Game 2: Portland TrailBlazers (1-0) @ Phoenix Suns (0-1)

[Cutter]

One area most people do not think about much is how a team divides up it's total shot attempts among players. Last year Suns averaged about 85 shot attempts per game, and will be around that number this year. You want your most efficient players taking most of your 85 attempts per game, and your less efficient players only attempting high efficiency shots. Example, Tucker works well with the starting unit because he typically guards the opposing teams best player. Plus, he is only taking 4.5 shots per game this year which leaves about 81 shot attempts available for other players (like Warren).

Warren is averaging so far this year 11.5 shots per game. i would like to see that number even higher, somewhere around 13-15 attempts per game: but only if he maintains his normal stellar shot efficiency. By coming off the bench, and playing heavy minutes off the bench, he is much more likely to get 13-15 attempts per game. If you subtract Warrens 15 shots from the team total attempts you get 81-15= 66 shots available for other players. Kieff needs 15 shot attempts, Bledsoe and Knight will want 12+ each, Lens will increase to 8-10 attempts per game etc. Interesting Tyson Chandler averages on 6 shots per game, but on very high efficiency.

If you are a smart coach or GM you want a couple of players like Tucker on your team who are good defensively, but don't require many shot attempts to remain happy.

[bwgood77]

Green had a pretty good game their first game and if you go on the Heat board, they love him and think he's their only bench player worth a damn.

As to the second part, not quite true considering Marcus Morris is balling out of his mind for Detroit and Pistons fans are wondering what the hell Suns fans were complaining about him for.

Adding to the second part, Isaiah Thomas is another person defying that theory. I shouldn't have to explain any further how he's played for the Celtics since we gifted him to Boston for a late 1st rd pick...

I was being sarcastic. People were saying everyone plays better after leaving here after one games. All those guys had some great games for us, and some not so great games for us and I'm guessing they will continue to have great and not so great games going forward. I'd rather have Booker going forward than Green, Warren than Morris and Knight than IT.

Idk right now if I'd rather have Knight than IT but we'll see.

I'm just not a fan of IT at all. He dribbles too much, doesn't initiate ball movement and is too short to do anything on D. He's a nice spark off the bench if you have a bunch of guys that don't mind watching one player dribble and maybe get a pass with two seconds left on the shot clock. Knight seems much more humble too and I much prefer the way he carries himself.

[Revived]

I agree that Warren coming off the bench may be the right thing to do considering his skill set but in that case, Suns have to be looking for another 3 & D SF to acquire to potentially replace Tucker if he continues to be a non factor offensively.

And quite frankly, his defense isn't what it once was either.

Where's Sundeuce at when you need him

[letsgosuns]

Well we lucked out from the line, and fouls called.

Did someone really say Tucker was a black hole on offense? He took 6 shots in 24 minutes. Morris took 17.

A lot of active hands tonight, but we keep turning the ball over on silly mistakes and traveling. Strange, but when I was watching the game, I was thinking how great it was grabbing Chandler, but he has to stop moving on screens, for they call that on us. And within a few seconds, he gets called for one. He is too obvious when doing it. Tyson, just stay set dude!

Tucker is a black hole on offense because he is such a non-threat to score. His offense has regressed dramatically. He averaged 2.5 ppg in preseason and so far is averaging 3 ppg in two regular season games. Obviously it is virtually no sample size but there is no denying that Tucker has become a huge liability offensively. Warren is far superior to him in every facet of the game outside of defense and that might even change one day. Starting Tucker is like having a starting lineup that is going four on five on offense.

No, it's not. His shot just isn't falling. He plays a role on offense, and it's sad that you don't see that. TJ is a different player, who often looks for his own shot, and he does fine coming off the bench.

You are right. It is not just sad I do not see it, it is super sad. It is downright pathetic. Tucker's role as a mediocre corner three point shooter is the key to the Suns offense. I see it now. I cannot believe I did not before.

Give me a break. You are telling me that Tucker's shot not falling is the reason why he is not a good offensive player right now? He is barely even shooting. His role on offense is almost non-existant. Any decent shooting small forward can play Tucker's role of standing in the corner for spacing. He is not a unique or starting caliber player.

