Constructing the Timberwolves rotation

[_AIJ_]

Start Jmac at PF! He is raw but he can defend and score. He hustles a lot too!

A 5-foot-11 PF? That's taking Rosas ball to a new extreme.....

Umm. McDaniels?


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[Klomp]

Start Jmac at PF! He is raw but he can defend and score. He hustles a lot too!

A 5-foot-11 PF? That's taking Rosas ball to a new extreme.....

Umm. McDaniels?

I was well aware.

[Jedzz]

MCD = McDaniels is possibly the best Wolves draft pick made since 2015. Everyone should adjust their beliefs accordingly. 25th pick looks like a steal in comparison to team's past lotto choices.

[_AIJ_]

MCD = McDaniels is possibly the best Wolves draft pick made since 2015. Everyone should adjust their beliefs accordingly. 25th pick looks like a steal in comparison to team's past lotto choices.

Correct. If our first pick cant figure things out, McDaniels for sure is better.


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[Folklore]

MCD = McDaniels is possibly the best Wolves draft pick made since 2015. Everyone should adjust their beliefs accordingly. 25th pick looks like a steal in comparison to team's past lotto choices.

He looked like J Issac out there.

[wolves_89]

I think it is time Nowell starts getting rotation minutes. Both Edwards and Culver have been truly awful this season, so I'd give them a 4-6 minute stint (late 1st quarter/early 2nd quarter) and if one or both aren't producing give the next rotation minutes to Nowell. It's time players start having to earn minutes rather than being gifted playing time no matter how badly they deserve to be benched.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that letting guys play through extended stretches of terrible basketball isn't the answer.

[wolfen]

Thinking about things on a per-36 basis as to why:
-DLo should be 6th man
-Rubio should be out of the rotation, Jmac in
-Okogie & Culver should be out of the rotation, Nowell in

Per-36

Dlo - Rubio - Jmac

Assists per 36
Rubio 9.0 > Jmac 8.6 > DLo 6.4

Turnovers per 36
Jmac 2.1 > Rubio 3.3 > DLo 3.6

Assist to turnover ratio per 36
Jmac 4.1 > Rubio 2.72 > DLo 1.78

Points Per 36
DLo 23.7 > Jmac 11.4 > Rubio 9.5

FG%
Jmac 45.5% (37.5 3pt) > DLo 42.3 (39.3 3 pt) > 34.7 (18.5 3 pt)

Defense...
DLo is turrible. Jmac is very solid and smart. You can't tell me Rubio is getting time over Jmac because he's "a significantly better defender", because that's the only explanation as to why he plays ahead of Jmac, as Jmac smokes him on the offensive side of the ball.

DLo...
-Does his best offensive work against mediocre defenders, case in point last night - Darius Garland.
-Struggles against good defenders, becomes much less efficient.
-Why not make him the Lou Williams 6th man type, he can work against bench guys and be efficient and provide a major bench spark.
-Just because he's paid a lot and KAT likes him doesn't mean the starting lineup is the best place for him to succeed.
-Jmac should start.

Nowell (small sample size, I know) - Culver - Okogie

Per 36

Points per 36
Nowell 21.0 > Culver 13.8 > Okogie 8.9

FG%
Nowell 47.2 (26.3 from 3) > 45.9 (25.8 from 3) > Okogie 37.9 (15.4 from 3)

Assists per 36
2.7 (Nowell) / 2.4 (Okogie) / 1.6 (Culver)

Turnovers per 36
1.4 (Okogie) 2.2 (Culver) 2.7 (Nowell)

Steals
1.7 (okogie) 1.4 (culver) .9 (Nowell)

Rebounding - Culver & Okogie are better rebounders, not debatable

Dribbling and ball handling ability
Nowell >>>> Culver >>>>>>>>>>> Okogie

As Nowell gets more time, he will increase his assist totals and cut down on turnovers. He's a better offensive player than both Culver and Okogie, moves and handles the ball way better than either, a much better shooter, and he's solid on defense guarding 1's and 2's. Again, unlesss you think either Okogie or Culver are just ridiculous all-world defenders and soooo much better than Nowell, who is a solid defender, why would you play them over Nowell?

