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The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

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Ayton vs Doncic, Who you picking?

Ayton all the way!
109
53%
Definitely Doncic!
98
47%
 
Total votes: 207

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The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#1 » by Kerrsed » Fri May 18, 2018 3:26 am

Apollo Ayton Vs. Luka Drago

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After 127 pages in the last draft thread its time to start a new. Since Ayton and Doncic are going to dominate the board with posts about them i have decided to split up the threads for the #1 pick and the other 2 (Technically 3). I understand there will be some crossover due to trade ideas and such, but please people, if you are going to be discussing #16 or #31 please take it to the other thread so it doesnt get buried by Ayton & Doncic.

Last Draft Thread (Postseason Edition): viewtopic.php?p=66198209#p66198209

The #16 and #31 Discussion Thread: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1707307
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#2 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Fri May 18, 2018 3:30 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Jkam31 wrote:I wasn’t coming in here hostile if anybody thinks that, I’m just a Kong’s fan interested in what you guys want and need at 1. We are linked together now having 1 and 2 so I’m in here seeing who you guys love.

As for us we’re mostly split I think between Ayton/Doncic and it’s a win win for us. I have Doncic at 1 and would love a future small ball lineup with him at PF.

House SunKings until I rival takes off soon


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums


Well some think it's in the realm of possibility we end up both, and I think the only way that happens is if we become KingSuns, so we may as well just go with that.

Our board was high on both most of the year (not all were high on both) but it was pretty evenly split for who liked who. Doncic won early polls with more options, then with only them two as options, they tied, then later Doncic won, and now after getting the #1 pick, Ayton is winning, though it includes more votes, some assuredly from other fanbases. It does seem some people who were previously leaning Doncic have switched to Ayton and less so the other way around.

But for some of us it's very close. Personally I was kind of hoping we got two (and that our GM had these guys 1/2 for sure) so we could just pick who was left.


I changed my mind the second I tuned in to the draft lottery show. Instantly and clearly. In that moment, my self-denial became obvious. Of course Ayton is the pick.

... The recent scouting reports confirming that of course Doncic could not defend NBA PGs might also have had a lot to do with it. I have a veeeeery hard time imagining that a starting lineup featuring Booker, Doncic and Jackson is optimal. Booker's a 2. Jackson's a 2/3. Doncic is a 2/3, and in time, maybe a 4. I don't really want any of those guys as my full court primary ball handler, either. Both Booker and Doncic seem well-suited to be half court ball handlers, with Doncic being better suited to it due to his superior passing. But Jackson's shown a ton of flashes as a creator in the half-court as well. So none of them are taking the ball out of bounds, but all of them need the ball to some extent at the head of our half-court offense. Hmm. I understand passing is important, but it's not like Booker, Jackson and Bender can't pass. People seem to think he fills a need that I don't think we have to the extent people believe.

Booker and Jackson at the 2 and 3 works. Warren as the 30 MPG 6th man works. Ayton clearly works. Is it flawless? Not yet. But Doncic's fit would never be that good, IMO. So supposing neither of them grew substantially as players, I'd prefer Ayton with this squad. And then supposing both of them reached their full potential, I'd *definitely* prefer Ayton to play with Booker and Jackson, because that would mean banners and rings.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#3 » by SideSwipe » Fri May 18, 2018 3:31 am

Doh!!!...Second

Man I love me some Ayton, but wow. B A M B A! His combine results came back unreal. The kid has it all wrapped up in a mature personality that is 100% built for stardom. Whoever takes him will get a steal.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#4 » by TheLogician » Fri May 18, 2018 3:35 am

The last thread locked before I could respond to Revived:

I watched Ayton all season and his motor and passion for the game were never in question. I'd say he was the de facto leader throughout all of the turmoil. His best game was probably at Oregon, the night after the ESPN story broke about Sean Miller allegedly soliciting $100K during his recruitment. He went out and punished the Ducks despite the constant heckling and media attention. Honestly, Ayton was the only thing separating this season from being a complete disaster for Arizona. It might have been our first losing season since Lute Olson retired.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#5 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Fri May 18, 2018 3:36 am

SideSwipe wrote:First...

Man I love me some Ayton, but wow. B A M B A! His combine results came back unreal. The kid has it all wrapped up in a mature personality that is 100% built for stardom. Whoever takes him will get a steal.


I agree with this, too. If we were sitting at 2, I think I'd be favoring Bamba.

