Had Derrick Rose never tore ACL in 2012 ...

[Am2626]

Tough to say for sure. Miami would probably still be favored in the ECF, though it would be much closer than 2011. Asik was healthy, Hamilton was a big upgrade, and Rose was smarter. A rookie Butler off the bench would have been thrown in to guard Lebron and Wade.
I don't think the Thunder were a good match up against Chicago. Interestingly enough, a lot of 2k simulations had the Bulls winning it all had Rose stayed healthy.

Even at full health, I don't think the 2012 Bulls beat the Heat, but it would have been fun to watch.

As it was, even if Rose did remain healthy...Noah was not. That ankle sprain in the first round was rough, and when he tried to come back and play on it he was getting outplayed/outrebounded by Iguodala. Noah was integral to that 2012 team and with him hobbled I don't see any chance the Bulls would have given the Heat much of a problem.

Does Noah’s ankle sprain even happen if Rose doesn’t get hurt? Every play and makeup of every game changes if Rose is playing. At full strength that Bulls team with Home Court Advantage could beat the Heat. They learned a lot from the prior year losing to the Heat.

[TheStig]

I don't really think that was a really strong title team with Rose. They weren't the Heat or the Warriors or Spurs. But I do think they break through and get it done in 2015. The Warriors weren't at their peak and Love was injured early and irving in the ECF. Our front court was really deep, Jimmy was entering his own and a full healthy Rose puts them over the top.

Yes..that team had 2 playmakers/shot creators. That's pretty important in the playoffs. The 2012 team never had the offensive creativity other than Thibs scheming or Rose creating. Rip was ridimg his Detroit achievement and was done/never was the 2nd creator. The Heat always had Lebron and Wade.

The Bulls always would have been a tough out and you never know how injuries play out. Wade would be more banged up defending a healthy Bulls team.

I'm sorry, I just don't see them getting past the 3 stars of the Heat. Rip wasn't great here and did nothing after. I can't see him putting us over the top. Don't forget they started adding Battier and Allen. Jimmy didn't breakout till 2014-2015. Those teams just had no fire power. Rose was bound to get beat up and tired having to go to the basket so much and taking all that contact. I think he continues to run out of gas against the heat.

Still would have been a hard out. Same like the Pacers. But I don't think we beat them till he gets to Clevland and the cast really falls apart. I think we got a really good shot in 2015 of winning everything and a good shot at coming out of the East in 2018 depending on what they do with the front court. They'd have to add someone to Mirotic considering Taj, Noah and Gasol are non existent. To me, it ends up being like the Mavs. One title, lots of good records and playoffs but they were never a really great team. Those teams also lacked shooting outside of Korver or MDJ. I think Niko helps but it's not really enough to spread the floor.

[Am2626]

In 2012, Miami was probably at their peak, we weren't going to win. In 2014 when we had a Jimmy Butler whom just broke out and a superstar in Derrick Rose and Wade/Bosh started falling off, we would have likely gotten past MIami and the question is whether we could have toppled a fairly elite spurs team.

People say that 2012 team still doesn't beat Miami, but an old Celtics team past their prime took Miami to 7 games. I definitely would have liked their odds to get to the finals with a healthy Rose and Noah considering they were just better than the Celtics.

Just to note, Jimmy broke out after LeBron left Miami. It was the year they played the LeBron cavs team in the playoffs and lost in 6. Thibs final year. I do think the Bulls with a fully healthy Drose gets past that Cavs team though (who were without Love and Kyrie was playing hurt). Beating the Warriors is a different question. Bulls vs Warriors would be interssting with the contrasting style with their lead guards. Jimmy/Rose slashers and Curry/Klay shooters.

People are also saying that they beat the Heat but not OKC... which is somewhat tough to understand


Ultimately though Rose gets injured, I think that was inevitable. It was a concern before he got hurt because of how he played.

A fair question is if we kept Rose and Butler are we are contender this past year?

I think the reason why it would be easier to beat the Heat and not OKC is because of the experience they went through the prior year and also the match up. Rose had a clear advantage over the Heat that he would not have had against OKC with Westbrook.

