Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Horst Given Extension

[Xanadu]

You imply you have a price. It's just higher than mine. So if I could convince you that we could get back equal or more in a trade, would you do it?

There are many dimensions to trading Giannis. If he asks out, obviously then you do it, and work for the best deal to set the team up for the future.

But if he continues to be loyal to Milwaukee, I don't think you pull the trigger ever. Why?

1. He's a top 3 player now and likely top 3 for the next three years if his knee holds up. Having a top 3 player is virtually impossible to do. Sidney in his prime was top 3-5 but you have to go back to 1983 for that.

2. 10-15 years ago the Bucks had zero young fans. Zero. It was just us diehards who either came to the team during the great 1970's, 1980's, or very short 1999-2003 big three era. Giannis has now brought in half the state. I see Bucks gear EVERYWHERE when I travel now. Seeing him go while still a top 3 player would be a devastating blow.

3. Need someone to point out a deal where the team trading the top 3-5 guy won the trade. It just never happens.

4. Haslam. I'm convinced the guy has some clause in his ownership where he can control majority if the other three sell. (and Junior was brought in by Haslam. Where will Junior's shares go?). If Haslam controls and keeps the team here, great. But Nashville beckons.

5. New GM. If the owners could find a good new GM, you can retool around Giannis versus re-treading around him. Might take two years, but it is possible.

I understand many of us on this board are now bored with the team, and the intellectual idea of preemptively trading Giannis makes for great discussion. But it is really bad policy.

Responding to your points:

1) I notice that you can get good Buck's seats fro cheap for virtually any game.The enthusiasm you refer to has waned and will wane much more if the slide continues.

2) Our analysis of the importance of the coach and how good/bad Doc is, are much different. Atkinson is the flavor of the month. He has a top two starting lineup and a top reserve.

The Cavs were hurt much of last year and this year they are healthy. I repeat, the guy the Cavs fired will probably be coach of the year this year. Posters need to stop elevating coaches based on one year success.

Basing a Buck's resurgence on a strategy of getting a new coach only prolongues the eventual rebuild.

3) If you thought Cooper Flagg was the next Larry Bird, would this sway your opinion? I don't get excited about college players very often. This guy is special. You don't trade Giannis unless you have strong feelings that someone is the next superstar.

Flagg can do everything. He is a special defensive player. He is a great passer and rebounder. He is a very good shooter, who will only get better. Other than Wembenyama, he is the best high draft choice I've seen in the last ten years.

To be a great GM, you have to be a great evaluator of talent and be ahead of the curve.

Man anyone who thinks trading Giannis unless he demands it has to be a newer bucks fan. The years of 8th seed and swept without even a glimmer of more were hellish. Greg Monroe was the best FA signing we ever had. We always made moves to win short term. Either you didn't live through the have it all ellis Bucks or you have memory problems. You seem to view the Bucks as capable of turning a huge Giannis deal into a future young core. But the chance that young core reaches anywhere near this teams ceiling is minor. No way do we get as lucky with a loyal star like Giannis again. Even if Cooper is a immediate top ten player do you really see him staying to build a real core and win with it. Don't think a lot of the newer fans understand the truth of being in Milwaukee in the Nba. I mean have you not been here for the medias constant attempts to get Giannis out of here. Do you really think we will be able to keep another all time great here just because he loves it. Sorry no if you trade Giannis it needs to be at his request otherwise you are making a narrow view to team building. Life isnt a NBA 2k franchise.

[ShootingtheJ]

It's interesting Kuz acknowledged he developed bad habits in DC he needs to shake. In the meantime, we shouldn't have sunk-cost fallacy we made a significant trade for him so he needs to start immediately. Khris didn't. And we have to think of the team 1st.

A good strategy could be to have Kuz as the 6th man, and when Brook's struggling against smaller guys/shooters, have Kuz come in early for him. Play the Giannis at the 5 look. I hope Doc hasn't done it at this point to save Giannis' body for the postseason.

With Sims here, the need for Giannis at the 5 is lessened, especially when the wing option, Kuzma, is a bad offensive player.

[Bernman]

With Sims here, the need for Giannis at the 5 is lessened, especially when the wing option, Kuzma, is a bad offensive player.

Sims has a specific niche of switchability, which Giannis lessens the need for if he matches up w/ the opposing 5. If Kuzma's a bad offensive player, Sims is a hack at it. Teams have to guard Kuz more than Sims & the former can create some for teammates.

