PG: Knicks vs. Thunder: BELT-TO-ASS GAME

[Context]

Turning on Mikal now must be part of amateur hour on realgm… didn’t you all just send in apology forms?

Mikal is a machine. I'm team Mikal. That performance on christmas solidified him for me!

[thebuzzardman]

Knicks fire Thibs and trade everyone yet?

[Spree2Houston]

Knicks fire Thibs and trade everyone yet?

Blow it up and start tanking for Brooklyn

[thebuzzardman]

If you wanted to keep Grimes, he would not develop to what he is now. Thibs had the guy trying to play defense, with corner 3’s. Guys are relegated to their roles in the Thibs system.

Grimes got developed here. He's not anything more in Dallas right now than he was here. He had good games here too, then he'd disappear. Knicks made a decision they were comfortable with Deuce taking that role.

Do I wish they would have kept him? Sure. But he's not suddenly some incredible player or really all that different.

Thibs started him for f*cks sake.

[jvsimonetti0514]

Nobody has ever said the bench is good, that's just a strawman argument these posters use to defend Tom. Everyone says the bench needs to play, regardless of outcome, like the Celtics don't have a good bench at all but they still play more than ours.

You were touting the bench’s net rating the other day. Proudly point out that they were top 10 in league. Why would you do that if you didn’t think the bench was good?

You're quoting a post about strawman arguments, while using a strawman argument, the irony is beautiful. I can point out that the bench is net positive on the season, while still not thinking they're good, because their net rating is just a statistical fact. You won't find me saying the bench is objectively good, because I haven't said that I have said they need to play regardless of whether or not they're good because most benches in the NBA are not good, and the most important thing about utilizing your bench is to help your starters.

Can you please explain to me why Tom's benches are always low minutes? Just one of you Thibs defenders, please just tell me why every fanbase complains about his usage of the bench. In 13 years, his average bench is ranked 24th in MPG, so in 13 years every bench he has basically sucks, or does he just not use them much. The Bulls fans complained about it, the Wolves fans did it and now we do it. I need to know how this could happen three times, in three separate places, to three different rosters in three different eras of the NBA. I want to see you throw logic in the bushes to defend this.

Bringing up a stat that contradicts an argument someone else makes is quite literally the opposite of a strawman argument. You’re directly addressed my claim! Not attacking an argument I didn’t make. Now I’m bringing up the fact that you’ve posted stats that argues that Thibs is dumb for not playing the bench cuz the they’re actually good to your argument that the bench is bad. Which is directly addressing your claim! You just don’t know what straw man argument means. Now I’m supposed to believe that you’re just posting positive stats about the bench and want them to play more but don’t believe it? Like what were we even debating in that thread, if you agree that the bench is bad too? Nah that’s not the case, I’ve just caught you flip flopping and you’re trying to change the subject.

[HarthorneWingo]

If you wanted to keep Grimes, he would not develop to what he is now. Thibs had the guy trying to play defense, with corner 3’s. Guys are relegated to their roles in the Thibs system.

Grimes got developed here. He's not anything more in Dallas right now than he was here. He had good games here too, then he'd disappear. Knicks made a decision they were comfortable with Deuce taking that role.

Do I wish they would have kept him? Sure. But he's not suddenly some incredible player or really all that different.

Thibs started him for f*cks sake.

Actually, it was Donte who took Grimes's spot and made him expendable. Though perhaps they ultimately saw Deuce as Grimes replacement.

[Context]

Knicks fire Thibs and trade everyone yet?

Yes!

Spoiler:

I'm a Nets fan now- you didn't know Buzz?

Spoiler:

No! sir! I'm from Bklyn but its Knicks for life

[GettinitDone]

I do believe the fanbase is suffering from the sky is falling epidemic.

While I will fully acknowledge the minutes are a legitimate concern, and the more than likely outcome is us limping into the playoffs, I’m trying to look bigger picture.

Sports journalists are truly pathetic. For the last two seasons all I heard on the radio, on air, and on podcasts was that the Cavs were pretenders, not tough, ill fitting and that a shake to the core was needed.

Now those very same people are Mia Khalifling them on a regular basis with every other statement being “historical.”

Is it possible, and hear me out, that Allen-Mobley-Garland-Spida playing together for 117 games has helped? Or what about their initial core of Allen-Mobley-Garland having played 157 games together, nearly two full seasons.

