Varsho/Moreno/Kirk Discussion Thread

[Cyrus]

Can we all agree that Varsho was truly the MVP for Dodgers in this 7 game series. I mean Yamo was important in game 3, 6and 7, but no one came come close to having the impact Varsho had in all 7 games, to give the Trophy to Dodgers, he's probably celebrating with Dodgers in that parade today:

Varsho in game 6: -11.51% cWPA
Varsho in game 7: -24.26% cWPA

Only ironically Kirk was worse in game 7...lol

Varsho overally in Dodgers series had: -34.96^ cWPA - lowest on the team. This includes his game 1 which he had HR.

Either way we need to find away to upgrade our outfield, can't basically have nothing coming from your outfield until Barger was playing there.

As discussed, Dodgers have the lead in the 4th inning on Saturday night if Varsho wasn't in the outfield. Probably would have went on to roll us.

He could have saved everybody a lot of heartbreak if he hadn't made that miraculous catch. We can definitely agree that was a big mistake from him.

Nah, if we were going to have 0 on offense, could have put Straw in there, and wouldn't even need to dive to catch that ball, easy out. Like what Dodgers did by lifting Pages, cause he wasn't doing anything offensively. Had we had straw in there, blue jays wouldn't been silly batting him 5, 7, or whatever, definitely would been in the 9th hole, where a non hitter should be batting.

[Randle McMurphy]

Can we all agree that Varsho was truly the MVP for Dodgers in this 7 game series. I mean Yamo was important in game 3, 6and 7, but no one came come close to having the impact Varsho had in all 7 games, to give the Trophy to Dodgers, he's probably celebrating with Dodgers in that parade today:

Varsho in game 6: -11.51% cWPA
Varsho in game 7: -24.26% cWPA

Only ironically Kirk was worse in game 7...lol

Varsho overally in Dodgers series had: -34.96^ cWPA - lowest on the team. This includes his game 1 which he had HR.

Either way we need to find away to upgrade our outfield, can't basically have nothing coming from your outfield until Barger was playing there.

As discussed, Dodgers have the lead in the 4th inning on Saturday night if Varsho wasn't in the outfield. Probably would have went on to roll us.

He could have saved everybody a lot of heartbreak if he hadn't made that miraculous catch. We can definitely agree that was a big mistake from him.

Yet you keep ignoring the point that had numbnuts hit well in the series before game 7, game 7 wouldnt be needed. But you keep dodging that cuz it doesn’t fit your narrative.

I don’t care what Moreno or Gurriel are doing. They’re not our players, Varsho is. So stop using them to justify the crappiness of Varsho. I only care about the fact that Varsho is a terrible hitter with a terrible arm who cost us the World Series. F. U. C. K Varsho.

Oh, I'd argue that the Jays don't even win game 1 (and therefore even get to a game 7) without Varsho's HR off Snell when he was dominating them. First HR Snell had allowed to a LHB all season long. He completely shifted the momentum of that game and led to Snell getting pulled for a bad bullpen.

He had a few unlucky ABs for sure in the last couple of games, but Varsho is a very good hitter and elite defender who was one of the biggest contributors to the Jays' best season in a generation. It's unhealthy to have such hatred for a player like that.

[Randle McMurphy]

Can we all agree that Varsho was truly the MVP for Dodgers in this 7 game series. I mean Yamo was important in game 3, 6and 7, but no one came come close to having the impact Varsho had in all 7 games, to give the Trophy to Dodgers, he's probably celebrating with Dodgers in that parade today:

Varsho in game 6: -11.51% cWPA
Varsho in game 7: -24.26% cWPA

Only ironically Kirk was worse in game 7...lol

Varsho overally in Dodgers series had: -34.96^ cWPA - lowest on the team. This includes his game 1 which he had HR.

Either way we need to find away to upgrade our outfield, can't basically have nothing coming from your outfield until Barger was playing there.

As discussed, Dodgers have the lead in the 4th inning on Saturday night if Varsho wasn't in the outfield. Probably would have went on to roll us.

He could have saved everybody a lot of heartbreak if he hadn't made that miraculous catch. We can definitely agree that was a big mistake from him.