Kuz played 23 minutes per game in the playoffs on a championship team. We have a dearth of players who've ever provided a playable baseline in the playoffs. Kuz is 1 of a handful.

If you're trying to argue to cull Kuz from the rotation completely, your perspective is unreasonable. You're getting greedy cuz I gave an inch. We get it, the trade was bad, & we like Midds more. But not everything is one extreme or the other.

[ShootingtheJ]

With Sims here, the need for Giannis at the 5 is lessened, especially when the wing option, Kuzma, is a bad offensive player.

Sims has a specific niche of switchability, which Giannis lessens the need for if he matches up w/ the opposing 5. If Kuzma's a bad offensive player, Sims is a hack at it. Teams have to guard Kuz more than Sims & the former can create some for teammates.

Kuz played 23 minutes per game in the playoffs on a championship team. We have a dearth of players who've ever provided a playable baseline in the playoffs. Kuz is 1 of a handful.

If you're trying to argue to cull Kuz from the rotation completely, your perspective is unreasonable. You're getting greedy cuz I gave an inch. We get it, the trade was bad, & we like Midds more. But not everything is one extreme or the other.

I've stated that we need to lean into Kuzma's defensive abilities more, so no I'm not trying to eliminate him. However, to turn him into a real defensive asset, he needs to guard the ball, not 4s.

[drew881]

After tomorrow, we have no back to backs until April 5. So at least that is a plus.

[BigO]

Your obnoxious Bud idolatry aside, we had a healthy Khris Middleton, signed a younger Brook Lopez, a younger Bobby Portis and Giannis just hitting his prime. If your point is that Bud was an improvement over Kidd, well, ok.

Lopez himself, took the Bucks from a mediocre defensive team to near the top. Under Bud,if you bothered to look it up, when Lopez was out for the season, the Bucks defense declined to middle of the league, despite having Giannis, Jrue and Middleton. Sports success is based on talent.

The key to the Bucks decline is Khris Middleton being gone. If you think the Bucks would be better under Bud now, that's just irrational love.Nothing wrong with irrational love.

And just ignore the decline of Phoenix under Bud. I knew when a really good coach was fired (Frank Vogel) and replaced with Bud, that this was not going to work out.

Wasn’t the point that a good off-season can quickly change things? Then you mentioned that we don’t have draft assets and are in a tough spot with the cap.

Ron then pointed out that between 2018 and 2019, we went from Kidd to Bud, and added Brook with the BAE. Then, during the season, we traded one first for George Hill - we have a 1st to trade now, too.

We also didn’t sign Bobby that off-season - that happened a few seasons later, and honestly supports Ron’s point as well. That was a BAE signing.

If we want, we could use the full-MLE and the BAE this off-season.

We didn’t use the draft assets that we can’t presently replicate until we traded for Jrue, but that was after we already had our massive improvement and were a 60+ win team.

I wouldn’t even bother when dude still thinks that Atkinson is “overrated” and is one of the few posters still giving excuses for Doc. Legitimately don’t get how someone could still question how important coaching is to a roster with this amount of evidence the past 8-years. I guess it’s all just a magical coincidence to some people.

I liked Atkinson when he was one of the options. So like everything else you do, you embellish what others say to make your point.

No, I'm not going to anoint him as a great coach yet, when he has one of the best lineups in the league and they are healthy. Just like I'm not going to anoint the Pistons coach for this season. After all, he was the Cavaliers coach last season.

Oh, and keep ignoring the steep dropoff from Vogel to Bud in Phoenix. It's got to be someone else's fault.

[BigO]

With Sims here, the need for Giannis at the 5 is lessened, especially when the wing option, Kuzma, is a bad offensive player.

Sims has a specific niche of switchability, which Giannis lessens the need for if he matches up w/ the opposing 5. If Kuzma's a bad offensive player, Sims is a hack at it. Teams have to guard Kuz more than Sims & the former can create some for teammates.

Kuz played 23 minutes per game in the playoffs on a championship team. We have a dearth of players who've ever provided a playable baseline in the playoffs. Kuz is 1 of a handful.

If you're trying to argue to cull Kuz from the rotation completely, your perspective is unreasonable. You're getting greedy cuz I gave an inch. We get it, the trade was bad, & we like Midds more. But not everything is one extreme or the other.

I've stated that we need to lean into Kuzma's defensive abilities more, so no I'm not trying to eliminate him. However, to turn him into a real defensive asset, he needs to guard the ball, not 4s.

I'm not sure how good Kuzma is defensively. But given the Bucks lack of defensive stoppers, he's worth a try, as long as they tell him not to shoot or try and be a playmaker.

