2024-25 Regular Season

[JujitsuFlip]

The NBA transaction log shows that Emoni has been signed to our 2nd two-way slot.

https://www.fearthesword.com/2024/8/20/24222489/emoni-bates-returns-to-cleveland-cavaliers-on-two-way-deal

Yeah, weird there was no official announcement but we have 2 of the 3 two-way slots locked in.

Glad Kenny finally came back from the Olympics so we could start our free agency lol

Emoni probably wasn't happy to be headed back to the G League.

He had 7+ weeks to find a standard contract from the 29 other NBA teams, no one was interested.

He at least still gets 1 more year to be around the Cavs organization. Similar to Tyson, they just need to be in the same place for multiple years. Constantly bouncing around for these young guys is not good.

[jbk1234]

And the players in their rotation were...

LeVert - 40 games
Allen
D'Lo: All-Star
Dinwiddie
Allen Crabbe - hasn't played since before the pandemic
Ed Davis - out of the NBA
Joe Harris - retired
Carroll - Cavs assistant coach
Kurucs - out of the NBA
Dudley - retired
Shabazz Napier - out of the NBA
Treveon Graham - out of the NBA
RHJ- out of the NBA

I think it's pretty dang impressive that collection of guys earned the 6th seed.

It was 5 years ago. Joe Harris just retired. I don't have the over/under on staying in the NBA as 5 years for the back third of our roster.

It's moot.

The point is, all those guys were mediocre to below mediocre.

There's not a single guy in that collection as good as Mitchell or Mobley. Plus Allen wasn't what he is now, back then.

People claim D'Lo = Garland but i think that's a disservice to Garland.

D'Lo/Dinwiddie/Napier
Harris/LeVert
Kurucs/Graham
Carroll/Dudley/RHJ
Allen/Davis

If jb was coaching that group, they win 22 games.

It's not moot. There's a huge delta between mediocre and fringe-NBA player. TT physically took the ball out of Bates' hands after his 4th or 5th possession turning the ball over. That was against the Hornets in the last game of the season (a game which the Hornets had zero incentive to win).

CPJ, Merrill, and even Niang can eat minutes against bad teams. Hopefully, Ty Jerome and Tyson can (at least) do the same. Add in Okoro and LeVert, and that's 12 playable bodies only one of whom is a big.

It doesn't really matter as Okoro's QO can no longer be withdrawn, but having a couple vet minimum bigs who are actually playable, at least during the regular season, is pretty much a necessity as far as a consistent 10-man rotation.

[JujitsuFlip]

It was 5 years ago. Joe Harris just retired. I don't have the over/under on staying in the NBA as 5 years for the back third of our roster.

It's moot.

The point is, all those guys were mediocre to below mediocre.

There's not a single guy in that collection as good as Mitchell or Mobley. Plus Allen wasn't what he is now, back then.

People claim D'Lo = Garland but i think that's a disservice to Garland.

D'Lo/Dinwiddie/Napier
Harris/LeVert
Kurucs/Graham
Carroll/Dudley/RHJ
Allen/Davis

If jb was coaching that group, they win 22 games.

It's not moot. There's a huge delta between mediocre and fringe-NBA player. TT physically took the ball out of Bates' hands after his 4th or 5th possession turning the ball over. That was against the Hornets in the last game of the season (a game which the Hornets had zero incentive to win).

CPJ, Merrill, and even Niang can eat minutes against bad teams. Hopefully, Ty Jerome and Tyson can (at least) do the same. Add in Okoro and LeVert, and that's 12 playable bodies only one of whom is a big.

It doesn't really matter as Okoro's QO can no longer be withdrawn, but having a couple vet minimum bigs who are actually playable, at least during the regular season, is pretty much a necessity as far as a consistent 10-man rotation.

Yeah, sucks we can no longer withdraw the QO, good call out.

I think you're gonna have to settle for a couple two-way bigs to fill the consistent 10 man rotation.

If Kenny can give 10+ mpg to RHJ, Napier, Graham, Dudley, Crabbe, and Davis all fringe NBA players i have zero worries Kenny can stick to his guns and not become jb "i refuse to play more than 7 guys" bickerstaff.

[jbk1234]

It's moot.

The point is, all those guys were mediocre to below mediocre.

There's not a single guy in that collection as good as Mitchell or Mobley. Plus Allen wasn't what he is now, back then.

People claim D'Lo = Garland but i think that's a disservice to Garland.

