Why do Suns players who leave PHX struggle so much elsewhere

[Revived]

Pretty slow in here and nothing much going on so I'm gonna ask you guys about something that a friend was discussing with me a couple weeks back. Why do good Suns players who have left Phoenix in the past 10 years struggle so much with other teams?

I'll start with Raja Bell. He was one of the best defensive players in the NBA with Suns but dude has been completely irrelevant since getting traded out by PHX.

Diaw got bounced around after getting traded out of PHX though he now looks like he finally found a home in San Antonio.

Marion, like Diaw seems to have bounced around the league and finally sticking with Dallas.

Shaq was an All Star in PHX and play very well here. Got traded to the Cavs and did absolutely nothing with them. Useless with the Celtics as well.

Amare, no need to explain here I think everyone knows what happened. The Suns brilliant medical staff not being confident in Amare's health should have been hint enough for the rest of the league.

Barbosa who was 6MOY with the Suns, is now not even in the NBA a few years after being traded from PHX.

Jason Richardson who was a good SG putting up close to 20 with the Suns and then went to Orlando and is now completely irrelevant in Philly? Or is he still in Orlando? Who knows and who cares, there's the point.

Robin Lopez seems to always play well in the beginning with his new team but then suck towards the end leading to the fans wanting him gone. Same thing this year, he's gotten off to a good start with Portland but will that last or will the same thing that happened in PHX and NOH happen in Portland?

Grant Hill, key role player with the Suns and an excellent defender with PHX as well that became completely irrelevant after leaving the Suns.

Steve Nash, 2 time MVP with the Suns and developed into top 5 PG of all time in the desert but became completely useless for the Lakers and their fans actually believe they are better off when he doesn't play.

Jared Dudley, fan favorite, good shooter and high energy hustle guy with the Suns. Clippers fans have been complaining about his play all year long. I would still love him back in PHX but I know he hasn't lived up to the expectations under the bright lights of Staples Center.

Gortat, Scola and Joe Johnson seem like the only players to actually stay productive even after leaving PHX.

Is it because of the system we run in PHX? Do players look better here than they would elsewhere? Or is our FO just geniuses in terms of knowing when a player is gonna start sucking and letting them go lol.

Props to our past front offices for letting players go and not having it come back to bite us in the ass.

We can maybe use this as a bargaining chip when our players become FAs in the future...."you wanna become completely irrelevant by leaving the Suns? Look at these players and where they are now.." lol.

[NTB]

Nice thread but i really don't know the answer.Maybe just a coincidence.Or maybe cause of our medical staff?

[Big NBA Fan]

You're right about Raja. He played really well during his first year in Charlotte, but fell off after that and is out of the league. I think what hurt him around the league were his clashes with Porter in Phoenix and Corbin in Utah.

Shaq was out of shape in Cleveland and his body broke down in Boston really quickly. What he did in 2009 for the Suns was pretty remarkable given how washed-up he looked in Miami after 2006 which is when his decline started. I thought he would do better in Cleveland playing with LeBron and in a slow-paced offense, but he struggled mightily there. He had no lift that season and actually hurt them. He fit in much better with the Celtics before his body broke down.

Diaw, like Raja, played really well for the Bobcats at the beginning under Larry Brown, and then struggled after that before finding a home in San Antonio.

Gortat is doing decent with the Wizards.

Marion sucked in Miami and was just OK in Toronto, but has found a home in Dallas. However, his offensive numbers were definitely inflated under D'Antoni and he's yet to make it out of the first round other than Dallas' 2011 championship season.

Grant Hill couldn't stay healthy with the Clippers and was a non-factor for them...I think him, Amare, Nash, and Shaq are examples of how much they missed the Suns medical staff who kept them healthy.

Dudley's struggles are definitely surprising, but I think he will turn it around because he works so hard and is a very smart player.

Nash has been a complete disaster with the Lakers. What a terrible trade for them.

That's my opinion.

[Scutt]

I don't think players struggle when they leave Phoenix at all. Look at Dragic, Robin Lopez, Earl Clark, and Joe Johnson. All the players you listed left Phoenix after their primes or after they got paid.

Raja Bell - Old

Shaq - Old

Amare - Injuries

Diaw - Played for a contract

Barbosa - Injury

Grant Hill - Old

Steve Nash - Old

Jared Dudley - I think Dudley will get back to where he was, I'm not sure he is 100% healthy now...

[Big NBA Fan]

I still can't believe the Lakers passed on hiring the greatest coach in NBA history because of a 40 year old PG in Nash and overlooking the fact that Phil was a better fit for the rest of the team. They essentially chose Nash over Howard, who had personally asked them to hire Phil instead of Mike D.

Mike D is a good coach, but he was a horrible fit for last year's team. Similar to Porter and the 2009 Suns. Bad fit.

[thamadkant]

Err...Phil Jackson was being a hard ass during negotiation with Lakers FO... He wanted GM power if he returns as coach.

The lakers FO didn't want to surrender to Phil's demands from my understanding.

[Big NBA Fan]

Phil has denied all the reports that have come out suggesting he wanted more power, would not coach during away games, etc.