Nah, if we were going to have 0 on offense, could have put Straw in there, and wouldn't even need to dive to catch that ball, easy out. Like what Dodgers did by lifting Pages, cause he wasn't doing anything offensively. Had we had straw in there, blue jays wouldn't been silly batting him 5, 7, or whatever, definitely would been in the 9th hole, where a non hitter should be batting.

Straw had a .269 OPS in the playoffs. I suppose it's a good thing then that you weren't setting the lineups for the Jays.

[JaysRule25]

Can we all at least agree that Scheider messed up hitting Varsho 5th consistently and this likely cost us game 6 because Varsho messed up every single opportunity to bring a run in? We had Barger hitting .500 in the world series and Ernie Clement setting a record for most hits in a postseason, yet they were both consistently hitting below Varsho for some crazy reason all series long. Varsho had no business hitting higher than those two. Neither did Lukes did batting 2nd tbh, but at least Lukes is better at making contact and working an at-bat and getting on base.

If Varsho hits 8th in this lineup and Barger and Clement got some of Varsho's RISP chances, they likely don't go 0-fer. We likely win game 6.

Roberts straight up sent Pages to the bench despite him being a 27 homer hitter in the regular season. Schneider didn't even have to bench Varsho here. Just ride the hot hand. Awful lineup decision that's gonna get forgotten because it's so much easier to focus on single plays. Roberts straight up out-managed Schneider here.

[s e n s i]

- superstar
- generational catcher
- carrying his team to World Series
- pudge 2.0
- comparable to yadier molina
- dbacks legitimate contender for years to come because of moreno
- moulding himself into a HOF catcher

Then gloating every time Varsho does anything good just makes most of us want to avoid this board.

i'm curious as to why that would bother anyone here, given he plays for the team we all allegedly support. it's a toronto blue jays forum after all. certainly gloating about a player doing good things is better than gloating about when a player isn't playing their best (as is frequently done here any time varsho or kirk slump) because they've emotionally attached themselves to gabriel moreno, a light-hitting catcher on the arizona diamondbacks.

I don’t give a flying **** about Moreno or Kirk or Gurriel. I don’t know why we keep discussing them. We should probably create a separate thread for Varsho detached from what or who we traded for him.

I only care about the fact that Varsho is on our team and he is a big reason for us losing the WS. I don’t want to discuss any other player when talking about the crappiness of this mofo.

you don’t know why we keep discussing players whose names are listed in the title of the thread?

[GameChannel]

As discussed, Dodgers have the lead in the 4th inning on Saturday night if Varsho wasn't in the outfield. Probably would have went on to roll us.

He could have saved everybody a lot of heartbreak if he hadn't made that miraculous catch. We can definitely agree that was a big mistake from him.

Yet you keep ignoring the point that had numbnuts hit well in the series before game 7, game 7 wouldnt be needed. But you keep dodging that cuz it doesn’t fit your narrative.

I don’t care what Moreno or Gurriel are doing. They’re not our players, Varsho is. So stop using them to justify the crappiness of Varsho. I only care about the fact that Varsho is a terrible hitter with a terrible arm who cost us the World Series. F. U. C. K Varsho.

Oh, I'd argue that the Jays don't even win game 1 (and therefore even get to a game 7) without Varsho's HR off Snell when he was dominating them. First HR Snell had allowed to a LHB all season long. He completely shifted the momentum of that game and led to Snell getting pulled for a bad bullpen.

He had a few unlucky ABs for sure in the last couple of games, but Varsho is a very good hitter and elite defender who was one of the biggest contributors to the Jays' best season in a generation. It's unhealthy to have such hatred for a player like that.

Unlucky at bats? The guy was whiffing at everything. How about drawing a walk once in a while?

[Mehar]

Can we all agree that Varsho was truly the MVP for Dodgers in this 7 game series. I mean Yamo was important in game 3, 6and 7, but no one came come close to having the impact Varsho had in all 7 games, to give the Trophy to Dodgers, he's probably celebrating with Dodgers in that parade today:

Varsho in game 6: -11.51% cWPA
Varsho in game 7: -24.26% cWPA

Only ironically Kirk was worse in game 7...lol

Varsho overally in Dodgers series had: -34.96^ cWPA - lowest on the team. This includes his game 1 which he had HR.