Regarding Rose blowing out his knee yeah it’s probably inevitable but it’s still a freak non contact injury. A lot of things would have to line up for an injury like that to happen. Maybe it doesn’t happen for 2 more years. Who knows. The longer we got to see that version of Rose the better it would have been. What makes it even harder to accept is that he didn’t have to be in the game at that time. He should have been on more restrictions with him dealing with various injuries all season. The game was already decided when he got hurt. I’m a big Thibs supporter but overworking his players has to be his biggest shortfall as a coach.

[prolific passer]

2012 finals would have been anybody's game and probably pretty sloppy with 2 first timers making it. I think the bulls would have won due to Thibs finals experience as a coach. Deng vs Durant would have been fun to watch.

[dice]

How often does this topic pop up?

Why do Bulls fans torture themselves with this what if?

sure beats torturing ourselves by watching the current model and asking the same question in a forward-looking manner

Not everyone shares the same doom and gloom outlook on the Bulls future.

many people would prefer to think about that team than this one. either way, all we have right now is "what if"

[dice]

Tough to say for sure. Miami would probably still be favored in the ECF, though it would be much closer than 2011. Asik was healthy, Hamilton was a big upgrade, and Rose was smarter. A rookie Butler off the bench would have been thrown in to guard Lebron and Wade.

rip hamilton was worse here than bogans...on both ends of the floor. and garpax should have seen that one a mile away. dumars did, just as he did with ben wallace

That's a stretch. Bogans 2011 vs Hamilton 2012, you could say bogans was better as a man defender and a slightly bigger threat from 3, that's it. Hamilton was a better scorer, better off the ball, better at the free line, better rebounder, better passer, etc. You really think a guy contributing 4pts a game was better?

-hamilton was most certainly not a better scorer. because his efficiency was in the toilet. running a play for him was destructive to the offense

-he was not a better passer: he gave us 1.6 assists/36 more, but also 1.7 TO/36 more. not beneficial

-bogans got more rebounds per minute

as for "better off the ball"...i don't even know what that means

and that's not even considering that rip was only able to play in about half the games when he was here

[PhilLeotardo]

So many deluded takes lol. That team was never getting to the finals, no matter what. They always had a low ceiling & were overachieving. No team under PaxGar was ever going to experienced sustained success because no major pieces ever wanted to work under them, plain & simple

Lol Rose’s stats were actually down almost across the board over the 29 games or whatever it was prior to him tearing his ACL. I believe the only categories where his stats spiked were rebounds & 3p% (just because he was chucking up more of them). He was what he was: a low IQ combo guard who couldn’t shoot, didn’t have good vision, and was a poor defender. I don’t see where or how he would’ve gotten THAT much better. He’s cleaned some things up over the years, but he’s still the same dude he’s always been

While his MVP season was exciting, it’s pretty inarguably the most hilariously undeserved MVP award they’ve ever given out, and was only done because the NBA were so desperate for Chicago to get back on top (they eventually gave up trying to help the Bulls once it became apparent that Jerry was never going to fire PaxGar). Everyone knows LBJ was the MVP that season. And whaddya know: Rose goes down, and the team still wins like 50 games LOL! Typically, when an “mvp” goes down, his team falls of a cliff. Hence the “most valuable” thing, ya know? Just sayin. Bulls were still essentially the same team, just didn’t have anyone who could get his own shot. Everyone knows Thibs & his defensive schemes were the MVPs of those squads

All in all, I think it could be said that Rose is the most overrated player of the modern era. He had ONE great (overrated) season. That’s literally it. One season. Solid rookie campaign, pretty good sophomoric outing, his “MVP” year, and then that was it. Mediocrity-to-downright poor from there on out

It’s also comical how much people talk about his little acl tear or whatever. Lol lots of guys tear ACLs & bounce back just fine eventually. You’d think the guy got his leg amputated by the way people refer to that injury. The guy has crap knees, always. Combine that with the fact that his ceiling wasn’t going to get much higher (where? How? At what?), and not a whole lot would have been different had he never torn it

You know a fan base is in dire straits & has been decimated by toxic ownership when they’re still reminiscing about a guy who had ONE (ONE!) great season a decade ago

[TheGOATRises007]

So many deluded takes lol. That team was never getting to the finals, no matter what. They always had a low ceiling & were overachieving. No team under PaxGar was ever going to experienced sustained success because no major pieces ever wanted to work under them, plain & simple

