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2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation

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How many games do we win out of our next 15 through Christmas? See post #1029 for schedule

11
4
19%
10
6
29%
9
3
14%
8
1
5%
7
0
No votes
More than 11
7
33%
Fewer than 7
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 21

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2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#1 » by bwgood77 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:04 am

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LETS GET READY TO RUUUUMMMMBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLEEEE!
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#2 » by Mulhollanddrive » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:02 pm

Jones and Sarver have played the Ayton negotations perfectly, we were either going to get him a team friendly deal or challenge him to show the world he's an All-Star. I'm looking forward to him playing even more now and am more confident now he will prove his full worth.

The one area of slight concern for me and this is purely speculative is that Sarver sees Landry Shamet as his next Goran Dragic. A cheap late blooming combo guard who he can promote from within to replace his HoF PG and get out of repeater tax. Sarver has said in the past he likes to work this way in business and the $11m salary and team option timing (coincides with Chris Paul's) just hints to me this is a live Sarver possibility.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#3 » by NapoleonII » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:36 pm

Mulhollanddrive wrote:Jones and Sarver have played the Ayton negotations perfectly, we were either going to get him a team friendly deal or challenge him to show the world he's an All-Star. I'm looking forward to him playing even more now and am more confident now he will prove his full worth.

The one area of slight concern for me and this is purely speculative is that Sarver sees Landry Shamet as his next Goran Dragic. A cheap late blooming combo guard who he can promote from within to replace his HoF PG and get out of repeater tax. Sarver has said in the past he likes to work this way in business and the $11m salary and team option timing (coincides with Chris Paul's) just hints to me this is a live Sarver possibility.



Lol, I'm sorry but this is bordering on sycophantic.

I'm waiting to see what Shamet can do in a Suns uni, and Suns brass is working on what the coaching staff have seen in practice, but Shamet hasn't done $%^& in this league or the playoffs. Ayton HAS.

We messed this up. Maybe not royally, not yet, but the potential is there for this mistake costing us a title.

We should have slightly overpaid Ayton and hoped for the best, said to ourselves well at least we got Bridges on a good discount.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#4 » by bwgood77 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:04 pm

Yeah, I don't know the exact reasoning of not doing an Ayton deal or why they handled it the way they did. I don't mind THAT much waiting if there is good reason BUT

it certainly wasn't handled perfectly. Not negotiating or communicating at all as mentioned by both parties in the Athletic doesn't sound perfect to me. Ayton seems to not have any reason why. Jones has always been a good communicator it seems, so it would have been nice to continue. Now if it was Sarver tying is hands and telling him what to do, not much he can do, and he can't blame Sarver in The Athletic, and WOJ did mention Sarver as not thinking he is worth it, so there is that.

But even if it is straight up telling him :he hasn't played to max potential yet. Do it, and we'll sit down next summer", or "we don't have the cap space to keep this finals run team together...you are an important piece and we will pay you similar to what Booker got, but we have a lot of important pieces. We don't want to minimize your value, but we don't want to lose an important piece too because you feel you are worth more than anyone else." I think communicating something like that might get through. The only problem is, you usually directly have to deal with the agents, so they could have requested a conversation with him.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#5 » by Waylay13 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:22 pm

bwgood77 wrote:Yeah, I don't know the exact reasoning of not doing an Ayton deal or why they handled it the way they did. I don't mind THAT much waiting if there is good reason BUT

it certainly wasn't handled perfectly. Not negotiating or communicating at all as mentioned by both parties in the Athletic doesn't sound perfect to me. Ayton seems to not have any reason why? Jones has always been a good communicator it seems, so it would have been nice to continue. Now if it was Sarver tying is hands and telling him what to do, not much he can do, and he can't blame Sarver in The Athletic, and WOJ did mention Sarver as not thinking he is worth it, so there is that.

