Image ImageImage Image

The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall.

Moderators: HomoSapien, fleet, RedBulls23, Ice Man, AshyLarrysDiaper, Tommy Udo 6 , GimmeDat, dougthonus, Payt10, DASMACKDOWN, kulaz3000

User avatar
johnnyvann840
RealGM
Posts: 33,758
And1: 18,293
Joined: Sep 04, 2010

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1121 » by johnnyvann840 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:56 am

cjbulls wrote:
fleet wrote:What?


You think Patirck Williams was #1 on their board?


Yes. AK all but said that in the presser if you read between the lines.
I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth. - Hunter S. Thompson
BullsFTW
Head Coach
Posts: 6,459
And1: 1,845
Joined: Apr 08, 2012
       

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1122 » by BullsFTW » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:56 am

johnnyvann840 wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
fleet wrote:How is that a win if you dont get your guy? :crazy:


Pat Williams wasn't their guy. They wanted to move up.


They didn't want to move up, they were only considering it in case Detroit moved up to #3. Then, moving up to #2 would have made sure they got Williams. :wink:

:nod:
That may be the case.
Indomitable
RealGM
Posts: 21,685
And1: 4,603
Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Location: Yelzenbah!
     

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1123 » by Indomitable » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:47 am

johnnyvann840 wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
fleet wrote:How is a promise a poor use of a pick? If he stopped working out for teams they are less likely to seek a trade up over the Bulls


If they trade up ahead of you, to 3, then you get Ball. That's a win.


How is that a win? Thank goodness that didn't happen. That's exactly what the Bulls didn't need is a PG who can't shoot at all. Ball's shot mechanics look exactly like my 9 year old niece's. I would much rather have Pat Will than LeMelo Ball.

Stop insulting your niece :lol:
:banghead:
fleet
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 52,797
And1: 21,059
Joined: Dec 23, 2002
     

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1124 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:24 pm

Teams? Detroit, we heard about. Don't know if Kap was talking about Detroit here when he mentioned "teams" plural. Did not know that if so.
Read on Twitter
Try the Trump Tax Calculator!

JackFinn wrote:I see you're back from a trip at the smarty pants store.
cjbulls
Veteran
Posts: 2,880
And1: 959
Joined: Jun 26, 2018

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1125 » by cjbulls » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:53 pm

I guess we will have to wait and see. This kid deserves time (at least 3 years) and of course the draft moves randomly so it’s a bit unfair to always judge after the fact.

But I’d like all the posters here who are saying things like AK had him #1 to remember that as we move forwards and evaluate AK’s drafting skills. Perhaps all your faith shouldn’t be in the FO.
User avatar
coldfish
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 50,883
And1: 21,015
Joined: Jun 11, 2004
Location: Right in the middle
   

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1126 » by coldfish » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:08 pm

cjbulls wrote:I guess we will have to wait and see. This kid deserves time (at least 3 years) and of course the draft moves randomly so it’s a bit unfair to always judge after the fact.

But I’d like all the posters here who are saying things like AK had him #1 to remember that as we move forwards and evaluate AK’s drafting skills. Perhaps all your faith shouldn’t be in the FO.


I very much hope that PW goes on to become a hybrid of Lebron and Jordan, leading the Bulls to 12 straight titles. When I'm negative about PW it doesn't mean I'm rooting against him.

That said, AK has done nothing to earn a level where he is above criticism. Anyone criticizing PW isn't crazy. The film on him is concerning at best. The dude averaged 9.2p 4.0r and 1.0a off the bench. People a little worried about using a #4 pick on him are justified.

I hope AK found a gem in the rough but I'm not going to guarantee it.

.....

To a large degree, the discussion needs to get back to development. IMO, AK is basically trying to set up an advanced development system for players that far exceeds what most NBA teams do. To that end, he is going to draft for size and mentality and try to develop the game sense.

I'm not a Steeler fan but I stand in awe of them. They have been rolling off the same system for decades. They draft high upside 3-4 defenders and develop them. I think they have only had a few losing seasons in the past 30 years and its largely due to consistently having a great defense. They have a system that virtually no one in the NFL emulates. As such, they have become a machine that turns middling picks into a very good team, year after year.

