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Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2

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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#601 » by WindyCityBorn » Wed May 19, 2021 8:31 pm

Wingy wrote:PSA: Jayson Tatum has a little kid too...doesn't seem to be holding him back.

Yeah, I know it's shared custody, and that has its pluses, but it also has its drawbacks.

Also, this isn't to bash Lauri. It's a jab at those blaming him having a kid as being some primary reason for him disappointing.


Plenty of these players have kids young. Not many getting married and start a traditional family though. I honestly think that changed Lauri as a person and that isn’t a bad thing overall, but I think it was for his basketball career.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#602 » by WindyCityBorn » Wed May 19, 2021 8:33 pm

ZOMG wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:On shots within 3 feet of the basket (basically layups and dunks), Lauri wasn't even good - he was only 12th on the Bulls in FG% from 0-3 feet.

He did get much better at catching and quickly shooting over guys 6 inches shorter than him when he got a mismatch down low because of a switch (or when playing SF), which is an improvement for sure, and he was very effective at it - but so what? Most 7-footers can punish most 6'6" guys down low.

He still isn't a very good finisher (homophone intended) when matched up against a big man down low. Nobody is double-teaming him in the low post, and the ability to draw double-teams is a huge part of being an effective low-post player.


The way he was able to punish smaller dudes after switches this season, teams absolutely should have doubled him. But he never got the ball in those situations with any consistency or frequency, so we didn't see that development.

Speaking of frequency... one thing this team has sucked at for all of Lauri's career is going back to the well. This may sound unbelievable, but I don't think I've ever seen the Bulls go straight back to Lauri after he's scored easily on some matchup where he clearly has an advantage. It's incredible, really. When Markkanen scores, you just know he's not getting the ball next time down the floor. Usually it's a ballhandler who takes the next shot. Zach in particular has always been guilty of this. He just can't let go of his instinctive your-turn-my-turn mentality. That's one reason he's not a playmaker.


Lmao at blaming Zach again for Lauri’s failure to develop. He didn’t seem to have any problems with Vuc getting a ton of shots up.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#603 » by CobyWhite0 » Wed May 19, 2021 8:41 pm

WindyCityBorn wrote:
Wingy wrote:PSA: Jayson Tatum has a little kid too...doesn't seem to be holding him back.

Yeah, I know it's shared custody, and that has its pluses, but it also has its drawbacks.

Also, this isn't to bash Lauri. It's a jab at those blaming him having a kid as being some primary reason for him disappointing.


Plenty of these players have kids young. Not many getting married and start a traditional family though. I honestly think that changed Lauri as a person and that isn’t a bad thing overall, but I think it was for his basketball career.


IDK, according to this study, it seems as if married players perform at a higher level than unmarried players.

And that there is a "marriage premium" (higher Efficiency) among international players, but not American players.

I just googled "what percentage of nba players are married", so take the study for what it's worth:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279931536_The_Marriage_Premium_and_Productivity_The_Case_of_NBA_Players#:~:text=A%20total%20marriage%20premium%20of,players%20compared%20to%20American%20players.

In this work, we focused on one of the explanations for the marriage wage premium for men - the effect of marriage on productivity. The analysis was performed using data on NBA players, workers whose productivity can be estimated directly by the efficiency index. In a general analysis of all players, a marriage premium in regard to productivity was found; married players are more efficient than single players. A more thorough analysis, distinguishing different populations, shows that there is a marriage premium among international players, but not among American players. This result sheds a different light on the relation between marriage and productivity. Marriage provides a framework, stability and a sense of responsibility, which is more important for international players joining a very competitive league in a foreign country with numerous challenges and travel demands. Therefore, marriage increases international players’ performance more significantly. Following these findings, it is reasonable to assume that the marriage wage premium will be higher among these populations. This explanation is different from the current, traditional explanations that marriage enables higher productivity through more working hours or specialization and education.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#604 » by Wingy » Wed May 19, 2021 8:42 pm

WindyCityBorn wrote:
Wingy wrote:PSA: Jayson Tatum has a little kid too...doesn't seem to be holding him back.

Yeah, I know it's shared custody, and that has its pluses, but it also has its drawbacks.

Also, this isn't to bash Lauri. It's a jab at those blaming him having a kid as being some primary reason for him disappointing.