Either way we need to find away to upgrade our outfield, can't basically have nothing coming from your outfield until Barger was playing there.

As discussed, Dodgers have the lead in the 4th inning on Saturday night if Varsho wasn't in the outfield. Probably would have went on to roll us.

He could have saved everybody a lot of heartbreak if he hadn't made that miraculous catch. We can definitely agree that was a big mistake from him.

Yet you keep ignoring the point that had numbnuts hit well in the series before game 7, game 7 wouldnt be needed. But you keep dodging that cuz it doesn’t fit your narrative.

I don’t care what Moreno or Gurriel are doing. They’re not our players, Varsho is. So stop using them to justify the crappiness of Varsho. I only care about the fact that Varsho is a terrible hitter with a terrible arm who cost us the World Series. F. U. C. K Varsho.

The Varsho lovers are continually bringing up Gurriel and Moreno to distract from the fact that their hero singlehandedly cost us the World Series by being absolute trash at the plate. By being a 5 foot 8 Human Feces that could not hit a Beach Ball to save his life by getting on base. I am like you. I could care less how Gurriel and Moreno are doing in Arizona. I said so earlier. Let's not discuss about Gurriel and Moreno who were probably in Cancun partying the last month. I simply cared about the fact that this 5 foot 8 Human Feces called Noodle Arm Varsho cost this City and Country a World Series Title, by being the most pathetic hitter I have ever seen try to hit a baseball in a World Series with men on base.

The True Dodgers MVP that should have celebrated today in LA. This series would have ended in 5 games, or 6 Games at the latest- if your Number 5 hitter was simply decent and not utter trash like Noodle Arm Varsho. F*** this 5 foot 8 Human Feces, and let last Saturday be the last time I ever see this piece of garbage in a Jays uniform. I had booked off work tomorrow fully expecting to see a World Series Parade, and Noodle Arm Varsho cost me that joy. I will never forgive that Piece of Garbage for robbing me of the joy of seeing a World Series Parade as an Adult.

[Randle McMurphy]

Can we all at least agree that Scheider messed up hitting Varsho 5th consistently and this likely cost us game 6 because Varsho messed up every single opportunity to bring a run in? We had Barger hitting .500 in the world series and Ernie Clement setting a record for most hits in a postseason, yet they were both consistently hitting below Varsho for some crazy reason all series long. Varsho had no business hitting higher than those two. Neither did Lukes did batting 2nd tbh, but at least Lukes is better at making contact and working an at-bat and getting on base.

If Varsho hits 8th in this lineup and Barger and Clement got some of Varsho's RISP chances, they likely don't go 0-fer. We likely win game 6.

Roberts straight up sent Pages to the bench despite him being a 27 homer hitter in the regular season. Schneider didn't even have to bench Varsho here. Just ride the hot hand. Awful lineup decision that's gonna get forgotten because it's so much easier to focus on single plays. Roberts straight up out-managed Schneider here.

Varsho had an .804 OPS in the playoffs going into game 6, was on a 3 game hitting streak (and had gotten hits in 6 of his last 7 games) and had been a better hitter than Barger and Clement all season. I wouldn't have had a huge problem with it, but I don't think that decision is anywhere near as obvious as you're making it out to be.

What I do think was obvious is that Lukes (a worse hitter in both the regular season and playoffs than Varsho) should have been out of the #2 spot and never even got moved at all. That was far more impactful given how the Dodgers began pitching around/walking Springer to face him. Schneider isn't the one responsible for setting lineups either. That's solely on the FO.

[Randle McMurphy]

As discussed, Dodgers have the lead in the 4th inning on Saturday night if Varsho wasn't in the outfield. Probably would have went on to roll us.

He could have saved everybody a lot of heartbreak if he hadn't made that miraculous catch. We can definitely agree that was a big mistake from him.

Yet you keep ignoring the point that had numbnuts hit well in the series before game 7, game 7 wouldnt be needed. But you keep dodging that cuz it doesn’t fit your narrative.