AK is blatantly trying to build that in Chicago. A lot of fans won't like it because many here are tankers. I'm impressed that he is even trying it but he hasn't accomplished anything yet. If it works though, this should be a fun run for Bulls fans.
Indomitable
RealGM
Posts: 21,685
And1: 4,603
Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Location: Yelzenbah!
     

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1127 » by Indomitable » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:13 pm

PhilLeotardo wrote:
Ugly Duckling wrote:All my opinions thus far have been preliminary, just gut feelings based on watching a few minutes of tape on this kid. Now that I've been able to study more film, I can more confidently say that I'm happy with this pick. Not very happy, because we spent the 4th overall pick to get him, but happy. This is not a pick GarPax would've made. They didn't have the balls to take a calculated risk like this. Reisndorf is starting to come back into my good graces. He can keep the team. For now.


Jerry Reinsdorf no longer runs the Bulls & is ancient, probably doesn’t know where he is half the time, & is nearing the end of his life. All of the changes took place *because* of these factors. He doesn’t even live in Chicago. This is all Michael

I can guarantee that the old man doesn’t even know who Marc Evs is, and had almost nothing whatsoever to do with hiring anyone, besides a “senior blessing” type deal

Also, when was Jerry f**** reinsbarf ever in anyone’s good graces? It’s been a 22 year nightmare lol. It took him aging out in order for the nightmare to end

I’m also pretty positive that the Reinsdorf family only owns like 40% of the franchise


Be classy
:banghead:
Mindcrime
Freshman
Posts: 81
And1: 19
Joined: May 01, 2006
Location: Bulgaria

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1128 » by Mindcrime » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:17 pm

coldfish wrote:
cjbulls wrote:I guess we will have to wait and see. This kid deserves time (at least 3 years) and of course the draft moves randomly so it’s a bit unfair to always judge after the fact.

But I’d like all the posters here who are saying things like AK had him #1 to remember that as we move forwards and evaluate AK’s drafting skills. Perhaps all your faith shouldn’t be in the FO.


I very much hope that PW goes on to become a hybrid of Lebron and Jordan, leading the Bulls to 12 straight titles. When I'm negative about PW it doesn't mean I'm rooting against him.

That said, AK has done nothing to earn a level where he is above criticism. Anyone criticizing PW isn't crazy. The film on him is concerning at best. The dude averaged 9.2p 4.0r and 1.0a off the bench. People a little worried about using a #4 pick on him are justified.

I hope AK found a gem in the rough but I'm not going to guarantee it.


Well, that move is the closest thing to drafting a high school project in the current NBA regulatory. The kid was playing as a 18 years old off the bench freshman, 2 years down the road he would have been a starter for sure, so say he declared in 2022 at 20 more matured, polished and experienced would people still be as offended if he went top 5 in that draft? I don't think so.
fleet
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 52,797
And1: 21,059
Joined: Dec 23, 2002
     

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1129 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:49 pm

coldfish wrote:
That said, AK has done nothing to earn a level where he is above criticism.

The trouble with that is that AK hasn’t even had a chance to put a team on the court yet. And all he has done so far was to hire a respectable coach, and then made a draft pick who hasn’t even worn a uniform in practice. He’s not above criticism, but we sort of need to see his work first. The kind of criticism he has been getting is that he already **** up. A little hard to swallow.

Anyone criticizing PW isn't crazy. The film on him is concerning at best. The dude averaged 9.2p 4.0r and 1.0a off the bench. People a little worried about using a #4 pick on him are justified.


Paul George went like #10, and Giannis went #15. Both drafts kind of sucked as well. By the angst we have seen displayed in this thread and all over Chicago, both would have been reaches in the top 5, defined by fan outrage. I think it’s bananas. In fact, Pat Williams is less of a reach than those 2 would have been, because we have reporting that at least one other team wanted to trade up and take Williams at 3. Trade down not feasible.
Try the Trump Tax Calculator!

JackFinn wrote:I see you're back from a trip at the smarty pants store.
fleet
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 52,797
And1: 21,059
Joined: Dec 23, 2002
     

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1130 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:05 pm

Kawahi went #15 as well. Many Bulls fans might have given live birth if the Bulls had a high pick and taken him judging by this week.
Try the Trump Tax Calculator!

