NBA Draft Thread XI: 9 Levels of Hell Edition (9th pick)

[nykballa2k4]

Exactly! BDiddy too. You would not want to be left on an Island with BDiddy

when i think of handle i think of control, not and 1 barnstorming. nash was not the flashiest dribbler of his day. i guess we weren't talking about the same thing.

Well then every NBA PG is going to be considered "elite" because they all have ball control. When I think of elite I think of NBA standards not average hooper standards. So I will never put a guy like Jeff Teague and Kyrie Irving in the same "elite" category. Or a guy like Mike Conley with CP3. That's just me.

How did you get that idea out of the convo at hand? AI vs Nash is comparing two capable ball handlers who were adept at getting into the paint. No one is talking about Charlie Ward, Derek Fisher, Steve Blake etc as "elite ball handlers". As long as you can "break down man coverage" and effectively split a double team, I think that get's you in the convo then it's just degrees.

You have guys who can execute a 1 on 1 move and get open space, but when doubled struggle. Then you have guys who won't be able to single handedly get into the paint, but with even the facade of a screen coming can exploit the gap and get inside. The real ones can do both. IMO.

[nykballa2k4]

when i think of handle i think of control, not and 1 barnstorming. nash was not the flashiest dribbler of his day. i guess we weren't talking about the same thing.

i hate the dribble debate lol i think it comes down to preference im like hezi how well you can shake with the ball is how i define how elite a guys handles are. someone else like maybe yourself will look a lebron and say he has elite handle because how well he can control the ball meanwhile i dont think his handles are all that because he aint really shaking with the ball like A.i or prime jamal crawford. Neither side is really wrong its just different ways of showing the handle.

The way I look at it is if you take away a players passing options and put him in a double team environment, who will have an easier time escaping it. That's how you can judge who really got elite handles. Like when you play a game of 21 and it's basically 1 versus multiple defenders, that's when you can tell who really got handles because he's got no passing options. It's either you escape and score or get locked down.

That would be a fantastic idea for a pre-draft work out

[cuyankees]

Actually very curious to see a roll call thread w people posting whether they played D1? And/or coach/do more than play pickup occasionally?

Played in top division @ Chelsea Piers w mostly made up of semi pro D1 players and help w a top AAU program in the city. Most of these posts by armchair scouts are just craziness. On another thread, somewhere swore Doncic is overrated n late Rd pick.

Scouted for big D3, wound up at Vanderbilt and was going to walk on senior year. Back spasms came the day before - because of course an injury from HS would screw me over the day before. Sucked because I knew I was going to make it (or had a damn good chance). Team was bad (2012-13), but whatever. Would have been awesome. And, as many know because I post it all the time, I used to work in the front office for a team doing stats/analytics, scouting, helping with coaches, etc before going to law school/after graduating undergrad. Then played intramurals during law school and wow are there some people who are just bad who think they're good.

There are some here who legitimately know what they're talking about, but, even without the experience playing or working, they could still have a good basketball eye.

Interesting background, surprised to see a presumed bball "junky" go to law school. Both very analytical routes w 1 a more "stable" life.

[whocares1]

Exactly! BDiddy too. You would not want to be left on an Island with BDiddy

when i think of handle i think of control, not and 1 barnstorming. nash was not the flashiest dribbler of his day. i guess we weren't talking about the same thing.

Well then every NBA PG is going to be considered "elite" because they all have ball control. When I think of elite I think of NBA standards not average hooper standards. So I will never put a guy like Jeff Teague and Kyrie Irving in the same "elite" category. Or a guy like Mike Conley with CP3. That's just me.

Ball control is a sign of elite handling though. If opponents cannot disrupt your handle even with added pressure then I’d consider you elite. Like would you consider Lance Stephenson an elite dribbler? He can shake you but he might straight up lose it. If no one dares swipe at your dribble then I’d consider that elite even if you aren’t shaking people out of their shoes.

[NBA Fan 1234]

Actually very curious to see a roll call thread w people posting whether they played D1? And/or coach/do more than play pickup occasionally?

Played in top division @ Chelsea Piers w mostly made up of semi pro D1 players and help w a top AAU program in the city. Most of these posts by armchair scouts are just craziness. On another thread, somewhere swore Doncic is overrated n late Rd pick.

Scouted for big D3, wound up at Vanderbilt and was going to walk on senior year. Back spasms came the day before - because of course an injury from HS would screw me over the day before. Sucked because I knew I was going to make it (or had a damn good chance). Team was bad (2012-13), but whatever. Would have been awesome. And, as many know because I post it all the time, I used to work in the front office for a team doing stats/analytics, scouting, helping with coaches, etc before going to law school/after graduating undergrad. Then played intramurals during law school and wow are there some people who are just bad who think they're good.