D'Lo/Dinwiddie/Napier
Harris/LeVert
Kurucs/Graham
Carroll/Dudley/RHJ
Allen/Davis

If jb was coaching that group, they win 22 games.

It's not moot. There's a huge delta between mediocre and fringe-NBA player. TT physically took the ball out of Bates' hands after his 4th or 5th possession turning the ball over. That was against the Hornets in the last game of the season (a game which the Hornets had zero incentive to win).

CPJ, Merrill, and even Niang can eat minutes against bad teams. Hopefully, Ty Jerome and Tyson can (at least) do the same. Add in Okoro and LeVert, and that's 12 playable bodies only one of whom is a big.

It doesn't really matter as Okoro's QO can no longer be withdrawn, but having a couple vet minimum bigs who are actually playable, at least during the regular season, is pretty much a necessity as far as a consistent 10-man rotation.

Yeah, sucks we can no longer withdraw the QO, good call out.

I think you're gonna have to settle for a couple two-way bigs to fill the consistent 10 man rotation.

If Kenny can give 10+ mpg to RHJ, Napier, Graham, Dudley, Crabbe, and Davis all fringe NBA players i have zero worries Kenny can stick to his guns and not become jb "i refuse to play more than 7 guys" bickerstaff.

If a guy isn't playable, he's not playable. You can't *settle* for guys who just kill you whenever they're on the court. Eventually, the coach will just stop playing them.

[JujitsuFlip]

It's not moot. There's a huge delta between mediocre and fringe-NBA player. TT physically took the ball out of Bates' hands after his 4th or 5th possession turning the ball over. That was against the Hornets in the last game of the season (a game which the Hornets had zero incentive to win).

CPJ, Merrill, and even Niang can eat minutes against bad teams. Hopefully, Ty Jerome and Tyson can (at least) do the same. Add in Okoro and LeVert, and that's 12 playable bodies only one of whom is a big.

It doesn't really matter as Okoro's QO can no longer be withdrawn, but having a couple vet minimum bigs who are actually playable, at least during the regular season, is pretty much a necessity as far as a consistent 10-man rotation.

Yeah, sucks we can no longer withdraw the QO, good call out.

I think you're gonna have to settle for a couple two-way bigs to fill the consistent 10 man rotation.

If Kenny can give 10+ mpg to RHJ, Napier, Graham, Dudley, Crabbe, and Davis all fringe NBA players i have zero worries Kenny can stick to his guns and not become jb "i refuse to play more than 7 guys" bickerstaff.

If a guy isn't playable, he's not playable. You can't *settle* for guys who just kill you whenever they're on the court. Eventually, the coach will just stop playing them.

But at least he will play them and find that out. Maybe JT Thor will actually be a decent 10 to 12 mpg guy, who knows.

Heck, maybe Burns ends up in the final two-way slot and is serviceable.

[toooskies]

Yeah, sucks we can no longer withdraw the QO, good call out.

I think you're gonna have to settle for a couple two-way bigs to fill the consistent 10 man rotation.

If Kenny can give 10+ mpg to RHJ, Napier, Graham, Dudley, Crabbe, and Davis all fringe NBA players i have zero worries Kenny can stick to his guns and not become jb "i refuse to play more than 7 guys" bickerstaff.

If a guy isn't playable, he's not playable. You can't *settle* for guys who just kill you whenever they're on the court. Eventually, the coach will just stop playing them.

But at least he will play them and find that out. Maybe JT Thor will actually be a decent 10 to 12 mpg guy, who knows.

Heck, maybe Burns ends up in the final two-way slot and is serviceable.

Burns didn't look close to ready. I'd rather look at Liddell if Travers isn't taking that spot.

[JujitsuFlip]

If a guy isn't playable, he's not playable. You can't *settle* for guys who just kill you whenever they're on the court. Eventually, the coach will just stop playing them.

But at least he will play them and find that out. Maybe JT Thor will actually be a decent 10 to 12 mpg guy, who knows.

Heck, maybe Burns ends up in the final two-way slot and is serviceable.

Burns didn't look close to ready. I'd rather look at Liddell if Travers isn't taking that spot.

Maybe it's Diop for all we know. None of us saw Thor coming so it could be a big not on our radar too.

[toooskies]

But at least he will play them and find that out. Maybe JT Thor will actually be a decent 10 to 12 mpg guy, who knows.

Heck, maybe Burns ends up in the final two-way slot and is serviceable.

Burns didn't look close to ready. I'd rather look at Liddell if Travers isn't taking that spot.

Maybe it's Diop for all we know. None of us saw Thor coming so it could be a big not on our radar too.

