What is a fair return for Ben Simmons?

Moderators: HartfordWhalers, Trader_Joe, loserX, pacers33granger, Mamba4Goat, Andre Roberstan, Texas Chuck

DB43
Sophomore
Posts: 237
And1: 152
Joined: Jun 14, 2017
 

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#41 » by DB43 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:39 pm

Culver is looking like another Josh Jackson in the making. I don't think he will end up being all that good. But that is neither here, nor there.

You don't get a 5 year deal, from a walking triple double all star, for Culver and 2 firsts. That is all I'm saying. the 76ers are built to win now. Even if you take out Ben Simmons. They want a win now player coming back. Not culver and some picks.
rugbyrugger23
General Manager
Posts: 8,930
And1: 1,074
Joined: Jun 07, 2011

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#42 » by rugbyrugger23 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:42 pm

DB43 wrote:Culver is looking like another Josh Jackson in the making. I don't think he will end up being all that good. But that is neither here, nor there.

You don't get a 5 year deal, from a walking triple double all star, for Culver and 2 firsts. That is all I'm saying. the 76ers are built to win now. Even if you take out Ben Simmons. They want a win now player coming back. Not culver and some picks.

Well to be precise - Culver and 3 picks — and Culver isn’t even the highlight of said package.

If you think Simmons is worth more — fair take to have. Not sure about that. But not the point of any back and forth prior.
BullyKing
Forum Mod - 76ers
Forum Mod - 76ers
Posts: 10,055
And1: 9,289
Joined: Jan 16, 2014

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#43 » by BullyKing » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:51 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:BK is absolutely correct with regards to the picks in question. The one point that goes Rugby's way is that we have seen the Lakers historically be one of the best franchises in the league. Even if Lebron ages out, there is at least a chance they can pivot and not be surrendering premium picks. They likely would as we saw after Kobe aged out--picking #2 overall 3 years in a row. But it's possible. We've seen essentially nothing out of Minnesota that suggests other than having a top 15 all-time guy in KG that they can win. In fact they went 3 straight years with a healthy prime KG and couldn't make the playoffs.

If I was choosing which teams unprotected 1sts to own, Minnesota might be my top pick. They'd without question be in the top 5. Historical failure means something.


No disagreement that there's the risk that the Lakers quickly rebuild in the middle part of this decade is definitely something that needs to be factored into the value. The issue always exists that a team trading its picks for a star is simultaneously downgrading the value of those very picks. The Lakers picks are a perfect storm where the contender they are trading the picks to build will naturally age out while those picks come due.
NYSixersFan wrote:
the plan is to get as good as quickly as possible....I fully believe we could have been a borderline playoff team last year by adding young veterans....using or draft picks and cap space.....can I specifically tell you who? no.
User avatar
Texas Chuck
Senior Mod - Mavericks and NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - Mavericks and NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 49,685
And1: 34,349
Joined: May 19, 2012
         

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#44 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:00 pm

BullyKing wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:BK is absolutely correct with regards to the picks in question. The one point that goes Rugby's way is that we have seen the Lakers historically be one of the best franchises in the league. Even if Lebron ages out, there is at least a chance they can pivot and not be surrendering premium picks. They likely would as we saw after Kobe aged out--picking #2 overall 3 years in a row. But it's possible. We've seen essentially nothing out of Minnesota that suggests other than having a top 15 all-time guy in KG that they can win. In fact they went 3 straight years with a healthy prime KG and couldn't make the playoffs.

If I was choosing which teams unprotected 1sts to own, Minnesota might be my top pick. They'd without question be in the top 5. Historical failure means something.


No disagreement that there's the risk that the Lakers quickly rebuild in the middle part of this decade is definitely something that needs to be factored into the value. The issue always exists that a team trading its picks for a star is simultaneously downgrading the value of those very picks. The Lakers picks are a perfect storm where the contender they are trading the picks to build will naturally age out while those picks come due.



yeah it's scary to think that Zion could be entering his prime and the Pels could have very valuable draft picks to trade for another star around him. Pels are really positioned to be a huge problem in the West if Zion can stay healthy and they make sensible decisions around him.

It's one of the reasons I really need Dallas to get it right when they try and add that 2nd star to Luka in 18 months.
FNQ wrote: Once JJ is healed, the Mavs Big 3 are gonna be something..
BullyKing
Forum Mod - 76ers
Forum Mod - 76ers
Posts: 10,055
And1: 9,289
Joined: Jan 16, 2014

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#45 » by BullyKing » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:12 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
BullyKing wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:BK is absolutely correct with regards to the picks in question. The one point that goes Rugby's way is that we have seen the Lakers historically be one of the best franchises in the league. Even if Lebron ages out, there is at least a chance they can pivot and not be surrendering premium picks. They likely would as we saw after Kobe aged out--picking #2 overall 3 years in a row. But it's possible. We've seen essentially nothing out of Minnesota that suggests other than having a top 15 all-time guy in KG that they can win. In fact they went 3 straight years with a healthy prime KG and couldn't make the playoffs.

