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What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic?

Moderators: UCFJayBird, MagicMadness, Howard Mass, ChosenSavior, SOUL, Def Swami

I wouldn't pay Vuc anything more than $ ___ Million per year on his next 4 year contract.

$30M
2
3%
$29M
0
No votes
$28M
1
1%
$27M
4
6%
$26M
0
No votes
$25M
17
25%
$24M
10
15%
$23M
5
7%
$22M
11
16%
$21M
18
26%
 
Total votes: 68

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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#181 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Fri May 17, 2019 2:24 pm

MoMM wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
Atlanta could go hard after Vuc as well. They could give Vuc 20-25M over 4 year and still have plenty of $$ for a 2nd/3rd tier guy like a Middleton etc etc. Trae & Vuc in PnR with Collins at PF would be scary good. Atlanta hits on FA signings and Trae Collins continue to develop while 8 &10 pick come along they could be scary good.

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I'm doubtful Vucevic would want to play in Atlanta. Magic would pay 20-25m too. Atlanta has one of deadest arenas in NBA and are years away from contention, even playoffs aren't a given with such a young roster.

Seems like Atlanta would be looking for a low USG defensive specialist at C to hide Collins and Young's serious defensive issues. They are already committing a lot of salary at C as they owe Plumlee $12.5m to be the 3d big. Seems like they'd be looking at wings/forward, not add salary at C. They can keep Alex Len (25) over the cap too as they have his RFA rights, and he had a solid year and improved a lot as the year went on.

They already have Len and Plumlee signed for next season (17M) and I believe that they might draft another center with one of their Top 10 picks, that's way cheaper and they are not in win-mode, so it makes sense for them, IMO. They could just play their cards this season and save money for 2020 offseason when Len, Plumlee and Kent will expire (36M).


2020 offseason doesn't really have a ton of good options in terms of FA that could make a difference. If they're not going to really compete next year... then why not grab Vuc for multi years and let him get a free gelling year with Trae, Collins and the other players.

Just was another team with Cap Space that is looking to take another step towards playoffs who already has a PG of the future, PF and intriguing pieces. C and Wing would seem like the logical next steps to improve that roster. Atlanta could absolutely draft a Hayes from Texas and if they do then Vuc is off the list for sure.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#182 » by MoMM » Fri May 17, 2019 2:46 pm

MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
MoMM wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
I'm doubtful Vucevic would want to play in Atlanta. Magic would pay 20-25m too. Atlanta has one of deadest arenas in NBA and are years away from contention, even playoffs aren't a given with such a young roster.

Seems like Atlanta would be looking for a low USG defensive specialist at C to hide Collins and Young's serious defensive issues. They are already committing a lot of salary at C as they owe Plumlee $12.5m to be the 3d big. Seems like they'd be looking at wings/forward, not add salary at C. They can keep Alex Len (25) over the cap too as they have his RFA rights, and he had a solid year and improved a lot as the year went on.

They already have Len and Plumlee signed for next season (17M) and I believe that they might draft another center with one of their Top 10 picks, that's way cheaper and they are not in win-mode, so it makes sense for them, IMO. They could just play their cards this season and save money for 2020 offseason when Len, Plumlee and Kent will expire (36M).


2020 offseason doesn't really have a ton of good options in terms of FA that could make a difference. If they're not going to really compete next year... then why not grab Vuc for multi years and let him get a free gelling year with Trae, Collins and the other players.

Just was another team with Cap Space that is looking to take another step towards playoffs who already has a PG of the future, PF and intriguing pieces. C and Wing would seem like the logical next steps to improve that roster. Atlanta could absolutely draft a Hayes from Texas and if they do then Vuc is off the list for sure.

Considering that they already have a high scoring big and they have some defensive liabilities, I think it would be better to have a defensive center, Vuc has improved in this department, but he is not a specialist (and never will be).

If 2020 FA class is bad, it would be wiser to draft a defensive center and sign a wing with their cap space THIS year.

C: Lee / Plumlee / Defensive big (#8)
PF: Collins / Defensive big (#8)
SF: FA wing (up to 35M/year) / another wing (#10)
SG: Huerter / Carter
PG: Trae / veteran PG

Depending on the signed wing, that's a playoff team to me. We are lucky that they didn't got any Top 3 pick this year. Imagine if they had Zion or Barrett :o
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#183 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Fri May 17, 2019 2:59 pm

MoMM wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
MoMM wrote:They already have Len and Plumlee signed for next season (17M) and I believe that they might draft another center with one of their Top 10 picks, that's way cheaper and they are not in win-mode, so it makes sense for them, IMO. They could just play their cards this season and save money for 2020 offseason when Len, Plumlee and Kent will expire (36M).


2020 offseason doesn't really have a ton of good options in terms of FA that could make a difference. If they're not going to really compete next year... then why not grab Vuc for multi years and let him get a free gelling year with Trae, Collins and the other players.

Just was another team with Cap Space that is looking to take another step towards playoffs who already has a PG of the future, PF and intriguing pieces. C and Wing would seem like the logical next steps to improve that roster. Atlanta could absolutely draft a Hayes from Texas and if they do then Vuc is off the list for sure.

Considering that they already have a high scoring big and they have some defensive liabilities, I think it would be better to have a defensive center, Vuc has improved in this department, but he is not a specialist (and never will be).

If 2020 FA class is bad, it would be wiser to draft a defensive center and sign a wing with their cap space THIS year.

C: Lee / Plumlee / Defensive big (#8)
PF: Collins / Defensive big (#8)
SF: FA wing (up to 35M/year) / another wing (#10)
SG: Huerter / Carter
PG: Trae / veteran PG

Depending on the signed wing, that's a playoff team to me. We are lucky that they didn't got any Top 3 pick this year. Imagine if they had Zion or Barrett :o



I mean they're still in a damn good spot. They could have Reddish and Hayes which would pretty much complete that roster for years.. I could really see Atlanta going HARD after Middleton in FA. That would make Atlanta a 7th 8th seed challenger for sure.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#184 » by ezzzp » Fri May 17, 2019 5:29 pm

MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
MoMM wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
2020 offseason doesn't really have a ton of good options in terms of FA that could make a difference. If they're not going to really compete next year... then why not grab Vuc for multi years and let him get a free gelling year with Trae, Collins and the other players.