It’s not just that. The roster construction is a culmination of the last few years. Dean Wade was undrafted and they recently signed him for 3/18. Sam Merril was pick #60 by NO, added/dropped by MIL and scooped up by the Cavs for 3/5. Okoro, who never panned out as a top 5 pick, was still a young defensive wing developing a 3 and he got 3/32. They wanted more shooting got Strus 4/62 and Niang 3/25. Ty Jerome was shown the door by OKC, Pheonix and GS. Cavs thought they found something and gave him 2/5.

The point is, this has been a culmination of adding talent, player development, taking chances, and their core getting more experience for the past three seasons.

This Knicks SL has played 37 games together. The core had a huge shakeup in general. I understand it’s NY and when the ugliness shows it’s the coaching staff, players, medical team, cleaning crew, concession crew and Dolans fault.

Think everyone should get a little drunk tonight it’s Saturday.

The Cavs also fired the coach that helped turn things around, they weren't afraid to move on when they had to. And the funny part is Bickerstaff has turned the Pistons around.

i think a lot of the staunch thibs backers are afraid of moving on because of the terrible luck we’ve had with coaches before he got here which is totally understandable. hell i was the same way for awhile before this szn, but there comes a time when you gotta recognize the pattern and peep the signs that it might be time to pivot

When we fire thibs for a worse coach it's going to start a war you may not be able to win. don't go down this path brother!

Yes they are

But just like they say, in today's age, playing it safe is the riskiest move you can make.

Warriors fired Mark and hired Kerr who had no experience and he built a dynasty.
C's hired Mazulla who had no experience and he led them to a title (even no experience Udoka also almost led them to a title).

Thibs has his backers in a warm and cozy safe blanket at home sipping hot choc, but not outside conquering the lions and bears infested roads to the mountain top.

Thibs immediately raises the floor of any team he goes to, but unfortunately the ceiling is not far off from the floor. Ironically his playing time management is his very undoing/ ceiling.

[Clyde_Style]

Turning on Mikal now must be part of amateur hour on realgm… didn’t you all just send in apology forms?

I said last night Mikal is the player I'd give the most slack at the moment. He was the most consistently excellent Knick in December.

He also led the league in minutes played.

People shoot poorly when they are exhausted. It's kind of a fact actually.

[Clyde_Style]

Knicks fire Thibs and trade everyone yet?

We're working on it!

[Kampuchea]

:lol:

Clyde here doing a book signing I just walked by him, wearing some wild suit as usual. Some animal print

Winning and Grinning book, he’s at American Dream in NJ

I’m gonna ask him about these realgm minutes police

I dare you!

He wants Thibs gone, slammed the table in disgust once I said the word “minutes” and said Thibs is going to end OGs career. His handlers came over and calmed him down

[Gravy]

Shame you have to lie so much.





Dice could be interim, but acting like there's no other coaches out there is comical. Like Mazzulla, Daignault, Jenkins were household names before they got coaching jobs. The Celtics let Ime go and had Mazzulla right there, it says a lot about Thibs if his coaching tree doesn't have any success stories.

viewtopic.php?p=113151542#p113151542

Brunson is the reason, he is a top 10 player on his own merit and talent. There is no bigger reason for us being a contender moving forward than him being a superstar on deal vastly underpaying him relative to his performance. The Celtics should be a good indication of player vs coach, I mean Ime is a great coach, but the players matter more.

Which coach? Upgrade Bryant or Dice, the culture is set. I don't want to go through another season of watching guys drop like flies before and during the playoffs.

You've always hated Thibs and think anybody else could do a much better job. So lets all tell Dolan to make Dice the coach since Thibs is close to getting fired any day now.

Hey Gravy, how can we upgrade Bryant if he's gone? Why am I mentioning that Bryant is gone in the other post but want to upgrade him in the one you posted, that's right, because you're using an older post. Even then, I'd take Dice as an interim coach, we're not winning a title this year with Thibs anyway, just as we won't win one with Dice.


I don't hate Thibs, I don't hate anyone, this is you just applying some nonsense because you're emotional about this. I do however want him gone, and I have been talking about his minutes abuse since last season.

I'm just repeating what you said, you prefer Dice and any coach top 2 in minutes is getting fired soon. The amount of crashing out over this around here is way more emotional than me. I'm enjoying the team.. and the unhinged meltdowns too! lol

My stance is most fans overrated our team and now expects them to win a championship and is blaming the coach when the team just does not have enough to contend with the elites yet. KAT is great offensively but our defense still took a major hit with him at center. The loss of Randle is big because Hart added much more depth off the bench, and speaking of the bench... Sure the minutes are a problem but that's because of a very thin roster IMO.