Plenty of these players have kids young. Not many getting married and start a traditional family though. I honestly think that changed Lauri as a person and that isn’t a bad thing overall, but I think it was for his basketball career.


There’s still loads of time to work on his game. Lauri can easily spend 9 hours working on his game...hang with the fam til bedtime, and then work some more once the kid’s down. That’s life for millions.

Maybe it changed him, but the family didn’t take away his opportunity. I don’t necessarily think that’s what you’re saying either. I think you’re saying he re-prioritized life...but if that’s the case, he didn’t have the desire for the game anyway. So again, still not the family.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#605 » by WindyCityBorn » Wed May 19, 2021 8:45 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
the ultimates wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:But he got plenty of touches his first two years, and had a very low percentage of his FGs assisted for a player of his size and position. He absolutely can be a high touch focal point, because he's already done it.

Just because a player isn't asked to do something and follows the coach's instructions to a T, doesn't mean he's incapable of doing other things.

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The Bulls run one of the most free-flowing offenses in the league. The team is top 5 in assists per game. Nobody is telling Lauri just hang out by the three-point line.

Actually they are. That's literally his role in the offense, especially after the acquisition of Vuch. It was his role last year, too.

Again for his career, he takes over half of his shots from three with it being assisted on over 96% percent of the time.

False. Over his career, 51% of his shots are 2 pointers and 49% of them are 3 pointers. He's been as high as 58% of his shots being 2 pointers in 2018-19.

Teams don't make those types of players focal points of the offense. So his size being a three-point shooter is negated because he has to be fed an open look for that shot.

This is completely irrelevant. He's a 7 foot big. How many bigs in the entire league create a significant amount of their own looks from 3? A handful at most? That's not even a common trait amongst the elite, star big men. Asking/expecting/hoping for a 7 foot big to create their own looks from 3 is an unrealistic expectation.

Career assisted rate on 3 pointers:

Lauri - 98%

Vuch - 99%

AD - 97%

Jokic - 91%

KAT - 92%

Embiid - 92%

Bertans - 96%

Gallinari - 89%

Again, this is just not a realistic expectation for big men.

Looking at the assisted rate of 2 point shots is much more relevant for big men, and it's something Lauri has surprisingly ranked very high on given his size/position over his career up until this season where the offense was geared more toward spoon-feeding him looks. He was as low as 52% and 53% in 2018-19 and 2019-20, which compares favorably to even the elite big men. This year he was at 72%, which is an anomaly and reflects on the new offensive structure.

Tell me a team that's running a lot of offense through a player as limited as Lauri.

Prior to this season, Lauri's career 2 point and 3 point assisted rate was 57% and 98%, respectively. Let's compare that to the elite big men, so we can see which teams run their offense through players with similar assisted rates this season.

Vuch - 62% and 99%

AD - 58% and 96%

Jokic - 48% and 97%

KAT - 56% and 93%

Embiid - 43% and 88%

As we can see, Lauri is right in line with these guys. Lauri had "focal point" touches his first two years and those were his two most promising years.

2017-18: 15 and 8 in 30 MPG (18 and 9 Per 36) on 71.3 touches per game, 2nd most on the team

2018-19: 19 and 9 in 32 MPG (21 and 10 per 36) on 66.2 touches per game, 2nd most on the team

2019-20: 15 and 6 in 30 MPG (18 and 8 per 36) on 45.3 touches per game, 5th most on the team

2020-21: 14 and 5 in 26 MPG (19 and 7 per 36) on 35.5 touches per game, 8th most on the team

Is it really so far fetched to believe that if Lauri goes to a team where he plays 30+ MPG and receives 60+ touches per game he'll be capable of putting up 21-23 PPG and 8-10 RPG?


No. Not unless the team plays for sucks or he is playing his own Stockton/Nash. He couldn’t rebound here what is going change somewhere else?
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#606 » by CobyWhite0 » Wed May 19, 2021 9:15 pm

WindyCityBorn wrote:Lmao at blaming Zach again for Lauri’s failure to develop. He didn’t seem to have any problems with Vuc getting a ton of shots up.


I mean this as a compliment, but way to state the blatantly obvious. :D

Zach and Vuc played 13 games together.

Zach had 261 FGA in those 13 games.

Vuc had 254 FGA in those 13 games.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#607 » by PaKii94 » Wed May 19, 2021 9:25 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:Lmao at blaming Zach again for Lauri’s failure to develop. He didn’t seem to have any problems with Vuc getting a ton of shots up.