Warren needs to start immediately. You know why? Because anybody that watches him knows he has the full offensive arsenal and needs more playing time than anyone on the team. If he got 35 mpg this year, I think he could score 20+ ppg. This is not 1992-93 where you could start Ceballos or Dumas and get great offensive production from both of them. Tucker gives you nothing besides the threat of spacing the floor. And he is not like Dennis Rodman where you put up with his lack offense because he is an amazing defender and the best rebounder of all time. Tucker is a hustle player with serious limitations. And oh yeah, don't the Suns want to develop their young talent and not hold them back? Having Warren's offensive versatility starting could transform the entire team.

[Saberestar]

I agree that Warren coming off the bench may be the right thing to do considering his skill set but in that case, Suns have to be looking for another 3 & D SF to acquire to potentially replace Tucker if he continues to be a non factor offensively.

And quite frankly, his defense isn't what it once was either.

Where's Sundeuce at when you need him

We NEED to know what he thinks about Tucker.

[Damkac]

I don't care if Warren will start or not as long as he will get lot of minutes. I would love for him to win 6th Man of the Year award

Don't know if I prefer Knight or IT. But I prefer IT + LA pick than Knight.

[Revived]

Gerald Green with a minus 18 tonight on 1-9 shooting. It's amazing how players that leave here play worse.

Green had a pretty good game their first game and if you go on the Heat board, they love him and think he's their only bench player worth a damn.

As to the second part, not quite true considering Marcus Morris is balling out of his mind for Detroit and Pistons fans are wondering what the hell Suns fans were complaining about him for.

Adding to the second part, Isaiah Thomas is another person defying that theory. I shouldn't have to explain any further how he's played for the Celtics since we gifted him to Boston for a late 1st rd pick...

I was being sarcastic. People were saying everyone plays better after leaving here after one games. All those guys had some great games for us, and some not so great games for us and I'm guessing they will continue to have great and not so great games going forward. I'd rather have Booker going forward than Green, Warren than Morris and Knight than IT.

Oh yes, I'm well aware that's not true. I had a thread on that very topic just a few years ago

viewtopic.php?t=1294020

[JMac1]

Putting all you firepower in one lineup is not a way to go. You can argue that Warren should get more minutes than Tucker, but Tucker in starting lineup is simply a better fit. As it stands right now, Warren is a number one scoring option in a bench unit, and it fits him perfectly.

I disagree with this philosophy. You start your best players and you make sure you have a Warren type coming off of the bench.

Good thing Popovich disagrees with you. Ginobli came off the bench so many times for the Spurs over the past 10 years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html

Why is that a good thing? I don't get it. Plus, you must have missed the part about having a better offensive weapon starting, we don't.

[JMac1]

I disagree with this philosophy. You start your best players and you make sure you have a Warren type coming off of the bench.

Good thing Popovich disagrees with you. Ginobli came off the bench so many times for the Spurs over the past 10 years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html

Harden too with OKC. Especially since Warren is such a good ballhandler. I definitely want him out there when both of our starting guards are sitting and preferably every time one of the starting guards is sitting, giving us two good ball handlers who can score out there at all times.

Again, I would not start Harden if I had Westbrook and Durant in the starting lineup; not enough shots to go around, but that is not the case here.

If Suns fans did not know, thus far, Warren is our most effiecint and effective score/creator/iso guy on the team,IMO.

[letsgosuns]

When the Suns have players like Tim Duncan and Tony Parker on the team, then you can talk about the luxury of being able to bring a player like Ginobili off the bench.

As far as Harden coming off the bench in OKC, look at what happened when he went to Houston and became a starter.

OKC-
2011-12: Sixth man of the year
Houston-
2012-13: All Star, All NBA 3rd Team, 8th in MVP voting
2013-14: All Star, All NBA 1st Team, 5th in MVP voting
2014-15: All star, All NBA 1st Team, 2nd in MVP voting

Does anyone think Harden would have done that had he continued to be a bench player for OKC? If he stayed there, he would have been a perennial 6th man of the year candidate or eventually started. Either way, him becoming a starter is what catapulted him to the NBA elite. But worth noting is that he played with Durant and Westbrook. Two MVP candidates themselves.

