All Things Luka Doncic

[UcanUwill]

When he has the ball in ahlf court, he always relies on the screen, lacks any Isolation skill at halfcourt. That is the main negative of his game. Another big takeaway is just how ordinary Dragic looks. Most of the time, they dont even try to run plays through him, he just stands in the corner.

Remember that debate we had about Dragic before, Myself and some others here said he would be nothing more than an average player in EuroLeague. We took a ton of heat for that from NBA fans. but reality is reality. He's a lot like Giannis and Rubio - totally needs NBA rules and reffing to be effective.

I still think he would find his way to be a star, but man does his shooting always disappears in FIBA tournaments.

[Mirotic12]

I still think he would find his way to be a star, but man does his shooting always disappears in FIBA tournaments.

I don't think he would be a star at all. Heurtel is basically a less athletic version of Dragic (but it's not a big difference athletically).......

But Heurtel is a way better shooter than Dragic is. Which is absolutely vital for a point guard in EuroLeague. And Huertel always starts to struggle every time the playoffs start, because in more intense physicality and defense, that kind of game does not work as well.

I think Dragic would be Heurtel with a worse jumper.

[UcanUwill]

I still think he would find his way to be a star, but man does his shooting always disappears in FIBA tournaments.

I don't think he would be a star at all. Heurtel is basically a less athletic version of Dragic (but it's not a big difference athletically).......

But Heurtel is a way better shooter than Dragic is. Which is absolutely vital for a point guard in EuroLeague. And Huertel always starts to struggle every time the playoffs start, because in more intense physicality and defense, that kind of game does not work as well.

I think Dragic would be Heurtel with a worse jumper.

Dragic is way faster and much better finisher. No Euroleague middle of the pack player could average 20 in the NBA. YOu really underestimating Dragic's ability to score. Sure he is way better suited for more wide open NBA game, but that talent level should stand out anywhere, especially at such a worse level like Euroleague.

[Bob8]

When he has the ball in ahlf court, he always relies on the screen, lacks any Isolation skill at halfcourt. That is the main negative of his game. Another big takeaway is just how ordinary Dragic looks. Most of the time, they dont even try to run plays through him, he just stands in the corner.

Remember that debate we had here about Dragic before? Myself and some others here said he would be nothing more than an average player in EuroLeague. We took a ton of heat for that from NBA fans. but reality is reality. He's a lot like Giannis and Rubio - totally needs NBA rules and reffing to be effective.

I almost lost slovenian citizenship because of that debate.

[SportsGuy8]

Prime Derrick Rose and Allen Iverson also heavily struggled in FIBA bball. It's MUCH harder to penetrate compared to the NBA, so penetrating guards almost always have major problems.

It's also part of the reason why everyone's underrating Doncic's penetrating abilities right now. I'm not saying he's going to be great at it in the NBA, but he's surely going to look better ...

This is something that's hard to understand for anyone who's not familiar enough with both FIBA and NBA. Basic common sense tells us that it should be harder in the NBA, because defenders are much more athletic and also longer, but that's just not the case, mostly because of the rules. NBA rules benefit penetrating players so much that no amount of defenders' athleticism can truly overcome it.

[burek3]

And the extra space. Longer & wider court. Only 0.7m by 0.2m longer/wider, but still, Doncic needs only 10cm extra to get the pass through

[Bob8]

And the extra space. Longer & wider court. Only 0.7m by 0.2m longer/wider, but still, Doncic needs only 10cm extra to get the pass through

And we must not forget how "friendly" are many Nba regular season games. Friendly between Croatia and Slovenia had intensity of Nba playoff game. And we all know how many playoff games had Dragic played in Nba.

Doncic is better shooter, better passer and better rebounder than Dragic at this moment.

[SportsGuy8]

NBA teams only truly playing hard in the playoffs and not taking the regular season seriously is one of the biggest misconceptions European basketball fans have about NBA. Sure, due to the number of games each individual game may not be as important as regular season games in Europe, for example, but that doesn't mean they treat it like meaningless friendlies, far from it.

It's just that there's little time to actually game plan and prepare for each game, and there are various back-to-back situations when players just don't have that much energy. But overall I assure you that they're trying and playing really hard, at least most of them.

So basically, by repeating this you're not that much different than those American fans that you hate so much who keep throwing out various erroneous things about European basketball, or in this thread/case Doncic ...

Just something to think about.

[Bob8]

NBA teams only truly playing hard in the playoffs and not taking the regular season seriously is one of the biggest misconceptions European basketball fans have about NBA. Sure, due to the number of games each individual game may not be as important as regular season games in Europe, for example, but that doesn't mean they treat it like meaningless friendlies, far from it.

It's just that there's little time to actually game plan and prepare for each game, and there are various back-to-back situations when players just don't have that much energy. But overall I assure you that they're trying and playing really hard, at least most of them.