I mean this as a compliment, but way to state the blatantly obvious. :D

Zach and Vuc played 13 games together.

Zach had 261 FGA in those 13 games.

Vuc had 254 FGA in those 13 games.


Zach so far on the bulls has been okay deferring to 2 total players so far:
1 - vuc, he came in with the "all-star" pedigree
2 - opj, after the trade deadline trade

He has never really deferred field goals/touches to Lauri... Except during the FebruLauri time where Lauri averaged 80 touches a game.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#608 » by WindyCityBorn » Wed May 19, 2021 9:43 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:Lmao at blaming Zach again for Lauri’s failure to develop. He didn’t seem to have any problems with Vuc getting a ton of shots up.


I mean this as a compliment, but way to state the blatantly obvious. :D

Zach and Vuc played 13 games together.

Zach had 261 FGA in those 13 games.

Vuc had 254 FGA in those 13 games.


Zach so far on the bulls has been okay deferring to 2 total players so far:
1 - vuc, he came in with the "all-star" pedigree
2 - opj, after the trade deadline trade

He has never really deferred field goals/touches to Lauri... Except during the FebruLauri time where Lauri averaged 80 touches a game.


So you are doubling down on him freezing Lauri out? Lauri was the second option for 3.5 years and couldn’t get it done. Period. He cannot create a shot so he had to be spoon fed everything. Zach is no great facilitator by any means that really isn’t his job although right at 5 asts per game is very respectable for SG.

Hopefully Popovich system makes him the all-star you seem to think he is entitled to be. Referring to that one February is also hilarious. That was clearly an outlier and not something he is capable of sustaining or he would done it by now. Niko had stretches like that too. Niko was also better than Lauri...
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#609 » by PaKii94 » Wed May 19, 2021 10:04 pm

WindyCityBorn wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
I mean this as a compliment, but way to state the blatantly obvious. :D

Zach and Vuc played 13 games together.

Zach had 261 FGA in those 13 games.

Vuc had 254 FGA in those 13 games.


Zach so far on the bulls has been okay deferring to 2 total players so far:
1 - vuc, he came in with the "all-star" pedigree
2 - opj, after the trade deadline trade

He has never really deferred field goals/touches to Lauri... Except during the FebruLauri time where Lauri averaged 80 touches a game.


So you are doubling down on him freezing Lauri out? Lauri was the second option for 3.5 years and couldn’t get it done. Period. He cannot create a shot so he had to be spoon fed everything. Zach is no great facilitator by any means that really isn’t his job although right at 5 asts per game is very respectable for SG.


Not really I didn't really put much on Zach when it comes to Lauri. It's more Zach's impact on the game in general that I had issues with. Up until this year Zach was at most a neutral player but at high volume. He did improve greatly at decision making this year so I hope he continues to improve in that regards when he matures.

The only thing I am trying to dispute is the claim that Lauri was the defacto #2 for 2.5 years and couldn't get it done. When he got the touches of a focal point a la #2, he produced. But he pretty much never got those opportunities past FebruLauri. There are a lot of things you can put this towards. And Lauri definitely gets part of that blame.

1) no real playmaker guard for Lauri's career so far. We acknowledge Lavine ain't it in that regards but he was the lead playmaker for the last two years. Then you add Coby who is that much worse (besides that last stretch of games)

2) we know about Lauri's short comings at rim protecting at the 5. Rolo complemented him well by deferring to Lauri and doing the other garbage work. WCJ wasn't doing that. And then add into the fact that wcj failed as a high post playmaker (adding to #1 above)

3) the rarity of the Lavine/Lauri pnr. When they tried it it was usually lethal. But they rarely tried it. Unfortunately I think that's because like others have said. Usually we have a lane clogging big next to him. In the team sense Lauri's shooting becomes that much more valuable vs his rim play.

That's why I was hopeful with the Vuc pickup. With Lauri/vuc spacing the floor the lane should in theory be wide open and we could finally see some more Lavine/Lauri PnR. Alas.

4) where Lauri is at fault is he hasn't shown the "alpha" in him. He has the talent to be a #2 AND there was a void at #2 for the team. He could have forced the issue. Instead he wanted to be a team player a la a floor spacing roleplayer.