There are some here who legitimately know what they're talking about, but, even without the experience playing or working, they could still have a good basketball eye.

Interesting background, surprised to see a presumed bball "junky" go to law school. Both very analytical routes w 1 a more "stable" life.

I'll tell you the same thing I tell everyone else - it's a means to an end...and hopefully that end comes soon. Trust me when I say the only reason I went to law school was to get back into the front office. I've spoken with many FO personnel who have actually gone the same route - undergrad, law school, to front office. Knicks own Michael Arcieri graduated from law school and is now the director of basketball strategy (?).

[cuyankees]

when i think of handle i think of control, not and 1 barnstorming. nash was not the flashiest dribbler of his day. i guess we weren't talking about the same thing.

i hate the dribble debate lol i think it comes down to preference im like hezi how well you can shake with the ball is how i define how elite a guys handles are. someone else like maybe yourself will look a lebron and say he has elite handle because how well he can control the ball meanwhile i dont think his handles are all that because he aint really shaking with the ball like A.i or prime jamal crawford. Neither side is really wrong its just different ways of showing the handle.

The way I look at it is if you take away a players passing options and put him in a double team environment, who will have an easier time escaping it. That's how you can judge who really got elite handles. Like when you play a game of 21 and it's basically 1 versus multiple defenders, that's when you can tell who really got handles because he's got no passing options. It's either you escape and score or get locked down.

Terrible idea and against fundamental idea that you rec the double team coming and pass out of it. Imagine most would elite ball handlers would fail @ it bc they're programmed to pass out of it than dribble through it.

NBA is NOT a game of 21.

[MaseInYourFace]

Its not that. The problem here is that unlike Curry, who has 4 capable defenders surrounding him along with 2 others coming off the bench, we don't have the team to compensate his deficiencies. He along with Kanter and having THJ at the 3 full time kills this team. He does not make us better, he just makes us a revolving door. We complain about bad defending point guards more than anything. How did things work out for us with Rose on defense and how much did this board complain about it? Raymond Felton, Shane Larkin, Jack, Jennings, Duhon, Fransis, Crawford, Marbury, Robinson, Mooch, and Eisley were all bad defenders and we complaied every game about all of them.

N.Y is supposed to be known for hard nose, step on them while there down type of players and thats why other fans hated us and other teams hated playing us. But within the past ten years we've brought in soft azz, non defensive players with no heart and only care about shooting. Can this please stop! We have one of the strongest defensive point guards in the league and people complain that he doesn't shoot. He's the youngest player in the league! Surround him with players like Miles or Mikal, pick up another star next summer along with another draft pick which I guarantee will be around 10th (we're not bad enough to drop lower), and lets roll with it. Do not trade our future and please no more guards that can't guard!

Neither were GS when they drafted Curry. Knicks just need to get talent.. They aren't at the point yet where they can not pick guys over fit and etc. They really don't need to be thinking that way.

The problem with Young is while he has great range and court vision he takes low IQ shots and doesn't have the ball handling skills to create for himself on the NBA level. He is not Curry and won't be Curry. I see him more as a Jason Williams type without his handles. He is not a cornerstone PG you invest a top 10 pick in.

There is a problem with every player.

[cuyankees]

Scouted for big D3, wound up at Vanderbilt and was going to walk on senior year. Back spasms came the day before - because of course an injury from HS would screw me over the day before. Sucked because I knew I was going to make it (or had a damn good chance). Team was bad (2012-13), but whatever. Would have been awesome. And, as many know because I post it all the time, I used to work in the front office for a team doing stats/analytics, scouting, helping with coaches, etc before going to law school/after graduating undergrad. Then played intramurals during law school and wow are there some people who are just bad who think they're good.

There are some here who legitimately know what they're talking about, but, even without the experience playing or working, they could still have a good basketball eye.

Interesting background, surprised to see a presumed bball "junky" go to law school. Both very analytical routes w 1 a more "stable" life.

I'll tell you the same thing I tell everyone else - it's a means to an end...and hopefully that end comes soon. Trust me when I say the only reason I went to law school was to get back into the front office. I've spoken with many FO personnel who have actually gone the same route - undergrad, law school, to front office. Knicks own Michael Arcieri graduated from law school and is now the director of basketball strategy (?).

Makes total sense, law school is a good prep for many industries outside of law. Hell, recent stats prob show most law grads don't even become lawyers.

[Polk377]

Neither were GS when they drafted Curry. Knicks just need to get talent.. They aren't at the point yet where they can not pick guys over fit and etc. They really don't need to be thinking that way.