Just was another team with Cap Space that is looking to take another step towards playoffs who already has a PG of the future, PF and intriguing pieces. C and Wing would seem like the logical next steps to improve that roster. Atlanta could absolutely draft a Hayes from Texas and if they do then Vuc is off the list for sure.

Considering that they already have a high scoring big and they have some defensive liabilities, I think it would be better to have a defensive center, Vuc has improved in this department, but he is not a specialist (and never will be).

If 2020 FA class is bad, it would be wiser to draft a defensive center and sign a wing with their cap space THIS year.

C: Lee / Plumlee / Defensive big (#8)
PF: Collins / Defensive big (#8)
SF: FA wing (up to 35M/year) / another wing (#10)
SG: Huerter / Carter
PG: Trae / veteran PG

Depending on the signed wing, that's a playoff team to me. We are lucky that they didn't got any Top 3 pick this year. Imagine if they had Zion or Barrett :o



I mean they're still in a damn good spot. They could have Reddish and Hayes which would pretty much complete that roster for years.. I could really see Atlanta going HARD after Middleton in FA. That would make Atlanta a 7th 8th seed challenger for sure.


I seriously doubt Middelton signs to a very young team in the early stages of a rebuild. He'd be risking his prime waiting for "potential," that has more likelihood to never realize, much less be championship caliber core. Right now he's the 2nd option on a championship contender, it would take a full $35m max offer just to take the phone call. Even then Bucks will probably pay him anyhow to keep that group together because they can't risk being cheap with Giannis a free agent in 2 summers and the team clearly a contender.

"The Process" tandem of Simmons/Embiid whiffed on free agents, and they had more than a max slot + are one of the biggest markets in all US sports.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#185 » by drsd » Sat May 18, 2019 10:23 am

The mean in this poll came to 23.4M a year. This could look something like:
1: 29.5M
2: 26.2M
3: 23.6M
4: 19M
5: 19M

This would be an average top-out for the fan's poll.

..
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#186 » by Catledge » Sat May 18, 2019 3:15 pm

drsd wrote:The mean in this poll came to 23.4M a year. This could look something like:
1: 29.5M
2: 26.2M
3: 23.6M
4: 19M
5: 19M

This would be an average top-out for the fan's poll.

..


I could live with this. I know this isn't a popular opinion, but that contract would mean that he is down to 16%-18% of the cap during the last couple of years of his deal.

I think, though, that the number could come down a little more than that if we offer 5 years.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#187 » by p0peye » Sat May 18, 2019 3:45 pm

drsd wrote:The mean in this poll came to 23.4M a year. This could look something like:
1: 29.5M
2: 26.2M
3: 23.6M
4: 19M
5: 19M

This would be an average top-out for the fan's poll.

..


Nothing about Weltham so far suggest they are foolish enough to offer 5th year to any player on current Orlando roster.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#188 » by NotACat » Sat May 18, 2019 4:57 pm

drsd wrote:The mean in this poll came to 23.4M a year. This could look something like:
1: 29.5M
2: 26.2M
3: 23.6M
4: 19M
5: 19M

This would be an average top-out for the fan's poll.

..

I think $24M breaking point means not a single year over that number, and absolutely not at 5 years
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#189 » by ezzzp » Sat May 18, 2019 11:22 pm

drsd wrote:The mean in this poll came to 23.4M a year. This could look something like:
1: 29.5M
2: 26.2M
3: 23.6M
4: 19M
5: 19M

This would be an average top-out for the fan's poll.

..


5th year's are very rare. In the unlikely event that the FO gives him that extra year, it would only be as negotiation tool to get a way lower annual amount.

4 year at average of $23.4m per = $93.6m

If its a descending contract then this is what it would look like:

(1) $26.6m
(2) $24.5m
(3) $22.3m
(4) $20.2m
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#190 » by drsd » Sat May 18, 2019 11:46 pm

ezzzp wrote:If its a descending contract then this is what it would look like:

(1) $26.6m
(2) $24.5m
(3) $22.3m
(4) $20.2m


Fine, but: this is not a contract that in my opinion leads to Vučević being a Magician next year. It just aint.


..
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#191 » by BadMofoPimp » Sun May 19, 2019 1:23 am

drsd wrote:
ezzzp wrote:If its a descending contract then this is what it would look like:

(1) $26.6m
(2) $24.5m
(3) $22.3m
(4) $20.2m


Fine, but: this is not a contract that in my opinion leads to Vučević being a Magician next year. It just aint.


..


I wouldn't be surprised if it is!
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#192 » by ezzzp » Sun May 19, 2019 5:08 am

drsd wrote:
ezzzp wrote:If its a descending contract then this is what it would look like:

(1) $26.6m
(2) $24.5m
(3) $22.3m
(4) $20.2m


Fine, but: this is not a contract that in my opinion leads to Vučević being a Magician next year. It just aint.


..



who’s going to pay him more? these are only teams with cap space to pay more:

1. NYK - $73.2M - M Robinson
2. LAC - $52.9M - Zubac (rfa) / M Harrell
3. IND - $44.0M - M Turner / D Sabonis
4. ATL - $42.9M - A Len (rfa) / Plumlee
5. SAC - $38.4M - W Cauley-Stein (rfa) / H Gilles
6. UTA - $33.4M - Rudy Gobert / D Favors
7. LAL - $32.5M - F Vogel is coach
8. BKN - $30.3M - J Allen / E Davis (Bird Rights)
9. DAL - $29.3M - Porzingis / D Powell
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#193 » by Bensational » Sun May 19, 2019 7:07 am

ezzzp wrote:
drsd wrote:
ezzzp wrote:If its a descending contract then this is what it would look like:

(1) $26.6m
(2) $24.5m
(3) $22.3m
(4) $20.2m


Fine, but: this is not a contract that in my opinion leads to Vučević being a Magician next year. It just aint.