The closest he's come to show some fire these past two years is his last few interviews where he actually puts out he wants to be a focal point and believes he's a starter. Maybe getting a contract will light a fire in him to perform up to that contract. Or maybe that alpha never develops and Lauri continues to be a role player. That's on him.

Which unfortunately brings us to the side note of I get Lauri vibes from PWill. He has the talent to be a really really good player but he seems content on being a team player role player right now. Even rookie Lauri showed more fire.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#610 » by PaKii94 » Wed May 19, 2021 10:10 pm

WindyCityBorn wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
I mean this as a compliment, but way to state the blatantly obvious. :D

Zach and Vuc played 13 games together.

Zach had 261 FGA in those 13 games.

Vuc had 254 FGA in those 13 games.


Zach so far on the bulls has been okay deferring to 2 total players so far:
1 - vuc, he came in with the "all-star" pedigree
2 - opj, after the trade deadline trade

He has never really deferred field goals/touches to Lauri... Except during the FebruLauri time where Lauri averaged 80 touches a game.



Hopefully Popovich system makes him the all-star you seem to think he is entitled to be. Referring to that one February is also hilarious. That was clearly an outlier and not something he is capable of sustaining or he would done it by now. Niko had stretches like that too. Niko was also better than Lauri...



There is two ways you can classify something like that as an outlier when it comes to data analysis.

1- he's getting the usual low #4 touches but producing because of extreme efficiency like the shooting at the end of his rookie season or the start to this season where he as putting up 20ppg @65TS on #4 option touches.

2- he's getting #1-#2 touches for his career (80 touches a game like FebruLauri) but only produced big numbers on decent efficiency for 1 month. That's when you can make a decision that he's not worth being a focal point.

Instead that month is part of the trend. Give him more touches and he produces more (and usually on better efficiency). That month just shows his potential peak if you maximize his touches. And that's with subpar shooting (it wasn't a hot shooting month)
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#611 » by CobyWhite0 » Wed May 19, 2021 10:14 pm

WindyCityBorn wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
I mean this as a compliment, but way to state the blatantly obvious. :D

Zach and Vuc played 13 games together.

Zach had 261 FGA in those 13 games.

Vuc had 254 FGA in those 13 games.


Zach so far on the bulls has been okay deferring to 2 total players so far:
1 - vuc, he came in with the "all-star" pedigree
2 - opj, after the trade deadline trade

He has never really deferred field goals/touches to Lauri... Except during the FebruLauri time where Lauri averaged 80 touches a game.


So you are doubling down on him freezing Lauri out? Lauri was the second option for 3.5 years and couldn’t get it done. Period. He cannot create a shot so he had to be spoon fed everything. Zach is no great facilitator by any means that really isn’t his job although right at 5 asts per game is very respectable for SG.

Hopefully Popovich system makes him the all-star you seem to think he is entitled to be. Referring to that one February is also hilarious. That was clearly an outlier and not something he is capable of sustaining or he would done it by now. Niko had stretches like that too. Niko was also better than Lauri...


Maybe we should see if Sean Kilpatrick is still available? He's been out of the league since his Marchpatrick 2018 with the Bulls:

9 games
23.8 min
15.4 pts
23.4 pts/36 (FebruLauri was at 25.8)
39.6% 3pt (5.2 att)
17.7 PER
.574 TS%
1.3 BPM (2nd on the team to JanNiko FebruTic)

He's only 31yo, surely he has a few good years left?
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#612 » by PaKii94 » Wed May 19, 2021 10:20 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
Zach so far on the bulls has been okay deferring to 2 total players so far:
1 - vuc, he came in with the "all-star" pedigree
2 - opj, after the trade deadline trade

He has never really deferred field goals/touches to Lauri... Except during the FebruLauri time where Lauri averaged 80 touches a game.


So you are doubling down on him freezing Lauri out? Lauri was the second option for 3.5 years and couldn’t get it done. Period. He cannot create a shot so he had to be spoon fed everything. Zach is no great facilitator by any means that really isn’t his job although right at 5 asts per game is very respectable for SG.



Hopefully Popovich system makes him the all-star you seem to think he is entitled to be. Referring to that one February is also hilarious. That was clearly an outlier and not something he is capable of sustaining or he would done it by now. Niko had stretches like that too. Niko was also better than Lauri...


