Trade Targets (postcript on yesterday-other teams)

[skywalker33]

Seems to me you guys just need to deaft Delon Wright...he's 6'5, a good passer and plays stout defense....he could play off of Knight, switch at the defensive end...make great sense to me and he could be had at about your slot in the draft.

[LUKE23]

I love Wright outside of two things:

1. His age
2. His 3 point shooting

Both those things said, I wouldn't be pissed if we took him. There is a lot to like.

[ampd]

DMO is pretty valuable to the Rockets at this point.

Yeah I know. If we're not getting something like DMO back for Knight I'd rather just keep him than draft Frank Kaminsky.

[LUKE23]

Yeah I know. If we're not getting something of real value back for Knight I'd rather just keep him than draft Frank Kaminsky.

Do you really believe Kaminsky will be our best available option at 13/14? I mean come on.

[HurricaneKid]

Lowe:

Brandon Knight has had a nice season, but he’s a notch below these guys at creating shots for teammates. Opponents have blitzed the Bucks with Knight on the floor; Milwaukee’s strong bench has been perhaps the most important ingredient in the team’s .500 record.

May I ask what you are getting at with this?

Seems only intuitive that a starting lineup of Knight, Middleton, Giannis, Ersan, and Zaza is going to be a bad starting lineup stat wise.

Bucks and VORP
Knight 2.9
Middleton 1.7
Dudley 1.6
Zaza 1.3
Giannis 1.2
Sanders 1.0
Henson .9
Mayo .5
Parker .5
Ersan .2
Bayless .1
Martin -.1
Wolters -.2
Marshall -.3
O'Bryant -.6

VORP has widely been used as a primary stat to analyze a player and their talents, and when converted to WARP and compared to PER, helps you properly rank players. Using these tools as comparison points, Knight and Middleton are the only Bucks who grade as starting NBA talents. It should also be worth noting that Zaza, Giannis, Dudley, Henson, and Ersan all grade as elite bench players.

You cannot seriously use VORP. No one uses VORP. Its the same box score amalgam that PER, etc are. The issue with Knight isn't his box score. Its that everyone that plays next to him sees their production slide because of him. His impact on RAPM is significantly lesser than his statistical line. Moving around which box score amalgam you want to cite doesn't change this.

[ampd]

Yeah I know. If we're not getting something of real value back for Knight I'd rather just keep him than draft Frank Kaminsky.

Do you really believe Kaminsky will be our best available option at 13/14? I mean come on.

I'd still have to think about it if I could guarantee it was Tyus Jones. Really none of the guys projected to be available at that point blows me away as a pro prospect. Which is pretty normal for the late lotto.

I don't think trading Knight essentially straight up for the kind of player that usually results from the 13/14 pick (which is usually more like John Henson or Jeremy Lamb than Giannis) is getting good value for him.

[emunney]

Lowe:

May I ask what you are getting at with this?

Seems only intuitive that a starting lineup of Knight, Middleton, Giannis, Ersan, and Zaza is going to be a bad starting lineup stat wise.

Bucks and VORP
Knight 2.9
Middleton 1.7
Dudley 1.6
Zaza 1.3
Giannis 1.2
Sanders 1.0
Henson .9
Mayo .5
Parker .5
Ersan .2
Bayless .1
Martin -.1
Wolters -.2
Marshall -.3
O'Bryant -.6

VORP has widely been used as a primary stat to analyze a player and their talents, and when converted to WARP and compared to PER, helps you properly rank players. Using these tools as comparison points, Knight and Middleton are the only Bucks who grade as starting NBA talents. It should also be worth noting that Zaza, Giannis, Dudley, Henson, and Ersan all grade as elite bench players.

You cannot seriously use VORP. No one uses VORP. Its the same box score amalgam that PER, etc are. The issue with Knight isn't his box score. Its that everyone that plays next to him sees their production slide because of him. His impact on RAPM is significantly lesser than his statistical line. Moving around which box score amalgam you want to cite doesn't change this.