If I was choosing which teams unprotected 1sts to own, Minnesota might be my top pick. They'd without question be in the top 5. Historical failure means something.


No disagreement that there's the risk that the Lakers quickly rebuild in the middle part of this decade is definitely something that needs to be factored into the value. The issue always exists that a team trading its picks for a star is simultaneously downgrading the value of those very picks. The Lakers picks are a perfect storm where the contender they are trading the picks to build will naturally age out while those picks come due.



yeah it's scary to think that Zion could be entering his prime and the Pels could have very valuable draft picks to trade for another star around him. Pels are really positioned to be a huge problem in the West if Zion can stay healthy and they make sensible decisions around him.

It's one of the reasons I really need Dallas to get it right when they try and add that 2nd star to Luka in 18 months.


This is one of the most fascinating story lines for me over the next couple of years: essentially what is their lesson learned from the AD situation. On the hand, they could come away thinking that you don't know how long you will have a star so you need to build a winner around them as soon as possible. On the other hand, that precise line of thinking is what led to AD wanting out IMO. The constant trading of 1st round picks to make a push for the 8th seed is what really hamstrung them from having the ability to actually build a winner around AD.

Candidly, I don't think they are off to a great start in that regard. They've already hemorrhaged a decent amount of Holiday's value. I'm typically against spending cap space for the sake of having veterans (Redick, Favors) instead of trading that space for future assets but I'm less down on it in this case given that they already have such a pick chest.
NYSixersFan wrote:
the plan is to get as good as quickly as possible....I fully believe we could have been a borderline playoff team last year by adding young veterans....using or draft picks and cap space.....can I specifically tell you who? no.
cjmcallist
Freshman
Posts: 58
And1: 11
Joined: Jul 27, 2018

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#46 » by cjmcallist » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:21 pm

chitownsalesmen wrote:
cjmcallist wrote:
expatbayern wrote:I've said before I would do McCollum, Collins, and two firsts, which I think is one of the strongest offers Philly could hope for, but I doubt the Portland FO would make that aggressive of a move.



That seems like a good offer.

OKC would try to outbid if possible. Curious to see how POR/OKC can match up offers. Would have to be after the league year rolls over.

OKC starts with C. Paul, but could be talked into Gallinari. Though, it might make sense to maximize PHI's roster with Paul instead of another forward next to Harris and Horford.

PHI sends:
B. Simmons
M. Scott

PHI receives:
C. Paul
2021 OKC 1st (unp.)
2022 LAC 1st (unp.)
2023 MIA 1st (lot. prot, but rolls)
2024 HOU 1st (top 4 prot.)


Thats a really, really like genuinely awful trade for Philly.



I'm guessing you think LAC, MIA, and HOU will be very good through those years?

At face value, an All Star and four first round picks (two unprotected) is hardly an awful trade offer. But could be wrong, would love for you to elaborate though.

Edit: format fail
BullyKing
Forum Mod - 76ers
Forum Mod - 76ers
Posts: 10,055
And1: 9,289
Joined: Jan 16, 2014

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#47 » by BullyKing » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:25 pm

cjmcallist wrote:
chitownsalesmen wrote:
cjmcallist wrote:

That seems like a good offer.

OKC would try to outbid if possible. Curious to see how POR/OKC can match up offers. Would have to be after the league year rolls over.

OKC starts with C. Paul, but could be talked into Gallinari. Though, it might make sense to maximize PHI's roster with Paul instead of another forward next to Harris and Horford.

PHI sends:
B. Simmons
M. Scott

PHI receives:
C. Paul
2021 OKC 1st (unp.)
2022 LAC 1st (unp.)
2023 MIA 1st (lot. prot, but rolls)
2024 HOU 1st (top 4 prot.)


Thats a really, really like genuinely awful trade for Philly.



I'm guessing you think LAC, MIA, and HOU will be very good through those years?

At face value, an All Star and four first round picks (two unprotected) is hardly an awful trade offer. But could be wrong, would love for you to elaborate though.