Could be anybody. Could change depending on Okoro resolution.

[JujitsuFlip]

Burns didn't look close to ready. I'd rather look at Liddell if Travers isn't taking that spot.

Maybe it's Diop for all we know. None of us saw Thor coming so it could be a big not on our radar too.

Could be anybody. Could change depending on Okoro resolution.

Yeah, i think everything hinges on him. Once jbk pointed out July 13th was the deadline to pull the QO it's kind of a stalemate for now.

Camp opens in 5 weeks but we have seen holdouts go into camp in the past and heck even into the season.

[JujitsuFlip]

Sign em both to non guaranteed vet mins and call it a day.

[jbk1234]

Sign em both to non guaranteed vet mins and call it a day.

Gallo would be a nice Niang replacement, but Niang needs to go first. I think Boban is absolutely worth a third-string center spot in the NBA, but the problem with him as a backup, is that he's not a plug and play in any system center.

[JujitsuFlip]

https://www.fearthesword.com/2024/8/26/24228197/grading-every-cavs-move-since-the-donovan-mitchell-trade

If you all have a chance, give this article a read.

Never heard of the author but i really agree with the overall narrative of the piece.

I don't think the individual grades for each move matter so much but the conclusion i fully agree with.

[mcfly1204]

https://www.fearthesword.com/2024/8/26/24228197/grading-every-cavs-move-since-the-donovan-mitchell-trade

If you all have a chance, give this article a read.

Never heard of the author but i really agree with the overall narrative of the piece.

I don't think the individual grades for each move matter so much but the conclusion i fully agree with.

It was okay, but there's definitely some debatable takes in there. My primary issue was lumping the Mitchell, Mobley, and Allen extensions together. They maintain their core, and the ancillary pieces will be retooled over the next few seasons. One can argue the Strus and Niang signings, but there's still a lot to like about Strus even when his shot is not going down.

[JonFromVA]

https://www.fearthesword.com/2024/8/26/24228197/grading-every-cavs-move-since-the-donovan-mitchell-trade

If you all have a chance, give this article a read.

Never heard of the author but i really agree with the overall narrative of the piece.

I don't think the individual grades for each move matter so much but the conclusion i fully agree with.

It was okay, but there's definitely some debatable takes in there. My primary issue was lumping the Mitchell, Mobley, and Allen extensions together. They maintain their core, and the ancillary pieces will be retooled over the next few seasons. One can argue the Strus and Niang signings, but there's still a lot to like about Strus even when his shot is not going down.

The aspect missing from the article is ... what sort of miracles was the author expecting the Cavs to pull off given their lack of flexibility after the Mitchell trade?

And for instance, part of the problem with Niang was we had to ask him to do more than just stand in the corner and bury open 3's because of our injuries.

Not all the transactions are equal and they needed to be graded on a curve.

We're betting heavily on the core, continuity, health, and what Kenny will bring.

[mcfly1204]

https://www.fearthesword.com/2024/8/26/24228197/grading-every-cavs-move-since-the-donovan-mitchell-trade

If you all have a chance, give this article a read.

Never heard of the author but i really agree with the overall narrative of the piece.

I don't think the individual grades for each move matter so much but the conclusion i fully agree with.

It was okay, but there's definitely some debatable takes in there. My primary issue was lumping the Mitchell, Mobley, and Allen extensions together. They maintain their core, and the ancillary pieces will be retooled over the next few seasons. One can argue the Strus and Niang signings, but there's still a lot to like about Strus even when his shot is not going down.

The aspect missing from the article is ... what sort of miracles was the author expecting the Cavs to pull off given their lack of flexibility after the Mitchell trade?

And for instance, part of the problem with Niang was we had to ask him to do more than just stand in the corner and bury open 3's because of our injuries.

Not all the transactions are equal and they needed to be graded on a curve.

We're betting heavily on the core, continuity, health, and what Kenny will bring.

The acquisition of Niang and Strus felt very similar to when the Cavs picked up Damon Jones and Marshall. The Cavs needed shooting, so they went out and got shooters. To your point, Niang ended up playing a lot of minutes that were probably slotted for Wade. Hopefully Wade can stay healthy this year...

[toooskies]

https://www.fearthesword.com/2024/8/26/24228197/grading-every-cavs-move-since-the-donovan-mitchell-trade

If you all have a chance, give this article a read.

Never heard of the author but i really agree with the overall narrative of the piece.

I don't think the individual grades for each move matter so much but the conclusion i fully agree with.