Some scouts and analysts use VORP.

[HurricaneKid]

DMO is pretty valuable to the Rockets at this point.

What in the world is that rotation going to look like when Jones comes back (probably Wednesday!?)?

Is JSmoove really going to fall completely out? I don't think so...

[LUKE23]

I'd still have to think about it if I could guarantee it was Tyus Jones. Really none of the guys projected to be available at that point blows me away as a pro prospect. Which is pretty normal for the late lotto.

I'd disagree, that's a no brainer. Swap Knight for Jones, keep our pick to land another piece and have an extra $10M+ per to play with the next four years.

[HurricaneKid]

May I ask what you are getting at with this?

Seems only intuitive that a starting lineup of Knight, Middleton, Giannis, Ersan, and Zaza is going to be a bad starting lineup stat wise.

Bucks and VORP
Knight 2.9
Middleton 1.7
Dudley 1.6
Zaza 1.3
Giannis 1.2
Sanders 1.0
Henson .9
Mayo .5
Parker .5
Ersan .2
Bayless .1
Martin -.1
Wolters -.2
Marshall -.3
O'Bryant -.6

VORP has widely been used as a primary stat to analyze a player and their talents, and when converted to WARP and compared to PER, helps you properly rank players. Using these tools as comparison points, Knight and Middleton are the only Bucks who grade as starting NBA talents. It should also be worth noting that Zaza, Giannis, Dudley, Henson, and Ersan all grade as elite bench players.

You cannot seriously use VORP. No one uses VORP. Its the same box score amalgam that PER, etc are. The issue with Knight isn't his box score. Its that everyone that plays next to him sees their production slide because of him. His impact on RAPM is significantly lesser than his statistical line. Moving around which box score amalgam you want to cite doesn't change this.

Some scouts and analysts use VORP.

The point is its a box score amalgam. So people supporting Knight have given up quoting his line because his impact is repeatedly used to counter that argument. So now instead of throwing up a slash line you are just using another format for the same numbers.

[ReasonablySober]

May I ask what you are getting at with this?

Seems only intuitive that a starting lineup of Knight, Middleton, Giannis, Ersan, and Zaza is going to be a bad starting lineup stat wise.

Bucks and VORP
Knight 2.9
Middleton 1.7
Dudley 1.6
Zaza 1.3
Giannis 1.2
Sanders 1.0
Henson .9
Mayo .5
Parker .5
Ersan .2
Bayless .1
Martin -.1
Wolters -.2
Marshall -.3
O'Bryant -.6

VORP has widely been used as a primary stat to analyze a player and their talents, and when converted to WARP and compared to PER, helps you properly rank players. Using these tools as comparison points, Knight and Middleton are the only Bucks who grade as starting NBA talents. It should also be worth noting that Zaza, Giannis, Dudley, Henson, and Ersan all grade as elite bench players.

You cannot seriously use VORP. No one uses VORP. Its the same box score amalgam that PER, etc are. The issue with Knight isn't his box score. Its that everyone that plays next to him sees their production slide because of him. His impact on RAPM is significantly lesser than his statistical line. Moving around which box score amalgam you want to cite doesn't change this.

Some scouts and analysts use VORP.

Name them.

[ampd]

I'd still have to think about it if I could guarantee it was Tyus Jones. Really none of the guys projected to be available at that point blows me away as a pro prospect. Which is pretty normal for the late lotto.

I'd disagree, that's a no brainer. Swap Knight for Jones, keep our pick to land another piece and have an extra $10M+ per to play with the next four years.

I know most of our disagreement comes from me having a higher value on Knight, but I just don't think picks in the late lotto are all that valuable in most drafts. When you get a guy like Giannis or Faried it looks great, but for every one of those there are a whole lot of Xaveir Henry, Luke Babbit, Cole Aldrich, Austin Rivers, Royce White, Jeremy Lamb types.

Most of the time guys like Tyus Jones turn into the Shane Larkin / John Henson / etc of the NBA, not guys you would trade a player like Knight for.