Its easy low hanging fruit to blame the coach at the first sign of trouble especially with his perceived hatred of all kids. Like ol' shammy said every fanbase does it. I'm just explaining why I think there are other reasons its not as good as we want it to be yet.

[Context]

I’m gonna ask him about these realgm minutes police

I dare you!

He wants Thibs gone, slammed the table in disgust once I said the word “minutes” and said Thibs is going to end OGs career. His handlers came over and calmed him down

[JayTWill]

I dont even know how we got the players we have now lol. Thats why I dont do trades and transactions. If you believe Atkinson or anyone except Thibs would have us with the same record as the Cavs, ok, I cant really prove or disprove that. I've noticed in the last 20 years of Knicksdom we always blame the coach first then years later after he's fired we realize the players he had were actually not that good. Happens every time

So you continue to shoot down the idea of a coaching change possibly improving the team but you can't think of a single trade idea to possibly improve the team? You might be the Tom Thibodeau of posters with your lack of imagination and stubbornness. Just kidding....

It's not about simply blaming the coach. I was one of the few people that has been critical of the moves they have made after the OG trade. I was not a fan of the team they had built and the way they had managed their assets but none of that can be changed now. They can't bring Grimes and those second round picks back. They can't bring those 5 1sts, a swap, and high 2nd back. They can't stop iHart from walking. They can't bring DDV back. I don't want them to bring Randle back.

They have limited trade assets to make a significant improvement to the roster. They have limited room for internal growth outside of the rookies. More vet min additions are unlikely to make a bigger impact than the guys currently on the bench. So where else can I look to possibly improve the team?

How can you watch OKC manhandle the Knicks with young depth and not think investing time in developing the youth on the court could be beneficial?

How could watch OKC switch, trap, blitz, double-team, play zone etc with a historically great defense while the other coach has been running the same defense forever no matter the personnel and not think there could be some possible improvements to the coach's defensive strategy?

How could you watch Brunson pound the air out of the ball year after year no matter how much talent he has around him while the team plays near the slowest pace in the league once again and not think there could possibly be some improvement in the coach's offensive strategy?

Who is the new coach you want to get?

Since you seem to be so caught up in the idea of people simply blaming the coach I will quote myself to show my opinion on the coach, the roster and the depth from September right after the KAT trade...

Spoiler:

Thibs is who he is and KAT is who he is until they show me something different. KAT struggled with Thibs defensively before and I don't think an injury prone Mitch solves that problem.

Offensively we are fantasizing about all the spacing and how much better things will look as if Thibs is some incredible offensive mind. As if the offense has not always been somebody pounding the air out of the ball with everyone else just standing around. Brunson will have a ton of space to do his thing but a 6'1-6'2 guard is not some unstoppable force no matter how much we talk crap about anyone who disagrees.

Steph had a ton of success in the league as a small guard but their championship offense led by him is the complete opposite of Thibs' offense. Maybe this is the year Thibs finally unlocks his massive playbook he has created from all the hours studying film but he has not done it up until this point no matter who he had on the roster. Maybe the new personnel changes things but I expect to see different players forced to iso no matter if they are qualified to do it no matter what. I expect to see Brunson have a ton of success doing it while others may struggle. Thibs will have to be more creative on both ends of the court for this to succeed.

They have now built a roster with questionable depth and multiple injury prone players. Guys like Payne, Precious and (Morris) were all out of the rotation at the start of the postseason which is a pretty clear indicator that their coaches did not believe they could contribute to winning at that time. Of their top 7 players 3 of them are huge injury risks. It's an incredibly fragile team with weak depth imo.

I have been critical of Thibs' coaching, the top players, the bench, the roster construction and the organization's asset management. This off-season I was ready to move on from Randle, Mitch and Thibs. Having a discussion about new coaches is a lot more difficult than having a discussion about new players since many good coaches were previously unknown and unproven until given an opportunity. Thibs has already been given plenty of opportunities in this league. We know exactly who he is.

I'm less concerned with who the coach is and more concerned with what their coaching philosophy will be. I just want a coach that is more creative offensively and more flexible defensively along with being better at managing the rotation. It's great that Thibs can get guys to run through a wall for him but it would be nice if there was an actual strategy to go around or over the wall instead sometimes.