..



who’s going to pay him more? these are only teams with cap space to pay more:

1. NYK - $73.2M - M Robinson
2. LAC - $52.9M - Zubac (rfa) / M Harrell
3. IND - $44.0M - M Turner / D Sabonis
4. ATL - $42.9M - A Len (rfa) / Plumlee
5. SAC - $38.4M - W Cauley-Stein (rfa) / H Gilles
6. UTA - $33.4M - Rudy Gobert / D Favors
7. LAL - $32.5M - F Vogel is coach
8. BKN - $30.3M - J Allen / E Davis (Bird Rights)
9. DAL - $29.3M - Porzingis / D Powell


But if Vuc is a top 15 player, as you've said, wouldn't all those teams value him as such and pay him like a top 15 player would be paid? Or at least, wouldn't they value him over the likes of Zubac, Turner, Len, WCS, etc?

Also, the offseason could see some shake ups which create an opening, or more appealing opening if the money is the same.

Ie, say Indiana trade Turner + assets for JRue, if they strike out on signing a FA, and then Vuc has the opportunity to team up with Oladipo + Holiday + Sabonis?

Or, if NY sign Durant and can convince another top tier FA to split the remaining cap space with another top 3 option. Vuc could have the opportunity to team up with Durant + Barrett + FA.

Atlanta have cap space and too much youth. They, too, could consider consolidating youth for a quality veteran through trade, and throw big money at Vuc to be a top 2 option for them.

The Clips will need another piece of talent to join Kawhi and help sell him on how competitive they can be.

Sacramento's biggest missing piece is a C.

Dallas need backcourt more than they need another big man. But, they might value Vuc's ability to space the floor to keep the paint open for Luka and Porzingis. It's paying off for Milwaukee right now.

So there's definitely room for most of those teams to find a sudden need and lack of FA options where Vuc might command some big coin and be lured away. Unless, he's not as in demand and not at cost that's being anticipated?
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#194 » by pepe1991 » Sun May 19, 2019 9:06 am

I don't think Vučević will get any offer better than 4 years $90-100M a year and that offer will be from Magic.

That's what teams do that want to keep their players, they pay him what both sides belive is fair value.

Same thing Weltman did to Gordon. Nobody else offered anything ,yet he payed him respecful contract that is around his league's value.

Knicks could offer Vučević more ,but teams like Jazz and Pacers could be removed from list. And i assume Vučević would have zero desire to go back to Vogel and handle that clown team in general with little baby at home and all crap that is going around Lakers.

Hawks, Kings and Nets don't fit style of play for him. They just run like a fools for sake of playing fast and trading points.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#195 » by ezzzp » Sun May 19, 2019 6:24 pm

Bensational wrote:But if Vuc is a top 15 player, as you've said, wouldn't all those teams value him as such and pay him like a top 15 player would be paid? Or at least, wouldn't they value him over the likes of Zubac, Turner, Len, WCS, etc?

Also, the offseason could see some shake ups which create an opening, or more appealing opening if the money is the same.

Ie, say Indiana trade Turner + assets for JRue, if they strike out on signing a FA, and then Vuc has the opportunity to team up with Oladipo + Holiday + Sabonis?

Or, if NY sign Durant and can convince another top tier FA to split the remaining cap space with another top 3 option. Vuc could have the opportunity to team up with Durant + Barrett + FA.

Atlanta have cap space and too much youth. They, too, could consider consolidating youth for a quality veteran through trade, and throw big money at Vuc to be a top 2 option for them.

The Clips will need another piece of talent to join Kawhi and help sell him on how competitive they can be.

Sacramento's biggest missing piece is a C.

Dallas need backcourt more than they need another big man. But, they might value Vuc's ability to space the floor to keep the paint open for Luka and Porzingis. It's paying off for Milwaukee right now.


Actually, someone else said that...what I said was that Vucevic was top 10 in most advanced metrics this season...and that is a fact, he was.

That's something that YOU also have actually said when you were trying to make the argument that Vucevic never got double teamed this season...your words: "Vuc may have had a top 15 season by the numbers, but that wasn't reflected in him being defended like a top 15 player"


Vucevic has some say in who he signs with. He is an unrestricted free agent.

• ATLANTA:

Why in the world would he want to go play for the Hawks? Atlanta is small (and notoriously dead) market, the roster is super young and at the very beginning of their rebuild. They are years away from anything...and that's if "potential" realizes, which it doesn't way more often than not. Maybe he wants to relive the good ole' early days of Orlando's rebuild.

You are saying the Atlanta rebuild has too much youth...but in Orlando you've said that Vucevic's age and next contract aren't compatible with their timeline.

Why would Atlanta throw a big contract at Vucevic at beginning of their rebuild? Especially when they already are paying Plumlee $13m next year + have RFA Alex Len coming off of promising year. What youth are they consolidating to get a quality veteran? The literally gave Jeremy Lin away for free, have Bird Rights on Dedmon, and Bazemore is there for another season.


• INDIANA:

Indiana has Sabonis (locked in for 2 yrs at rookie scale), arguably a starting quality C playing back up minutes behind Myles Turner, whom they just handed a 4 year $72m extension to.

Why does Indiana trade for Holiday, Jrue needs the ball in his hands to be effective, just like Oladipo. He is really a SG that can play some PG, but not really - hence why NOLA has been desperate to find PG for years (aka Payton, Rondo etc).