Vandy / McDaniels >>>>> Juancho / Layman
-Do I really need to explain why?

Because I know DLo will never come off the bench as long as Saunders is coaching, we should go with a tighter rotation:

DLo / Beas / Ant / Vando or McD (depending on opponent matchup) / KAT

Bench rototational players - but no need to PLATOON them, starters need more minutes
Jmac - Nowell - Vando or McD / Reid

Try like hell to trade any player not in the rotation to get 1-2 picks in the upcoming draft, whether early 2nds or late firsts. Certainly you could get an early 2nd for Culver or Okogie. Maybe a team would go after Rubio at the deadline in need of a vet PG. I doubt Layman would bring back anything, maybe a mid/late 2nd, and there's no way a team would want Juancho with his contract.

Just my thoughts for the day

[Klomp]

Russell / Beasley / Edwards / McDaniels / Towns
Rubio / Nowell / Layman / Vanderbilt / Reid

Start shopping Culver, Okogie and even Rubio to try to recoup some draft capital.

[Dewey]

Russell / Beasley / Edwards / McDaniels / Towns
Rubio / Nowell / Layman / Vanderbilt / Reid

Start shopping Culver, Okogie and even Rubio to try to recoup some draft capital.

Agree but can't forget about the little fella ... McL.

[Klomp]

Russell / Beasley / Edwards / McDaniels / Towns
Rubio / Nowell / Layman / Vanderbilt / Reid

Start shopping Culver, Okogie and even Rubio to try to recoup some draft capital.

Agree but can't forget about the little fella ... McL.

Why I said to maybe shop Rubio

[theGreatRC]

JMac, Mcdaniels, Nowell & Vanderbilt have done a nice job making the most of their minutes and deserve time when at full strength.

Culver, Josh, Ricky & Juancho should be worried because they were getting minutes by default & they need to step it up if they don't want to ride the bench. If Ryan DNPs the 4 I mentioned above for the bottom 4 i mentioned, he doesn't deserve a job

[Sugarless]

While you guys keep doing the Timberwolves fan thing and propose to bench Ricky while he's still on the team, while favoring guys like Russell or McLaughlin (a player I actually like... in a small role, cause you can't hide him on defense), I'll just leave a couple of facts here:

Among players with at least 60 minutes played (everyone on the team except for Ed Davis, Nowell and Hagans) 'Angelo Russell is:

- Second to last in distance covered per minute on the court. Only ahead of 250 lbs 7-footer Karl-Anthony Towns. He. Has. No. Effort.

- Second to last in average speed. Again only ahead of 250 lbs 7-footer KAT.

- 4th worst defending shots near the rim, with a 74.5 DFG% (J-Mac is the worst at 88.9, Rubio's 3rd best a 56.5, only behind the much bigger and longer Naz Reid and Jaden McDaniels).

- Worst in the team in defensive FG% differential, allowing his opponents to shoot a staggering 8.4% above their average when he's 'defending' them (second worst is KAT, fourth worst is J-Mac. Rubio's again third best while holding guys to 2.8 lower FG% than their average).

But hey, why should anyone expect Wolves fans to value defense and effort, after all? It's not like they value smart players, team-first mentality or... winning, really.

[Jedzz]

- 4th worst defending shots near the rim, with a 74.5 DFG% (J-Mac is the worst at 88.9, Rubio's 3rd best a 56.5, only behind the much bigger and longer Naz Reid and Jaden McDaniels).

I would love it if you could find me an example of all the times these guards like Rubio have been stopping shots "near the rim". Are we talking within 3 ft or 6 ft? Would like to know how many examples it's based off of? Like two or five times this season? Near the rim I can't think of one memory of Rubio doing so. It's got to be based of something, but what? He chased down a couple fast breaks or something?

On the offensive end, JMac also finishes near the rim like a big like not many guards can. I've always thought a good coach could help him be a defender around the rim on the other end. I think he would be great at timing leaps to tap balls away without fouling, like RoCo used to here. But this would take coach prodding and time on the court over time. One of the very few things I could see him still needing developing towards. I've seen him shy away if he's the only one left under the basket defending a big forward/c driving rim. Don't really blame him though and wonder why he's the only one standing there in those moments.

