. If they won't trade him, he can quit.

[musiqsoulchild]

Jimmy is stuck here for 4 more years. Don't think he wants to replay last year with this team. And that's exactly the track they are on.

His comments aren't PC but if they can disrupt this elevated mediocrity enough to cause a change, he might just be sly like a fox.

This is not the way to disrupt.

Worked for Kobe.

You just made my point.

If Jimmy is going to be Kobe like with his mouth ONLY and not as good with the ball- then he's just being a petty, puerile, crappy teammate.

Which is what Kobe and MJ were.

They just happened to be so excellent at basketball - that it didn't matter that they were insolent pricks.

[Stratmaster]

Jimmy demanded to lead this team, basically alpha'd our true leader Noah. And this is, so far, what a Jimmy led team looks like. I'm sure he had the best intentions for the team by calling out Noah and now Hoiberg. I'm sure he wants to motivate the team and coaches to be better. But this was a clear miscalculation on his part and as such completely loses my respect for him as a leader. I wouldn't be surprised to learn his team feels the same way.

He called out Noah?

Sorry I should clarify. He indirectly called out Noah in the preseason saying that the Bulls have lacked leadership in previous seasons. Noah was essentially the leader the past 3 seasons so I considered this calling him out and usurping Noah as the leader of the team.

OK. Gotcha.

If that is truly what Jimmy meant, and he truly was calling out Noah's effort or leadership, then he is even stupider than his recent comments make him look. Jo's effort and leadership last night make Jimmy look like a spoiled rotten child.

[musiqsoulchild]

Fred Hoiberg has a pacemaker in his heart. He's had multiple cardiac procedures. A long NBA career, a strong showing in the FO in Minny and a distinguished resume in NCAA.

I doubt he gives 2 flying **** on how Jimmy thinks he should coach the team. Especially, when that feedback is delivered via the media.

Jimmy - you made your money, you are playing well, just know that your hardship to success story doesn't mean other folks in the NBA don't have the same stories.

Fred's paid his dues already.

Are these supposed to be resume items? Don't understand what this has to do with anything here. If anything, those are concerns in a head coach...>See Steve Kerr, you remember him right, the guy who has missed this entire season...
Heart troubles, NCAA experience and FO experience don't translate to a successful NBA head coach, sorry...

Rtblues, the point I am making is that Fred has seen much worse in life than a childish outbursts to the media from an NBA player.

I doubt that he's worried about it.

[DarthDiggler69]

Butler's ego is becoming too big, which for me resurrects the belief that the Rose-Butler feud thing could have legs now(which I never believed was true). Rose stopped playing and let Butler do his thing. Imo

Then Butler ISOing a lot forces Rose not to run Hoiberg's sets. Also makes sense why Butler was asking to play PG so he can dominate the ball more. Rose probably got upset about this Butler takeover and thats why we were seeing him becoming passive for a while, the whole offense by the starters was lost.

Now as Rose seems to be more aggressive(other then last night he was tired) and running the sets Butler starts to scapegoating the coach, and the timing couldn't have been worse.

People been silently complaining for a while that Butler is stopping the offense and Rose was being passive, well now we know why.

[GetBuLLish]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/KCJHoop/status/678617424581758976[/tweet]

And before you know it, here's KC with the FO's side of things. In sum: "Butler is not really mad about the team's effort. He's just mad that Hoiberg's offense doesn't fit his style. In other words, he's selfish."

Only a matter of time before Butler is added to the insanely long list of people who the Bulls organization has had issues with. And judging from the comments here, it's already pretty clear which side many on this board will take: the FO.

[JGeils]

Why do people keep throwing out that Jimmy is not that good? Not as good as what exactly?

If so what is good enough to voice their opinion?

If there is a "Good Enough" point, then the whole argument makes no sense.

You either CAN call out your coach or you CANT. Which one is it?

Easy. You can't. Period. Any more than I can go publicly in front of my customers and call out my boss and expect to keep a job. If Jimmy has a problem, talk to fred. If he still has a problem, talk to Gar/Pax. If he still has a problem, talk to Jerry. If he still has a problem, ask to be traded (privately) as soon as possible. If they won't trade him, he can quit.

The issue with this is that you're presuming Butler hasn't talked with Hoiberg about this, be it on Saturday night or the myriad other times that it would have been appropriate as You Know Who walks the ball up court slowly

[MC3]

So Butler doesnt wanna accept new coach and his vision after 25 games. He probably didnt like Thibs (from same standpoint) probably for same reason cause Thibs pushed Derrick and always put ball in his hands.

[DASMACKDOWN]

Fred does need to be more vocal and hold people accountable.

But here is the problem from hearing over the last few months from Jimmy and from Doug McDermott.