Thank Jabbar I don't have to think about all that, and instead have five comfortable weeks of knowing exactly what will happen on draft night.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#6 » by bwgood77 » Fri May 18, 2018 3:41 am

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Jkam31 wrote:I wasn’t coming in here hostile if anybody thinks that, I’m just a Kong’s fan interested in what you guys want and need at 1. We are linked together now having 1 and 2 so I’m in here seeing who you guys love.

As for us we’re mostly split I think between Ayton/Doncic and it’s a win win for us. I have Doncic at 1 and would love a future small ball lineup with him at PF.

House SunKings until I rival takes off soon


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums


Well some think it's in the realm of possibility we end up both, and I think the only way that happens is if we become KingSuns, so we may as well just go with that.

Our board was high on both most of the year (not all were high on both) but it was pretty evenly split for who liked who. Doncic won early polls with more options, then with only them two as options, they tied, then later Doncic won, and now after getting the #1 pick, Ayton is winning, though it includes more votes, some assuredly from other fanbases. It does seem some people who were previously leaning Doncic have switched to Ayton and less so the other way around.

But for some of us it's very close. Personally I was kind of hoping we got two (and that our GM had these guys 1/2 for sure) so we could just pick who was left.


I changed my mind the second I tuned in to the draft lottery show. Instantly and clearly. In that moment, my self-denial became obvious. Of course Ayton is the pick.

... The recent scouting reports confirming that of course Doncic could not defend NBA PGs might also have had a lot to do with it. I have a veeeeery hard time imagining that a starting lineup featuring Booker, Doncic and Jackson is optimal. Booker's a 2. Jackson's a 2/3. Doncic is a 2/3, and in time, maybe a 4. I don't really want any of those guys as my full court primary ball handler, either. Both Booker and Doncic seem well-suited to be half court ball handlers, with Doncic being better suited to it due to his superior passing. But Jackson's shown a ton of flashes as a creator in the half-court as well. So none of them are taking the ball out of bounds, but all of them need the ball to some extent at the head of our half-court offense. Hmm. I understand passing is important, but it's not like Booker, Jackson and Bender can't pass. People seem to think he fills a need that... I don't really think we have!

Booker and Jackson at the 2 and 3 works. Warren as the 30 MPG 6th man works. Ayton clearly works. Is it flawless? Not yet. But Doncic's fit would never be that good, IMO. So supposing neither of them grew substantially as players, I'd prefer Ayton with this squad. And then supposing both of them reached their full potential, I'd *definitely* prefer Ayton to play with Booker and Jackson, because that would mean banners and rings.


I think of it more like positionless basketball than you obviously....I've noticed..but I think with those three any can bring the ball up the court and Luka and Booker are both good with and without the ball. I don't think you have to call one the PG on offense. I think Luka is a fairly solid defender who can defend four positions, and he can defend some point guards. Maybe not the very quickest ones, but I think we switch enough it works. Plus they all three would not be on the court at all time and there would likely be another PG playing with them sometimes.

Boston is a good example (talked about on the Woj podcast) that the more guys you have that can handle the ball and play make the better. They are almost short handed right now without Kyrie/Hayward, but would have the perfect group with those two back.

It is weird that people seem to think we can't have more than 2 or 3 good players who have similar skills...skills that it's good for all basketball players have...or that they are that focused on traditional positions.

I do get that Ayton is a clear fit. It's not an easy choice. I don't think in any way Doncic would not be a good fit though. And I do think it will be easier to fill the C role by other means (but of course it's not Ayton).

It's close and I can see when that #1 pick goes into your lap, it's easy to say "We have to go with the crazy athletic big". It's enticing. Like I said before, I would hate to pass on either guy so I almost hoped we got the 2nd pick.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#7 » by DirtyDez » Fri May 18, 2018 3:46 am

TheLogician wrote:The last thread locked before I could respond to Revived:

I watched Ayton all season and his motor and passion for the game were never in question. I'd say he was the de facto leader throughout all of the turmoil. His best game was probably at Oregon, the night after the ESPN story broke about Sean Miller allegedly soliciting $100K during his recruitment. He went out and punished the Ducks despite the constant heckling and media attention. Honestly, Ayton was the only thing separating this season from being a complete disaster for Arizona. It might have been our first losing season since Lute Olson retired.


Interesting you bring you bring up the Oregon game which was 24 hours after the ESPN report about his family and the 100k payments. He could’ve shriveled under the microscope but he stepped his game up.

Last 8 games after the ESPN report:
28 pts 18 rbs 4 blks
12 pts 10 rbs 2blks
26 pts 20 rbs 0blks
10 pts 6 rbs 3 blks (blowout win)
32 pts 14 rbs 2 blks
32 pts 18 rbs 1 blk
14 pts 13 rbs 1 blk
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#8 » by King4Day » Fri May 18, 2018 3:52 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Jkam31 wrote:I wasn’t coming in here hostile if anybody thinks that, I’m just a Kong’s fan interested in what you guys want and need at 1. We are linked together now having 1 and 2 so I’m in here seeing who you guys love.