[Jedzz]

But hey, why should anyone expect Wolves fans to value defense and effort, after all? It's not like they value smart players, team-first mentality or... winning, really.

The problem with Rubio and Okogie right now is they have gone too far south on the offensive end. The team ends up literally 4 on 5 every possession on the offensive end. If they are ever together or with another weak offensive player it's now 3 on 5.

They have to find a way to shoot better than in the teens, and stop missing open layups. How does someone like Rubio miss layups? Lack of focus in the final second? Concerned about how he will stop his momentum going out of bounds? Too concerned for looking for that last second pass? What is it?

[Jedzz]

Thinking about things on a per-36 basis as to why:

Good post. cropping quote only to save page space.

We all know factors such as contracts and prior draft history and other favoratisms and prior warroom paper plans come into play with coaches handing out roles and minutes. But you know at some point when the losses just keep stacking up in long streaks you would think every nonbasketball factor should go out the window and everything needs to start being about who can get you more wins. After all, the point of having the team is supposed to be about winning, not holding up status quo that gets you fired soon anyway. I always figured the best teams (not superteams) were because of coaches that got the best players involved enough to win inspite of all the "factors". I look at how the Lakers used Caruso last season so much and needed him. Then see him this year getting much less time even though his averages are through the roof better this year. Will it bite them this time around? Read a few Lakers fans discussing this example just last week.

I do wonder if when we've seen unusual firings around the league of coaches with winning records if it had to do with something like this. Did they sit the big contract guy to get the wins and start an internal power play? Or did they not have the balls to do what everyone saw as needed regardless of these outside reasons and it stopped them short? Always meant to research that a bit and never did on some of those firings. Couple not that long ago.

[Sugarless]

- 4th worst defending shots near the rim, with a 74.5 DFG% (J-Mac is the worst at 88.9, Rubio's 3rd best a 56.5, only behind the much bigger and longer Naz Reid and Jaden McDaniels).

I would love it if you could find me an example of all the times these guards like Rubio have been stopping shots "near the rim". Are we talking within 3 ft or 6 ft? Would like to know how many examples it's based off of? Like two or five Near the rim I can't think of one memory of Rubio doing so. It's got to be based of something, but what? He chased down a couple fast breaks or something?

There are lots of instances where a guard will end up defending a shot near the rim, whether that's on transition, after an offensive rebound, when the player he's defending drives to the rim or when he helps inside. If you want numbers, Russell -being the one that plays the most minutes- has already defended 47 such attempts this year. Another 6'4'' guard like Beasley sits at 55 (tied for 3rd on the team, which is yet another indication of how dumb it is to play such small lineups).

On the offensive end, JMac also finishes near the rim like a big like not many guards can. I've always thought a good coach could help him be a defender around the rim on the other end. I think he would be great at timing leaps to tap balls away without fouling, like RoCo used to here. But this would take coach prodding and time on the court over time. One of the very few things I could see him still needing developing towards. When he's left alone to stop a single large player going at the rim he wisely but sadly doesn't bother much right now. I've seen this happen when he fights around a pick to stay infront of his ballhandler and forces a kick back to a following opponent who's going to finish at the net. I'm usually left wondering why he's the only one there standing under the basket. Everyone else cleared out. He steps aside rather than be squashed.

Like I said, I like McLaughlin offensively, I love pass-first PGs with a good head on their shoulders and I think he's got the tools to run an offense effectively. I'd be happy to see him in Europe, where I'm sure he'd make name for himself. But he's too small to have a prominent role in the NBA, IMO. I don't think he can improve much defensively (he doesn't have great wingspan either and he's not a strong player) and I don't know if he could be as effective offensively as a starter, when he faces guys like Curry for 30 minutes instead of 5, and when opposing defenses are ready for him as the main ballhandler in the team. I do think he's a guy the Wolves should keep, in any case. Whether it's Russell, Rubio or some other guy as the starting PG going forward, they have a nice back-up in J-Mac that can keep things running for 15-16 minutes a night.

[Dewey]

But hey, why should anyone expect Wolves fans to value defense and effort, after all? It's not like they value smart players, team-first mentality or... winning, really.

The problem with Rubio and Okogie right now is they have gone too far south on the offensive end. The team ends up literally 4 on 5 every possession on the offensive end. If they are ever together or with another weak offensive player it's now 3 on 5.