Some people cannot handle or don't like being accountable for mistakes. Aaron Brooks also echoed this comment.
Some people respond really well to being called out. As Jimmy has said on more than one occasion.

So to me the team has always been split in that regard.

Thibs called people out and held them responsible. That ruffled feathers.
Fred is soft spoken, doesn't hold people accountable. That ruffled feathers.

Basically its the same result from two different sides of the coin.

I totally agree with Jimmy that there needs to be a happy medium. Its more difficult for Thibs to simmer down and be the nice guy. But for Fred he needs to find a balance of being firm but fair.

Fred from all accounts people like the guy. But he also has to be able to turn all the way up when things aren't going well.

[DarthDiggler69]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/KCJHoop/status/678617424581758976[/tweet]

And before you know it, here's KC with the FO's side of things. In sum: "Butler is not really mad about the team's effort. He's just mad that Hoiberg's offense doesn't fit his style. In other words, he's selfish."

Only a matter of time before Butler is added to the insanely long list of people who the Bulls organization has had issues with. And judging from the comments here, it's already pretty clear which side many on this board will take: the FO.

FO didnt need to say that, it was plainly obvious from all the ugly iso's that mess up the sets

Of course I'd take the Bulls over Butler, as a Bulls fan and a Chicagoan I can. As a Bulls fan for 35 years I don't have loyalty to players, coaches or management, ive done it before and I learned not to, but I just want them to work as one.

[Rerisen]

Regardless, when's the last time Rose threw a teammate or coach under the bus to the media? Has it ever happened? MVP Rose never did that. Current Rose doesn't do that. So why should Jimmy be allowed to? He's acting like a diva in post game interviews with his brutally honest approach. It's not working.

His brother did it for him, worse, Rose wasn't even playing at the time, and good chance decided not to come back and play because of his teammates. That's throwing his team under the bus even worse than Butler.

[DarthDiggler69]

Regardless, when's the last time Rose threw a teammate or coach under the bus to the media? Has it ever happened? MVP Rose never did that. Current Rose doesn't do that. So why should Jimmy be allowed to? He's acting like a diva in post game interviews with his brutally honest approach. It's not working.

His brother did it for him, worse, Rose wasn't even playing at the time, and good chance decided not to come back and play because of his teammates. That's throwing his team under the bus even worse than Butler.

But the guy was coming back from major injury and it would have been during the playoffs, he'd be crazy to come back then and knowing how fragile Rose is he was probably right not to go

[Rerisen]

gasol is in his mid 30s and is going straight to hall of fame. no one has ever questioned his effort and passion and they won't start now.

Huh, Gasol's effort was questioned by Lakers fans every single season, and he was constantly brow beaten by Kobe to play harder, play tougher and more aggressive. When he finally did that, they won a title.

But I do not think Butler is talking about Gasol. He's played the same way his whole career and isn't going to change now. And is in decline anyway and couldn't do that much better no matter what his attitude is.

[DASMACKDOWN]

Regardless, when's the last time Rose threw a teammate or coach under the bus to the media? Has it ever happened? MVP Rose never did that. Current Rose doesn't do that. So why should Jimmy be allowed to? He's acting like a diva in post game interviews with his brutally honest approach. It's not working.

His brother did it for him, worse, Rose wasn't even playing at the time, and good chance decided not to come back and play because of his teammates. That's throwing his team under the bus even worse than Butler.

Yeah lets not forget that it was said by Ric Bucher that Team Rose said Rose was going to sit the season in like December. That was a calculated thing because Team Rose said the team wasn't good enough for Rose to rush back to. The comments about how the Heat had Bosh and Wade with LeBron. We only had Deng and Boozer.

So yeah Rose and Team Rose gave that team the ultimate F U that season.

[Trm3]

Sounds to me like Jimmy is more mad at his teammates than Fred. He's not complaining about subs or tactics, he's saying some guys aren't trying hard enough and they need to be called out.

I agree with this. Doesn't sound he's saying Hoiberg can't coach or the system is terrible but he wants Hoiberg to get on the players that aren't trying.

Also, I will say..since Butler wants to be the "Leader" then maybe he should say something to his teammates.

[DarthDiggler69]

gasol is in his mid 30s and is going straight to hall of fame. no one has ever questioned his effort and passion and they won't start now.

Huh, Gasol's effort was questioned by Lakers fans every single season, and he was constantly brow beaten by Kobe to play harder, play tougher and more aggressive. When he finally did that, they won a title.

But Kobe was was Pau's veteran and had rings, Kobe could say those things to Pau. I think our players are intimidated by Pau, he is the vet with rings now. Pau actually should be the leader but hes probably leaving so he doesnt care