Edit: format fail


Not directed to me but I'll answer anyway. You simply cannot trade a 23 year old 2x old star signed for five years for a package that doesn't included a single guaranteed premium asset. Who knows what Houston will look like in four years for example but you just cannot take the risk.
NYSixersFan wrote:
the plan is to get as good as quickly as possible....I fully believe we could have been a borderline playoff team last year by adding young veterans....using or draft picks and cap space.....can I specifically tell you who? no.
cjmcallist
Freshman
Posts: 58
And1: 11
Joined: Jul 27, 2018

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#48 » by cjmcallist » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:37 pm

BullyKing wrote:
cjmcallist wrote:
chitownsalesmen wrote:
Thats a really, really like genuinely awful trade for Philly.



I'm guessing you think LAC, MIA, and HOU will be very good through those years?

At face value, an All Star and four first round picks (two unprotected) is hardly an awful trade offer. But could be wrong, would love for you to elaborate though.

Edit: format fail


Not directed to me but I'll answer anyway. You simply cannot trade a 23 year old 2x old star signed for five years for a package that doesn't included a single guaranteed premium asset. Who knows what Houston will look like in four years for example but you just cannot take the risk.



Thanks for the reply. I like this conversation. How do you define a premium asset. In the AD trade, would you have considered the #4 overall pick the "premium" asset?
BullyKing
Forum Mod - 76ers
Forum Mod - 76ers
Posts: 10,055
And1: 9,289
Joined: Jan 16, 2014

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#49 » by BullyKing » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:48 pm

cjmcallist wrote:
BullyKing wrote:
cjmcallist wrote:

I'm guessing you think LAC, MIA, and HOU will be very good through those years?

At face value, an All Star and four first round picks (two unprotected) is hardly an awful trade offer. But could be wrong, would love for you to elaborate though.

Edit: format fail


Not directed to me but I'll answer anyway. You simply cannot trade a 23 year old 2x old star signed for five years for a package that doesn't included a single guaranteed premium asset. Who knows what Houston will look like in four years for example but you just cannot take the risk.



Thanks for the reply. I like this conversation. How do you define a premium asset. In the AD trade, would you have considered the #4 overall pick the "premium" asset?


I think it was "a" premium asset. I'm also bullish on the picks they received because they have deferral options and the like. I'm not going to pretend like I saw this Ingram breakout coming but the young players from the Lakers are had some value though I didn't consider any of them premium assets at the time.
NYSixersFan wrote:
the plan is to get as good as quickly as possible....I fully believe we could have been a borderline playoff team last year by adding young veterans....using or draft picks and cap space.....can I specifically tell you who? no.
rugbyrugger23
General Manager
Posts: 8,930
And1: 1,074
Joined: Jun 07, 2011

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#50 » by rugbyrugger23 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:36 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:BK is absolutely correct with regards to the picks in question. The one point that goes Rugby's way is that we have seen the Lakers historically be one of the best franchises in the league. Even if Lebron ages out, there is at least a chance they can pivot and not be surrendering premium picks. They likely would as we saw after Kobe aged out--picking #2 overall 3 years in a row. But it's possible. We've seen essentially nothing out of Minnesota that suggests other than having a top 15 all-time guy in KG that they can win. In fact they went 3 straight years with a healthy prime KG and couldn't make the playoffs.

If I was choosing which teams unprotected 1sts to own, Minnesota might be my top pick. They'd without question be in the top 5. Historical failure means something.

Even if James ages out by 24/25, they have Davis and cap space. Unless you think Davis will bolt after 4 years in LA.

I think without a doubt the 2022 of Wolves is worth more than Lakers 2022.

Is Nets #15 in 2020 worth more than Lakers of 2024/25? I think so — but that is 4-5 year in the making argument. So let’s say who cares. :)
rugbyrugger23
General Manager
Posts: 8,930
And1: 1,074
Joined: Jun 07, 2011

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#51 » by rugbyrugger23 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:35 am

To Philly: Beal + Wolves 2020 Top 4 FRP (PGOF)

To Wizards: Culver + JJ + Nets 2020 FRP (#16) + Wolves 2022 FRP (unprotected) + Wolves 2024 FRP (lightly protected)

To Wolves: Simmons + Scott



Philly gets Beal and Top 4 FRP for Simmons. They set themselves for win-now and even consolidation trade.
C: Embiid | Horford
F: Horford | Harris
F: Harris | Thybulle
G: Richardson | Beal
G: Beal | PGOF

Wizards replace Beal with Culver and a bunch of draft capital. They can ride out Wall contract or see what free agency delivers and explore future consolidation trade themselves.

