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Oladipo, Fournier, Tobias Harris, Domantas Sabonis, Vucevic

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Re: Oladipo, Fournier, Tobias Harris, Domantas Sabonis, Vucevic 

Post#21 » by drsd » Mon May 31, 2021 8:17 pm

uraverage wrote:To be fair, its not the amount or the number of years that made Aminu's contract terrible. Its that the Magic were making a push to be a playoff team and spent the little cap space left on the wrong player and then that player was injured compounded that misstep. IMO the worse contract for the magic is yet to be determined, it will be Fultz or JI, just not sure which one yet.


Grant Hill's contract will be hard to top.


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Re: Oladipo, Fournier, Tobias Harris, Domantas Sabonis, Vucevic 

Post#22 » by magicsanta » Mon May 31, 2021 8:46 pm

Knightro wrote:
magicsanta wrote:It seems to me that we’re much better at assessing talent than we’re at managing it


None of the five guys you mentioned were originally acquired by this current front office. Hell... three of the five were both acquired *and* traded away by the previous regime.


About this, I see your point but I meant organisationally. Historically we've been much better at picking up talent than we've been at getting the most out of it. Not that we've been elite at picking up talent, but after considering all the good players we've had and let go due to poor competitive conditions, failed rebuilding processes, etc...
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Re: Oladipo, Fournier, Tobias Harris, Domantas Sabonis, Vucevic 

Post#23 » by RookieStar » Mon May 31, 2021 9:42 pm

uraverage wrote:To be fair, its not the amount or the number of years that made Aminu's contract terrible. Its that the Magic were making a push to be a playoff team and spent the little cap space left on the wrong player and then that player was injured compounded that misstep. IMO the worse contract for the magic is yet to be determined, it will be Fultz or JI, just not sure which one yet.


As I was saying previously,if we signed Aminu, the player who produced in POR as their 3-4-5 man during their playoff runs, then it was a value signing never mind that we were stacked already at the 4 spot.

It's just that he sucked when he got there and had us believe it was his twin brother playing in POR the way he played for us.
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Re: Oladipo, Fournier, Tobias Harris, Domantas Sabonis, Vucevic 

Post#24 » by Skin » Tue Jun 1, 2021 4:26 am

Horcy wrote:
drsd wrote:
Skin wrote:5) Don't do stupid trades and sign role players to big contracts.
Self expalnatory.



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OMFG....dumbest signing ever :/

Forgot to add.

6. Don't keep in place a GM who is in the last year of his deal without an extension in place.
They don't care about future cap space.
Markelle Fultz, Jalen Green, Chuma Okeke, Jonathan Isaac, Wendell Carter Jr.
Cole Anthony, RJ Hampton, Corey Kispert, Mo Bamba. LET'S GO!
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Re: Oladipo, Fournier, Tobias Harris, Domantas Sabonis, Vucevic 

Post#25 » by pepe1991 » Tue Jun 1, 2021 7:08 am

Few thoughts.

For start, Fournier is having strong playoffs. Blaming him for not being able to guard James Harden or Durant 1 on 1 is laughable. Virtually nobody can guard them. That's why they are one of best to ever do it.


Aminu was what? 29, turning 45 when we signed him.
In last 7 playoffs games prior end of season where we signed him, he scored 27 points. Averaging amazing total of 3,8 ppg. His cumulative plus minus in that games was -39.
He had 2 good playoff games and everything else was disaster.

Domas Sabonis wasn't orlando Magic pick, despite Hennigan trying to change narrative. OKC told him what player to draft to execute Ibaka trade. Doesn't even count as Magic player.

Oladipo never did jack ***t for us. In his entire 8 years career, he had 1 great season. In hindsight long term, picking Evan over Oladipo was right decision. Evan was better player in 5 of last 6 years.

Harris is easly biggest f***y. Guy was overpay and knee jerk reaction that Hennigan followed by another knee jerk reaction when he got rid of him. Driving factor of trade was probably Gordon. Most people thought Gordon is superior prospect. He wasn't. Trade was disaster.