Lol Rose’s stats were actually down almost across the board over the 29 games or whatever it was prior to him tearing his ACL. I believe the only categories where his stats spiked were rebounds & 3p% (just because he was chucking up more of them). He was what he was: a low IQ combo guard who couldn’t shoot, didn’t have good vision, and was a poor defender. I don’t see where or how he would’ve gotten THAT much better. He’s cleaned some things up over the years, but he’s still the same dude he’s always been

While his MVP season was exciting, it’s pretty inarguably the most hilariously undeserved MVP award they’ve ever given out, and was only done because the NBA were so desperate for Chicago to get back on top (they eventually gave up trying to help the Bulls once it became apparent that Jerry was never going to fire PaxGar). Everyone knows LBJ was the MVP that season. And whaddya know: Rose goes down, and the team still wins like 50 games LOL! Typically, when an “mvp” goes down, his team falls of a cliff. Hence the “most valuable” thing, ya know? Just sayin. Bulls were still essentially the same team, just didn’t have anyone who could get his own shot. Everyone knows Thibs & his defensive schemes were the MVPs of those squads

All in all, I think it could be said that Rose is the most overrated player of the modern era. He had ONE great (overrated) season. That’s literally it. One season. Solid rookie campaign, pretty good sophomoric outing, his “MVP” year, and then that was it. Mediocrity-to-downright poor from there on out

It’s also comical how much people talk about his little acl tear or whatever. Lol lots of guys tear ACLs & bounce back just fine eventually. You’d think the guy got his leg amputated by the way people refer to that injury. The guy has crap knees, always. Combine that with the fact that his ceiling wasn’t going to get much higher (where? How? At what?), and not a whole lot would have been different had he never torn it

You know a fan base is in dire straits & has been decimated by toxic ownership when they’re still reminiscing about a guy who had ONE (ONE!) great season a decade ago

[dice]

So many deluded takes lol. That team was never getting to the finals, no matter what. They always had a low ceiling & were overachieving. No team under PaxGar was ever going to experienced sustained success because no major pieces ever wanted to work under them, plain & simple

Lol Rose’s stats were actually down almost across the board over the 29 games or whatever it was prior to him tearing his ACL. I believe the only categories where his stats spiked were rebounds & 3p% (just because he was chucking up more of them). He was what he was: a low IQ combo guard who couldn’t shoot, didn’t have good vision, and was a poor defender. I don’t see where or how he would’ve gotten THAT much better. He’s cleaned some things up over the years, but he’s still the same dude he’s always been

While his MVP season was exciting, it’s pretty inarguably the most hilariously undeserved MVP award they’ve ever given out, and was only done because the NBA were so desperate for Chicago to get back on top (they eventually gave up trying to help the Bulls once it became apparent that Jerry was never going to fire PaxGar). Everyone knows LBJ was the MVP that season. And whaddya know: Rose goes down, and the team still wins like 50 games LOL! Typically, when an “mvp” goes down, his team falls of a cliff. Hence the “most valuable” thing, ya know? Just sayin. Bulls were still essentially the same team, just didn’t have anyone who could get his own shot. Everyone knows Thibs & his defensive schemes were the MVPs of those squads

All in all, I think it could be said that Rose is the most overrated player of the modern era. He had ONE great (overrated) season. That’s literally it. One season. Solid rookie campaign, pretty good sophomoric outing, his “MVP” year, and then that was it. Mediocrity-to-downright poor from there on out

It’s also comical how much people talk about his little acl tear or whatever. Lol lots of guys tear ACLs & bounce back just fine eventually. You’d think the guy got his leg amputated by the way people refer to that injury. The guy has crap knees, always. Combine that with the fact that his ceiling wasn’t going to get much higher (where? How? At what?), and not a whole lot would have been different had he never torn it

You know a fan base is in dire straits & has been decimated by toxic ownership when they’re still reminiscing about a guy who had ONE (ONE!) great season a decade ago

literally (the correct use of the term, unlike yours) almost every sentence here is sheer nonsense. i don't think it's a coincidence that the post is also littered with 'lol's

just at random i'll respond to a few points:

-the last sentence...we're not reminiscing about derrick's one great season. we're speculating about what would have happened had injury not ruined his career, thus preventing MORE great seasons. it's right in the damn thread title!