As for us we’re mostly split I think between Ayton/Doncic and it’s a win win for us. I have Doncic at 1 and would love a future small ball lineup with him at PF.

House SunKings until I rival takes off soon


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums


Well some think it's in the realm of possibility we end up both, and I think the only way that happens is if we become KingSuns, so we may as well just go with that.

Our board was high on both most of the year (not all were high on both) but it was pretty evenly split for who liked who. Doncic won early polls with more options, then with only them two as options, they tied, then later Doncic won, and now after getting the #1 pick, Ayton is winning, though it includes more votes, some assuredly from other fanbases. It does seem some people who were previously leaning Doncic have switched to Ayton and less so the other way around.

But for some of us it's very close. Personally I was kind of hoping we got two (and that our GM had these guys 1/2 for sure) so we could just pick who was left.


I most def did. I was on the Doncic wagon for months. I don't think I ever truly believed we would land the top pick. The moment we did, I had a change of heart. Part of it, which I know is the worst way of thinking, is that I worry if we don't take the consensus best player (that experts believe at least) that we could go years or decades of hearing "what could have been?"

If we take Ayton, nobody will ever bat an eye if he busts and Doncic rules the NBA for 10 years.
But if we take Doncic, and Ayton becomes a generational player, it would be a massive hard pill to swallow.
I hold out hope that Ayton can fix his defensive flaws when paired with a great player developer in Igor and a vet like Chandler.

It would be nice to have him work with KG for defense and Hakeem to fine tune his offense. At his age, he's still able to be molded.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#9 » by TheLogician » Fri May 18, 2018 3:55 am

DirtyDez wrote:
TheLogician wrote:The last thread locked before I could respond to Revived:

I watched Ayton all season and his motor and passion for the game were never in question. I'd say he was the de facto leader throughout all of the turmoil. His best game was probably at Oregon, the night after the ESPN story broke about Sean Miller allegedly soliciting $100K during his recruitment. He went out and punished the Ducks despite the constant heckling and media attention. Honestly, Ayton was the only thing separating this season from being a complete disaster for Arizona. It might have been our first losing season since Lute Olson retired.


Interesting you bring you bring up the Oregon game which was 24 hours after the ESPN report about his family and the 100k payments. He could’ve shriveled under the microscope but he stepped his game up.

Last 8 games after the ESPN report:
28 pts 18 rbs 4 blks
12 pts 10 rbs 2blks
26 pts 20 rbs 0blks
10 pts 6 rbs 3 blks (blowout win)
32 pts 14 rbs 2 blks
32 pts 18 rbs 1 blk
14 pts 13 rbs 1 blk


Yes, and keep in mind he faced many double and triple teams. The primary reason Miller played two bigs was because Ristic could capitalize off of the double team on Ayton.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#10 » by bhawk » Fri May 18, 2018 4:02 am

After looking closer at the Ayton game tapes, I’m still in awe of his shooting. DeAndre doesn’t just score on dunks and put-backs, he is a legitimate shooter. Serious shades of Kevin Durant with the very high release that is virtually unblockable. It is like he is looking down on the basket. Call me impressed and very excited to see Ayton in a Suns uniform. Generational talent.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#11 » by Fo-Real » Fri May 18, 2018 4:03 am

Ayton is the pick. I'm gonna wind up on the news if not.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#12 » by TheLogician » Fri May 18, 2018 4:03 am

bwgood77 wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Well some think it's in the realm of possibility we end up both, and I think the only way that happens is if we become KingSuns, so we may as well just go with that.

Our board was high on both most of the year (not all were high on both) but it was pretty evenly split for who liked who. Doncic won early polls with more options, then with only them two as options, they tied, then later Doncic won, and now after getting the #1 pick, Ayton is winning, though it includes more votes, some assuredly from other fanbases. It does seem some people who were previously leaning Doncic have switched to Ayton and less so the other way around.

But for some of us it's very close. Personally I was kind of hoping we got two (and that our GM had these guys 1/2 for sure) so we could just pick who was left.


I changed my mind the second I tuned in to the draft lottery show. Instantly and clearly. In that moment, my self-denial became obvious. Of course Ayton is the pick.