Wolves now trade 4x FRP and Culver for Simmons. Damn that is a lot.
C: Towns
F: Gomez | Spellman
F: Simmons
G: Okogie | Beasley
G: Russell
HartfordWhalers
Senior Mod - 76ers and NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - 76ers and NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 40,366
And1: 15,394
Joined: Apr 07, 2010
   

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#52 » by HartfordWhalers » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:18 am

rugbyrugger23 wrote:To Philly: Beal + Wolves 2020 Top 4 FRP (PGOF)

To Wizards: Culver + JJ + Nets 2020 FRP (#16) + Wolves 2022 FRP (unprotected) + Wolves 2024 FRP (lightly protected)

To Wolves: Simmons + Scott



Philly gets Beal and Top 4 FRP for Simmons. They set themselves for win-now and even consolidation trade.
C: Embiid | Horford
F: Horford | Harris
F: Harris | Thybulle
G: Richardson | Beal
G: Beal | PGOF

Wizards replace Beal with Culver and a bunch of draft capital. They can ride out Wall contract or see what free agency delivers and explore future consolidation trade themselves.

Wolves now trade 4x FRP and Culver for Simmons. Damn that is a lot.
C: Towns
F: Gomez | Spellman
F: Simmons
G: Okogie | Beasley
G: Russell


Did stepien rules go away?
Ruzious
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 39,277
And1: 5,974
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#53 » by Ruzious » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:24 pm

expatbayern wrote:I've said before I would do McCollum, Collins, and two firsts, which I think is one of the strongest offers Philly could hope for, but I doubt the Portland FO would make that aggressive of a move.

I think you need a better centerpiece than McCollum to get a player like Simmons.
"Look, you never know when you may need to borrow a cup of sugar, maybe some milk or a handgun" - Dan C. from Texas
User avatar
Reign23
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,678
And1: 2,472
Joined: Dec 29, 2014
Location: Regensburg, Germany.
   

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#54 » by Reign23 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:45 pm

Colbinii wrote:Washington 2020 1st + Beal


wait, what? I would do this in a heartbeat if I'm philly.
formerly known as knickst4pe
Colbinii
RealGM
Posts: 14,953
And1: 8,048
Joined: Feb 13, 2013

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#55 » by Colbinii » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:04 pm

Reign23 wrote:
Colbinii wrote:Washington 2020 1st + Beal


wait, what? I would do this in a heartbeat if I'm philly.


Well that's because you think Beal and Simmons are close.
tsherkin wrote:Locked due to absence of adult conversation.


penbeast0 wrote:Guys, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.


E-Balla wrote:LeBron is Jeff George.
User avatar
gambitx777
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,824
And1: 520
Joined: Dec 18, 2012

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#56 » by gambitx777 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:37 am

I wouldn't if I were the wizards. Not saying anything about the value. But I am not a Simmons fan personally. Dudes fine but can't shoot at all. Even if he was a sup par shooter the way he plays.but he won't even try....
Reign23 wrote:
Colbinii wrote:Washington 2020 1st + Beal


wait, what? I would do this in a heartbeat if I'm philly.


Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app
Sportfan73
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,996
And1: 414
Joined: Jun 18, 2015
   

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#57 » by Sportfan73 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:35 am

Lot of y’all don’t realize just how good he is at everything else. We’re talking if the increased aggression (7+ fta pg) with 70+% from the line continues and he even becomes a 32% three point shooter he will be a top 3 player. Immediately
Djh7475
Pro Prospect
Posts: 831
And1: 351
Joined: Jul 27, 2016

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#58 » by Djh7475 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:14 pm

If I was Philly, I would trade Embiid before Simmons, but Simmons has a lot more value than most of what has been offered. As a Celtics fan, I prefer Tatum over Simmons (it’s preference and probably a little bit of bias), but I think it’d take a guy like Tatum to get him. It would take a young all-star with 2-way superstar potential to get Philly interested in giving up theirs. There is no Zion in the upcoming draft, so I don’t see draft picks being the central haul in a Simmons deal, and players as good or almost as good as him at his age or younger can be counted on one hand.
VDT
Rookie
Posts: 1,170
And1: 669
Joined: Oct 13, 2018

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#59 » by VDT » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:01 pm

Yea, Sixers are trying to win now and the reason to make a trade would be to upgrade either in talent or in fit (while getting similar talent back). They are not interested in breaking Simmons into multiple pieces or getting picks.
Chris76
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,958
And1: 315
Joined: May 06, 2017
   

Re: What is a fair return for Ben Simmons? 

Post#60 » by Chris76 » Yesterday 6:32 pm

Sportfan73 wrote:Lot of y’all don’t realize just how good he is at everything else. We’re talking if the increased aggression (7+ fta pg) with 70+% from the line continues and he even becomes a 32% three point shooter he will be a top 3 player. Immediately


I agree Simmons has taken a step forward offensively, recently. He is averaging around 25pts a game on efficient dunks and he still gets open 3s for his teammates. Also, his defense has been great.

Return to Trades and Transactions