But even if it is straight up telling him he hasn't played to max potential yet. Do it, and we'll see, or "we don't have the cap space to keep this finals run team together...you are an important piece and we will pay you similar to what Booker got, but we have a lot of important pieces. We don't want to minimize your value, but we don't want to lose an important piece too because you feel you are worth more than anyone else." I think communicating something like that might get through. The only problem is, you usually directly have to deal with the agents, so they could have requested a conversation with him.


you always start negotiations off at a high point for Ayton that is a 5 year max deal. Yet the Athletic article makes it clear that the Suns didnt put a single offer in front of Ayton. This isnt how you build a good culture of a team first or anything like that this is how you destroy team chemistry. This action with Ayton has completely destroyed any good will I had built up for the team from last year.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#6 » by DroughtsOverPHX » Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:38 pm

I hope Ayton comes out with an I'll show you f'ers attitude. Hate to say but I don't think he is capable of that and James Jones must wonder that also. That requires focus and fire I have not seen out of him yet for longer than 5 minute stints. Read this DA, get mad and prove me wrong. Please.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#7 » by GoodBehavior » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:09 pm

Waylay13 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:Yeah, I don't know the exact reasoning of not doing an Ayton deal or why they handled it the way they did. I don't mind THAT much waiting if there is good reason BUT

it certainly wasn't handled perfectly. Not negotiating or communicating at all as mentioned by both parties in the Athletic doesn't sound perfect to me. Ayton seems to not have any reason why? Jones has always been a good communicator it seems, so it would have been nice to continue. Now if it was Sarver tying is hands and telling him what to do, not much he can do, and he can't blame Sarver in The Athletic, and WOJ did mention Sarver as not thinking he is worth it, so there is that.

But even if it is straight up telling him he hasn't played to max potential yet. Do it, and we'll see, or "we don't have the cap space to keep this finals run team together...you are an important piece and we will pay you similar to what Booker got, but we have a lot of important pieces. We don't want to minimize your value, but we don't want to lose an important piece too because you feel you are worth more than anyone else." I think communicating something like that might get through. The only problem is, you usually directly have to deal with the agents, so they could have requested a conversation with him.


you always start negotiations off at a high point for Ayton that is a 5 year max deal. Yet the Athletic article makes it clear that the Suns didnt put a single offer in front of Ayton. This isnt how you build a good culture of a team first or anything like that this is how you destroy team chemistry. This action with Ayton has completely destroyed any good will I had built up for the team from last year.


We're all shooting in the dark, figuring out the reasoning. IMO, negotiation where communication is limited and no credible offer is on the table, this can only mean one thing: The Suns don't want a deal. This is true for any kind of negotiation, not just sport related. Look at John Collin's extension negotiation, which was very messy. The Hawks at least show interest in retaining him even though the gap between the parties were wide, and talks were contentious, back and forth, and reached a true stalemate. The Ayton/Suns is/was the polar opposite.

Something to keep in mind is that Chris Paul can't play forever. I think he has at most 3 years. When CP is no longer on the team, the team becomes Book team again. To maximize Book, you need a two-stars, iso-heavy offense like the Nets, the Lakers, or the Clippers. Book is not a good PNR handler. I don't see Ayton fitting well with Book in a post-CP world. I also don't think Bridges does well in that kind of offense scheme.

TDLR: Suns are thinking long-term and in a post-CP world, Book is king and Ayton doesn't fit well with Book's strength. Someone like KAT does.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#8 » by Slim Charless » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:12 pm

NapoleonII wrote:
Mulhollanddrive wrote:Jones and Sarver have played the Ayton negotations perfectly, we were either going to get him a team friendly deal or challenge him to show the world he's an All-Star. I'm looking forward to him playing even more now and am more confident now he will prove his full worth.

The one area of slight concern for me and this is purely speculative is that Sarver sees Landry Shamet as his next Goran Dragic. A cheap late blooming combo guard who he can promote from within to replace his HoF PG and get out of repeater tax. Sarver has said in the past he likes to work this way in business and the $11m salary and team option timing (coincides with Chris Paul's) just hints to me this is a live Sarver possibility.



Lol, I'm sorry but this is bordering on sycophantic.