But biggest Magic fiasco are Biyombo & Bamba. Hands down.
Biyombo had 3 good playoff games that granted him $17M a year contract with Magic. Context: against Cavs, where he outplayed Tristan f*** Thompson who just went into Kardashianland.

Bamba. What to even say. After sucking with 25-57 record and watching Frank Vogel going bald and gray at once, after suffering to watch Jonathan Simmons , Elfrid Payton, Mario Hezonja, Mo Speights, Purvis,Adreian Payne & Rashard Vaughn we draft this tall talentless bum who didn't even want to do workout for us and cried in media to Dallas to draft him. On top of that ,we didn't even needed center. Just like we never needed Biyombo.
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
Date of writeup: March 26th, 2021.
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Re: Oladipo, Fournier, Tobias Harris, Domantas Sabonis, Vucevic 

Post#26 » by drsd » Tue Jun 1, 2021 8:50 am

pepe1991 wrote:Few thoughts.

For start, Fournier is having strong playoffs. Blaming him for not being able to guard James Harden or Durant 1 on 1 is laughable. Virtually nobody can guard them. That's why they are one of best to ever do it.


Aminu was what? 29, turning 45 when we signed him.
In last 7 playoffs games prior end of season where we signed him, he scored 27 points. Averaging amazing total of 3,8 ppg. His cumulative plus minus in that games was -39.
He had 2 good playoff games and everything else was disaster.

Domas Sabonis wasn't orlando Magic pick, despite Hennigan trying to change narrative. OKC told him what player to draft to execute Ibaka trade. Doesn't even count as Magic player.

Oladipo never did jack ***t for us. In his entire 8 years career, he had 1 great season. In hindsight long term, picking Evan over Oladipo was right decision. Evan was better player in 5 of last 6 years.

Harris is easly biggest f***y. Guy was overpay and knee jerk reaction that Hennigan followed by another knee jerk reaction when he got rid of him. Driving factor of trade was probably Gordon. Most people thought Gordon is superior prospect. He wasn't. Trade was disaster.

But biggest Magic fiasco are Biyombo & Bamba. Hands down.
Biyombo had 3 good playoff games that granted him $17M a year contract with Magic. Context: against Cavs, where he outplayed Tristan f*** Thompson who just went into Kardashianland.

Bamba. What to even say. After sucking with 25-57 record and watching Frank Vogel going bald and gray at once, after suffering to watch Jonathan Simmons , Elfrid Payton, Mario Hezonja, Mo Speights, Purvis,Adreian Payne & Rashard Vaughn we draft this tall talentless bum who didn't even want to do workout for us and cried in media to Dallas to draft him. On top of that ,we didn't even needed center. Just like we never needed Biyombo.



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1) Aminu was a horrible signing when he was signed (Orlando needs wing players not PFs), and on the court, it even looked worse. I cannot understand Magic fans that defend this signing.

2) Fournier was a very, very good SG for this team. His stat-lines fell a couple years as Orlando needed a SF, and he stepped up and played out of position. So: Fournier was also Loyal. And we need to remember that Oladipo was paid 21M a year and Fournier 17M a year. When Oladipo was traded, the contract size itself was the big issue for Management. .....

3) ... As was Harris'. There was no way Orlando was going to pay him 16M a year to be an out-of-position forward. And now he makes 32M a year. He tops out a 40M a year in 2023/24. Amazing. NBA GMs are crazy, in my opinion.

4) I agree with you on Biyombo. What I add to the insanity of his contract is that Orlando was already planning on investing in its long-term Center: Vučević. For a team to sign a player to be its highest-paid contract with the intention of said player being a backup big, WOW. NBA GMs are crazy, in my opinion.

5) Bamba: he has one last season and he either performs or the team moves on and takes the Bust-loss. But I am OK with that. The draft is about the gamble of upside. That gamble frequently fails. Fine. (What is not fine is over signing a FA that then does not perform).