They have to find a way to shoot better than in the teens, and stop missing open layups. I saw Ricky drive in another in the last game and he shifted left of rim which gave him a clear run at the layup. How does someone like him miss this? Lack of focus in the final second? Concerned about how he will stop his momentum going out of bounds? What is it? He aptly put himself in position to finish clean but can't finish. He had just missed a short floater a possession or two prior. I don't even know why he didn't pass, maybe trying to get something going for himself. But it's ugly man. I'm not a Rubio hater but it's just been super ugly.

It is odd to say the least ... we need gamers and those kinds of misses (Rubio) are simply deflating.

I agree on the shooting too, but when defenders are cheating on Beasley and DLo (for example), they need to take their cut throughs or shot-fake & drive to make their defenders work. If they don't, defenses will simply cover them out to the top. As a result, we often settle for some random stepback-3 or whatever. That leads to one of our #1 issues ... offensively, when guards don't demonstrate the capability to drive/finish at the basket, we do not draw help defense - let alone force defenses to collapse. In return, this negates And1 opportunities, and likewise, our guys in either corner lose lanes to cut back door OR have space for clean 3pt attepts. Bottom-line: If you do not move and attack in open space in a motion offense, the defense will merely play a modified zone to keep a man on the ball and us off the FT line.

[Jedzz]

- 4th worst defending shots near the rim, with a 74.5 DFG% (J-Mac is the worst at 88.9, Rubio's 3rd best a 56.5, only behind the much bigger and longer Naz Reid and Jaden McDaniels).

I would love it if you could find me an example of all the times these guards like Rubio have been stopping shots "near the rim". Are we talking within 3 ft or 6 ft? Would like to know how many examples it's based off of? Like two or five Near the rim I can't think of one memory of Rubio doing so. It's got to be based of something, but what? He chased down a couple fast breaks or something?

There are lots of instances where a guard will end up defending a shot near the rim, whether that's on transition, after an offensive rebound, when the player he's defending drives to the rim or when he helps inside. If you want numbers, Russell -being the one that plays the most minutes- has already defended 47 such attempts this year. Another 6'4'' guard like Beasley sits at 55 (tied for 3rd on the team, which is yet another indication of how dumb it is to play such small lineups).

Why will you show the defended attempts numbers for Russell/Beasley but not for Rubio/JMac. I was wondering how many examples these numbers for Rubio/JMac you posted were based on and what"near the basket" was measured as for these.

The extended part you wrote about JMac's defense I don't believe really two words of. We saw it plain as day in the Warriors first game, he was the only guard that could stop Curry. If only Ryan would have let him continue to shadow his time in that first game and then at all in the second. If being able to lock down one of the best scoring guards of this era is described as can't even play defense in this league there is something wrong with your thoughts. Sure, there are huge players he's going to have issue with. Just like the rest of our terrible defenders still have trouble with even with more height. But the Curry example shows there are huge ways this team could be making use of him defensively that they just refuse to very often.

[Sugarless]

But hey, why should anyone expect Wolves fans to value defense and effort, after all? It's not like they value smart players, team-first mentality or... winning, really.

The problem with Rubio and Okogie right now is they have gone too far south on the offensive end. The team ends up literally 4 on 5 every possession on the offensive end. If they are ever together or with another weak offensive player it's now 3 on 5.

They have to find a way to shoot better than in the teens, and stop missing open layups. I saw Ricky drive in another in the last game and he shifted left of rim which gave him a clear run at the layup. How does someone like him miss this? Lack of focus in the final second? Concerned about how he will stop his momentum going out of bounds? What is it? He aptly put himself in position to finish clean but can't finish. He had just missed a short floater a possession or two prior. I don't even know why he didn't pass, maybe trying to get something going for himself. But it's ugly man. I'm not a Rubio hater but it's just been super ugly.

It is odd to say the least ... we need gamers and those kinds of misses are simply deflating.

I agree on the shooting too, but when defenders are cheating on Beasley and DLo, they need to take their cuts or drive. They just dont make their defenders work and allow them to cover out ... then too often settle for some random stepback-3. To their defense, our offense does tend to favor teammates standing in the corners, so the opportunities to hit a cutter backdoor seems unnatural.