• SACRAMENTO:

WCS was arguably Sacramento's 3d most important player last season. They have RFA rights on him, PLUS they just got back Harry Gilles, their 2017 1st round pick center who missed entire rookie season prior year. PLUS they went small a lot with Barnes/Bagley Jr, and now they are coached by Walton who also loves to use small lineups.

• LA CLIPPERS:

Clippers are the only team, as I have stated in past, that I see as a legitimate threat with need, cap space and coach that loves Vucevic and plays in style that matches him + he has ties to the city.

• NEW YORK:

So NY is going to lure Durant without signing another top tier player to play with roster mostly composed of under 22 year olds?

You keep saying how Vucevic (and C's) are worthless in NBA yet somehow Vucevic is the reason Durant signs on to that situation in NY?

Also, Durant's max eats up $38.1m; leaving them 35.1m in cap room with 6 roster spots filled (draft pick, Knox, DSJr, Ntlikina and Robinson...all under 22). The rest are rfa or team options...all would need to be renounced to reach that $35.1m in cap room (aka lose Bird/RFA rights and thus can't resign them over salary cap).

• DALLAS

So Vucevic is a good at opening up space for Dallas' young core but somehow that spacing isn't valuable to Orlando? Sn your prior arguments against Vucevic in Orlando you devalued his spacing.

Everyone knows KP needs to play C...plus they have Powell already and Carlyle has always preferred low USG defensive center.

Bensational wrote:So there's definitely room for most of those teams to find a sudden need and lack of FA options where Vuc might command some big coin and be lured away. Unless, he's not as in demand and not at cost that's being anticipated?


There are maybe 1-2 teams with existing cap space and need...and all the "what if" scenarios are pretty big stretches.

You've been saying how the C position isn't valuable anymore...but somehow on this side of the equation its suddenly very valuable. Which one is it?
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#196 » by Bensational » Sun May 19, 2019 10:45 pm

ezzzp wrote:Actually, someone else said that...what I said was that Vucevic was top 10 in most advanced metrics this season...and that is a fact, he was.


I'm just saying, that despite the fact he performed so well by advanced metrics, he's not actually close to being a top 10 or 15 player. If he were, there would be a clear number for what teams would be willing to pay him in free agency. Durant is a top 5 player, and we all know he's getting the max. If Jokic or Embiid were UFAs this offseason, we'd all know they'd be getting the max. And we know any team that felt they had a chance at them would offer them that money, if they had it. But with Vuc, you're even trying to make that case that his deal might fall between $20-25M, because he won't have the many suitors. If he's as good and valuable as the numbers present, it shouldn't be a question of whether teams would want him, should it?


• ATLANTA:

Why in the world would he want to go play for the Hawks? Atlanta is small (and notoriously dead) market, the roster is super young and at the very beginning of their rebuild. They are years away from anything...and that's if "potential" realizes, which it doesn't way more often than not. Maybe he wants to relive the good ole' early days of Orlando's rebuild.

You are saying the Atlanta rebuild has too much youth...but in Orlando you've said that Vucevic's age and next contract aren't compatible with their timeline.

Why would Atlanta throw a big contract at Vucevic at beginning of their rebuild? Especially when they already are paying Plumlee $13m next year + have RFA Alex Len coming off of promising year. What youth are they consolidating to get a quality veteran? The literally gave Jeremy Lin away for free, have Bird Rights on Dedmon, and Bazemore is there for another season.


You could apply a lot of that critique to Orlando. We're very much at the beginning of our rebuild, too. Other than Vuc, Fournier and Gordon, the rest of our prospects, and what Weltman has constantly referred to as the future, are as young as at Atlanta's team. But, one of those prospects is clearly their offensive anchor and franchise face, which is something we don't have. If they can add one other decent veteran, they'll be in the same shape as us as far as being competitive but not true contenders - but they'd have pieces that you know they're hoping will carry you to contention. We don't.

Why is Alex Len so valuable? He'll obviously command a much lesser salary than Vuc in free agency. Should we try to get him instead of Vuc, and save a good chunk of money, since you consider him good enough for Atlanta to pass up on signing Vuc?


• INDIANA:

Indiana has Sabonis (locked in for 2 yrs at rookie scale), arguably a starting quality C playing back up minutes behind Myles Turner, whom they just handed a 4 year $72m extension to.
Spoiler:
Why does Indiana trade for Holiday, Jrue needs the ball in his hands to be effective, just like Oladipo. He is really a SG that can play some PG, but not really - hence why NOLA has been desperate to find PG for years (aka Payton, Rondo etc).

• SACRAMENTO:

WCS was arguably Sacramento's 3d most important player last season. They have RFA rights on him, PLUS they just got back Harry Gilles, their 2017 1st round pick center who missed entire rookie season prior year. PLUS they went small a lot with Barnes/Bagley Jr, and now they are coached by Walton who also loves to use small lineups.

• LA CLIPPERS:

Clippers are the only team, as I have stated in past, that I see as a legitimate threat with need, cap space and coach that loves Vucevic and plays in style that matches him + he has ties to the city.

• NEW YORK:

So NY is going to lure Durant without signing another top tier player to play with roster mostly composed of under 22 year olds?

You keep saying how Vucevic (and C's) are worthless in NBA yet somehow Vucevic is the reason Durant signs on to that situation in NY?

Spoiler:
Also, Durant's max eats up $38.1m; leaving them 35.1m in cap room with 6 roster spots filled (draft pick, Knox, DSJr, Ntlikina and Robinson...all under 22). The rest are rfa or team options...all would need to be renounced to reach that $35.1m in cap room (aka lose Bird/RFA rights and thus can't resign them over salary cap).

• DALLAS

So Vucevic is a good at opening up space for Dallas' young core but somehow that spacing isn't valuable to Orlando? Sn your prior arguments against Vucevic in Orlando you devalued his spacing.

Everyone knows KP needs to play C...plus they have Powell already and Carlyle has always preferred low USG defensive center.