His inefficiency and turnovers are a big problem.

[BigO]

Your obnoxious Bud hatred aside, we used one 1st round draft pick to turn Delly and Henson into George Hill (ended up being the Kevin Porter pick ironically enough), and that was even after we got out to a 7-0 start that year. The turnaround had nothing to do with having draft assets and everything to do with hitting a home-run on a couple margins moves, if you even bothered to look it up. We already had zero cap space and we didn't exhaust the draft pick/asset chest until the Jrue trade 2-years later.

Your obnoxious Bud idolatry aside, we had a healthy Khris Middleton, signed a younger Brook Lopez, a younger Bobby Portis and Giannis just hitting his prime. If your point is that Bud was an improvement over Kidd, well, ok.

Lopez himself, took the Bucks from a mediocre defensive team to near the top. Under Bud,if you bothered to look it up, when Lopez was out for the season, the Bucks defense declined to middle of the league, despite having Giannis, Jrue and Middleton. Sports success is based on talent.

The key to the Bucks decline is Khris Middleton being gone. If you think the Bucks would be better under Bud now, that's just irrational love.Nothing wrong with irrational love.

And just ignore the decline of Phoenix under Bud. I knew when a really good coach was fired (Frank Vogel) and replaced with Bud, that this was not going to work out.

Wasn’t the point that a good off-season can quickly change things? Then you mentioned that we don’t have draft assets and are in a tough spot with the cap.

Ron then pointed out that between 2018 and 2019, we went from Kidd to Bud, and added Brook with the BAE. Then, during the season, we traded one first for George Hill - we have a 1st to trade now, too.

We also didn’t sign Bobby that off-season - that happened a few seasons later, and honestly supports Ron’s point as well. That was a BAE signing.

If we want, we could use the full-MLE and the BAE this off-season.

We didn’t use the draft assets that we can’t presently replicate until we traded for Jrue, but that was after we already had our massive improvement and were a 60+ win team.

The signing of Lopez was huge. As I pointed out, with that addition the Bucks went from medicore defensively to near the top every year.

And the one year that Lopez was out, the Bucks plummeted in defense. And that was with Bud as coach.

So Bud was a huge improvement over Kidd, but Lopez drove the defensive improvement, as his absence proved.

If your overall point is that there are other guys like Lopez out there and that should be the goal, that is certainly a strategy.

Getting a Lopez, or even a Portis, on the cheap, because you have few draft assets and little cap room, has a possibility for success.

I think it's harder now than it was five years ago. Other teams have more cap room.

[yb90]

I think the Bucks should try to tade for R.J. Barret in the offseason. He is no where near a perfect player but he would fill a role with the Bucks. If they could flip Portis and Pat for RJ that would be ideal. The Bucks need another big wing that has more welll rounded skill set. While his shooting is a concern I think he would do better around Giannis. He is not Midds but he could fill that role better than Kuzma offensively and would provide the Bucks with an extra playmaker and ball handler. I doubt Prince stays because of the money he could get but if the Bucks could keep the players that are in their top 9 rotation and add a piece like Barret they're real contenders.

[German Athens]

I think the Bucks should try to tade for R.J. Barret in the offseason. He is no where near a perfect player but he would fill a role with the Bucks. If they could flip Portis and Pat for RJ that would be ideal. The Bucks need another big wing that has more welll rounded skill set. While his shooting is a concern I think he would do better around Giannis. He is not Midds but he could fill that role better than Kuzma offensively and would provide the Bucks with an extra playmaker and ball handler. I doubt Prince stays because of the money he could get but if the Bucks could keep the players that are in their top 9 rotation and add a piece like Barret they're real contenders.

Would much rather target Quickley than Barrett, but RJ almost averaging 6 assists per game is quite the surprise and solid development for him.

I just don’t trust that he’s a winning player, yet.

[emunney]

I think all these things are true:

1) Kuzma is a useful piece.
2) The trade is a massive disaster.
3) As long as AJ Johnson doesn't break out, which is not a given, the negative aspects of the trade attenuate over the next two years as Khris' knee continues to degenerate and the flexibility gained is brought to bear. If Johnson breaks out, on the other hand, this is a myth-making ****. There is a very real possibility that Khris is a more useful playoff piece than Kuzma for the next 2 years, and Johnson is thereafter, and all we're left with is the knock-on effects of getting below the apron to try to justify this.

OTOH, MarJon for KPJ.