... The recent scouting reports confirming that of course Doncic could not defend NBA PGs might also have had a lot to do with it. I have a veeeeery hard time imagining that a starting lineup featuring Booker, Doncic and Jackson is optimal. Booker's a 2. Jackson's a 2/3. Doncic is a 2/3, and in time, maybe a 4. I don't really want any of those guys as my full court primary ball handler, either. Both Booker and Doncic seem well-suited to be half court ball handlers, with Doncic being better suited to it due to his superior passing. But Jackson's shown a ton of flashes as a creator in the half-court as well. So none of them are taking the ball out of bounds, but all of them need the ball to some extent at the head of our half-court offense. Hmm. I understand passing is important, but it's not like Booker, Jackson and Bender can't pass. People seem to think he fills a need that... I don't really think we have!

Booker and Jackson at the 2 and 3 works. Warren as the 30 MPG 6th man works. Ayton clearly works. Is it flawless? Not yet. But Doncic's fit would never be that good, IMO. So supposing neither of them grew substantially as players, I'd prefer Ayton with this squad. And then supposing both of them reached their full potential, I'd *definitely* prefer Ayton to play with Booker and Jackson, because that would mean banners and rings.


I think of it more like positionless basketball than you obviously....I've noticed..but I think with those three any can bring the ball up the court and Luka and Booker are both with and without the ball. I don't think you have to call one the PG on offense. I think Luka is a fairly solid defender who can defend four positions, and he can defend some point guards. Maybe not the very quickest ones, but I think we switch enough it works. Plus they all three would not be on the court at all time and there would likely be another PG playing with them sometimes.

Boston is a good example (talked about on the Woj podcast) that the more guys you have that can handle the ball and play make the better. They are almost short handed right now without Kyrie/Hayward, but would have the perfect group with those two back.

It is weird that people seem to think we can't have more than 2 or 3 good players who have similar skills...skills that it's good for all basketball players have...or that they are that focused on traditional positions.

I do get that Ayton is a clear fit. It's not an easy choice. I don't think in any way Doncic would not be a good fit though. And I do think it will be easier to fill the C role by other means (but of course it's not Ayton).

It's close and I can see when that #1 pick goes into your lap, it's easy to say "We have to go with the crazy athletic big". It's enticing. Like I said before, I would hate to pass on either guy so I almost hoped we got the 2nd pick.


Which center would you prefer? Capela for max? Trade up for Bamba? Doncic's court vision is hard to come by but we can easily acquire a PG to move the ball, shoot, and defend.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#13 » by bwgood77 » Fri May 18, 2018 4:11 am

TheLogician wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
I changed my mind the second I tuned in to the draft lottery show. Instantly and clearly. In that moment, my self-denial became obvious. Of course Ayton is the pick.

... The recent scouting reports confirming that of course Doncic could not defend NBA PGs might also have had a lot to do with it. I have a veeeeery hard time imagining that a starting lineup featuring Booker, Doncic and Jackson is optimal. Booker's a 2. Jackson's a 2/3. Doncic is a 2/3, and in time, maybe a 4. I don't really want any of those guys as my full court primary ball handler, either. Both Booker and Doncic seem well-suited to be half court ball handlers, with Doncic being better suited to it due to his superior passing. But Jackson's shown a ton of flashes as a creator in the half-court as well. So none of them are taking the ball out of bounds, but all of them need the ball to some extent at the head of our half-court offense. Hmm. I understand passing is important, but it's not like Booker, Jackson and Bender can't pass. People seem to think he fills a need that... I don't really think we have!

Booker and Jackson at the 2 and 3 works. Warren as the 30 MPG 6th man works. Ayton clearly works. Is it flawless? Not yet. But Doncic's fit would never be that good, IMO. So supposing neither of them grew substantially as players, I'd prefer Ayton with this squad. And then supposing both of them reached their full potential, I'd *definitely* prefer Ayton to play with Booker and Jackson, because that would mean banners and rings.


I think of it more like positionless basketball than you obviously....I've noticed..but I think with those three any can bring the ball up the court and Luka and Booker are both with and without the ball. I don't think you have to call one the PG on offense. I think Luka is a fairly solid defender who can defend four positions, and he can defend some point guards. Maybe not the very quickest ones, but I think we switch enough it works. Plus they all three would not be on the court at all time and there would likely be another PG playing with them sometimes.

Boston is a good example (talked about on the Woj podcast) that the more guys you have that can handle the ball and play make the better. They are almost short handed right now without Kyrie/Hayward, but would have the perfect group with those two back.

It is weird that people seem to think we can't have more than 2 or 3 good players who have similar skills...skills that it's good for all basketball players have...or that they are that focused on traditional positions.