Bensational wrote:So there's definitely room for most of those teams to find a sudden need and lack of FA options where Vuc might command some big coin and be lured away. Unless, he's not as in demand and not at cost that's being anticipated?


There are maybe 1-2 teams with existing cap space and need...and all the "what if" scenarios are pretty big stretches.

You've been saying how the C position isn't valuable anymore...but somehow on this side of the equation its suddenly very valuable. Which one is it?


So whilst you've been trying to paint Vuc as being so vital to our success and worth significant money, you're now making the case that Len, Turner, WCS, Powell, etc are all good enough to give a team pause not to consider signing Vuc. Yet, we should pay Vuc significantly more than any of them. Why? Why not just sign one of these cheaper options?

I've been saying the C option is a final piece addition. Most of these teams have their franchise player, or have the flexibility and good likelihood that they can add one, as well as having secondary stars in place, too. The young teams might just want a capable stop-gap option to keep them competitive - same as us. I'm sure all those teams would prefer to add many other players instead, but if this is their only window to add talent, and they strike out, they might be inclined to throw a big offer at Vuc to secure that.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#197 » by ezzzp » Mon May 20, 2019 9:59 am

Bensational wrote:
1 I'm just saying, that despite the fact he performed so well by advanced metrics, he's not actually close to being a top 10 or 15 player.

2 If he were, there would be a clear number for what teams would be willing to pay him in free agency.

3 Durant is a top 5 player, and we all know he's getting the max. If Jokic or Embiid were UFAs this offseason, we'd all know they'd be getting the max. And we know any team that felt they had a chance at them would offer them that money, if they had it.

4 But with Vuc, you're even trying to make that case that his deal might fall between $20-25M, because he won't have the many suitors. If he's as good and valuable as the numbers present, it shouldn't be a question of whether teams would want him, should it?

5 You could apply a lot of that critique to Orlando. We're very much at the beginning of our rebuild, too.

6 Other than Vuc, Fournier and Gordon, the rest of our prospects, and what Weltman has constantly referred to as the future, are as young as at Atlanta's team. But, one of those prospects is clearly their offensive anchor and franchise face, which is something we don't have. If they can add one other decent veteran, they'll be in the same shape as us as far as being competitive but not true contenders - but they'd have pieces that you know they're hoping will carry you to contention. We don't.

7 Why is Alex Len so valuable? He'll obviously command a much lesser salary than Vuc in free agency. Should we try to get him instead of Vuc, and save a good chunk of money, since you consider him good enough for Atlanta to pass up on signing Vuc?

8 So whilst you've been trying to paint Vuc as being so vital to our success and worth significant money, you're now making the case that Len, Turner, WCS, Powell, etc are all good enough to give a team pause not to consider signing Vuc. Yet, we should pay Vuc significantly more than any of them. Why? Why not just sign one of these cheaper options?

9 I've been saying the C option is a final piece addition. Most of these teams have their franchise player, or have the flexibility and good likelihood that they can add one, as well as having secondary stars in place, too. The young teams might just want a capable stop-gap option to keep them competitive - same as us. I'm sure all those teams would prefer to add many other players instead, but if this is their only window to add talent, and they strike out, they might be inclined to throw a big offer at Vuc to secure that.




1 I'm just saying that despite your clear anti-Vucevic bias you still can't deny that he was top 10 in nearly every single advanced statistical metric for 2018-19. PER, VORP, RPM, BPM, WS....etc. That is a fact.

2 You literally just pointed out numerous teams with +$29m in cap space that would pay Vucevic. You literally said that Atlanta a team in tank mode would throw huge money at him. :lol: Make up your mind.

3 And?! That has nothing to do with wether or not Vucevic ranked in top 10 in pretty much every single advance metric in the NBA in 2018-19. Which is what my comment was.

4 You are the one that keeps saying he's got all these teams that will pay him - its on this very exchange - go read your own words. I've already stated what I think his price range is and have maintained that he's not getting the kind of $ that you keep complaining about. I just showed you the teams with that type of cap space and their roster context which makes it unlikely. If you want to trick yourself into believing those teams fit your narrative knock yourself out.

5 The Magic are NOT in the beginning of the rebuild...they clearly made a playoff push and kept Vucevic and Ross to do that. The FO chose to not trade Vucevic and Ross last summer or at trade deadline. In addition, they chose to hire a coach that would play to win. That is not a team in "early stages of rebuild"

6 Actually the FO stated that resigning Vucevic was a priority. They just handed Gordon a 4 year contract (24-28) and Fournier is 26 and locked in for two more season. And unless Fultz has some miracle comeback, its pretty safe to assume he'll be backing up DJ. So NO the Magic aren't in the same situation as Atlanta. Orlando is literally 8 years from the day they started their rebuild and gifting minutes to young players is not what this FO has positioned Clifford to do.

...and Atlanta does not have the pieces for contention - that is laughable. You are confusing hype highlight videos with actual W's.

7 Why is retaining a solid young asset, that they have invested in, valuable to Atlanta - a team in rebuild? Seriously?

Len is cheaper than Vucevic for a reason. One is a young player who had a promising season. The other was top 10 in most advanced stats and selected by NBA coaches as All-Star and carried his team to playoffs. Vucevic is a proven player and vastly superior to Len, hence why he costs more.

Vucevic has more value to the Magic organization short and long term. He is key to winning context and player development. Cap space does not replace that, nor does Len.

8 wow...that's some serious spin.

First of all, it is you who keep insisting that Vucevic will get paid significant money. Most think he'll get a fair contract; the polls on T&T forum and this forum arrived at $20-$24m range. Its just you and handful of Vucevic haters that keep trying to spin that he'll get outlandish amount (read your words on this thread for proof).

Second, context is why I said those teams won't pursue Vucevic or offer him the type of money that you are desperately trying to make others believe he'll get. NOT because I'm saying their bigs are better than Vucevic.

Indiana just gave Turner a brand new 4 year extension + have Sabonis.