5b) Trading for Carter could be as big of a mistake as drafting Bamba, in my opinion. Neither looks like a starting-quality Center to me.


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Re: Oladipo, Fournier, Tobias Harris, Domantas Sabonis, Vucevic 

Post#27 » by SOUL » Wed Jun 2, 2021 12:07 am

pepe1991 wrote:Few thoughts.

For start, Fournier is having strong playoffs. Blaming him for not being able to guard James Harden or Durant 1 on 1 is laughable. Virtually nobody can guard them. That's why they are one of best to ever do it.


"Strong" is a bit of an overstatement. He's averaging 13 ppg as arguably their 2nd most talented scorer with Kemba and Jaylen out. Shooting is fine, the rest meh.

Oladipo vs Fournier: Both could've co-existed, same with AG and Tobias. No reason anybody had to be moved other than to placate young egos, minutes were available if they weren't being used up for vets that retired a year or two after their Magic stint. It would be the equivalent of trading Cole or Hampton or Chuma right now to bring in some vets. For what reason? We may not keep all of our young guys by the time our team is good again, but to trade them for guys like Ibaka, Jennings, or Ilyasova is like trading our guys now for Bjelica or Schroder or something. Makes no sense when we know we are gonna be a bad team.

And we couldn't predict injury troubles with Oladipo which is the only reason why Fournier was the right person to keep. Oladipo as a two way player is better than Fournier when both are healthy but Oladipo is never healthy anymore which made Fournier the correct person to keep. Fournier played solid for us, underwhelming at times and also solid for us at times.
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Re: Oladipo, Fournier, Tobias Harris, Domantas Sabonis, Vucevic 

Post#28 » by pepe1991 » Wed Jun 2, 2021 6:30 am

SOUL wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Few thoughts.

For start, Fournier is having strong playoffs. Blaming him for not being able to guard James Harden or Durant 1 on 1 is laughable. Virtually nobody can guard them. That's why they are one of best to ever do it.


"Strong" is a bit of an overstatement. He's averaging 13 ppg as arguably their 2nd most talented scorer with Kemba and Jaylen out. Shooting is fine, the rest meh.

Oladipo vs Fournier: Both could've co-existed, same with AG and Tobias. No reason anybody had to be moved other than to placate young egos, minutes were available if they weren't being used up for vets that retired a year or two after their Magic stint. It would be the equivalent of trading Cole or Hampton or Chuma right now to bring in some vets. For what reason? We may not keep all of our young guys by the time our team is good again, but to trade them for guys like Ibaka, Jennings, or Ilyasova is like trading our guys now for Bjelica or Schroder or something. Makes no sense when we know we are gonna be a bad team.

And we couldn't predict injury troubles with Oladipo which is the only reason why Fournier was the right person to keep. Oladipo as a two way player is better than Fournier when both are healthy but Oladipo is never healthy anymore which made Fournier the correct person to keep. Fournier played solid for us, underwhelming at times and also solid for us at times.


Finished played with 15,4 ppg on 43,46,80 split. That's fine in my books for starting SG.

t would be the equivalent of trading Cole or Hampton or Chuma right now to bring in some vets. For what reason? We may not keep all of our young guys by the time our team is good again, but to trade them for guys like Ibaka, Jennings, or Ilyasova is like trading our guys now for Bjelica or Schroder or something. Makes no sense when we know we are gonna be a bad team.


it depends, if you have star guard who plays same position as Cole & Hampton, i would be fine moving them for somebody who makes team more competitive and who will help that young star play competitive basketball.
With Orlando and Harris/Oladipo trades 3 things were different.
- Orlando didn't have clear star to add vets to
- Harris/ Oladipo was pretty damn solid to lose them like that
- vets we retained were simply poor players

And we couldn't predict injury troubles with Oladipo which is the only reason why Fournier was the right person to keep. Oladipo as a two way player is better than Fournier when both are healthy but Oladipo is never healthy anymore which made Fournier the correct person to keep. Fournier played solid for us, underwhelming at times and also solid for us at times.