I do get that Ayton is a clear fit. It's not an easy choice. I don't think in any way Doncic would not be a good fit though. And I do think it will be easier to fill the C role by other means (but of course it's not Ayton).

It's close and I can see when that #1 pick goes into your lap, it's easy to say "We have to go with the crazy athletic big". It's enticing. Like I said before, I would hate to pass on either guy so I almost hoped we got the 2nd pick.


Which center would you prefer? Capela for max? Trade up for Bamba? Doncic's court vision is hard to come by but we can easily acquire a PG to move the ball, shoot, and defend.


I would probably try and get one at 16 like Robert Williams, Mitchell Robinson or someone else and then I'd probably sign someone like Favors depending on what other options are there. I don't see a real easy vet fix at PG or anyone at 16 who would be immediately starting caliber, but would probably look at Shake and Shai if they were there at 16 in the case we take Ayton and then maybe try and find a good solid vet. If Beverley doesn't have option picked up and his health checked out, he'd be perfect. If not, I'm not sure. I don't really think Kemba will be a reasonable option that we should overpay or take bad contracts for, and wouldn't trade a bunch for Rozier but I don't think either of those will necessarily be available either.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#14 » by MrMiyagi » Fri May 18, 2018 4:14 am

People keep talking about Doncic's rare court vision, but what about Ayton's? He may not be a fancy passer like Jokic, but dude has great vision and passing being a 7 footer.
SHAZAM!

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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#15 » by thamadkant » Fri May 18, 2018 4:15 am

Jaren Jackson Jr...

6'9.75 without shoes... So legit 6'11 and still 18 years old. Could be 7 feet.

7'5.25 wingspan

And bigger hands than A Davis.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#16 » by thamadkant » Fri May 18, 2018 4:18 am

SideSwipe wrote:Doh!!!...Second

Man I love me some Ayton, but wow. B A M B A! His combine results came back unreal. The kid has it all wrapped up in a mature personality that is 100% built for stardom. Whoever takes him will get a steal.

He just needs to bulk up.

I heard Ayton arm curls 120 pound dumbells

That's nuts... And it shows.

Bamba needs that bulk diet
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#17 » by bwgood77 » Fri May 18, 2018 4:23 am

MrMiyagi wrote:People keep talking about Doncic's rare court vision, but what about Ayton's? He may not be a fancy passer like Jokic, but dude has great vision and passing being a 7 footer.


He's a good passer, but those guys have insane court vision and see things several steps ahead and the entire court at all times. Their IQ is sky high.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#18 » by Kerrsed » Fri May 18, 2018 4:26 am

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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#19 » by Christine-In-AZ » Fri May 18, 2018 4:51 am

As of this moment I'm straddling the fence. Gun to my head? Ayton. But there's still time before my fake GM call has to happen.

Up until a day or so, I was leaning pretty heavily Luka. Oddly, I have watched Dončić play quite a bit more than Ayton until the last couple days. Caught up on my DeAndre viewing.

I hope to watch the Euro final 4...very curious to see how Dončić looks with rest vs pressure.

I've got all the same questions about both talents as the rest of the forum, and how those quailities play to or against current trends in the league.

Watching...weighing, but not worrying. The bust possibility for either dude is near zero. #1 is pretty nifty.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#20 » by AtheJ415 » Fri May 18, 2018 4:57 am

I don't think there's a wrong decision here. Both guys are studs. I personally believe Ayton is going to become a good defender, so with his athleticism and that belief, I lean towards him right now. But, if we really are planning on maxing Capela, and McD did say he considers Capela a freak, then Doncic + Capela can work really well. My hope is still that we somehow end up with Trae Young if he slides. That is my far and away preference for consolidating assets. Even if we draft Doncic I would take Young if he falls beyond 6. I think he's the 3rd best player in this draft pretty clearly.

Doncic is a much better athlete than given credit for and his passing is outstanding. I just don't know that it really is true anymore that finding wings is harder than finding a game changing center. There aren't many centers who fit in today's game, and Ayton is one who does fit. That makes it really tough to pass on him. Also, I think this team really needs another star in the next 2 years, and when I look at FA or trades of who might be available, they are a lot of 1s, a couple 2s, and a bunch of 4s/3s. Only Cousins is a 5 and he may never return to form. Even with Porzingis and Davis should they ever hit the market as FAs or via a trade demand, they prefer to play the 4 so having Ayton might help there.

But if we get Doncic, I kind of prefer him at the 3-4 spot and adding another 1 as well. PG is the most talented spot in the league, and thus I think it makes sense to get an elite one even if we have Doncic because the value will be there in FA or trade and he can still get offensive initiation opportunities if Igor designs the offense correctly.

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