Atlanta is in 2nd year of ground up rebuild. Vucevic has no reason to answer their call. They have no reason to call Vucevic. Regardless of how much you, Skin and MagicMatic keep and1 each other. Did you notice the silence when you guys proposed it on T&T forum :lol:

I said Powell is back up C under contract - I also listed guaranteed $/rotation bigs on other examples...but it is funny how you chose to not mention Porzingis and instead cherry picked this particular back up to suit your spin.

WCS is a RFA and he was key player in SAC this year. Plus they have Gilles and play small a lot and now have Walton likes to play like that even more.

9 The C position is constantly in flux depending on talent at it. The wave of great guards is aging and most are in peak decline...the next wave of impactful young players is crowded with versatile forwards and bigs. Your idea is based on what occurred past decade.

Its also a little premature to call Trae Young a franchise player. Plus if they are building around him and Collins, then your theory falls apart because they'll need to hide their two core players on the defensive end were they are two of worst defenders in NBA...and their bodies don't look like that will be changing anytime soon. That means a defensive specialist center.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#198 » by Bensational » Mon May 20, 2019 12:06 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Bensational wrote:
1 I'm just saying, that despite the fact he performed so well by advanced metrics, he's not actually close to being a top 10 or 15 player.

2 If he were, there would be a clear number for what teams would be willing to pay him in free agency.

3 Durant is a top 5 player, and we all know he's getting the max. If Jokic or Embiid were UFAs this offseason, we'd all know they'd be getting the max. And we know any team that felt they had a chance at them would offer them that money, if they had it.

4 But with Vuc, you're even trying to make that case that his deal might fall between $20-25M, because he won't have the many suitors. If he's as good and valuable as the numbers present, it shouldn't be a question of whether teams would want him, should it?

5 You could apply a lot of that critique to Orlando. We're very much at the beginning of our rebuild, too.

6 Other than Vuc, Fournier and Gordon, the rest of our prospects, and what Weltman has constantly referred to as the future, are as young as at Atlanta's team. But, one of those prospects is clearly their offensive anchor and franchise face, which is something we don't have. If they can add one other decent veteran, they'll be in the same shape as us as far as being competitive but not true contenders - but they'd have pieces that you know they're hoping will carry you to contention. We don't.

7 Why is Alex Len so valuable? He'll obviously command a much lesser salary than Vuc in free agency. Should we try to get him instead of Vuc, and save a good chunk of money, since you consider him good enough for Atlanta to pass up on signing Vuc?

8 So whilst you've been trying to paint Vuc as being so vital to our success and worth significant money, you're now making the case that Len, Turner, WCS, Powell, etc are all good enough to give a team pause not to consider signing Vuc. Yet, we should pay Vuc significantly more than any of them. Why? Why not just sign one of these cheaper options?

9 I've been saying the C option is a final piece addition. Most of these teams have their franchise player, or have the flexibility and good likelihood that they can add one, as well as having secondary stars in place, too. The young teams might just want a capable stop-gap option to keep them competitive - same as us. I'm sure all those teams would prefer to add many other players instead, but if this is their only window to add talent, and they strike out, they might be inclined to throw a big offer at Vuc to secure that.




1 I'm just saying that despite your clear anti-Vucevic bias you still can't deny that he was top 10 in nearly every single advanced statistical metric for 2018-19. PER, VORP, RPM, BPM, WS....etc. That is a fact.

2 You literally just pointed out numerous teams with +$29m in cap space that would pay Vucevic. You literally said that Atlanta a team in tank mode would throw huge money at him. :lol: Make up your mind.

3 And?! That has nothing to do with wether or not Vucevic ranked in top 10 in pretty much every single advance metric in the NBA in 2018-19. Which is what my comment was.

4 You are the one that keeps saying he's got all these teams that will pay him - its on this very exchange - go read your own words. I've already stated what I think his price range is and have maintained that he's not getting the kind of $ that you keep complaining about. I just showed you the teams with that type of cap space and their roster context which makes it unlikely. If you want to trick yourself into believing those teams fit your narrative knock yourself out.

5 The Magic are NOT in the beginning of the rebuild...they clearly made a playoff push and kept Vucevic and Ross to do that. The FO chose to not trade Vucevic and Ross last summer or at trade deadline. In addition, they chose to hire a coach that would play to win. That is not a team in "early stages of rebuild"

6 Actually the FO stated that resigning Vucevic was a priority. They just handed Gordon a 4 year contract (24-28) and Fournier is 26 and locked in for two more season. And unless Fultz has some miracle comeback, its pretty safe to assume he'll be backing up DJ. So NO the Magic aren't in the same situation as Atlanta. Orlando is literally 8 years from the day they started their rebuild and gifting minutes to young players is not what this FO has positioned Clifford to do.

...and Atlanta does not have the pieces for contention - that is laughable. You are confusing hype highlight videos with actual W's.

7 Why is retaining a solid young asset, that they have invested in, valuable to Atlanta - a team in rebuild? Seriously?

Len is cheaper than Vucevic for a reason. One is a young player who had a promising season. The other was top 10 in most advanced stats and selected by NBA coaches as All-Star and carried his team to playoffs. Vucevic is a proven player and vastly superior to Len, hence why he costs more.

Vucevic has more value to the Magic organization short and long term. He is key to winning context and player development. Cap space does not replace that, nor does Len.

8 wow...that's some serious spin.

First of all, it is you who keep insisting that Vucevic will get paid significant money. Most think he'll get a fair contract; the polls on T&T forum and this forum arrived at $20-$24m range. Its just you and handful of Vucevic haters that keep trying to spin that he'll get outlandish amount (read your words on this thread for proof).

Second, context is why I said those teams won't pursue Vucevic or offer him the type of money that you are desperately trying to make others believe he'll get. NOT because I'm saying their bigs are better than Vucevic.

Indiana just gave Turner a brand new 4 year extension + have Sabonis.

