PG: Bucks Lose to Spurs....obviously. 101-95

[machu46]

So Middleton 17-20ppg at 12m per with high efficiency is okay, but Knight 17-20ppg at 12m per with high efficiency is not? Sorry for bringing up Knight, just trying to make sense of all this.

Thanks.

Middleton is 6-7" and doesn't require the ball in his hands at all time to produce. That's the difference.

And don't discount the height--that makes him much more effective defensively and allows him to get his shot off over smaller guys. He's got a defined position for which his height is an asset. Knight does not.

I agree with all of this, with the one exception being that Knight has proven to be able to produce even when playing off the ball. He just plays on the ball far more than any of us would like.

[paulpressey25]

I agree with all of this, with the one exception being that Knight has proven to be able to produce even when playing off the ball. He just plays on the ball far more than any of us would like.

I would love to lock Brandon up as our backup combo guard for $8/$9mm a year. I think he's a huge asset at that price. Will be interesting to see how the front office plays this.

[Giannis Parker]

So Middleton 17-20ppg at 12m per with high efficiency is okay, but Knight 17-20ppg at 12m per with high efficiency is not? Sorry for bringing up Knight, just trying to make sense of all this.

Thanks.

Middleton is 6-7" and doesn't require the ball in his hands at all time to produce. That's the difference.

And don't discount the height--that makes him much more effective defensively and allows him to get his shot off over smaller guys. He's got a defined position for which his height is an asset. Knight does not.

I agree with all of this, with the one exception being that Knight has proven to be able to produce even when playing off the ball. He just plays on the ball far more than any of us would like.

Precisely, I do not have the stats in front of me, but Knights effective FG% on 3pt shots and 2pt shots increases dramatically in catch and shoot situations. Believe it was like 38% off the dribble and 44% off catch and shoot for 3pt shots.

[machu46]

I agree with all of this, with the one exception being that Knight has proven to be able to produce even when playing off the ball. He just plays on the ball far more than any of us would like.

I would love to lock Brandon up as our backup combo guard for $8/$9mm a year. I think he's a huge asset at that price. Will be interesting to see how the front office plays this.

Yeah, I really do like what he can bring to the team if he's played in the right role. Should be an interesting trade deadline and off-season. Hopefully we'll start to get a better idea of what direction Kidd and the new owners want to take this team in. I see three ways that Knight can work in our plans, and one way that would be pretty much terrible.

1. Getting a SG that can create to play next to Knight in a system where the team just has great ball movement and doesn't rely on any one player handling the ball the majority of the time (like a James Harden/Manu Ginobili/Ohio State freshman type, but obviously they aren't realistic for us; maybe someone like Alec Burks?)

2. Getting a big PG to play next to him (ex: if MCW could shoot, Jrue Holiday, etc.)

3. Combo guard off the bench that can come in at either PG or SG

And then the one scenario that would be bad:

1. Playing him the way we currently do (for the most part), where he's asked to be the main creator for the team.

[Ron Swanson]

I like Middleton a lot as a part of the core going forward, but anything over $8 mil per year is a massive overpay. His production will always rely almost entirely on his shooting efficiency, so when his shot isn't falling, he isn't providing you much on that end.

He's an above defender, but I don't think he has any elite potential there. That said, the highest I go for him is 3-yrs $24 million, and even that's a little pricey for my tastes.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

6-12 million per for knight and middleton is fine. I don't know how the league is going to value them but I could appreciate literally anything in those ranges. pay the market rate for our young core restricted free agents. both guys are great young men with upside to their games.

bottom line is I could watch the core 4 of knight/middleton/giannis/parker for a decade. I have no problem trading any of them for what we might perceive as an upgrade but the idea of letting any of those 4 walk for anything less than an absurd overpay would make my skin boil.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

I like Middleton a lot as a part of the core going forward, but anything over $8 mil per year is a massive overpay. His production will always rely almost entirely on his shooting efficiency, so when his shot isn't falling, he isn't providing you much on that end.

his defense has been much improved and that shooting is worth at least 8 million even if his 3pt accuracy drops down around .370ish on his worst seasons. over .400 with defense makes him virtually elite. forget the money.....when hes shooting this way he needs to be a bigger part of our offense.

[Lippo]

Those last 2 meaningless FT misses knocked Bayless's FT% down from 99% to 96%, that sucks

[paulpressey25]

bottom line is I could watch the core 4 of knight/middleton/giannis/parker for a decade. I have no problem trading any of them for what we might perceive as an upgrade but the idea of letting any of those 4 walk for anything less than an absurd overpay would make my skin boil.

I could watch the core of Redd/Bogut/Jennings/Mo for a decade as well.

But for a variety of reasons (overpaying, injuries, poor GM work) it all blew apart pretty fast.

Keep accumulating firsts and young below the radar screen players, have a bad record be your friend with a higher draft pick as a result. Only re-sign guys if their new contract amounts allow you to immediately re-trade them for value.

[Insomniaac]

Middleton has the potential to be a prototypical 3&D guy and one of the best in the league. I don't see him ever being much more than that but ideally we don't need more than that from him. Would be okay with a slight overpay because with the cap rising he could end up a huge bargain. $8M/year would be fine with me.