The problem with Young is while he has great range and court vision he takes low IQ shots and doesn't have the ball handling skills to create for himself on the NBA level. He is not Curry and won't be Curry. I see him more as a Jason Williams type without his handles. He is not a cornerstone PG you invest a top 10 pick in.

There is a problem with every player.

Of course there is. Just pointing out his.

[HEZI]

when i think of handle i think of control, not and 1 barnstorming. nash was not the flashiest dribbler of his day. i guess we weren't talking about the same thing.

Well then every NBA PG is going to be considered "elite" because they all have ball control. When I think of elite I think of NBA standards not average hooper standards. So I will never put a guy like Jeff Teague and Kyrie Irving in the same "elite" category. Or a guy like Mike Conley with CP3. That's just me.

How did you get that idea out of the convo at hand? AI vs Nash is comparing two capable ball handlers who were adept at getting into the paint. No one is talking about Charlie Ward, Derek Fisher, Steve Blake etc as "elite ball handlers". As long as you can "break down man coverage" and effectively split a double team, I think that get's you in the convo then it's just degrees.

You have guys who can execute a 1 on 1 move and get open space, but when doubled struggle. Then you have guys who won't be able to single handedly get into the paint, but with even the facade of a screen coming can exploit the gap and get inside. The real ones can do both. IMO.

You mentioned it right there, "degrees". So how do we distinguish these degrees then? I just make it simple and say the elite ball handlers are guys at the very top, guys who have the complete package when it comes to handles. The rest can be either very good or good or bad. I already said Nash had a very good handle, I simply don't consider it elite by the "degrees" metric we are using.

[TheGreenArrow]

Next years lineup

Trae Young
Trey Burke
Tim Hardaway
Michael Beasley
Enes Kanter

Beautiful on the road to 0-82!!!!

[TheGreenArrow]

Read on Twitter

Have mikal going to the cavs and young to the knicks......

[nykballa2k4]

Well then every NBA PG is going to be considered "elite" because they all have ball control. When I think of elite I think of NBA standards not average hooper standards. So I will never put a guy like Jeff Teague and Kyrie Irving in the same "elite" category. Or a guy like Mike Conley with CP3. That's just me.

How did you get that idea out of the convo at hand? AI vs Nash is comparing two capable ball handlers who were adept at getting into the paint. No one is talking about Charlie Ward, Derek Fisher, Steve Blake etc as "elite ball handlers". As long as you can "break down man coverage" and effectively split a double team, I think that get's you in the convo then it's just degrees.

You have guys who can execute a 1 on 1 move and get open space, but when doubled struggle. Then you have guys who won't be able to single handedly get into the paint, but with even the facade of a screen coming can exploit the gap and get inside. The real ones can do both. IMO.

You mentioned it right there, "degrees". So how do we distinguish these degrees then? I just make it simple and say the elite ball handlers are guys at the very top, guys who have the complete package when it comes to handles. The rest can be either very good or good or bad. I already said Nash had a very good handle, I simply don't consider it elite by the "degrees" metric we are using.

Could Nash penetrate at will? Was he often having his pocket picked? I would say he is elite, but not in that "impossible" category. AI, a comparison here, had the 2nd best cross in the game all time, but I would consider him similar to Nash because the results were similar.

Kyrie, Baron Davis are perhaps in a different category but I don't think "elite" has to apply to one player every 10 years.

[Da_Mane_Man]

*Checks in* "Knicks targeting Trae Young at 9"

*Checks out*

[newyorker4ever]

Actually very curious to see a roll call thread w people posting whether they played D1? And/or coach/do more than play pickup occasionally?

Played in top division @ Chelsea Piers w mostly made up of semi pro D1 players and help w a top AAU program in the city. Most of these posts by armchair scouts are just craziness. On another thread, somewhere swore Doncic is overrated n late Rd pick.

Scouted for big D3, wound up at Vanderbilt and was going to walk on senior year. Back spasms came the day before - because of course an injury from HS would screw me over the day before. Sucked because I knew I was going to make it (or had a damn good chance). Team was bad (2012-13), but whatever. Would have been awesome. And, as many know because I post it all the time, I used to work in the front office for a team doing stats/analytics, scouting, helping with coaches, etc before going to law school/after graduating undergrad. Then played intramurals during law school and wow are there some people who are just bad who think they're good.

There are some here who legitimately know what they're talking about, but, even without the experience playing or working, they could still have a good basketball eye.

Speaking of Vanderbilt....and chance J.Vanderbilt drops to our spot in the 2nd round? I've seen some people say they think he might.

[HEZI]

when i think of handle i think of control, not and 1 barnstorming. nash was not the flashiest dribbler of his day. i guess we weren't talking about the same thing.