Atlanta is in 2nd year of ground up rebuild. Vucevic has no reason to answer their call. They have no reason to call Vucevic. Regardless of how much you, Skin and MagicMatic keep and1 each other. Did you notice the silence when you guys proposed it on T&T forum :lol:

I said Powell is back up C under contract - I also listed guaranteed $/rotation bigs on other examples...but it is funny how you chose to not mention Porzingis and instead cherry picked this particular back up to suit your spin.

WCS is a RFA and he was key player in SAC this year. Plus they have Gilles and play small a lot and now have Walton likes to play like that even more.

9 The C position is constantly in flux depending on talent at it. The wave of great guards is aging and most are in peak decline...the next wave of impactful young players is crowded with versatile forwards and bigs. Your idea is based on what occurred past decade.

Its also a little premature to call Trae Young a franchise player. Plus if they are building around him and Collins, then your theory falls apart because they'll need to hide their two core players on the defensive end were they are two of worst defenders in NBA...and their bodies don't look like that will be changing anytime soon. That means a defensive specialist center.


Here's your original comment:

ezzzp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
By advanced statistical measures, Vucevic was top 10 this season:

9th in PER
8th in RPM
7th in PIE
9th in VORP
8th in BPM
10th in WS


PER- Rudy Gobert 10, Capella 14
VORP - Gobert 4, Blake 14,
WS - Dwight Powell 8, Capella 5, Sabonis 15
BPM- Gobert 6, Nurkic 14

Stats are stats. But i dont consider any of Nurkic, Gobert, Powell, Capella, Sabonis top-15 players.


None of those guys are in top 10 of ALL those stats, none of them were made All-Star by NBA coaches (not popular vote). The statistical evidence is there and the professional expert assessment is as well...if you choose to ignore that its up to you.


So, you're quite clearly asserting that he's a top 10 player, based off the rankings of those stats and a popularity vote. Yet, now you're adamant that there won't be a high demand for one of the league's top 10 players. Are you admitting that despite the facts you originally listed as proof of Vuc being a top 10 player, that he may not actually be regarded as a top 10 player?

That's my point. If he's as good as you have been portraying him, he will be valued as such. And that will result in a large offer from someone, surely. So you've either misrepresented how good he is, or you're undervaluing the guy you've gone to efforts to big up. Which is it?

The T&T board doesn't value him at $20-24M. 11 people voted $15-17M. 14 voted $17-19. 25 voted $20-22M. 11 voted $22-24M. That's not top 10 money they're talking about there.

So, if we can agree that Vuc isn't likely to be considered or treated like a top 10 player, because he's not, then we discuss money. What's the fair offer we're prepared to make? Who knows. Likely in that $20-22M range. Then it becomes a matter of how might he be offered more. Simply, by a team with more to offer who has failed to land a better player. Presuming that rosters won't change and teams couldn't find themselves in a position where they need a C, and have the money to offer Vuc a spot is a very limited projection.

Even if teams don't have the apparent required context for Vuc, I think we all know GMs can make some panic offers when they're presented with the opportunity to add talent, even if it doesn't fit all that well. Vuc is certainly good enough to make some teams consider it. He may not be top 10, but he's certainly somewhere in the top 50.

But if we find ourselves in a position where no other team values him that highly, then we really should be considering whether or not we should value him that highly and sink our limited capital into that asset.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#199 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Mon May 20, 2019 1:44 pm

Bensational wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Bensational wrote:
1 I'm just saying, that despite the fact he performed so well by advanced metrics, he's not actually close to being a top 10 or 15 player.

2 If he were, there would be a clear number for what teams would be willing to pay him in free agency.

3 Durant is a top 5 player, and we all know he's getting the max. If Jokic or Embiid were UFAs this offseason, we'd all know they'd be getting the max. And we know any team that felt they had a chance at them would offer them that money, if they had it.

4 But with Vuc, you're even trying to make that case that his deal might fall between $20-25M, because he won't have the many suitors. If he's as good and valuable as the numbers present, it shouldn't be a question of whether teams would want him, should it?

5 You could apply a lot of that critique to Orlando. We're very much at the beginning of our rebuild, too.

6 Other than Vuc, Fournier and Gordon, the rest of our prospects, and what Weltman has constantly referred to as the future, are as young as at Atlanta's team. But, one of those prospects is clearly their offensive anchor and franchise face, which is something we don't have. If they can add one other decent veteran, they'll be in the same shape as us as far as being competitive but not true contenders - but they'd have pieces that you know they're hoping will carry you to contention. We don't.

7 Why is Alex Len so valuable? He'll obviously command a much lesser salary than Vuc in free agency. Should we try to get him instead of Vuc, and save a good chunk of money, since you consider him good enough for Atlanta to pass up on signing Vuc?

8 So whilst you've been trying to paint Vuc as being so vital to our success and worth significant money, you're now making the case that Len, Turner, WCS, Powell, etc are all good enough to give a team pause not to consider signing Vuc. Yet, we should pay Vuc significantly more than any of them. Why? Why not just sign one of these cheaper options?

9 I've been saying the C option is a final piece addition. Most of these teams have their franchise player, or have the flexibility and good likelihood that they can add one, as well as having secondary stars in place, too. The young teams might just want a capable stop-gap option to keep them competitive - same as us. I'm sure all those teams would prefer to add many other players instead, but if this is their only window to add talent, and they strike out, they might be inclined to throw a big offer at Vuc to secure that.




1 I'm just saying that despite your clear anti-Vucevic bias you still can't deny that he was top 10 in nearly every single advanced statistical metric for 2018-19. PER, VORP, RPM, BPM, WS....etc. That is a fact.

2 You literally just pointed out numerous teams with +$29m in cap space that would pay Vucevic. You literally said that Atlanta a team in tank mode would throw huge money at him. :lol: Make up your mind.

3 And?! That has nothing to do with wether or not Vucevic ranked in top 10 in pretty much every single advance metric in the NBA in 2018-19. Which is what my comment was.