Flickinger is on The Junkyard Pod with Tony Pesta a lot.

I fundamentally disagree because there is a complete lack of expectation setting for certain moves and consideration of the alternatives.

Love was a disaster in hindsight because Dean Wade never got healthy, but he didn't shoot well in Miami either-- was he going to be the difference between beating New York or not? Was he leaving in free agency anyway? We thought, at the time, that Wade and Stevens could handle the 4 when we released him. Turns out Wade never got healthy and Stevens can't rebound when playing the 4.

Danny Green was a flop, but a flop with your 15th roster spot isn't a disaster, it's how it goes in the NBA. Would we have rather promoted Diakite to the playoff roster?

Damian Jones was a flop, but a flop with your third-string C when your fourth-string C actually plays well isn't a disaster, it's how it goes in the NBA. Signing both Jones AND Tristan Thompson, and batting roughly 50% on the results? Great outcome when you sum both moves.

If signing LeVert to a reasonable deal that expires when we need cap space is a C, I don't know what kind of curve is going on here. He's a little expensive for a 6th man but not egregiously so. He says LeVert doesn't fit while linking to an article saying that LeVert is versatile enough to fill a variety of roles on the team-- the most fitty fit there is. LeVert is on the team because he's happy to be a Cav, being born and raised in Ohio.

Actually finding useful guys in roster spots 10-15 like Merrill and CPJ and TT is the valuable part of being a GM. Most guys in those roster spots aren't playable playoff players on the majority of rosters around the league. Damian Jones didn't work out? Doesn't matter when TT did. Emoni Bates still on a two-way? Par for the course drafting a young guy in the back half of the second round. Is $8m for a guy who played every game for us in the regular season an F-worthy deal? Nah, not when guys who are often not even in rotations like Luke Kennard is signing for slightly more.

His more pronounced "mistakes" are his lack of moves rather than the moves he's made. Would firing JBB last summer instead of this summer and getting a better coach helped the team more? Maybe. Should he have made a deal at either of the past two trade deadlines? Probably. Should he do something besides low-ball Okoro this offseason? Probably.

[jbk1234]

https://www.fearthesword.com/2024/8/26/24228197/grading-every-cavs-move-since-the-donovan-mitchell-trade

If you all have a chance, give this article a read.

Never heard of the author but i really agree with the overall narrative of the piece.

I don't think the individual grades for each move matter so much but the conclusion i fully agree with.

It was okay, but there's definitely some debatable takes in there. My primary issue was lumping the Mitchell, Mobley, and Allen extensions together. They maintain their core, and the ancillary pieces will be retooled over the next few seasons. One can argue the Strus and Niang signings, but there's still a lot to like about Strus even when his shot is not going down.

The aspect missing from the article is ... what sort of miracles was the author expecting the Cavs to pull off given their lack of flexibility after the Mitchell trade?

And for instance, part of the problem with Niang was we had to ask him to do more than just stand in the corner and bury open 3's because of our injuries.

Not all the transactions are equal and they needed to be graded on a curve.

We're betting heavily on the core, continuity, health, and what Kenny will bring.

I'm much higher on extending the core because even if you end up trading one or two of them, their trade value will be significantly higher than if they were on an expiring contract with one foot on the door. If Mitchell had declined to extend and gave a list, we would've been in trouble. In addition, Allen's extension is team friendly.

The absolute worst case scenario would've been breaking up the core and getting pennies on dollar in return. I don't know how that was a C.

I agree on Niang though. If a player can't consistently give you minutes against good teams, due to limitations on one end of the floor, the absolute cap on that player's salary should be the TaxMLE with a league minimum deal being preferable.

I'm higher on the Strus acquisition than him. His primary roll is to be a safety valve on offense who stops opposing defenses from sagging. The Celtics stayed home on him in that series and there's a little bit of prisoner off the moment analysis there.

TT is rated way to high if you're considering his clean-piss-test play. There was a noticeable drop in performance after the suspension.

Once the decision to keep the core together was made, Okoro, Niang, and our pick were the only real question marks. Tyson was our best player in SL by a significant margin. Apply all the necessary caveats, but it's a better outcome than the alternative. Would I have liked to have seen trades involving Okoro and Niang, or have Okoro sign a deal that reflects his current market? Sure, but that's not something Altman can control.

[JujitsuFlip]

https://www.fearthesword.com/2024/8/26/24228197/grading-every-cavs-move-since-the-donovan-mitchell-trade

If you all have a chance, give this article a read.

Never heard of the author but i really agree with the overall narrative of the piece.