Maybe we should see if Sean Kilpatrick is still available? He's been out of the league since his Marchpatrick 2018 with the Bulls:

9 games
23.8 min
15.4 pts
23.4 pts/36 (FebruLauri was at 25.8)
39.6% 3pt (5.2 att)
17.7 PER
.574 TS%
1.3 BPM (2nd on the team to JanNiko FebruTic)

He's only 31yo, surely he has a few good years left?


Kilpatrick and Niko are good examples of the outlier situation I described above.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#613 » by WindyCityBorn » Wed May 19, 2021 10:27 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
Zach so far on the bulls has been okay deferring to 2 total players so far:
1 - vuc, he came in with the "all-star" pedigree
2 - opj, after the trade deadline trade

He has never really deferred field goals/touches to Lauri... Except during the FebruLauri time where Lauri averaged 80 touches a game.



Hopefully Popovich system makes him the all-star you seem to think he is entitled to be. Referring to that one February is also hilarious. That was clearly an outlier and not something he is capable of sustaining or he would done it by now. Niko had stretches like that too. Niko was also better than Lauri...



There is two ways you can classify something like that as an outlier when it comes to data analysis.

1- he's getting the usual low #4 touches but producing because of extreme efficiency like the shooting at the end of his rookie season or the start to this season where he as putting up 20ppg @65TS on #4 option touches.

2- he's getting #1-#2 touches for his career (80 touches a game like FebruLauri) but only produced big numbers on decent efficiency for 1 month. That's when you can make a decision that he's not worth being a focal point.

Instead that month is part of the trend. Give him more touches and he produces more (and usually on better efficiency). That month just shows his potential peak if you maximize his touches. And that's with subpar shooting (it wasn't a hot shooting month)



Who was stopping Lauri from getting touches? Our starting lineup at one point was Thad/Lauri/Pwill/Sato/Zach. Zach averages less than 20 shots a game. Who was preventing Lauri from getting up 15+ shots? PWill and and Sato barely shoot and Thad is low volume too. Coby jacking up shots wasn’t an issue anymore. Was it Donovan’s fault? AK for trying to lower his value? Does Lauri have to take responsibility at all?
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#614 » by WindyCityBorn » Wed May 19, 2021 10:29 pm

CobyWhite0 wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:
Zach so far on the bulls has been okay deferring to 2 total players so far:
1 - vuc, he came in with the "all-star" pedigree
2 - opj, after the trade deadline trade

He has never really deferred field goals/touches to Lauri... Except during the FebruLauri time where Lauri averaged 80 touches a game.


So you are doubling down on him freezing Lauri out? Lauri was the second option for 3.5 years and couldn’t get it done. Period. He cannot create a shot so he had to be spoon fed everything. Zach is no great facilitator by any means that really isn’t his job although right at 5 asts per game is very respectable for SG.

Hopefully Popovich system makes him the all-star you seem to think he is entitled to be. Referring to that one February is also hilarious. That was clearly an outlier and not something he is capable of sustaining or he would done it by now. Niko had stretches like that too. Niko was also better than Lauri...


Maybe we should see if Sean Kilpatrick is still available? He's been out of the league since his Marchpatrick 2018 with the Bulls:

9 games
23.8 min
15.4 pts
23.4 pts/36 (FebruLauri was at 25.8)
39.6% 3pt (5.2 att)
17.7 PER
.574 TS%
1.3 BPM (2nd on the team to JanNiko FebruTic)

He's only 31yo, surely he has a few good years left?


When you have to use month and guy has been in the league for 4 years that says it all.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#615 » by 2018C3 » Wed May 19, 2021 10:53 pm

I'm pretty much done with the Lauri experiment. I would be perfectly fine if we could move him for another asset. I would feel different if he was a lock down defender, but he is not. He just does not fit with what is needed on this team.

He has not shown the growth curve I like to see in a essential part.

(Points / Steals/ Blocks / Assists / Rebounds / Free Through Percentage). They have all declined.

Seriously, how in the hell can you get worse at free throws in your early 20's?

This is not what I like to see in a 23 year old guy who has been on the team now for three seasons. If we cant move him, I'd even be okay letting him walk once the contract is up.

I'd much prefer trading him this year for another guy who has struggled, and give both a new opportunity in a different organization.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#616 » by CobyWhite0 » Wed May 19, 2021 11:43 pm

WindyCityBorn wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
So you are doubling down on him freezing Lauri out? Lauri was the second option for 3.5 years and couldn’t get it done. Period. He cannot create a shot so he had to be spoon fed everything. Zach is no great facilitator by any means that really isn’t his job although right at 5 asts per game is very respectable for SG.