-the stats presented on derrick's MVP followup season are way off. he was nearly as good that season prior to the ACL

-know what other MVP didn't have his team fall off the cliff when he was out? michael damn jordan

-"thibs and his defensive schemes" have never been the MVP of any team. the celtics had great defensive personnel as did the bulls. the wolves didn't and had terrible defenses under thibs

-if rose was "the most overrated player of the modern era" he'd be a shoo-in for the HOF as the youngest MVP ever whose career was sabotaged by injury. but he's not, because his career is viewed appropriately as a shooting star that fizzled

i don't feel like continuing. shame you didn't feel the same way early on in your weird, misguided rant

[prolific passer]

Sad that some still haven't gotten over Rose's mvp award. Some people even elevate those kind of things over championships which is even more sad.

[Southpaw]

I've always felt like if Rose hadn't gotten injured. the 7th banner would be hanging in the in the UC right now.

[troza]

While his MVP season was exciting, it’s pretty inarguably the most hilariously undeserved MVP award they’ve ever given out, and was only done because the NBA were so desperate for Chicago to get back on top (they eventually gave up trying to help the Bulls once it became apparent that Jerry was never going to fire PaxGar). Everyone knows LBJ was the MVP that season.

People like to re-write story? Lebron's stats in 2010/2011 were down from previous year, playing with Wade (that was at his level) and Bosh and got less wins than previous years with the Cavs (with a team that people keep saying that it was horrible and so). Rose's rise to a legit star took the Bulls to the #1 seed with a lot less than Lebron.

We can discuss that he didn't deserve the MVP but surely Lebron wasn't the one deserving.

This is like saying that Lebron to the Heat wasn't the same as Durant to the Warriors... people like to somehow change history as it happened. People expected greatness. People expected the title. People expected record breaking performances by those Heat. And if you say they needed time, the Celtics in 08 showed that there was no time needed with a worse big 3.


About the Bulls in 2012... I don't know if we would be able to beat the Heat. They didn't have Allen yet but, as always, had good players besides the big 3. But we would have a better chance than in 2011 if no other injuries were there. This is before the GSW turned the NBA into 3 point or nothing land and we had a good roster to fight teams old school. I still believe that we didn't have enough fire power for them when they had Lebron, Wade and Bosh...

And for people confused by people saying that we would beat the Heat and not OKC... I can see a reason for that, as OKC lost game 2 due to a non-call on Lebron. Of course that wasn't a guaranteed win (overtime would be more fair) but they were already pretty good. On the other hand, what counts is what happened and the Heat were better anyway so I'm also on the side of the ones that do not understand this.

[Am2626]

So many deluded takes lol. That team was never getting to the finals, no matter what. They always had a low ceiling & were overachieving. No team under PaxGar was ever going to experienced sustained success because no major pieces ever wanted to work under them, plain & simple

Lol Rose’s stats were actually down almost across the board over the 29 games or whatever it was prior to him tearing his ACL. I believe the only categories where his stats spiked were rebounds & 3p% (just because he was chucking up more of them). He was what he was: a low IQ combo guard who couldn’t shoot, didn’t have good vision, and was a poor defender. I don’t see where or how he would’ve gotten THAT much better. He’s cleaned some things up over the years, but he’s still the same dude he’s always been

While his MVP season was exciting, it’s pretty inarguably the most hilariously undeserved MVP award they’ve ever given out, and was only done because the NBA were so desperate for Chicago to get back on top (they eventually gave up trying to help the Bulls once it became apparent that Jerry was never going to fire PaxGar). Everyone knows LBJ was the MVP that season. And whaddya know: Rose goes down, and the team still wins like 50 games LOL! Typically, when an “mvp” goes down, his team falls of a cliff. Hence the “most valuable” thing, ya know? Just sayin. Bulls were still essentially the same team, just didn’t have anyone who could get his own shot. Everyone knows Thibs & his defensive schemes were the MVPs of those squads

All in all, I think it could be said that Rose is the most overrated player of the modern era. He had ONE great (overrated) season. That’s literally it. One season. Solid rookie campaign, pretty good sophomoric outing, his “MVP” year, and then that was it. Mediocrity-to-downright poor from there on out

It’s also comical how much people talk about his little acl tear or whatever. Lol lots of guys tear ACLs & bounce back just fine eventually. You’d think the guy got his leg amputated by the way people refer to that injury. The guy has crap knees, always. Combine that with the fact that his ceiling wasn’t going to get much higher (where? How? At what?), and not a whole lot would have been different had he never torn it

You know a fan base is in dire straits & has been decimated by toxic ownership when they’re still reminiscing about a guy who had ONE (ONE!) great season a decade ago

Remember in 1993 when the Bulls won 57 games and the following year when Jordan retired they won 55 games. Does the fact that the Bulls didn’t fall off the cliff devalue what Jordan did for the Bulls the prior year? Barkley won the MVP but everyone knows that it should have been Jordan.