I don't think the individual grades for each move matter so much but the conclusion i fully agree with.

Flickinger is on The Junkyard Pod with Tony Pesta a lot.

I fundamentally disagree because there is a complete lack of expectation setting for certain moves and consideration of the alternatives.

Love was a disaster in hindsight because Dean Wade never got healthy, but he didn't shoot well in Miami either-- was he going to be the difference between beating New York or not? Was he leaving in free agency anyway? We thought, at the time, that Wade and Stevens could handle the 4 when we released him. Turns out Wade never got healthy and Stevens can't rebound when playing the 4.

Danny Green was a flop, but a flop with your 15th roster spot isn't a disaster, it's how it goes in the NBA. Would we have rather promoted Diakite to the playoff roster?

Damian Jones was a flop, but a flop with your third-string C when your fourth-string C actually plays well isn't a disaster, it's how it goes in the NBA. Signing both Jones AND Tristan Thompson, and batting roughly 50% on the results? Great outcome when you sum both moves.

If signing LeVert to a reasonable deal that expires when we need cap space is a C, I don't know what kind of curve is going on here. He's a little expensive for a 6th man but not egregiously so. He says LeVert doesn't fit while linking to an article saying that LeVert is versatile enough to fill a variety of roles on the team-- the most fitty fit there is. LeVert is on the team because he's happy to be a Cav, being born and raised in Ohio.

Actually finding useful guys in roster spots 10-15 like Merrill and CPJ and TT is the valuable part of being a GM. Most guys in those roster spots aren't playable playoff players on the majority of rosters around the league. Damian Jones didn't work out? Doesn't matter when TT did. Emoni Bates still on a two-way? Par for the course drafting a young guy in the back half of the second round. Is $8m for a guy who played every game for us in the regular season an F-worthy deal? Nah, not when guys who are often not even in rotations like Luke Kennard is signing for slightly more.

His more pronounced "mistakes" are his lack of moves rather than the moves he's made. Would firing JBB last summer instead of this summer and getting a better coach helped the team more? Maybe. Should he have made a deal at either of the past two trade deadlines? Probably. Should he do something besides low-ball Okoro this offseason? Probably.

Love's rebounding and outlet passes would've helped tremendously in the Knicks series, especially since Mobley and Allen were the only 2 bigs who played.

Just bc Green was the last guy added doesn't mean he's the 15th man, what?! He was 1 of 7 guys getting minutes in that series. jb used him terribly.

Could they have had better players in the Jones and TT slots though?

When do you expect the Cavs are ever going to have cap space again with 3 max contracts and Allen being paid handsomely?

Merrill and CPJ being found is cool, too bad jb didn't trust them.

Niang was a F in the playoffs, no doubt. Again, who else could they have had in that salary slot instead?

[toooskies]

Love's rebounding and outlet passes would've helped tremendously in the Knicks series, especially since Mobley and Allen were the only 2 bigs who played.

Just bc Green was the last guy added doesn't mean he's the 15th man, what?! He was 1 of 7 guys getting minutes in that series. jb used him terribly.

Could they have had better players in the Jones and TT slots though?

When do you expect the Cavs are ever going to have cap space again with 3 max contracts and Allen being paid handsomely?

Merrill and CPJ being found is cool, too bad jb didn't trust them.

Niang was a F in the playoffs, no doubt. Again, who else could they have had in that salary slot instead?

Love would've been an improvement over playing Cedi Osman, Danny Green, and Caris LeVert at the 4, yes. Would that have changed the Cavs losing in 5 to the Cavs winning in 7 or less? That's an awful lot of credit you're giving to a bench player who still might not have earned his rotation spot back by the playoffs, still might not have figured out his shooting, and maybe would've mailed in the season if he wasn't released. The thought at the time of release is that he might've been a liability for the locker room.

Green only got minutes because JBB didn't know what he could get out of him and decided finding out was better than wondering what-if in the offseason, and in theory he at least offered shooting which the Cavs needed. But against the Knicks he absolutely played like a guy who'd only get 9 NBA minutes after that.

The Cavs did not have more money or guaranteed rotation spots to offer when they signed Jones and TT, so no, I don't think they could've done better.

Who was good in the playoffs that signed for less than Niang, could shoot, and could play backup PF? The list is Christian Wood, Dario Saric, Kevin Love. Were any of those guys obviously better choices? Could anyone predict that Niang's shot would suddenly leave him in the playoffs after having success in the past?

[toooskies]

Travers signed to the last two-way spot.