It's hindsight , sure. But Oladipo after trade:
OKC stint- 16 ppg, 53,4% TS
Pacers breakout- best year of his career
everything since ( 3 years combined) -88 games played ( missed 61% of games ), 40% FG ,50% TS.

Outside of that one year, he has been injuried and terrible every since he left.
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
Date of writeup: March 26th, 2021.
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Re: Oladipo, Fournier, Tobias Harris, Domantas Sabonis, Vucevic 

Post#29 » by MagicMatic » Thu Jun 3, 2021 1:43 pm

magicsanta wrote:Vucevic
Domantas Sabonis
Tobias Harris
Fournier
Oladipo

Where would this team rank? How far would it go in the playoffs?


Not in the top half of the league. Not far.
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Re: Oladipo, Fournier, Tobias Harris, Domantas Sabonis, Vucevic 

Post#30 » by drsd » Fri Jun 4, 2021 10:09 am

MagicMatic wrote:
magicsanta wrote:Vucevic
Domantas Sabonis
Tobias Harris
Fournier
Oladipo

Where would this team rank? How far would it go in the playoffs?


Not in the top half of the league. Not far.


Do you mean that you would not rate the above as a starting five as the 15th best team in the NBA?

Clearly the question must be framed around all five being healthy (and Oladipo being a PG). Looking at the East this year, I would have that roster as the 4-seed. So about the 11th best team in the NBA.


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Re: Oladipo, Fournier, Tobias Harris, Domantas Sabonis, Vucevic 

Post#31 » by MagicMatic » Fri Jun 4, 2021 1:51 pm

drsd wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
magicsanta wrote:Vucevic
Domantas Sabonis
Tobias Harris
Fournier
Oladipo

Where would this team rank? How far would it go in the playoffs?


Not in the top half of the league. Not far.


Do you mean that you would not rate the above as a starting five as the 15th best team in the NBA?

Clearly the question must be framed around all five being healthy (and Oladipo being a PG). Looking at the East this year, I would have that roster as the 4-seed. So about the 11th best team in the NBA.


..


Sure, I’ll play along.

None of those players listed as a starting 5 are reliable or have achieved anything.

Sabonis and Vuc front court would be laughably bad defensively, clogged; and duplicative albeit decent rebounding.

Throw in Tobias, who often disappears, (as well as Fournier) and this roster looks less appealing.

We’ve been over this before, making the playoffs in the eastern conference isn’t an accomplishment. This years Wizards team is more dynamic and interesting than this proposed roster.
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Re: Oladipo, Fournier, Tobias Harris, Domantas Sabonis, Vucevic 

Post#32 » by drsd » Fri Jun 4, 2021 3:01 pm

MagicMatic wrote:Sure, I’ll play along.

None of those players listed as a starting 5 are reliable or have achieved anything.

Sabonis and Vuc front court would be laughably bad defensively, clogged; and duplicative albeit decent rebounding.

Throw in Tobias, who often disappears, (as well as Fournier) and this roster looks less appealing.

We’ve been over this before, making the playoffs in the eastern conference isn’t an accomplishment. This years Wizards team is more dynamic and interesting than this proposed roster.


Considering I view the stated roster as the 11th best team in the NBA, it really does show that the Hennigan concept for this team was failed logic.

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Re: Oladipo, Fournier, Tobias Harris, Domantas Sabonis, Vucevic 

Post#33 » by Xatticus » Fri Jun 4, 2021 5:39 pm

drsd wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
magicsanta wrote:Vucevic
Domantas Sabonis
Tobias Harris
Fournier
Oladipo

Where would this team rank? How far would it go in the playoffs?


Not in the top half of the league. Not far.


Do you mean that you would not rate the above as a starting five as the 15th best team in the NBA?

Clearly the question must be framed around all five being healthy (and Oladipo being a PG). Looking at the East this year, I would have that roster as the 4-seed. So about the 11th best team in the NBA.


..


That team would cost a ton of money and couldn't stop anyone.
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