I don’t care what Moreno or Gurriel are doing. They’re not our players, Varsho is. So stop using them to justify the crappiness of Varsho. I only care about the fact that Varsho is a terrible hitter with a terrible arm who cost us the World Series. F. U. C. K Varsho.

The Varsho lovers are continually bringing up Gurriel and Moreno to distract from the fact that their hero singlehandedly cost us the World Series by being absolute trash at the plate. By being a 5 foot 8 Human Feces that could not hit a Beach Ball to save his life by getting on base. I am like you. I could care less how Gurriel and Moreno are doing in Arizona. I said so earlier. Let's not discuss about Gurriel and Moreno who were probably in Cancun partying the last month. I simply cared about the fact that this 5 foot 8 Human Feces called Noodle Arm Varsho cost this City and Country a World Series Title, by being the most pathetic hitter I have ever seen try to hit a baseball in a World Series with men on base.

The True Dodgers MVP that should have celebrated today in LA. This series would have ended in 5 games, or 6 Games at the latest- if your Number 5 hitter was simply decent and not utter trash like Noodle Arm Varsho. F*** this 5 foot 8 Human Feces, and let last Saturday be the last time I ever see this piece of garbage in a Jays uniform. I had booked off work tomorrow fully expecting to see a World Series Parade, and Noodle Arm Varsho cost me that joy. I will never forgive that Piece of Garbage for robbing me of the joy of seeing a World Series Parade as an Adult.

[brwnman]

As discussed, Dodgers have the lead in the 4th inning on Saturday night if Varsho wasn't in the outfield. Probably would have went on to roll us.

He could have saved everybody a lot of heartbreak if he hadn't made that miraculous catch. We can definitely agree that was a big mistake from him.

Yet you keep ignoring the point that had numbnuts hit well in the series before game 7, game 7 wouldnt be needed. But you keep dodging that cuz it doesn’t fit your narrative.

I don’t care what Moreno or Gurriel are doing. They’re not our players, Varsho is. So stop using them to justify the crappiness of Varsho. I only care about the fact that Varsho is a terrible hitter with a terrible arm who cost us the World Series. F. U. C. K Varsho.

Oh, I'd argue that the Jays don't even win game 1 (and therefore even get to a game 7) without Varsho's HR off Snell when he was dominating them. First HR Snell had allowed to a LHB all season long. He completely shifted the momentum of that game and led to Snell getting pulled for a bad bullpen.

He had a few unlucky ABs for sure in the last couple of games, but Varsho is a very good hitter and elite defender who was one of the biggest contributors to the Jays' best season in a generation. It's unhealthy to have such hatred for a player like that.

You can argue, but you’d be wrong. Momentum is as good as the next pitch in baseball. Jays won the game 11-4. 9-4 without Varsho’s homerun.

And this ‘very good hitter’ is a below major league average hitter the last 3 years.

[brwnman]

Two quality players? They traded one year of Gurriel, which had very little value at all considering he's a bad defensive outfielder with only a career 109 wRC+. After that, he became a free agent and he was open to anybody to sign (including the Jays, who could have easily brought him back had they chose to). Arizona then gave him a really bad contract and would trade him away for a bag of balls at this point if they could.

If you're really hanging your hat on Lourdes to redeem this one (who barely had any value when the Jays dumped him and has negative value now), you know you've already lost.

Once again, twisting my words and moving the goal posts. But that's what always you do. Its one of your many unsavoury posting traits which led to you being banned from RealGM in the first place before reappearing as Randle - like you were fooling us.

I am not hanging my hat on Lourdes. I am only pointing out that he rightfuilly should be considered when we're evaluating the trade with Arizona. For some reason you want to exclude Gurriel Jr from the conversation which makes no sense to everyone not named Randle.

Gurriel Jr was a valuable piece in the Diamondbacks 2023 playoff run. In the 2023 post season, Gurriel Jr hit .273 with 3 HR, 11 RBI and a .744 OPS. While in the 2025 post season, Varsho hit .227 with 3 HR, 10 RBI and a .711 OPS. So your 'trade winner' Varsho performed marginally worse in the post season than Gurriel Jr. who you deem as having barely any value.