JackFinn wrote:I see you're back from a trip at the smarty pants store.
sco
RealGM
Posts: 15,563
And1: 4,114
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1131 » by sco » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:14 pm

I'm using my analogy for this draft again. This draft was the proverbial 3am choices in the bar. There's a lot of discussion as to whether the one with one leg is hotter than the one with the missing tooth. That's what this draft seemed like to me, lots of flaws everywhere you look, but it was easy to ignore them because they were so pervasive and you gotta take someone. We decided to go for the one sitting in the dark corner. Is PWill missing a tooth or a leg or is he the hidden gem...we won't know til morning, but that's who we brought home.
:clap:
fleet
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 52,797
And1: 21,059
Joined: Dec 23, 2002
     

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1132 » by fleet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:25 pm

sco wrote:I'm using my analogy for this draft again. This draft was the proverbial 3am choices in the bar. There's a lot of discussion as to whether the one with one leg is hotter than the one with the missing tooth. That's what this draft seemed like to me, lots of flaws everywhere you look, but it was easy to ignore them because they were so pervasive and you gotta take someone. We decided to go for the one sitting in the dark corner. Is PWill missing a tooth or a leg or is he the hidden gem...we won't know til morning, but that's who we brought home.

Works for me. Because it was a dark corner, maybe she’s gorgeous in the morning with 4 limbs and teeth. :lol:

The main problem the angry critics have, is that they kind of need to have clearly better options to offer and chances to take. Yet, none of them have clearly better options to offer, and chances to take.
Try the Trump Tax Calculator!

JackFinn wrote:I see you're back from a trip at the smarty pants store.
User avatar
coldfish
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 50,883
And1: 21,015
Joined: Jun 11, 2004
Location: Right in the middle
   

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1133 » by coldfish » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:25 pm

fleet wrote:
coldfish wrote:
That said, AK has done nothing to earn a level where he is above criticism.

The trouble with that is that AK hasn’t even had a chance to put a team on the court yet. And all he has done so far was to hire a respectable coach, and then made a draft pick who hasn’t even worn a uniform in practice. He’s not above criticism, but we sort of need to see his work first. The kind of criticism he has been getting is that he already **** up. A little hard to swallow.

Anyone criticizing PW isn't crazy. The film on him is concerning at best. The dude averaged 9.2p 4.0r and 1.0a off the bench. People a little worried about using a #4 pick on him are justified.


Paul George went like #10, and Giannis went #15. Both drafts kind of sucked as well. By the angst we have seen displayed in this thread and all over Chicago, both would have been reaches in the top 5, defined by fan outrage. I think it’s bananas. In fact, Pat Williams is less of a reach than those 2 would have been, because we have reporting that at least one other team wanted to trade up and take Williams at 3. Trade down not feasible.


If you go over the history of high potential guys taken high in the draft, its not pretty. Here are some other names, just guys taken at 4:
- Josh Jackson
- Dragan Bender
- Dion Waiters
- Tyrus Thomas

If you expand it to other picks, the number of disappointments is legion. IMO, AK hasn't earned the ability to select players like this and not get criticized.

Hopefully AK is a genius and he is rightfully ignoring the noise but the noise is justified. Again, if you look at the college tape on the guy he doesn't really look like a pro prospect, let alone a high lottery pick.
User avatar
Southpaw
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,689
And1: 625
Joined: Jul 23, 2011
 

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1134 » by Southpaw » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:34 pm

coldfish wrote:
fleet wrote:
coldfish wrote:
That said, AK has done nothing to earn a level where he is above criticism.

The trouble with that is that AK hasn’t even had a chance to put a team on the court yet. And all he has done so far was to hire a respectable coach, and then made a draft pick who hasn’t even worn a uniform in practice. He’s not above criticism, but we sort of need to see his work first. The kind of criticism he has been getting is that he already **** up. A little hard to swallow.

Anyone criticizing PW isn't crazy. The film on him is concerning at best. The dude averaged 9.2p 4.0r and 1.0a off the bench. People a little worried about using a #4 pick on him are justified.


Paul George went like #10, and Giannis went #15. Both drafts kind of sucked as well. By the angst we have seen displayed in this thread and all over Chicago, both would have been reaches in the top 5, defined by fan outrage. I think it’s bananas. In fact, Pat Williams is less of a reach than those 2 would have been, because we have reporting that at least one other team wanted to trade up and take Williams at 3. Trade down not feasible.