So basically, by repeating this you're not that much different than those American fans that you hate so much who keep throwing out various erroneous things about European basketball, or in this thread/case Doncic ...

Just something to think about.

Is this really 100% true? What about teams that have no chance to qualify to playoffs? What about teams, which tank by purpose? What about games with 20+ points difference? Why scores in regular season is higher than in playoffs? Is 240 points scored really only because of the rules and players quality or level of defense has something in that?What about players who don't even try to play in defense but are superstars? Why do you think rules so much favor attackers? Because they want to have equal matches or because only show matters?

Nba is far the best league in the world. But sports motives are many times behind show and money. Nothing wrong with that, but no one will persuade me that having every day triple double or making 60 points against the best athletes in world is possible if everyone is playing 100% in defense.

[SportsGuy8]

The problem is that you're highly exaggerating it. For the most part, teams only tank in April, some start in March, and even then the "tanking" isn't really tanking per-se. GMs and/or coaches tank, by shutting down certain players and playing rookies more, but players still try to win most of the time. Most players have way too much ego for a full intentional tank ...

So what if 20+ points differences happen? Ever heard of variance? Not even mentioning that quite often, some teams are just simply that much better. Are you going to say that such results don't happen in Europe/FIBA? What about Team USA and Spain, beating most opponents with that margin. Was it because their opponents didn't play hard enough? Why the double standard?

As for NBA stars not trying on defense:

[Bob8]

What double standards? 116.5 avg. per game seems crazy high to me. But o.k GS are special. But then you have Denver with 111.7 and only one team under 100. In Euroleague only 5 teams had over 80 points per game and doing that against unathletic scrubs. If very mediocre teams in Nba are capable of making 105+ points avg. against the best athletes in the world, something has to be wrong with defenses and with argument how Doncic won't be able to play in Nba, because of his bad defense, too.

[SportsGuy8]

CSKA averaged 87.5, which means 105 per48.
Real Madrid 85.3 >>> 102.4
Efes 82 >>> 98.4
Baskonia same
...

CSKA & Real are 2 teams that play in somewhat similar fashion as most of the NBA plays nowadays. Their numbers aren't THAT far off when you consider that NBA has better players and rules that highly benefit them on offense. It's not that they're not TRYING on defense, it's that the rules make it that much harder to defend.

Actually, average teams in NBA average exactly the same as CSKA.

Now go look at how much NBA teams scored from 96 - 04. Games were getting extremely ugly so the league tried and succeeded by implementing rules that highly benefited offensive players. You really think the players played that much harder during those 96 - 04 years and then suddenly the whole league decided they're going to stop trying on defense? Or is it because of the rules?

P.s.: Oh, one funny thing. During those low scoring years the sentiment around European basketball circles was the same, that NBA is entertainment, a circus show with little defense ... while Europe is where the REAL basketball is being played. It doesn't even seem to matter what the reality is, it's just a popular opinion to have in Europe.

P.p.s.: How do you explain so many European players having problems defending in the NBA? If they're used to playing super hard, much harder than Americans during regular season, shouldn't that overcome the physical disadvantages? Shouldn't they be much better defenders than those Americans who don't try hard during regular season? Defense is mostly effort after-all ... Do they suddenly become lazy the moment they step on an NBA floor?

[Bob8]

How many superstars in Nba are really great defenders? Especially pgs? If let's say Teodosic will have Harden's numbers, I know he won't, will anybody care about his bad defense?;) Players who come from Europe are mostly role players and because of that their defense in more under scrutiny. And when we're comparing this stats we should know that defenders in Euroleague are supposedly untalented and unathletic scrubs and in Nba athletic and long Supermen.

[Wildlinger]

Another big takeaway is just how ordinary Dragic looks. Most of the time, they dont even try to run plays through him, he just stands in the corner.

Remember that debate we had here about Dragic before? Myself and some others here said he would be nothing more than an average player in EuroLeague. We took a ton of heat for that from NBA fans. but reality is reality. He's a lot like Giannis and Rubio - totally needs NBA rules and reffing to be effective.

Do games like this have any bearing or meaning at all? I remember Nick Calathes, at age 20, in his first game with Greek senior NT, had almost a triple double in the first half

A few days ago you were clearly arguing that Doncic’s friendly game stats don’t matter at all, or better yet don’t “have any bearing”. Now you’re trying to argue that Dragic is overrated based on one single friendly game which he pretty much half-assed. So why should friendly games count when we’re talking about Dragic, if they don’t count when we’re talking about Doncic? Ever heard of consistency? You should try it sometimes.