[ShootingtheJ]

Your obnoxious Bud idolatry aside, we had a healthy Khris Middleton, signed a younger Brook Lopez, a younger Bobby Portis and Giannis just hitting his prime. If your point is that Bud was an improvement over Kidd, well, ok.

Lopez himself, took the Bucks from a mediocre defensive team to near the top. Under Bud,if you bothered to look it up, when Lopez was out for the season, the Bucks defense declined to middle of the league, despite having Giannis, Jrue and Middleton. Sports success is based on talent.

The key to the Bucks decline is Khris Middleton being gone. If you think the Bucks would be better under Bud now, that's just irrational love.Nothing wrong with irrational love.

And just ignore the decline of Phoenix under Bud. I knew when a really good coach was fired (Frank Vogel) and replaced with Bud, that this was not going to work out.

Wasn’t the point that a good off-season can quickly change things? Then you mentioned that we don’t have draft assets and are in a tough spot with the cap.

Ron then pointed out that between 2018 and 2019, we went from Kidd to Bud, and added Brook with the BAE. Then, during the season, we traded one first for George Hill - we have a 1st to trade now, too.

We also didn’t sign Bobby that off-season - that happened a few seasons later, and honestly supports Ron’s point as well. That was a BAE signing.

If we want, we could use the full-MLE and the BAE this off-season.

We didn’t use the draft assets that we can’t presently replicate until we traded for Jrue, but that was after we already had our massive improvement and were a 60+ win team.

The signing of Lopez was huge. As I pointed out, with that addition the Bucks went from medicore defensively to near the top every year.

And the one year that Lopez was out, the Bucks plummeted in defense. And that was with Bud as coach.

So Bud was a huge improvement over Kidd, but Lopez drove the defensive improvement, as his absence proved.

His absence didn’t prove squat. All it proved was that our depth was terrible, which we already knew. We were a top 10 defense with Portis at center surrounded by any of our actual rotation players. Do any lineup data with our top 10 and we were really good defensively.

Bud was a great regular season coach for awhile, but he got lazy and egotistical.

[emunney]

Wasn’t the point that a good off-season can quickly change things? Then you mentioned that we don’t have draft assets and are in a tough spot with the cap.

Ron then pointed out that between 2018 and 2019, we went from Kidd to Bud, and added Brook with the BAE. Then, during the season, we traded one first for George Hill - we have a 1st to trade now, too.

We also didn’t sign Bobby that off-season - that happened a few seasons later, and honestly supports Ron’s point as well. That was a BAE signing.

If we want, we could use the full-MLE and the BAE this off-season.

We didn’t use the draft assets that we can’t presently replicate until we traded for Jrue, but that was after we already had our massive improvement and were a 60+ win team.

The signing of Lopez was huge. As I pointed out, with that addition the Bucks went from medicore defensively to near the top every year.

And the one year that Lopez was out, the Bucks plummeted in defense. And that was with Bud as coach.

So Bud was a huge improvement over Kidd, but Lopez drove the defensive improvement, as his absence proved.

His absence didn’t prove squat. All it proved was that our depth was terrible, which we already knew. We were a top 10 defense with Portis at center surrounded by any of our actual rotation players. Do any lineup data with our top 10 and we were really good defensively.

Bud was a great regular season coach for awhile, but he got lazy and egotistical.

Yeah, BigO has brought this up before. It's certainly some about Lopez, but more about who replaced Lopez. Early in the season that was Semi. That of course doesn't entirely clear Bud, but it wasn't as if we had other bigs to throw in there, and that was the main problem.

[BigO]

The signing of Lopez was huge. As I pointed out, with that addition the Bucks went from medicore defensively to near the top every year.

And the one year that Lopez was out, the Bucks plummeted in defense. And that was with Bud as coach.

So Bud was a huge improvement over Kidd, but Lopez drove the defensive improvement, as his absence proved.

His absence didn’t prove squat. All it proved was that our depth was terrible, which we already knew. We were a top 10 defense with Portis at center surrounded by any of our actual rotation players. Do any lineup data with our top 10 and we were really good defensively.

Bud was a great regular season coach for awhile, but he got lazy and egotistical.

Yeah, BigO has brought this up before. It's certainly some about Lopez, but more about who replaced Lopez. Early in the season that was Semi. That of course doesn't entirely clear Bud, but it wasn't as if we had other bigs to throw in there, and that was the main problem.

I think Semi may have been the worst player Horst ever brought in.