If you go over the history of high potential guys taken high in the draft, its not pretty. Here are some other names, just guys taken at 4:
- Josh Jackson
- Dragan Bender
- Dion Waiters
- Tyrus Thomas

If you expand it to other picks, the number of disappointments is legion. IMO, AK hasn't earned the ability to select players like this and not get criticized.

Hopefully AK is a genius and he is rightfully ignoring the noise but the noise is justified. Again, if you look at the college tape on the guy he doesn't really look like a pro prospect, let alone a high lottery pick.

To be fair, all those guys seems to have attitude issues, to say the least. While Williams seems to have a good head above his shoulders from the interviews and how people talk about him.

I do agree tho that AK is not above criticism and his decision to select an unknown kid 4th when so many other "better" prospects are available took a lot of balls and he's rightfully getting the criticism. That said, it'll be a while before we can truly judge the pick.
Favorite Team: Bulls and Timberwolves
pipfan
Head Coach
Posts: 7,053
And1: 1,537
Joined: Aug 07, 2010

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1135 » by pipfan » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:49 pm

Well, I love the pick for one. I am in NO WAY a draft expert-but I wanted the Bulls to trade back with NY, get the Dallas pick and select PWilliams (or Vassell) at #8. Seems there was no way he would have lasted until 8-so they got their guy.
Character is important to me. Give me a Kirk type player over JR Smith any day. Williams is supposed to be a great kid who works hard-seems like a nice pick to me
samwana
General Manager
Posts: 9,044
And1: 1,986
Joined: Jul 24, 2002
Location: Munich (Germany)
 

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1136 » by samwana » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:01 pm

cjbulls wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:
cjbulls wrote:I'd rather read professional opinions, watch videos and use as much info as possible to evaluate. But you just want to listen to what AK says for the media. Yet I'm the sucker.

some guys on internet podcasts who have literally never worked in the NBA in any capacity = "professionals"

Arturas Karnisovas, A MAN LITERALLY GETTING PAID A LARGE SALARY BY AN NBA FRANCHISE = some amateur

yeah ok bud


You love to misrepresent things when they aren't going your way. I never said AK was an amateur. I said what he tells the media doesn't inform my decision on a prospect. The fact AK said he likes the player, and was his guy, is to be expected not only because they drafted him, but because part of his job is to sell the prospect to the fans. He can't say, "damn we really wanted Wiseman but they wanted LaVine and I only was willing to put in WCJ."

We have seen NBA executives come and go. Most on this board felt the executive in charge of the Bulls with 20 years experience didn't know what he was doing. And that's before getting into the fact the NBA pulls these analysts for work. Stepien's own Cole Zwicker works for an NBA team now. John Hollinger of the Athletic was a former Grizzlies executive. Guys like Schmitz could work for any nba team tomorrow if they wanted.

I like to read up on the prospects, check out videos and make my own decisions. I would guess most posters on here do. I have done this for years now and have my own sense of things. I'm sorry that upsets you or doesn't count in your book. But for some reason you prefer to just let the draft happen and trust the Bulls made the perfect move. That's fine, but that is not a good reason to criticize my approach.
You can do all that and its perfectly fine, it's just annoying that you keep coming up with the same arguments all over again. People are telling you it is fine that you have your opinion, and you just don't want to stop arguing. Just bookmark this page and if PW busts you can dig it up and tell everyone that you were right.

I wasn't very excited about the pick at first, but I will give AK the benefit of the doubt. I have been saying all along that I don't care about mocks and that I like taking the player you want regardless of what other people think I should do. AK just did that and I respect that a lot. Does it mean he got it right? We will know in a few years. And I hope you are still here to say I told you so.

Chill man, season will start soon enough, so we can talk real game action again.

Sent from my POT-LX1 using RealGM mobile app
User avatar
R3AL1TY
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,582
And1: 1,363
Joined: May 17, 2015
   

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1137 » by R3AL1TY » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:08 pm

The downside to PW is he most likely won't be an instant hit or star during his rookie and sophomore years. However, he has the tools and physical traits to make gradual improvements to mold him into becoming a player like Jaylen Brown or Jerami Grant. How long that will take depends on his work ethic and mental toughness.
User avatar
85Bears
Pro Prospect
Posts: 780
And1: 135
Joined: Jan 18, 2007

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1138 » by 85Bears » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:19 pm

I am going to assume Pat Will was the top guy on AKs board and played his hand that way.