Do the Suns have MVP candidates in the starting lineup? No. Are the Suns in the quest for an NBA championship this year where they are more interested in winning immediately with veterans than developing their young potential all star? No. Does starting Tucker over Warren make this Suns team a championship contender? No. Then why hold Warren back. Who was the seasoned veteran in 2002, Gugliotta or Stoudemire? Gugliotta. Who did you want to start? STOUDEMIRE. If Stoudemire was kept on the bench in favor of Gugliotta, he never wins rookie of the year and becomes what he became. Starting Tucker instead of Warren is asinine any way you spin it. Maybe you have Warren be the bench leader if you have multiple all stars in the starting lineup but the Suns do not. They are in beyond desperate need of an all star. Warren has that potential. Just put him in the starting lineup already. Stop holding back because of a player like Tucker.

[Saberestar]

When the Suns have players like Tim Duncan and Tony Parker on the team, then you can talk about the luxury of being able to bring a player like Ginobili off the bench.

As far as Harden coming off the bench in OKC, look at what happened when he went to Houston and became a starter.

OKC-
2011-12: Sixth man of the year
Houston-
2012-13: All Star, All NBA 3rd Team, 8th in MVP voting
2013-14: All Star, All NBA 1st Team, 5th in MVP voting
2014-15: All star, All NBA 1st Team, 2nd in MVP voting

Does anyone think Harden would have done that had he continued to be a bench player for OKC? If he stayed there, he would have been a perennial 6th man of the year candidate or eventually started. Either way, him becoming a starter is what catapulted him to the NBA elite. But worth noting is that he played with Durant and Westbrook. Two MVP candidates themselves.

Do the Suns have MVP candidates in the starting lineup? No. Are the Suns in the quest for an NBA championship this year where they are more interested in winning immediately with veterans than developing their young potential all star? No. Does starting Tucker over Warren make this Suns team a championship contender? No. Then why hold Warren back. Who was the seasoned veteran in 2002, Gugliotta or Stoudemire? Gugliotta. Who did you want to start? STOUDEMIRE. If Stoudemire was kept on the bench in favor of Gugliotta, he never wins rookie of the year and becomes what he became. Starting Tucker instead of Warren is asinine any way you spin it. Maybe you have Warren be the bench leader if you have multiple all stars in the starting lineup but the Suns do not. They are in beyond desperate need of an all star. Warren has that potential. Just put him in the starting lineup already. Stop holding back because of a player like Tucker.

I agree. I really see Warren prepared to be a good starter in the NBA now, and he is a decent defender already.
I like Tucker, he is the ultimate hustle player, but the pure talent of Warren puts him in another category as a player.

Well, at the end of the day I will be happy if we win games and Warren plays a good number of minutes like starter or coming from the bench.

[JMac1]

When the Suns have players like Tim Duncan and Tony Parker on the team, then you can talk about the luxury of being able to bring a player like Ginobili off the bench.

As far as Harden coming off the bench in OKC, look at what happened when he went to Houston and became a starter.

OKC-
2011-12: Sixth man of the year
Houston-
2012-13: All Star, All NBA 3rd Team, 8th in MVP voting
2013-14: All Star, All NBA 1st Team, 5th in MVP voting
2014-15: All star, All NBA 1st Team, 2nd in MVP voting

Does anyone think Harden would have done that had he continued to be a bench player for OKC? If he stayed there, he would have been a perennial 6th man of the year candidate or eventually started. Either way, him becoming a starter is what catapulted him to the NBA elite. But worth noting is that he played with Durant and Westbrook. Two MVP candidates themselves.

Do the Suns have MVP candidates in the starting lineup? No. Are the Suns in the quest for an NBA championship this year where they are more interested in winning immediately with veterans than developing their young potential all star? No. Does starting Tucker over Warren make this Suns team a championship contender? No. Then why hold Warren back. Who was the seasoned veteran in 2002, Gugliotta or Stoudemire? Gugliotta. Who did you want to start? STOUDEMIRE. If Stoudemire was kept on the bench in favor of Gugliotta, he never wins rookie of the year and becomes what he became. Starting Tucker instead of Warren is asinine any way you spin it. Maybe you have Warren be the bench leader if you have multiple all stars in the starting lineup but the Suns do not. They are in beyond desperate need of an all star. Warren has that potential. Just put him in the starting lineup already. Stop holding back because of a player like Tucker.

Thank God......I thought I was the only one. Now I know I am not crazy.

[bwgood77]

Good thing Popovich disagrees with you. Ginobli came off the bench so many times for the Spurs over the past 10 years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html

Harden too with OKC. Especially since Warren is such a good ballhandler. I definitely want him out there when both of our starting guards are sitting and preferably every time one of the starting guards is sitting, giving us two good ball handlers who can score out there at all times.