I'm waiting to see what Shamet can do in a Suns uni, and Suns brass is working on what the coaching staff have seen in practice, but Shamet hasn't done $%^& in this league or the playoffs. Ayton HAS.

We messed this up. Maybe not royally, not yet, but the potential is there for this mistake costing us a title.

We should have slightly overpaid Ayton and hoped for the best, said to ourselves well at least we got Bridges on a good discount.


We got Chris on a team friendly deal as well. Should've just paid Ayton.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#9 » by Desertfox » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:06 pm

Could it have been as simple as the Suns worries that Ayton could have snuck into say 3rd Team All-NBA and have triggered the Super MAX kicker? Is that kicker only tied to 5 year MAX deals?
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#10 » by bwgood77 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:16 pm

Desertfox wrote:Could it have been as simple as the Suns worries that Ayton could have snuck into say 3rd Team All-NBA and have triggered the Super MAX kicker? Is that kicker only tied to 5 year MAX deals?


Yeah, that was actually my latest thought. That after this year they will know if it is impossible for him to get to the $207 and would be fine with the $172. That's a big difference. So if that's the case they are probably hoping for continued massive improvement but JUST missing All NBA.

or

They wanted to give him a deal as long as possible but not quite at the max, and on extensions you can only give 5 at that max level, but if you sign your own FA the next summer you can do 5 year deals, like John Collins got last summer (5/$125).

Hopefully next summer they give him a 5 year deal, whether it be the max or a little less. The 30% trigger would have really increase our tax next year, as starting salary on the contract would have jumped over $5 million which would have added like over $15 million to the tax..so it's not just the extra money in the contract, but tax too.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#11 » by bwgood77 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:17 pm

cberry78 wrote:
Revived wrote:Anyone else find the game thread data thing to be annoying at the top of the page on realgm? Looks like a new addition but I can’t figure out a way to disable it. I can see the benefit in it but it also serves as a spoiler.

Looks like you can hide it with Adblock - haven't done it yet, but you can choose to select the area (at least on the main forum page).


Assume Revived means Scoreboard thing at top and not game thread.....

Click your username in top right, click profile, then click "Edit Profile", go to the bottom and you can remove live scores...and also remove wiretaps if you want.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#12 » by Slim Charless » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:09 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Desertfox wrote:Could it have been as simple as the Suns worries that Ayton could have snuck into say 3rd Team All-NBA and have triggered the Super MAX kicker? Is that kicker only tied to 5 year MAX deals?


Yeah, that was actually my latest thought. That after this year they will know if it is impossible for him to get to the $207 and would be fine with the $172. That's a big difference. So if that's the case they are probably hoping for continued massive improvement but JUST missing All NBA.

or

They wanted to give him a deal as long as possible but not quite at the max, and on extensions you can only give 5 at that max level, but if you sign your own FA the next summer you can do 5 year deals, like John Collins got last summer (5/$125).

Hopefully next summer they give him a 5 year deal, whether it be the max or a little less. The 30% trigger would have really increase our tax next year, as starting salary on the contract would have jumped over $5 million which would have added like over $15 million to the tax..so it's not just the extra money in the contract, but tax too.


What's to stop some team from offering him a 2 yr deal with a player option for the 3rd? Allowing him to hit UFA that much earlier.

If I was another team that's what I'd do. Force us to match and just make a play on him in 2 yrs-when Phoenix would be unable to do anything about it.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#13 » by bwgood77 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:39 pm

Slim Charless wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Desertfox wrote:Could it have been as simple as the Suns worries that Ayton could have snuck into say 3rd Team All-NBA and have triggered the Super MAX kicker? Is that kicker only tied to 5 year MAX deals?


Yeah, that was actually my latest thought. That after this year they will know if it is impossible for him to get to the $207 and would be fine with the $172. That's a big difference. So if that's the case they are probably hoping for continued massive improvement but JUST missing All NBA.

or

They wanted to give him a deal as long as possible but not quite at the max, and on extensions you can only give 5 at that max level, but if you sign your own FA the next summer you can do 5 year deals, like John Collins got last summer (5/$125).