After watching the highlights, I can see him being the best player in this draft, It just has that feel.

Maybe AKs confidence in the pick has given me confidence in it but I am excited to see this kid out there.

“He has no ceiling”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Simpleton
Sophomore
Posts: 105
And1: 95
Joined: Jan 13, 2012

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1139 » by Simpleton » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:22 pm

Donovan Mitchell was in a similar position as a freshman on a really good team with lots of depth, he didn't start but he was one of the top 5 on the team in minutes played at ~19/game. He averaged 7.4/3.4/1.7/0.8/0.1 with one of the higher PER's and Usage Rates on the team. Of course he when he came back as a sophomore he played a much larger role and took a big statistical leap.

For comparison Williams averaged 9.2/4/1/1/1 with almost an identical PER and Usage as Mitchell.

The point is not to say that Williams will be a superstar but there is a clear path forward/trajectory there and it's reasonable to believe that if Williams had came back for his sophomore year he would've made a similar leap to something like 16/8/2/2/1.5.

Of course there's also the added variable of the pandemic/timing of the draft and the fact that in recent private workouts teams would've likely seen that intangible progression given that under normal circumstances Williams would just be starting his sophomore year right now. Remember that the Jazz fell in love with Mitchell specifically after a private workout and their execs even threatened to fire scouts if anything leaked on their interest.

I would've still preferred Avdija because I think size+playmaking is the holy grail in today's NBA and that's where I would've rolled the dice but Williams probably has more 2-way potential than anybody except Edwards and Wiseman who went 1/2, so I totally get gambling on that.
cjbulls
Veteran
Posts: 2,880
And1: 959
Joined: Jun 26, 2018

Re: The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall. 

Post#1140 » by cjbulls » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:33 pm

samwana wrote:
cjbulls wrote:
Leslie Forman wrote:some guys on internet podcasts who have literally never worked in the NBA in any capacity = "professionals"

Arturas Karnisovas, A MAN LITERALLY GETTING PAID A LARGE SALARY BY AN NBA FRANCHISE = some amateur

yeah ok bud


You love to misrepresent things when they aren't going your way. I never said AK was an amateur. I said what he tells the media doesn't inform my decision on a prospect. The fact AK said he likes the player, and was his guy, is to be expected not only because they drafted him, but because part of his job is to sell the prospect to the fans. He can't say, "damn we really wanted Wiseman but they wanted LaVine and I only was willing to put in WCJ."

We have seen NBA executives come and go. Most on this board felt the executive in charge of the Bulls with 20 years experience didn't know what he was doing. And that's before getting into the fact the NBA pulls these analysts for work. Stepien's own Cole Zwicker works for an NBA team now. John Hollinger of the Athletic was a former Grizzlies executive. Guys like Schmitz could work for any nba team tomorrow if they wanted.

I like to read up on the prospects, check out videos and make my own decisions. I would guess most posters on here do. I have done this for years now and have my own sense of things. I'm sorry that upsets you or doesn't count in your book. But for some reason you prefer to just let the draft happen and trust the Bulls made the perfect move. That's fine, but that is not a good reason to criticize my approach.
You can do all that and its perfectly fine, it's just annoying that you keep coming up with the same arguments all over again. People are telling you it is fine that you have your opinion, and you just don't want to stop arguing. Just bookmark this page and if PW busts you can dig it up and tell everyone that you were right.

I wasn't very excited about the pick at first, but I will give AK the benefit of the doubt. I have been saying all along that I don't care about mocks and that I like taking the player you want regardless of what other people think I should do. AK just did that and I respect that a lot. Does it mean he got it right? We will know in a few years. And I hope you are still here to say I told you so.

Chill man, season will start soon enough, so we can talk real game action again.

Sent from my POT-LX1 using RealGM mobile app


People respond to me and I do the same. That’s courtesy as much as anything. If you have an issue with me responding a certain way, have these posters stop asking me similar questions I guess. I was asked 5 times who I thought was a better choice. Should I ignore someone who wants to engage?

Valid opinion: I loved the kid and am glad we got him at 4.

Valid opinion: I am not sure about the pick, but I trust AK has a good feel for him and this draft.

Valid opinion: I didn’t like the pick. Williams wasn’t worth #4 and we should have gone in a different direction.

Only one of these is being attacked, despite all being valid opinions.

Return to Chicago Bulls