Hopefully Popovich system makes him the all-star you seem to think he is entitled to be. Referring to that one February is also hilarious. That was clearly an outlier and not something he is capable of sustaining or he would done it by now. Niko had stretches like that too. Niko was also better than Lauri...


Maybe we should see if Sean Kilpatrick is still available? He's been out of the league since his Marchpatrick 2018 with the Bulls:

9 games
23.8 min
15.4 pts
23.4 pts/36 (FebruLauri was at 25.8)
39.6% 3pt (5.2 att)
17.7 PER
.574 TS%
1.3 BPM (2nd on the team to JanNiko FebruTic)

He's only 31yo, surely he has a few good years left?


When you have to use month and guy has been in the league for 4 years that says it all.


Using logic, I'd agree 100% with the bolded, because it seems to be blatantly obvious.

Using what I've read in the 131 pages of this thread, apparently it just ain't so.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#617 » by dougthonus » Thu May 20, 2021 12:16 am

PaKii94 wrote:There is two ways you can classify something like that as an outlier when it comes to data analysis.

1- he's getting the usual low #4 touches but producing because of extreme efficiency like the shooting at the end of his rookie season or the start to this season where he as putting up 20ppg @65TS on #4 option touches.

2- he's getting #1-#2 touches for his career (80 touches a game like FebruLauri) but only produced big numbers on decent efficiency for 1 month. That's when you can make a decision that he's not worth being a focal point.

Instead that month is part of the trend. Give him more touches and he produces more (and usually on better efficiency). That month just shows his potential peak if you maximize his touches. And that's with subpar shooting (it wasn't a hot shooting month)


There is a third way.

You could watch Lauri Markkanen play and take inventory of his skills:
1: Attacking close outs
2: Shooting wide open jump shots

And his lack of skills:
1: Court vision
2: Post moves
3: Ball handling
4: Shot creation
5: Shooting contested shots
6: Shooting step back shots
7: Shooting shots coming off screens and moving

Then you could think about how a player with such strengths might look good and come to the conclusion that it is when other players do the majority of the work to set him up for good opportunities and that those can likely be taken away fairly trivially by the defense with a little bit of focus.

Upon understanding that not all touches / shots are equal nor can all touches / shots be created at will but are also a function of the opposing defense and what they allow, it becomes fairly obvious why letting Lauri touch the ball 100 more times a game wouldn't give you improved team offense and why while his touches per game were at a career low this year, it was the only year of his career that he was actually an efficient offensive player.
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#618 » by E-DC » Thu May 20, 2021 12:57 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
So you are doubling down on him freezing Lauri out? Lauri was the second option for 3.5 years and couldn’t get it done. Period. He cannot create a shot so he had to be spoon fed everything. Zach is no great facilitator by any means that really isn’t his job although right at 5 asts per game is very respectable for SG.

Hopefully Popovich system makes him the all-star you seem to think he is entitled to be. Referring to that one February is also hilarious. That was clearly an outlier and not something he is capable of sustaining or he would done it by now. Niko had stretches like that too. Niko was also better than Lauri...


Maybe we should see if Sean Kilpatrick is still available? He's been out of the league since his Marchpatrick 2018 with the Bulls:

9 games
23.8 min
15.4 pts
23.4 pts/36 (FebruLauri was at 25.8)
39.6% 3pt (5.2 att)
17.7 PER
.574 TS%
1.3 BPM (2nd on the team to JanNiko FebruTic)

He's only 31yo, surely he has a few good years left?


When you have to use month and guy has been in the league for 4 years that says it all.

Ugh, this is one lazy "reasoning".

1st Season:
A stretch of 12 games with a 122-113 ORTG-DRTG | 19 PPG 8 RPG .500 FG% .459 3P%
A stretch of 13 games with a 117-111 ORTG-DRTG | 17 PPG 7 RPG .478 FG% .441 3P%

2nd Season:
A stretch of 17 games with a 106-113 ORTG-DRTG | 18 PPG 7 RPG .460 FG% .404 3P% (The 17 games before the hot stretch)
A stretch of 14 games with a 121-113 ORTG-DRTG | 25 PPG 13 RPG .463 FG% .362 3P%

3rd Season:
A stretch of 20 games with a 119-110 ORTG-DRTG | 17 PPG 6 RPG .488 FG% .405 3P%

4th Season:
A stretch of 18 games with a 115-111 ORTG-DRTG | 19 PPG 6 RPG .508 FG% .412 3P%
A stretch of 14 games with a 116-110 ORTG-DRTG | 11 PPG 5 RPG .487 FG% .453 3P%

In addition, Lauri's hot stretches were often cut short due to freak injuries or occurrences (the heart thing and COVID protocol).