[Giannis Parker]

I like Middleton a lot as a part of the core going forward, but anything over $8 mil per year is a massive overpay. His production will always rely almost entirely on his shooting efficiency, so when his shot isn't falling, he isn't providing you much on that end.

He's an above defender, but I don't think he has any elite potential there. That said, the highest I go for him is 3-yrs $24 million, and even that's a little pricey for my tastes.

This is pretty much spot on.

Kyle Korver is the best example, best 3pt shooter in the league, making 6.5m and some analysts and scouts feel that is even an overpay because all that Korver really gives you above average is shooting. These same scouts and analysts feel an average player makes around 4m, and that each skill above average should net you around 1.5m extra annually. Given that he is elite, most experts feel 6m is the sweet spot for an average everywhere else but elite in one category type of player.

Obviously, all of this is arbitrary information and opinion from a little over a dozen people I have a talked to, but the fact Korver was already the leagues best shooter and that only got him 6.5m makes me feel they are spot on.

What could potentially seperate Middleton from Korver is the fact that Middleton has shown signs of improvement on the defensive end. At this point, I think Middleton pulls in a 3yr 21m deal as a slight overpay, but if he continues to improve on defense, he may get up to 8m annually.

FYI, teams are not going to overpay this offseason for players, the cap max is projected at 69.5m, up from a previous projection of 66.5m, likely due to the TV deal, and then 81.5m as a projected max in 2016. Teams are only going to offer based on 69.5m, they would be stupid to offer based on 81.5 as that number is only a projection.

[Insomniaac]

Those last 2 meaningless FT misses knocked Bayless's FT% down from 99% to 96%, that sucks

He had only missed one all year before that.

[emunney]

I wouldn't go over $8M per year for Middleton. Once the cap goes up, he'll be at 8-10% of the cap. That sounds about right.

I will say this: I'd put the odds at us landing a better wing at 15-17 in the draft well under 50%.

It would most likely be 2-3 years before we'd know it even if we did get one. At which time he'd be better than Middleton for the Hawks and we'd have long since moved on from Korver.

[ReasonablySober]

Anyone who thinks Korver isn't an insane bargain right now is a complete moron.

[Insomniaac]

I like Middleton a lot as a part of the core going forward, but anything over $8 mil per year is a massive overpay. His production will always rely almost entirely on his shooting efficiency, so when his shot isn't falling, he isn't providing you much on that end.

He's an above defender, but I don't think he has any elite potential there. That said, the highest I go for him is 3-yrs $24 million, and even that's a little pricey for my tastes.

This is pretty much spot on.

Kyle Korver is the best example, best 3pt shooter in the league, making 6.5m and some analysts and scouts feel that is even an overpay because all that Korver really gives you above average is shooting. These same scouts and analysts feel an average player makes around 4m, and that each skill above average should net you around 1.5m extra annually. Given that he is elite, most experts feel 6m is the sweet spot for an average everywhere else but elite in one category type of player.

Obviously, all of this is arbitrary information and opinion from a little over a dozen people I have a talked to, but the fact Korver was already the leagues best shooter and that only got him 6.5m makes me feel they are spot on.

What could potentially seperate Middleton from Korver is the fact that Middleton has shown signs of improvement on the defensive end. At this point, I think Middleton pulls in a 3yr 21m deal as a slight overpay, but if he continues to improve on defense, he may get up to 8m annually.

FYI, teams are not going to overpay this offseason for players, the cap max is projected at 69.5m, up from a previous projection of 66.5m, likely due to the TV deal, and then 81.5m as a projected max in 2016. Teams are only going to offer based on 69.5m, they would be stupid to offer based on 81.5 as that number is only a projection.

Obviously this is just my opinion but $6.5M is an absolute steal for Korver. He has a chance to be the first person in NBA history to shoot 50/50/90 and he's doing it on nearly 6 3PA/game. He was already a great shooter but this is by far his best season.

[Giannis Parker]

Anyone who thinks Korver isn't an insane bargain right now is a complete moron.

Says you and you only, but hey, thanks for bringing the typical garbage to otherwise very refreshing and nice basketball discussion.

[emunney]

Anyone who thinks Korver isn't an insane bargain right now is a complete moron.

Says you and you only, but hey, thanks for bringing the typical garbage to otherwise very refreshing and nice basketball discussion.

No, I think the overwhelming consensus would side with RS on this one. It is also demonstrably untrue that the average player makes 4m.

[Giannis Parker]

Obviously this is just my opinion but $6.5M is an absolute steal for Korver. He has a chance to be the first person in NBA history to shoot 50/50/90 and he's doing it on nearly 6 3PA/game. He was already a great shooter but this is by far his best season.

He is not a volume shooter, that is why it is not a bargain.

If he was putting up these #'s and actually putting up 14 shots per game and giving his team 16-20ppg we have a much different story. But low usage 13ppg really deflates this "bargain" talk with Korver quite quickly. Korver is in the perfect role getting paid exactly what he should be getting paid. That is my opinion at least.

[emunney]

Name some scouts and analysts who think Korver is overpaid.

[emunney]

Some scouts and analysts think Langston Galloway is an heirloom spinach.