They called him at midnight to tell him they had hired Mike instead. I thought it was extremely ungrateful of them after what Phil has done for that organization.

The question is this: Do you prefer last year's talent or this year's team?

Phil would have been better for last year's team - which was a better team - but Mike is a better fit for this season's team.

Phil even said he laughed when Kupchack told him Mike D fit the players of last year's team better. The Lakers were completely wrong. His system only fit Nash, who has been a complete non-factor for them.

[Miklo]

Good thread...

I think there's some of everything going on.

Some players were nearing the end of their careers or dealing with consistently worsening injuries/physicality. Bell, Shaq, Amar'e, Hill, Nash, etc

Some legitimately were just better on PHX, and I'd have to generalize by saying it's the guys from our "sum is better than the parts" teams. Dudley would be a perfect example - I do believe he can perform better than he currently is under the right circumstances, but it's just that Phoenix was the perfect circumstances. Diaw would fall here too, but he did have the laziness thing going on so as Scutt said he played out of his mind for a contract -then probably got lazy again.

Barbosa would fall under both categories I think. Also, Matrix has been looking good, but still not like his Phoenix days. I think he falls into both categories to a slight degree.

[Revived]

I don't think players struggle when they leave Phoenix at all. Look at Dragic, Robin Lopez, Earl Clark, and Joe Johnson. All the players you listed left Phoenix after their primes or after they got paid.

Good point about Johnson and Lopez. I'll add them to the OP.

I'm curious you mentioned Earl Clark though. What has he really done since leaving PHX? I know he isn't starting, is he even in the rotation for whatever team he's on?

[Wannabe MEP]

1) Small-ball/superb spacing
2) Steve Nash

The guys who spent a lot of time playing D'Antoni-ball, especially alongside Steve Nash, found themselves in very different roles when they left. Wings in particular: Raja Bell, Barbosa, Dudley, Marion, and Grant Hill got some really easy looks package-delivered to them -- most of them thrived as off-ball shooters/slashers. None of these players have been as successful creating for themselves, especially with poorer spacing.

Also, because we played so much small-ball, our players would sometimes switch positions when they left. These players had a speed mismatch with the Suns that disappeared when they were slotted back into their more traditional position on other teams. Marion had a huge speed advantage as a 4, but not as a 3. Amare had a huge speed advantage as a 5, but not as a 4.

The counter-examples are players that didn't get much playing time alongside Nash and/or with our patented small-ball spacing (e.g. Robin Lopez, Earl Clark).

[Revived]

Gortat is apparently playing really well in Washington btw:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... in-gortat/

Helping out Beal.

[NaturalBuns]

I'd like to add Quentin Richardson to that list and Jason Richardson lol.

I don't know what it is its obviously a combination of things.
Age
Injuries
System

Only person I disagree with is Marion Miami fans loved him and dallas fans did too in 2011 etc hes just getting old.

[Big NBA Fan]

Marion was a great defender and rebounder in Miami, but he struggled mightily in their offensive system. He only averaged 12 points a game in his contract year and was traded in mid-season because he wasn't really making an impact.

He also had some harsh words for them on his way out. Shawn is a great guy and great player, but he wasn't a very good fit with the Heat. There's a reason they traded him so quickly after initially saying they wanted him long-term and there's a reason he criticized their system on his way out.

He played pretty well in Toronto though.

[Cutter]

Suns have recently (last 10 years) always been a system oriented team. Once players are traded out of the system they excelled in, they really struggle.

[BurningHeart]

Because we have a very specific system which highlights players' strengths. They end up meaning more to us than they'll ever mean to any other team.

I love it.

[Ring_Wanted]

The system we had and Nash plays a part, of course, but I think the main reasons were health and age, particularly when they are don't have Phx's med staff anymore.

Other times, like in Marion's case, the destination was not really a good fit, as pointed. Still a hell of a contributor, tho, against all predictions (see last game).

Raja was done as an elite defender when traded. Still useful, but not the same player. Then injuries.

Diaw had a somewhat decent career for the Bobcats and now is playing a nice role for the Spurs. He didn't live up to his MIP season there, but he was not doing it on the Suns either. Remember how poorly he fit with Amare and how out of shape he was after 2005-6?

Barbosa was performing in Toronto better than his last season with the Suns in 2010, but it didn't last. Q had a bad back (which is why we had to send NY the #21)

I think it's simply that some players spent their best years here and in older cases, they were getting NBA life support here with Aaron Nelson.

By the way, Dudley started the season horribly but is slowly bouncing back. He was prone to this on the Suns too, as well as Frye.

[bwgood77]

Gortat is apparently playing really well in Washington btw:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... in-gortat/

Helping out Beal.

That's pretty sweet.

[sunsdragic]

Kendall marshall on the other hand

[Revived]

Its time to add Channing Frye to this list.

[lilfishi22]

Never thought Frye would be nearly as good as he would be with the Suns. Before he became a stretch 4 with the Suns, he was a mediocre big man who doesn't rebound well, defend well and he wasn't much of a scorer either. We found a system which worked and it was a huge part of that system. It's not rocket science to believe when a player leaves a perfect situation, he'll begin to struggle.