[Daxel]

If...
Could...
Maybe...
Perhaps...
Should...

Time to finally move on from the era that never was and see what this new era brings.

[chefo]

The Bulls were designed to beat the Heatles... and it just happened to work against most other teams. The Bulls had 3(!) of the best defensive bigs in the NBA (Jo, Taj, Asik), 3 of the best wing defenders (Bogans, Ronnie and Luol), and 3 decent scorers in DRose, Luol and Carlos.

People kind of forget, but until Kwame injured Carlos with that bush-league move in March, he was playing like a legit all-star at 19&10, at like 55% FG and a net rating of +10. He was actually better than Bosh until that point. But after that injury, he was never the same player the rest of the season, and probably for the rest of his career. His scoring dropped off a cliff, so did his FG and on a +8 net team he dropped all the way back to net flat, which is almost impossible to pull off for a high minute starter. By the playoffs, early-season Carlos was gone, gone, with just a decent game here and there and a LOT of stinkers in between. He became scared of contact, lost his quickness and could barely get up.

For me it's more so what happens in 2011 if Carlos does not get injured. Neither Haslem nor Bosh could check a healthy, prime Carlos. If the Bulls had pre-all-Star Carlos, they probably beat the Heat and take out Dallas without much drama, given that as good as Dirk was, we were uniquely positioned to throw Jo, Luol and Taj against him all game long and Ronnie and Bogans were also tough as nails defenders to check Terry.

I don't agree that the Bulls had a low ceiling. They were just as good as their record and almost beat three top 10 players that joined together, including prime Bron. +8/+9 net teams like the 11&12 Bulls usually win chips or at least reach the finals.

The 2012 Bulls were even better. Against Philly, they lost not just Rose, but also prime Jo, who was a +25 (!) net player that season and +20 the season before. Just unlucky, but that team was good enough to win chips both in 11 and in 12 and the numbers back it up.

[Axl Rose]

Tough to say for sure. Miami would probably still be favored in the ECF, though it would be much closer than 2011. Asik was healthy, Hamilton was a big upgrade, and Rose was smarter. A rookie Butler off the bench would have been thrown in to guard Lebron and Wade.
I don't think the Thunder were a good match up against Chicago. Interestingly enough, a lot of 2k simulations had the Bulls winning it all had Rose stayed healthy.

What remember most about Rip (other than him being oft injured) is that Miami had his number. I can still picture Miami intercepting passes to and from him.

[Axl Rose]

Lol Rose’s stats were actually down almost across the board over the 29 games or whatever it was prior to him tearing his ACL.

For one he never got a chance to get into rhythm because he was injured pretty much all year. He was also trying to adjust his game to become more of a floor general, which lead him playing more passive. Watch that game versus the Clippers/CP3 when it all came together and he dropped 29-16-8. He was definitely showing improvement overall until the injuries started.

Everyone knows LBJ was the MVP that season.

If anyone else deserved it that year it was Dwight. That first year in Miami was pretty rocky for LeBron. Also i doubt Miami would have "fell off a cliff" without him - Wade and Bosh were still really good players at that point.

That said you may be right about the first part of your post (never making the finals) but everything else was a little too harsh

[johnnyvann840]

So many deluded takes lol. That team was never getting to the finals, no matter what. They always had a low ceiling & were overachieving. No team under PaxGar was ever going to experienced sustained success because no major pieces ever wanted to work under them, plain & simple

Lol Rose’s stats were actually down almost across the board over the 29 games or whatever it was prior to him tearing his ACL. I believe the only categories where his stats spiked were rebounds & 3p% (just because he was chucking up more of them). He was what he was: a low IQ combo guard who couldn’t shoot, didn’t have good vision, and was a poor defender. I don’t see where or how he would’ve gotten THAT much better. He’s cleaned some things up over the years, but he’s still the same dude he’s always been