Then again, maybe this is the 2011 draft, and its 20 deep with decent starters, but right now I don't see it.

I can see the argument that the real value of trading Knight is our pick gets better this year, but from what I understand, many of the people advocating this sort of deal think we'd improve without him.

[emunney]

You cannot seriously use VORP. No one uses VORP. Its the same box score amalgam that PER, etc are. The issue with Knight isn't his box score. Its that everyone that plays next to him sees their production slide because of him. His impact on RAPM is significantly lesser than his statistical line. Moving around which box score amalgam you want to cite doesn't change this.

Some scouts and analysts use VORP.

Name them.

viewtopic.php?p=42478095#p42478095

[emunney]

You cannot seriously use VORP. No one uses VORP. Its the same box score amalgam that PER, etc are. The issue with Knight isn't his box score. Its that everyone that plays next to him sees their production slide because of him. His impact on RAPM is significantly lesser than his statistical line. Moving around which box score amalgam you want to cite doesn't change this.

Some scouts and analysts use VORP.

The point is its a box score amalgam. So people supporting Knight have given up quoting his line because his impact is repeatedly used to counter that argument. So now instead of throwing up a slash line you are just using another format for the same numbers.

This is all true, but as a counterpoint: VORP.

[HurricaneKid]

The argument is if you get a mid 1st pick we have been pretty good with those. Meanwhile you avoid paying Knight a crushing 13M+/. Because the moment he signs that he is a negative asset (as far as most of us are concerned). So getting an asset for a player about to turn into a liability would be a good thing.

[ReasonablySober]

Some scouts and analysts use VORP.

Name them.

viewtopic.php?p=42478095#p42478095

Well it's not as funny when you have to explain the joke. Jeez.

[emunney]

Some scouts and analysts thought it was pretty funny.

[Frank Nova]

Are there still Bucks fans that really believe we are going to miss the playoffs? Trade targets aside I seen Luke23 mention something about pick 13/14... Just wanted to know if that's a consensus feeling or just a gut feeling from someone desperately hoping we end up in the lotto? Thanks.

As for me, I'd love to recreate the FTD team and make that John Salmons esque move to help push the needle.

And if Frank Kaminsky is anyone's 1st round target then God help us all... If ur hoping for a lotto pick and a total waste of a year so we can draft him then that's just pathetic.

[ampd]

The point is its a box score amalgam. So people supporting Knight have given up quoting his line because his impact is repeatedly used to counter that argument. So now instead of throwing up a slash line you are just using another format for the same numbers.

As someone who "supports" Knight, I'm pretty bored of arguing the same point over and over again. There is nothing more to be gained at this point by me (or others) saying Knight is obviously a talented and still improving player with value as a prospect to a developing team and you posting some variation of +/- or on/off rating and your interpretation of what it means, while neither of us being convinced by the other's evidence. It's happened hundreds of times on dozens of threads already, there is no point in repeating it here.

About RAPM, which team is better?

1. Patrick Beverley / Andre Iguodala / DeMarre Carroll / Nick Collison / Channing Frye

vs

2. Damian Lillard / Wes Matthews / Carmelo Anthony / Al Horford / Marc Gasol

Because RAPM thought #1 would beat #2 last year. And if you agree you are seriously delusional.

[Treebeard]

Are there still Bucks fans that really believe we are going to miss the playoffs? Trade targets aside I seen Luke23 mention something about pick 13/14... Just wanted to know if that's a consensus feeling or just a gut feeling from someone desperately hoping we end up in the lotto? Thanks.

As for me, I'd love to recreate the FTD team and make that John Salmons esque move to help push the needle.

And if Frank Kaminsky is anyone's 1st round target then God help us all... If ur hoping for a lotto pick and a total waste of a year so we can draft him then that's just pathetic.

I believe the 13/14 slot would be if the Bucks obtained the New Orleans pick from Houston. The Bucks own pick is higher, as is the Clippers pick.