Lourdes’ one mediocre season under Arizona’s control was and has been considered back in 2023. Then he became a free agent and the DBacks handed him a terrible contract that nobody in baseball would willingly take on right now.

Even if you’re giving Arizona credit for more than one year of Lourdes control as part of the trade (which makes little sense), this isn’t a point in Arizona’s favour, which is why even the most ardent Varsho haters haven’t brought him up in this thread for over a year now.

Try again.

Lourdes’ one mediocre year, he had a higher fWAR than Varsho. Could I please get your take on Varsho’s year in 2023?

[C Court]

The Jays got the best player in the trade. The Jays chose the better catcher of the two. The Jays won the American League and had their best season in three decades due to their enormous contributions (they were #2 and #3 in WAR rate for the 2025 Jays).

In what world is any of that not an enormous win for the Jays?

Oh man, you got me there!

Varsho’s presence in the line-up is pretty much the only reason (or one of the primary reasons) the Jays won the American League and had their best season in decades. I'm sure we can prove your hypothesis by simply looking at how the Jays winning percentage dropped dramatically when Varsho was out of the line-up and how it significantly surged when Varsho was on the field.

Except, the facts are that the Blue Jays win percentage is virtually identical, with or without Varsho in the line-up.

Without Varsho - 52-39 - .571
With Varsho - 51-38 - .573

So Varsho didn't significantly change the Blue Jays win percentage when he was in the line-up. The Jays real win/loss record means more than your favorite fantasy WAR numbers

So your argument is that because the team also was good without Varsho that he wasn’t one of their most valuable players? What if Vlad or Springer just happened to hit better in the games he was missing? What if Hoffman had one of his good stretches where he wasn’t blowing games twice a week in that time (and he did, see April)? Does that get attributed to a lack of Varsho?

Feels like you could use a refresher course on basic logic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

Take a readthrough and come back with something that actually proves your point (which is apparently that Varsho wasn’t a very good or valuable player for the Jays while hitting 23 HR in 70+ games and playing elite CF defense with the 3rd best WAR rate on the team). Good luck.

See, you love to gaslight by telling me things I never said. Clever, but stupid.

I never said that Varsho wasn't a very good player. I said that the Jays' record was the same with and without Varsho. Now you dismiss that, because it doesn't support your hard-wired bias.

You conveniently overlook that I am referring to a large sample size which is evenly split - 91 games without Varsho and 89 games with Varsho - a total of 180 games. That is a large enough sample to account for various line-ups and the postive/negative impact of other players. Is is an exact measure? No, but it provides a reasonable measure of Varsho's impact on wins/losses.

You love to mention various forms of WAR. Yet, they are far from exact and are calculated with a combination of hard stats and human opinion. Everything has to be put into context. You have repeatedly called Varsho the Jays MVP, yet I don't believe many in MLB insiders would share that opinion.

https://medium.com/@michaelpeereboom04/why-you-shouldnt-trust-war-the-stat-18998a138efc

Now is where we get to explaining what makes WAR a non-definitive stat. While I do truly believe it is an excellent stat for summarizing value, it should never be used as definitive proof for comparisons. There are two main issues with the stat, and we’ll begin with the most important one: Defense. Ever since the inception of the statistic, it has used DRS (Defensive Runs Saved) as the metric for grading defense. With DRS, the context is more important that the play itself.

[Randle McMurphy]

Read on Twitter

All true.

[Randle McMurphy]

See, you love to gaslight by telling me things I never said. Clever, but stupid.

I never said that Varsho wasn't a very good player. I said that the Jays' record was the same with and without Varsho. Now you dismiss that, because it doesn't support your hard-wired bias.

You conveniently overlook that I am referring to a large sample size which is evenly split - 91 games without Varsho and 89 games with Varsho - a total of 180 games. That is a large enough sample to account for various line-ups and the postive/negative impact of other players. Is is an exact measure? No, but it provides a reasonable measure of Varsho's impact on wins/losses.