Well then every NBA PG is going to be considered "elite" because they all have ball control. When I think of elite I think of NBA standards not average hooper standards. So I will never put a guy like Jeff Teague and Kyrie Irving in the same "elite" category. Or a guy like Mike Conley with CP3. That's just me.

Ball control is a sign of elite handling though. If opponents cannot disrupt your handle even with added pressure then I’d consider you elite. Like would you consider Lance Stephenson an elite dribbler? He can shake you but he might straight up lose it. If no one dares swipe at your dribble then I’d consider that elite even if you aren’t shaking people out of their shoes.

I'm not talking about flashy handles, I'm talking about effectiveness of it. None of the guys that I consider elite are lacking in the ball control category.

[NBA Fan 1234]

Actually very curious to see a roll call thread w people posting whether they played D1? And/or coach/do more than play pickup occasionally?

Played in top division @ Chelsea Piers w mostly made up of semi pro D1 players and help w a top AAU program in the city. Most of these posts by armchair scouts are just craziness. On another thread, somewhere swore Doncic is overrated n late Rd pick.

Scouted for big D3, wound up at Vanderbilt and was going to walk on senior year. Back spasms came the day before - because of course an injury from HS would screw me over the day before. Sucked because I knew I was going to make it (or had a damn good chance). Team was bad (2012-13), but whatever. Would have been awesome. And, as many know because I post it all the time, I used to work in the front office for a team doing stats/analytics, scouting, helping with coaches, etc before going to law school/after graduating undergrad. Then played intramurals during law school and wow are there some people who are just bad who think they're good.

There are some here who legitimately know what they're talking about, but, even without the experience playing or working, they could still have a good basketball eye.

Speaking of Vanderbilt....and chance J.Vanderbilt drops to our spot in the 2nd round? I've seen some people say they think he might.

As of this minute, yah, I think he’d fall to second...which is why I think he goes back. Maybe he sneaks into Kaye first? Don’t think he signed with an agent yet and will probably wait until last couple of days before deciding.

[HEZI]

How did you get that idea out of the convo at hand? AI vs Nash is comparing two capable ball handlers who were adept at getting into the paint. No one is talking about Charlie Ward, Derek Fisher, Steve Blake etc as "elite ball handlers". As long as you can "break down man coverage" and effectively split a double team, I think that get's you in the convo then it's just degrees.

You have guys who can execute a 1 on 1 move and get open space, but when doubled struggle. Then you have guys who won't be able to single handedly get into the paint, but with even the facade of a screen coming can exploit the gap and get inside. The real ones can do both. IMO.

You mentioned it right there, "degrees". So how do we distinguish these degrees then? I just make it simple and say the elite ball handlers are guys at the very top, guys who have the complete package when it comes to handles. The rest can be either very good or good or bad. I already said Nash had a very good handle, I simply don't consider it elite by the "degrees" metric we are using.

Could Nash penetrate at will? Was he often having his pocket picked? I would say he is elite, but not in that "impossible" category. AI, a comparison here, had the 2nd best cross in the game all time, but I would consider him similar to Nash because the results were similar.

Kyrie, Baron Davis are perhaps in a different category but I don't think "elite" has to apply to one player every 10 years.

No he couldn't penetrate at will. That's my whole point. Nash was a passer and an incredibly gifted one at that, so he was unpredictable with his passing ability, not so much with his handles. You had no idea where he was slinging that ball to so he always had you guessing. Iverson on the other hand was a scorer, everybody knew what he was trying to do every time he came down the court with the ball you knew Iverson was looking to score but you still couldn't stop him because he had the package to break you down and still score. Iverson's ability to get to the basket and Nash's ability to get to the basket are not on the same level.

[nykinoz]

Good lord, they can't be serious?

[Greenie]

when i think of handle i think of control, not and 1 barnstorming. nash was not the flashiest dribbler of his day. i guess we weren't talking about the same thing.

i hate the dribble debate lol i think it comes down to preference im like hezi how well you can shake with the ball is how i define how elite a guys handles are. someone else like maybe yourself will look a lebron and say he has elite handle because how well he can control the ball meanwhile i dont think his handles are all that because he aint really shaking with the ball like A.i or prime jamal crawford. Neither side is really wrong

Ball handling is all about can you take your man where you want to go or does your man dictate where you go for you. Great ball handlers know how to use their moves to get to their spots and there is not much that can be done to stop them. Take a look at Trey Burke as an example. He gets to his spot whenever he wants because of his elite handle.

Nah.
Elite means you can dance with your dribble.

Trey can dance a little. Not very much though.

Now Kyrie and Steph?
They will two step on you.