If you just want me to throw out a realistic name that should be available I wouldn't mind the organization interviewing James Borrego, former Hornets coach and the Cavs 2nd option behind Atkinson this off-season. 47 years old. From the Pop coaching tree. Considered a good offensive mind. Had some experience building an offense around a small scoring guard in Kemba before they went into a quick reset trading Kemba away and got the team back to 42 wins in a couple years. Flamed out in the play-in game 2 years in a row with a young roster.

His offensive system requires more player movement and off-ball screening but simplifies the reads for the on-ball player which I think would be beneficial for a team like ours that lacks a true distributor in the current rotation.

I'm also open to making adjustments to the roster and rotation as I feel the team has too many guys that want/need touches similar to the pre-OG 2023-2024 Knicks but not enough guys to do the little things. I will save that discussion for the trade board or trade thread. So, what changes would you make? Do you just want to continue what we are doing right now?

[Chanel Bomber]

Grimes played well for us before he lost his confidence from being shook in the Miami series.

Championship teams can always use low-usage specialists who don't aspire to bite off more than they can chew.

PJ Tucker was one of the best role players in the league and every contender fought over his services for about a half-decade yet I don't think he ever averaged 10 ppg. Bruce Brown was critical to Denver's ring. I could go on and on.

It's too bad we didn't or couldn't keep him.

[Gravy]

So you continue to shoot down the idea of a coaching change possibly improving the team but you can't think of a single trade idea to possibly improve the team? You might be the Tom Thibodeau of posters with your lack of imagination and stubbornness. Just kidding....

It's not about simply blaming the coach. I was one of the few people that has been critical of the moves they have made after the OG trade. I was not a fan of the team they had built and the way they had managed their assets but none of that can be changed now. They can't bring Grimes and those second round picks back. They can't bring those 5 1sts, a swap, and high 2nd back. They can't stop iHart from walking. They can't bring DDV back. I don't want them to bring Randle back.

They have limited trade assets to make a significant improvement to the roster. They have limited room for internal growth outside of the rookies. More vet min additions are unlikely to make a bigger impact than the guys currently on the bench. So where else can I look to possibly improve the team?

How can you watch OKC manhandle the Knicks with young depth and not think investing time in developing the youth on the court could be beneficial?

How could watch OKC switch, trap, blitz, double-team, play zone etc with a historically great defense while the other coach has been running the same defense forever no matter the personnel and not think there could be some possible improvements to the coach's defensive strategy?

How could you watch Brunson pound the air out of the ball year after year no matter how much talent he has around him while the team plays near the slowest pace in the league once again and not think there could possibly be some improvement in the coach's offensive strategy?

Who is the new coach you want to get?

Since you seem to be so caught up in the idea of people simply blaming the coach I will quote myself to show my opinion on the coach, the roster and the depth from September right after the KAT trade...

Spoiler:

Thibs is who he is and KAT is who he is until they show me something different. KAT struggled with Thibs defensively before and I don't think an injury prone Mitch solves that problem.

Offensively we are fantasizing about all the spacing and how much better things will look as if Thibs is some incredible offensive mind. As if the offense has not always been somebody pounding the air out of the ball with everyone else just standing around. Brunson will have a ton of space to do his thing but a 6'1-6'2 guard is not some unstoppable force no matter how much we talk crap about anyone who disagrees.

Steph had a ton of success in the league as a small guard but their championship offense led by him is the complete opposite of Thibs' offense. Maybe this is the year Thibs finally unlocks his massive playbook he has created from all the hours studying film but he has not done it up until this point no matter who he had on the roster. Maybe the new personnel changes things but I expect to see different players forced to iso no matter if they are qualified to do it no matter what. I expect to see Brunson have a ton of success doing it while others may struggle. Thibs will have to be more creative on both ends of the court for this to succeed.

They have now built a roster with questionable depth and multiple injury prone players. Guys like Payne, Precious and (Morris) were all out of the rotation at the start of the postseason which is a pretty clear indicator that their coaches did not believe they could contribute to winning at that time. Of their top 7 players 3 of them are huge injury risks. It's an incredibly fragile team with weak depth imo.

I have been critical of Thibs' coaching, the top players, the bench, the roster construction and the organization's asset management. This off-season I was ready to move on from Randle, Mitch and Thibs. Having a discussion about new coaches is a lot more difficult than having a discussion about new players since many good coaches were previously unknown and unproven until given an opportunity. Thibs has already been given plenty of opportunities in this league. We know exactly who he is.