Oh, and Kilpatrick's 9 game stretch that for some reason you think was significant, resulted in an ORTG-DRTG of 107-112
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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#619 » by CobyWhite0 » Thu May 20, 2021 12:58 am

dougthonus wrote:
PaKii94 wrote:There is two ways you can classify something like that as an outlier when it comes to data analysis.

1- he's getting the usual low #4 touches but producing because of extreme efficiency like the shooting at the end of his rookie season or the start to this season where he as putting up 20ppg @65TS on #4 option touches.

2- he's getting #1-#2 touches for his career (80 touches a game like FebruLauri) but only produced big numbers on decent efficiency for 1 month. That's when you can make a decision that he's not worth being a focal point.

Instead that month is part of the trend. Give him more touches and he produces more (and usually on better efficiency). That month just shows his potential peak if you maximize his touches. And that's with subpar shooting (it wasn't a hot shooting month)


There is a third way.

You could watch Lauri Markkanen play and take inventory of his skills:
1: Attacking close outs
2: Shooting wide open jump shots

And his lack of skills:
1: Court vision
2: Post moves
3: Ball handling
4: Shot creation
5: Shooting contested shots
6: Shooting step back shots
7: Shooting shots coming off screens and moving

Then you could think about how a player with such strengths might look good and come to the conclusion that it is when other players do the majority of the work to set him up for good opportunities and that those can likely be taken away fairly trivially by the defense with a little bit of focus.

Upon understanding that not all touches / shots are equal nor can all touches / shots be created at will but are also a function of the opposing defense and what they allow, it becomes fairly obvious why letting Lauri touch the ball 100 more times a game wouldn't give you improved team offense and why while his touches per game were at a career low this year, it was the only year of his career that he was actually an efficient offensive player.


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Re: Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2 

Post#620 » by WindyCityBorn » Thu May 20, 2021 1:14 am

E-DC wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
CobyWhite0 wrote:
Maybe we should see if Sean Kilpatrick is still available? He's been out of the league since his Marchpatrick 2018 with the Bulls:

9 games
23.8 min
15.4 pts
23.4 pts/36 (FebruLauri was at 25.8)
39.6% 3pt (5.2 att)
17.7 PER
.574 TS%
1.3 BPM (2nd on the team to JanNiko FebruTic)

He's only 31yo, surely he has a few good years left?


When you have to use month and guy has been in the league for 4 years that says it all.

Ugh, this is one lazy "reasoning".

1st Season:
A stretch of 12 games with a 122-113 ORTG-DRTG | 19 PPG 8 RPG .500 FG% .459 3P%
A stretch of 13 games with a 117-111 ORTG-DRTG | 17 PPG 7 RPG .478 FG% .441 3P%

2nd Season:
A stretch of 17 games with a 106-113 ORTG-DRTG | 18 PPG 7 RPG .460 FG% .404 3P% (The 17 games before the hot stretch)
A stretch of 14 games with a 121-113 ORTG-DRTG | 25 PPG 13 RPG .463 FG% .362 3P%

3rd Season:
A stretch of 20 games with a 119-110 ORTG-DRTG | 17 PPG 6 RPG .488 FG% .405 3P%

4th Season:
A stretch of 18 games with a 115-111 ORTG-DRTG | 19 PPG 6 RPG .508 FG% .412 3P%
A stretch of 14 games with a 116-110 ORTG-DRTG | 11 PPG 5 RPG .487 FG% .453 3P%

In addition, Lauri's hot stretches were often cut short due to freak injuries or occurrences (the heart thing and COVID protocol).

Oh, and Kilpatrick's 9 game stretch that for some reason you think was significant, resulted in an ORTG-DRTG of 107-112



Cannot wait to see the excuses being made for him on his new team. Actually no I won’t care at all. Won’t be a Bulls fan’s problem anymore.

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