Again, I would not start Harden if I had Westbrook and Durant in the starting lineup; not enough shots to go around, but that is not the case here.

If Suns fans did not know, thus far, Warren is our most effiecint and effective score/creator/iso guy on the team,IMO.

I agree which is why I don't mind him in the sixth man role since second unit lacks scorers. IF Knight was coming off bench, I'd start Warren definitely.

[bwgood77]

When the Suns have players like Tim Duncan and Tony Parker on the team, then you can talk about the luxury of being able to bring a player like Ginobili off the bench.

As far as Harden coming off the bench in OKC, look at what happened when he went to Houston and became a starter.

OKC-
2011-12: Sixth man of the year
Houston-
2012-13: All Star, All NBA 3rd Team, 8th in MVP voting
2013-14: All Star, All NBA 1st Team, 5th in MVP voting
2014-15: All star, All NBA 1st Team, 2nd in MVP voting

Does anyone think Harden would have done that had he continued to be a bench player for OKC? If he stayed there, he would have been a perennial 6th man of the year candidate or eventually started. Either way, him becoming a starter is what catapulted him to the NBA elite. But worth noting is that he played with Durant and Westbrook. Two MVP candidates themselves.

Do the Suns have MVP candidates in the starting lineup? No. Are the Suns in the quest for an NBA championship this year where they are more interested in winning immediately with veterans than developing their young potential all star? No. Does starting Tucker over Warren make this Suns team a championship contender? No. Then why hold Warren back. Who was the seasoned veteran in 2002, Gugliotta or Stoudemire? Gugliotta. Who did you want to start? STOUDEMIRE. If Stoudemire was kept on the bench in favor of Gugliotta, he never wins rookie of the year and becomes what he became. Starting Tucker instead of Warren is asinine any way you spin it. Maybe you have Warren be the bench leader if you have multiple all stars in the starting lineup but the Suns do not. They are in beyond desperate need of an all star. Warren has that potential. Just put him in the starting lineup already. Stop holding back because of a player like Tucker.

I think 95% of us would rather see Warren starting but my point is that as long as he is balling and getting more minutes than PJ and probably closing games it doesn't matter and he likely will be starting soon anyway especially if he keeps hitting those threes. With a lot of driving and midrange playets, spacing is needed. I think he likely starts within a couple of months though like Len did last year.

I think PJ'S hustle and defense are really being over looked in the game. Someone earlier today said that TJ is better at all facets of the game except defense, but defense is half the game.

Don't get me wrong because TJ is my favorite player but his long range shooting and D will improve and he is playing starter type minutes anyway.

[bigfoot]

I disagree with this philosophy. You start your best players and you make sure you have a Warren type coming off of the bench.

Good thing Popovich disagrees with you. Ginobli came off the bench so many times for the Spurs over the past 10 years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html

Why is that a good thing? I don't get it. Plus, you must have missed the part about having a better offensive weapon starting, we don't.

You made a generalization about the best players starting and I pointed out a case were a different team and a well-respected coach disagreed with your philosophy. Not saying Warren shouldn't start at some point but it is pretty clear to me that sometimes the best players don't always start but usually do finish the game.

Edit: You can't put all your offensive weapons onto the same unit leaving your bench void of scorers. Most would agree that we felt Bledsoe, Knight, and Kief would be the primary offensive weapons for the starting unit with Chandler and Tucker providing defense and rebounding. Moving Warren to the starting lineup is going to reduce shots for Knight, Bledsoe, Kief, and Warren. It might make sense to move Warren and Leuer to the starting lineup and Tucker and Kief to the bench. I'd be all over that move.

[Cutter]

I think Warren and Len develop in an excellent bench tandem that with time will be 8 year starters for this team. Hornacek is very smart to bring them along slowly and let them develop.

[RunDogGun]

It's a bit ironic, but with so many up Warren's butt, he goes 0-6 the next night in Portland. His only stats are 1 rebound, and 3 fouls in 19 minutes.

Again, he is fine coming off the bench.

[drewsprocket]

I really like Warren and hopes he continues to show he will be a starter. But a star he has yet to show potential for. He's a versatile scorer so far and very one dimensional one at that. I'll be happy if he gets 10-12 ppg this year but he'll still be another year or two away.


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