I'm less concerned with who the coach is and more concerned with what their coaching philosophy will be. I just want a coach that is more creative offensively and more flexible defensively along with being better at managing the rotation. It's great that Thibs can get guys to run through a wall for him but it would be nice if there was an actual strategy to go around or over the wall instead sometimes.

If you just want me to throw out a realistic name that should be available I wouldn't mind the organization interviewing James Borrego, former Hornets coach and the Cavs 2nd option behind Atkinson this off-season. 47 years old. From the Pop coaching tree. Considered a good offensive mind. Had some experience building an offense around a small scoring guard in Kemba before they went into a quick reset trading Kemba away and got the team back to 42 wins in a couple years. Flamed out in the play-in game 2 years in a row with a young roster.

His offensive system requires more player movement and off-ball screening but simplifies the reads for the on-ball player which I think would be beneficial for a team like ours that lacks a true distributor in the current rotation.

I'm also open to making adjustments to the roster and rotation as I feel the team has too many guys that want/need touches similar to the pre-OG 2023-2024 Knicks but not enough guys to do the little things. I will save that discussion for the trade board or trade thread. So, what changes would you make? Do you just want to continue what we are doing right now?

Thanks for a coaching suggestion. I don't know much about Borrego so I looked up what Hornets fans said about him and they say he has some deep flaws with defense, short rotations and player development:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vk0b2b/what_was_wrong_with_james_borrego/

Spoiler:

Coached some of the worst defenses in the league. It's tough to say how much is to blame on young/bad defensive players but the end product on the court wasn't pretty. Lots of bad rotations, glaring mistakes, missing every rebound in the clutch, etc.

Overrated offense. Yeah the scoring totals were high and the assist numbers were excellent but it was always a regular season gimmicks. Overreliance on transition buckets, players struggling to create when chased off the 3pt line. This is also probably why the defense sucked tbh. Both seasons the offense actually collapsed down the stretch and we routinely were shut down by actual playoff teams. I'd rather have a consistent 115ppg team than a team that scores 145 on tanking teams and 100 against good defenses.

Strange personnel decisions. I'm not talking about the rotations that every fan complains about, I'm talking about only using 8-man lineups on a team that is not very top-heavy. Cutting average rookies for months at a time to play mediocre vets. He did the exact same thing in 2020 too. DNP'd Malik Monk until January only for him to have his best season of his career to that point. Cut Batum out of the lineup to the point where we were compelled to stretch his contract only for him to bolt to the Clippers and become a top role player. This is a fine strategy if the results can back it up with results, but two 10th place finishes just doesn't justify DNPing our lottery picks for half of the season. It's no secret that he also feuded with Kupchak over this very issue (the Vernon Carey Brooklyn game comes to mind)

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[–]Hornetsmauszx 7 points 2 years ago

You forget this, Calling every young player from the GLeague just to have them DNPs all the time. Having 4 young promising Center and not playing them even when your starter Center was injured. He didn't develop, he didn't win, LaMelo seemed to lost respect for him at the end of the season.

But who knows, maybe he comes here and takes us to the next level.

What I would do is not the sexy option, I would be patient. This is year 1 of this iteration of the team. There were three major trades in the calendar season two of which were in the summer. All the trades drained us of depth. Despite that we just had a 9 game winning streak last week. The next few weeks are important, If the wheels fall off and they start losing, Thibs may be on the hot seat and you could get Borrego.

[TheGreenArrow]

Read on Twitter

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[Guano]

Leon isn't a guy that's gonna let a friend ruin his legacy. Thibs will be gone in this offseason when we lose in the 2nd round.

Just hope we don't suffer any major injuries between then. If not we will have some more highs and lows this season when we inevitably lose in the 2nd round

[TheGreenArrow]

Leon isn't a guy that's gonna let a friend ruin his legacy. Thibs will be gone in this offseason when we lose in the 2nd round.

Just hope we don't suffer any major injuries between then. If not we will have some more highs and lows this season when we inevitably lose in the 2nd round

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=W09F6FrMDfp5_y1gKYgF1g

Heads are about to roll Guanyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guano]

Leon isn't a guy that's gonna let a friend ruin his legacy. Thibs will be gone in this offseason when we lose in the 2nd round.

Just hope we don't suffer any major injuries between then. If not we will have some more highs and lows this season when we inevitably lose in the 2nd round

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=W09F6FrMDfp5_y1gKYgF1g

Heads are about to roll Guanyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good
It's a mess

While they're at it they need to trade Mitch for a bench wing