Hopefully next summer they give him a 5 year deal, whether it be the max or a little less. The 30% trigger would have really increase our tax next year, as starting salary on the contract would have jumped over $5 million which would have added like over $15 million to the tax..so it's not just the extra money in the contract, but tax too.


What's to stop some team from offering him a 2 yr deal with a player option for the 3rd? Allowing him to hit UFA that much earlier.

If I was another team that's what I'd do. Force us to match and just make a play on him in 2 yrs-when Phoenix would be unable to do anything about it.


Nothing, as we've gone over a bit. I assume he'd prefer to guarantee 5 years and $150-$172 million though. But if he does sign a new big contract after 7 years he can be offered 30% of cap regardless though, so I could see some appeal of a 3 year deal, but you'd still likely be leaving $60-$70 million on the table and could always get injured.

And lets be honest, how many centers after their big 2nd contract continue to make max level money? I think right now there is one, Gobert, and I think the team realizes that was a big mistake. Now with MVP type players, Jokic and Embiid, it's different, but Ayton shouldn't be thinking of a 3rd contract because in all likelihood is annual amount will go down after his 2nd, especially if he gets a max which has a final year close to $40.

I don't think anyone except a Curry level player has been a good contract where the average or starting salary is above $40..or even close to it. I guess Paul had a 4/$160 and many thought it was a bad one and luckily he opted out after 3 and took less per year...but he's one of the best PGs of all time.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#14 » by Saberestar » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:56 pm

Read on Twitter


I think that James Jones doesn't want to invest so much money on a C.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#15 » by bwgood77 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:13 pm

Saberestar wrote:
Read on Twitter


I think that James Jones doesn't want to invest so much money on a C.


That's an interesting choice of words. "Roster contstruction" will have many thinking it is him personally...which could be true, but also just to invest that much money into that position unless MVP caliber makes more sense...and I understand that.

It will just be interesting to see what it comes down to. If there belief is that they will only spend X amount of dollars on a guy, and he won't accept it, will they match an offer? Surely they wouldn't let him walk for nothing.

Then you come to S&Ts which never really get you anything close to value.

So then you get to trading during this season, which is breaking up (in a big way) a finals team.

It's not necessarily encouraging even if I don't necessarily disagree that I don't think it's worth spending that much on a C.

But for all we know, maybe they already have a trade in mind.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#16 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:18 pm

Desertfox wrote:Could it have been as simple as the Suns worries that Ayton could have snuck into say 3rd Team All-NBA and have triggered the Super MAX kicker? Is that kicker only tied to 5 year MAX deals?

I thought that would've been a big factor. Mentioned in the offseason thread that the 3rd team center position isn't super deep. Last 3-4years have been Gobert I think, then Kat then a couple of DeAndre Jordans. If he is a 22-24ppg/12rpg guy with that defense (not impossible), he's an easy 3rd or even 2nd teamer imo. That's obviously the player we want but not the player the Suns want to pay for which is disappointing.

I think we were comfortable with that max without escalators but you kinda have to give the guy some incentives. Honestly, I just wish they came out and just said, we want you to prove yourself over the season. That would've been a lot more palatable and simple than oh we don't want two designated max because it'll limit our future trades or we wanted to do a 3-4 year deal but they didn't etc etc

Do you think the Nuggets thought about trades down the road when maxing out their guy? Of course not, it's such a dumb excuse. To me, it more apparent that the Suns have questions about this core long term. Over this season and maybe the next while we still have CP3, sure they are committed but longer term I don't get that impression.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#17 » by Slim Charless » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:21 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
Read on Twitter


I think that James Jones doesn't want to invest so much money on a C.


That's an interesting choice of words. "Roster contstruction" will have many thinking it is him personally...which could be true, but also just to invest that much money into that position unless MVP caliber makes more sense...and I understand that.