You love to mention various forms of WAR. Yet, they are far from exact and are calculated with a combination of hard stats and human opinion. Everything has to be put into context. You have repeatedly called Varsho the Jays MVP, yet I don't believe many in MLB insiders would share that opinion.

https://medium.com/@michaelpeereboom04/why-you-shouldnt-trust-war-the-stat-18998a138efc

Now is where we get to explaining what makes WAR a non-definitive stat. While I do truly believe it is an excellent stat for summarizing value, it should never be used as definitive proof for comparisons. There are two main issues with the stat, and we’ll begin with the most important one: Defense. Ever since the inception of the statistic, it has used DRS (Defensive Runs Saved) as the metric for grading defense. With DRS, the context is more important that the play itself.

So your point is that Varsho is a very good player who had a very good year but somehow didn't impact winning because the team was also good without him and stepped up in his absence? What if his teammates all hit slightly better in those games he was injured in than they did while he was there? Is that on Varsho?

The Jays lost 4 of Gausman's 5 starts in the playoffs despite him not having a single bad start statistically in the postseason. Was it his fault that the team didn't score enough runs for him in those games? Following your correlation=causation logic, he wasn't a valuable pitcher in the playoffs for the Jays because he lost them.

Not only is looking at a team's record with a player not a reasonable measure of evaluating one player's value, it really makes no sense at all given the nature of this sport.

[C Court]

Read on Twitter

All true.

[Randle McMurphy]

Read on Twitter

All true.

It's certainly true that's an emotional reaction that ignores the greater context of the Jays' season, postseason, World Series as a whole, and game 7 of the WS.

As noted, the Jays don't even make it to game 7 or have a lead in that game without his contributions.

[brwnman]

Read on Twitter

All true.

It's certainly true that's an emotional reaction that ignores the greater context of the Jays' season, postseason, World Series as a whole, and game 7 of the WS.

As noted, the Jays don't even make it to game 7 or have a lead in that game without his contributions.

All true.

Jays win in 5 against Seattle and in 5 against the Dodgers.

[brwnman]

Once again, twisting my words and moving the goal posts. But that's what always you do. Its one of your many unsavoury posting traits which led to you being banned from RealGM in the first place before reappearing as Randle - like you were fooling us.

I am not hanging my hat on Lourdes. I am only pointing out that he rightfuilly should be considered when we're evaluating the trade with Arizona. For some reason you want to exclude Gurriel Jr from the conversation which makes no sense to everyone not named Randle.

Gurriel Jr was a valuable piece in the Diamondbacks 2023 playoff run. In the 2023 post season, Gurriel Jr hit .273 with 3 HR, 11 RBI and a .744 OPS. While in the 2025 post season, Varsho hit .227 with 3 HR, 10 RBI and a .711 OPS. So your 'trade winner' Varsho performed marginally worse in the post season than Gurriel Jr. who you deem as having barely any value.

Lourdes’ one mediocre season under Arizona’s control was and has been considered back in 2023. Then he became a free agent and the DBacks handed him a terrible contract that nobody in baseball would willingly take on right now.

Even if you’re giving Arizona credit for more than one year of Lourdes control as part of the trade (which makes little sense), this isn’t a point in Arizona’s favour, which is why even the most ardent Varsho haters haven’t brought him up in this thread for over a year now.

Try again.

Lourdes’ one mediocre year, he had a higher fWAR than Varsho. Could I please get your take on Varsho’s year in 2023?

Hi Randle,

I’d really like your take here. Thanks!

[Randle McMurphy]

3.6 rWAR for Varsho in 2023, far surpassing the now washed Gurriel in that statistic that year.

Even in what was clearly an aberration year for him offensively (84 wRC+ compared to 99 wRC+ in 2024/123 wRC+ in 2025 and 99 wRC+), he was still 4th among position players in value that year for the Jays. Speaks to his tremendous defensive value.

[brwnman]

3.6 rWAR for Varsho in 2023, far surpassing the now washed Gurriel in that statistic that year.

Even in what was clearly an aberration year for him offensively (84 wRC+ compared to 99 wRC+ in 2024/123 wRC+ in 2025 and 99 wRC+), he was still 4th among position players in value that year for the Jays. Speaks to his tremendous defensive value.

Hi Randle,

Why are using a different metric now than the one you brought up for Varsho earlier in the thread? Doesn’t it make sense to use fWAR?