4 You are the one that keeps saying he's got all these teams that will pay him - its on this very exchange - go read your own words. I've already stated what I think his price range is and have maintained that he's not getting the kind of $ that you keep complaining about. I just showed you the teams with that type of cap space and their roster context which makes it unlikely. If you want to trick yourself into believing those teams fit your narrative knock yourself out.

5 The Magic are NOT in the beginning of the rebuild...they clearly made a playoff push and kept Vucevic and Ross to do that. The FO chose to not trade Vucevic and Ross last summer or at trade deadline. In addition, they chose to hire a coach that would play to win. That is not a team in "early stages of rebuild"

6 Actually the FO stated that resigning Vucevic was a priority. They just handed Gordon a 4 year contract (24-28) and Fournier is 26 and locked in for two more season. And unless Fultz has some miracle comeback, its pretty safe to assume he'll be backing up DJ. So NO the Magic aren't in the same situation as Atlanta. Orlando is literally 8 years from the day they started their rebuild and gifting minutes to young players is not what this FO has positioned Clifford to do.

...and Atlanta does not have the pieces for contention - that is laughable. You are confusing hype highlight videos with actual W's.

7 Why is retaining a solid young asset, that they have invested in, valuable to Atlanta - a team in rebuild? Seriously?

Len is cheaper than Vucevic for a reason. One is a young player who had a promising season. The other was top 10 in most advanced stats and selected by NBA coaches as All-Star and carried his team to playoffs. Vucevic is a proven player and vastly superior to Len, hence why he costs more.

Vucevic has more value to the Magic organization short and long term. He is key to winning context and player development. Cap space does not replace that, nor does Len.

8 wow...that's some serious spin.

First of all, it is you who keep insisting that Vucevic will get paid significant money. Most think he'll get a fair contract; the polls on T&T forum and this forum arrived at $20-$24m range. Its just you and handful of Vucevic haters that keep trying to spin that he'll get outlandish amount (read your words on this thread for proof).

Second, context is why I said those teams won't pursue Vucevic or offer him the type of money that you are desperately trying to make others believe he'll get. NOT because I'm saying their bigs are better than Vucevic.

Indiana just gave Turner a brand new 4 year extension + have Sabonis.

Atlanta is in 2nd year of ground up rebuild. Vucevic has no reason to answer their call. They have no reason to call Vucevic. Regardless of how much you, Skin and MagicMatic keep and1 each other. Did you notice the silence when you guys proposed it on T&T forum :lol:

I said Powell is back up C under contract - I also listed guaranteed $/rotation bigs on other examples...but it is funny how you chose to not mention Porzingis and instead cherry picked this particular back up to suit your spin.

WCS is a RFA and he was key player in SAC this year. Plus they have Gilles and play small a lot and now have Walton likes to play like that even more.

9 The C position is constantly in flux depending on talent at it. The wave of great guards is aging and most are in peak decline...the next wave of impactful young players is crowded with versatile forwards and bigs. Your idea is based on what occurred past decade.

Its also a little premature to call Trae Young a franchise player. Plus if they are building around him and Collins, then your theory falls apart because they'll need to hide their two core players on the defensive end were they are two of worst defenders in NBA...and their bodies don't look like that will be changing anytime soon. That means a defensive specialist center.


Here's your original comment:

ezzzp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
PER- Rudy Gobert 10, Capella 14
VORP - Gobert 4, Blake 14,
WS - Dwight Powell 8, Capella 5, Sabonis 15
BPM- Gobert 6, Nurkic 14

Stats are stats. But i dont consider any of Nurkic, Gobert, Powell, Capella, Sabonis top-15 players.


None of those guys are in top 10 of ALL those stats, none of them were made All-Star by NBA coaches (not popular vote). The statistical evidence is there and the professional expert assessment is as well...if you choose to ignore that its up to you.


So, you're quite clearly asserting that he's a top 10 player, based off the rankings of those stats and a popularity vote. Yet, now you're adamant that there won't be a high demand for one of the league's top 10 players. Are you admitting that despite the facts you originally listed as proof of Vuc being a top 10 player, that he may not actually be regarded as a top 10 player?

That's my point. If he's as good as you have been portraying him, he will be valued as such. And that will result in a large offer from someone, surely. So you've either misrepresented how good he is, or you're undervaluing the guy you've gone to efforts to big up. Which is it?

The T&T board doesn't value him at $20-24M. 11 people voted $15-17M. 14 voted $17-19. 25 voted $20-22M. 11 voted $22-24M. That's not top 10 money they're talking about there.

So, if we can agree that Vuc isn't likely to be considered or treated like a top 10 player, because he's not, then we discuss money. What's the fair offer we're prepared to make? Who knows. Likely in that $20-22M range. Then it becomes a matter of how might he be offered more. Simply, by a team with more to offer who has failed to land a better player. Presuming that rosters won't change and teams couldn't find themselves in a position where they need a C, and have the money to offer Vuc a spot is a very limited projection.

Even if teams don't have the apparent required context for Vuc, I think we all know GMs can make some panic offers when they're presented with the opportunity to add talent, even if it doesn't fit all that well. Vuc is certainly good enough to make some teams consider it. He may not be top 10, but he's certainly somewhere in the top 50.

But if we find ourselves in a position where no other team values him that highly, then we really should be considering whether or not we should value him that highly and sink our limited capital into that asset.


BOOMMM That last paragraph is on point. Wouldn't be shocked if this FO is very tight lipped on what was/is offered to Vuc to try and control the narrative. I also wouldn't be shocked if they've already had these conversations and Vuc know what Orlando is willing to offer so that lets him go see what is out there.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#200 » by pepe1991 » Mon May 20, 2019 4:18 pm

I belive that Weltman and Vučević already had talk about lenght and $$ he will be offered.
I think most of teams do it, they would be idiots not to.
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