It is easier to fix the offense than the defense. You can find workarounds on offense even if you have 2 or 3 guys that can't shoot the ball. The Jazz did it with Rubio at PG, Favors at PF and Gobert at C. They only had Mitchell (not a great shooter, but a good shot creator) and either Ingles (who's a really good shooter, but a reluctant one that usually won't take a shot unless it's wide open) or Royce O'Neale (mostly a non-shooter back then, he's getting a bit more comfortable every year). Rubio's best years as a scorer came with the Jazz and with the Suns, as recently as last season. But having no system in place, seeing players occupy each others' space and having them stand around instead of sorting through screens or cutting to the rim won't help guys like Rubio or Okogie when they need to score. You have to put them in the best position to succeed (or a good one, at least), and the coaching staff is failing miserably at that, if they're even trying. It's no wonder Ricky's back to his worst numbers within 3 feet, similar to what he posted during his worst years in Minnesota, and that his mid-range game (which has been pretty decent for years, even during his 1st Timberwolves stint) has fallen off a cliff as well.

This offense really needs to change for the sake of the franchise and for the mental health of those who watch the games, cause it's terrifying right now.

PS: By the way, it's not just Rubio missing shots around the rim, though he's the worst on the team at 37.5% from less than 5 ft from the basket. McDaniels is at 40%. Ed Davis: 40%. Edwards: 47%. McLaughlin: 52.6%. Juancho: 53.6%. Beasley: 54.1%. You can't have so many guys with such low figures from close range.

[Dewey]

The problem with Rubio and Okogie right now is they have gone too far south on the offensive end. The team ends up literally 4 on 5 every possession on the offensive end. If they are ever together or with another weak offensive player it's now 3 on 5.

They have to find a way to shoot better than in the teens, and stop missing open layups. I saw Ricky drive in another in the last game and he shifted left of rim which gave him a clear run at the layup. How does someone like him miss this? Lack of focus in the final second? Concerned about how he will stop his momentum going out of bounds? What is it? He aptly put himself in position to finish clean but can't finish. He had just missed a short floater a possession or two prior. I don't even know why he didn't pass, maybe trying to get something going for himself. But it's ugly man. I'm not a Rubio hater but it's just been super ugly.

It is odd to say the least ... we need gamers and those kinds of misses are simply deflating.

I agree on the shooting too, but when defenders are cheating on Beasley and DLo, they need to take their cuts or drive. They just dont make their defenders work and allow them to cover out ... then too often settle for some random stepback-3. To their defense, our offense does tend to favor teammates standing in the corners, so the opportunities to hit a cutter backdoor seems unnatural.

It is easier to fix the offense than the defense. You can find workarounds on offense even if you have 2 or 3 guys that can't shoot the ball. The Jazz did it with Rubio at PG, Favors at PF and Gobert at C. They only had Mitchell (not a great shooter, but a good shot creator) and either Ingles (who's a really good shooter, but a reluctant one that usually won't take a shot unless it's wide open) or Royce O'Neale (mostly a non-shooter back then, he's getting a bit more comfortable every year). Rubio's best years as a scorer came with the Jazz and with the Suns, as recently as last season. But having no system in place, seeing players occupy each others' space and having them stand around instead of sorting through screens or cutting to the rim won't help guys like Rubio or Okogie when they need to score. You have to put them in the best position to succeed (or a good one, at least), and the coaching staff is failing miserably at that, if they're even trying. It's no wonder Ricky's back to his worst numbers within 3 feet, similar to what he posted during his worst years in Minnesota, and that his mid-range game (which has been pretty decent for years, even during his 1st Timberwolves stint) has fallen off a cliff as well.

This offense really needs to change for the sake of the franchise and for the mental health of those who watch the games, cause it's terrifying right now.

PS: By the way, it's not just Rubio missing shots around the rim, though he's the worst on the team at 37.5% from less than 5 ft from the basket. McDaniels is at 40%. Ed Davis: 40%. Edwards: 47%. McLaughlin: 52.6%. Juancho: 53.6%. Beasley: 54.1%. You can't have so many guys with such low figures from close range.

um ya