It will just be interesting to see what it comes down to. If there belief is that they will only spend X amount of dollars on a guy, and he won't accept it, will they match an offer? Surely they wouldn't let him walk for nothing.

Then you come to S&Ts which never really get you anything close to value.

So then you get to trading during this season, which is breaking up (in a big way) a finals team.

It's not necessarily encouraging even if I don't necessarily disagree that I don't think it's worth spending that much on a C.

But for all we know, maybe they already have a trade in mind.


Yup. That quote makes it seem like it's a DA thing. Which if true, is dumb. He took a hit to his stats for the good of the team. Not for lack of ability. This is a screw-up of the highest order and unless KAT is coming to the desert, this could set the team back.

I assume they have something worked out, but why not just announce it now? Are they using Booker to recruit KAT I wonder.
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#18 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:23 pm

Slim Charless wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Desertfox wrote:Could it have been as simple as the Suns worries that Ayton could have snuck into say 3rd Team All-NBA and have triggered the Super MAX kicker? Is that kicker only tied to 5 year MAX deals?


Yeah, that was actually my latest thought. That after this year they will know if it is impossible for him to get to the $207 and would be fine with the $172. That's a big difference. So if that's the case they are probably hoping for continued massive improvement but JUST missing All NBA.

or

They wanted to give him a deal as long as possible but not quite at the max, and on extensions you can only give 5 at that max level, but if you sign your own FA the next summer you can do 5 year deals, like John Collins got last summer (5/$125).

Hopefully next summer they give him a 5 year deal, whether it be the max or a little less. The 30% trigger would have really increase our tax next year, as starting salary on the contract would have jumped over $5 million which would have added like over $15 million to the tax..so it's not just the extra money in the contract, but tax too.


What's to stop some team from offering him a 2 yr deal with a player option for the 3rd? Allowing him to hit UFA that much earlier.

If I was another team that's what I'd do. Force us to match and just make a play on him in 2 yrs-when Phoenix would be unable to do anything about it.

Wouldn't opposing teams that have worked to clear space to offer him max money want more certainty in their acquisition than 2 years?
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#19 » by WeekapaugGroove » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:31 pm

Not to read too much into vague quotes but have to at least wonder if they think he has 'Tim Thomas syndrome'. Thats my name for a player who should be paid by the game because any time they get paid longer they check out. Tim throughout his career would also absolute ball out in the playoffs but coast much of the regular season. Hell we got to see it first hand that short stint here in Phoenix, he then got paid by the Clips and yup back to sleepy Tim mode. I'm convinced TT would have been a HOF guy if he was properly motivated, he was that talented. He would have also been better in todays NBA as a prototype stretch 4.

Again who the **** knows. But I'll also say if they aren't comfortable paying Ayton he should be traded by the deadline.

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Re: 2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#20 » by Slim Charless » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:47 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Yeah, that was actually my latest thought. That after this year they will know if it is impossible for him to get to the $207 and would be fine with the $172. That's a big difference. So if that's the case they are probably hoping for continued massive improvement but JUST missing All NBA.

or

They wanted to give him a deal as long as possible but not quite at the max, and on extensions you can only give 5 at that max level, but if you sign your own FA the next summer you can do 5 year deals, like John Collins got last summer (5/$125).

Hopefully next summer they give him a 5 year deal, whether it be the max or a little less. The 30% trigger would have really increase our tax next year, as starting salary on the contract would have jumped over $5 million which would have added like over $15 million to the tax..so it's not just the extra money in the contract, but tax too.


What's to stop some team from offering him a 2 yr deal with a player option for the 3rd? Allowing him to hit UFA that much earlier.

If I was another team that's what I'd do. Force us to match and just make a play on him in 2 yrs-when Phoenix would be unable to do anything about it.

Wouldn't opposing teams that have worked to clear space to offer him max money want more certainty in their acquisition than 2 years?


The thinking is that the opposing team would be doing this with the future in mind. Just get us to match a short deal so that he can hit UFA earlier. In other words, they have no plan to actually sign him to the deal-its just to force us to match it.

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