While his MVP season was exciting, it’s pretty inarguably the most hilariously undeserved MVP award they’ve ever given out, and was only done because the NBA were so desperate for Chicago to get back on top (they eventually gave up trying to help the Bulls once it became apparent that Jerry was never going to fire PaxGar). Everyone knows LBJ was the MVP that season. And whaddya know: Rose goes down, and the team still wins like 50 games LOL! Typically, when an “mvp” goes down, his team falls of a cliff. Hence the “most valuable” thing, ya know? Just sayin. Bulls were still essentially the same team, just didn’t have anyone who could get his own shot. Everyone knows Thibs & his defensive schemes were the MVPs of those squads

All in all, I think it could be said that Rose is the most overrated player of the modern era. He had ONE great (overrated) season. That’s literally it. One season. Solid rookie campaign, pretty good sophomoric outing, his “MVP” year, and then that was it. Mediocrity-to-downright poor from there on out

It’s also comical how much people talk about his little acl tear or whatever. Lol lots of guys tear ACLs & bounce back just fine eventually. You’d think the guy got his leg amputated by the way people refer to that injury. The guy has crap knees, always. Combine that with the fact that his ceiling wasn’t going to get much higher (where? How? At what?), and not a whole lot would have been different had he never torn it

You know a fan base is in dire straits & has been decimated by toxic ownership when they’re still reminiscing about a guy who had ONE (ONE!) great season a decade ago

Read on Twitter

[League Circles]

So many deluded takes lol. That team was never getting to the finals, no matter what. They always had a low ceiling & were overachieving. No team under PaxGar was ever going to experienced sustained success because no major pieces ever wanted to work under them, plain & simple.

This is just an objective lie. A number of major pieces proved they wanted to play for the Bulls under Pax. Boozer, Gasol, Wade, Kobe, Butler, Rose, even Lebron lol.

Lol Rose’s stats were actually down almost across the board over the 29 games or whatever it was prior to him tearing his ACL. I believe the only categories where his stats spiked were rebounds & 3p% (just because he was chucking up more of them). He was what he was: a low IQ combo guard who couldn’t shoot, didn’t have good vision, and was a poor defender. I don’t see where or how he would’ve gotten THAT much better. He’s cleaned some things up over the years, but he’s still the same dude he’s always been

While his MVP season was exciting, it’s pretty inarguably the most hilariously undeserved MVP award they’ve ever given out, and was only done because the NBA were so desperate for Chicago to get back on top (they eventually gave up trying to help the Bulls once it became apparent that Jerry was never going to fire PaxGar). Everyone knows LBJ was the MVP that season. And whaddya know: Rose goes down, and the team still wins like 50 games LOL! Typically, when an “mvp” goes down, his team falls of a cliff. Hence the “most valuable” thing, ya know? Just sayin. Bulls were still essentially the same team, just didn’t have anyone who could get his own shot. Everyone knows Thibs & his defensive schemes were the MVPs of those squads

All in all, I think it could be said that Rose is the most overrated player of the modern era. He had ONE great (overrated) season. That’s literally it. One season. Solid rookie campaign, pretty good sophomoric outing, his “MVP” year, and then that was it. Mediocrity-to-downright poor from there on out

It’s also comical how much people talk about his little acl tear or whatever. Lol lots of guys tear ACLs & bounce back just fine eventually. You’d think the guy got his leg amputated by the way people refer to that injury. The guy has crap knees, always. Combine that with the fact that his ceiling wasn’t going to get much higher (where? How? At what?), and not a whole lot would have been different had he never torn it

You know a fan base is in dire straits & has been decimated by toxic ownership when they’re still reminiscing about a guy who had ONE (ONE!) great season a decade ago

Lol Rose had the most common criteria for winning MVP - clear best player on the best team. It's actually not that uncommon for a strong team to stay competitive after losing their best player. Ever heard of the 93-95 Bulls? It's pretty much consensus among Bulls fans that Rose's season after the MVP year was even better (albeit in fewer games). Rose was a high caliber defender at least unser Thibbs. He's also had 2 good seasons in a row now, much better than mediocre.

[HomoSapien]

So many deluded takes lol.

Let's try and be more civil and less insulting with our posts.