[yb90]

I think the Bucks should try to tade for R.J. Barret in the offseason. He is no where near a perfect player but he would fill a role with the Bucks. If they could flip Portis and Pat for RJ that would be ideal. The Bucks need another big wing that has more welll rounded skill set. While his shooting is a concern I think he would do better around Giannis. He is not Midds but he could fill that role better than Kuzma offensively and would provide the Bucks with an extra playmaker and ball handler. I doubt Prince stays because of the money he could get but if the Bucks could keep the players that are in their top 9 rotation and add a piece like Barret they're real contenders.

Would much rather target Quickley than Barrett, but RJ almost averaging 6 assists per game is quite the surprise and solid development for him.

I just don’t trust that he’s a winning player, yet.

I can understand not thinking he is a winning player but I think that's mostly situational. I put him in the same group of players like Wiggins or Mikal Bridges. They are pieces to a puzzle that can work if surrounded by the right pieces. Plus, he is only 24 and would add to the young with two yrs left on his contract just like Giannis, Dame, and Kyle.

Quickley is a nice player but he only works if you move Dame and he's not an upgrade on either side. Maybe Barret, Quickley, and picks for Lillard but I not sure that makes the team better.

[pifhluk23]

I think all these things are true:

1) Kuzma is a useful piece.
2) The trade is a massive disaster.
3) As long as AJ Johnson doesn't break out, which is not a given, the negative aspects of the trade attenuate over the next two years as Khris' knee continues to degenerate and the flexibility gained is brought to bear. If Johnson breaks out, on the other hand, this is a myth-making ****. There is a very real possibility that Khris is a more useful playoff piece than Kuzma for the next 2 years, and Johnson is thereafter, and all we're left with is the knock-on effects of getting below the apron to try to justify this.

OTOH, MarJon for KPJ.

Kuzma has already proven he's infinitely more useful than Middleton during the regular season. Midds literally couldn't move. Idc about AJJ, we need to win now and Kuz helps do that plus he's got a nice contract. Trade is already a win in my book.

[Ron Swanson]

Khris' body wasn't gonna hold up for 4 playoff rounds and I can't believe there are people out there who actually would keep burying their heads in the sand over it. Organization just should have found a better piece than Kyle **** Kuzma and the more and more games Golden State wins because of Jimmy's impact, the more it becomes obvious we should have just picked a direction instead of splitting the difference. Could have just grabbed a 2-3 years younger DeAndre Hunter for the same price.

[theFireBlanket]

Khris' body wasn't gonna hold up for 4 playoff rounds and I can't believe there are people out there who actually would keep burying their heads in the sand over it. Organization just should have found a better piece than Kyle **** Kuzma and the more and more games Golden State wins because of Jimmy's impact, the more it becomes obvious we should have just picked a direction instead of splitting the difference. Could have just grabbed a 2-3 years younger DeAndre Hunter for the same price.

Never wanted to trade Khris but Hunter is one of the players that I would've targeted if forced to do it.

[Bernman]

I think all these things are true:

1) Kuzma is a useful piece.
2) The trade is a massive disaster.
3) As long as AJ Johnson doesn't break out, which is not a given, the negative aspects of the trade attenuate over the next two years as Khris' knee continues to degenerate and the flexibility gained is brought to bear. If Johnson breaks out, on the other hand, this is a myth-making ****. There is a very real possibility that Khris is a more useful playoff piece than Kuzma for the next 2 years, and Johnson is thereafter, and all we're left with is the knock-on effects of getting below the apron to try to justify this.

OTOH, MarJon for KPJ.

That's too nuanced of a perspective for some. Please put everything in a binary from now on. Thank you.

[Matches Malone]

This franchise is at a standstill. They need fresh eyes to take a look at the roster and a coach that will be able to maximize the talent. Easier said than done, but what they are doing now isn't working anymore and Horst is just throwing mud against the wall hoping something sticks. It reeks of desperation.

Scouting department needs an overhaul. No more of these Billie Mckinney's and Dave Babcock's helping the GM blow years of draft picks. We need to start getting some juice out of the draft. We have found some decent players on the margins, and later rounds but we need an infusion of higher ceiling guys.

And you probably need to have a sit down with Giannis. My gut tells me he is too loyal and would be okay staying with one organization his entire career like some of his heroes (Kobe, Duncan, Dirk) if we find ways to re-tool around him (and keep Thanasis on payroll). Probably have to move on from Dame, Kuzma, Brook etc. If he doesn't want that then you probably need to look at moving him because this current Bucks team feels tapped out.