Also, would you mind explaining to me how come Dragic who according to you can’t play FIBA basketball, already made an All-Tournament team under FIBA rules? That was when he single-handedly eliminated Greeks from the competition, so I'm sure you remember that game. If not, let me remind you. That was the game where he completely owned an NBA scrub like Spanoulis on both sides of the floor, hanging 28, 5 and 4 on him and his team. Again, under FIBA rules and in FIBA tournament playoffs. That’s when national teams play the hardest defense and they obviously couldn’t stop Dragic.

He was also the 2nd best scorer and the 2nd most efficient point guard at the last world cup. Dragic has been really good throughout his FIBA career and the numbers clearly show that. That's if we're dealing with facts of course and not just talking out of our collective asses.

FIBA basketball naturally favors the defensive side of the game, but talent is talent wherever it plays. Dragic is good in the NBA and he's good in FIBA. He would easily be the best player in Euroleague, after all he’s clearly better than all Euroleague MVPs. The problem with Rubio and Giannis is that they still can’t shoot, but that’s not the case with Dragic. He just finished another season where he shot over 40% from three (42.7% on pull up threes).

You can't make certain NBA busts like Spanoulis look better just by trashing superior players who proved themselves in the toughest basketball competition there is. Many so called “euro legends” completely failed in the NBA, simply because they couldn’t handle the talent level. Dragic didn’t. Get over it. Nobody is going to take you seriously if you’re going to argue that Sergio Llull, Nando de Colo, Nemanja Bjelica, Segio Rodriguez or Vassilis Spanoullis (last 5 Euroleague MVPs) are better than Dragic… or Giannis… or Rubio… and eventually Doncic as well.

EDIT: Actually, based on this comment you made later…

I think Dragic would be Heurtel with a worse jumper.

…I really don’t know why I even took the time to respond. I read it after I posted this and now it’s clear to me that you’re just trolling or have never watched a single NBA game.

[Wildlinger]

Doncic is better shooter, better passer and better rebounder than Dragic at this moment.

…and this is why I get a good laugh every time I visit a Doncic thread. Rebounding aside, since Doncic is a few inches taller than Dragic and will probably play a different position in NBA. If that statement is actually true than you’re claiming that Doncic is a better player than Dragic. Hoopshype just posted their predictions for 17-18 top 30 NBA point guards. They ranked Dragic at #10.

http://hoopshype.com/2017/08/04/we-have-projected-the-top-30-point-guards-for-2017-18/

Point guard position is currently the most stacked in the league and it's never been as competitive as it is now. Top 14-15 point guards could’ve been All-Stars if they played in a different era or a different conference. Are you seriously arguing that Doncic is already better than a top 10 point guard in the NBA? This thread is wonderful… in a really bad way.

[Stackey]

Of course Doncic is better than Dragic. You can actually watch them together in the Slovenian team, they look like Smush Parker and Kobe and Doncic isn't the Smush guy.

[Bob8]

Doncic is better shooter, better passer and better rebounder than Dragic at this moment.

…and this is why I get a good laugh every time I visit a Doncic thread on RealGM. Rebounding aside, since Doncic is a few inches taller than Dragic and will probably play a different position in NBA. If that statement is actually true than you’re claiming that Doncic is a better player than Dragic. Hoopshype just posted their predictions for 17-18 top 30 NBA point guards. They ranked Dragic at #10.

http://hoopshype.com/2017/08/04/we-have-projected-the-top-30-point-guards-for-2017-18/

Point guard position is currently the most stacked in the league, maybe even ever. Top 14-15 point guards could’ve been All-Stars if they played in a different era or a different conference. Are you seriously arguing that Doncic is already better than a top 10 point guard in the NBA? This thread is wonderful… in a really bad way.

He has clearly better shot, better basketball IQ, is better rebounder and is better passer.His ceiling is much higher. But he's 18 years old, doesn't have developed some aspects of his game, he's physically not yet there and he of course lacks consistency and experience.

Dragic didn't do anything in Fiba basketball, clubs or national team, only bright spot is Eurobasket in Slovenia. He had 1 more good WC but Slovenia didn't do anything, so...

We will see how Doncic and Dragic will play in Eurobasket. But it will be very funny to see if Doncic will be better than top 10 Nba point guard.

[Wildlinger]

Doncic is better shooter, better passer and better rebounder than Dragic at this moment.

…and this is why I get a good laugh every time I visit a Doncic thread on RealGM. Rebounding aside, since Doncic is a few inches taller than Dragic and will probably play a different position in NBA. If that statement is actually true than you’re claiming that Doncic is a better player than Dragic. Hoopshype just posted their predictions for 17-18 top 30 NBA point guards. They ranked Dragic at #10.

http://hoopshype.com/2017/08/04/we-have-projected-the-top-30-point-guards-for-2017-18/

Point guard position is currently the most stacked in the league, maybe even ever. Top 14-15 point guards could’ve been All-Stars if they played in a different era or a different conference. Are you seriously arguing that Doncic is already better than a top 10 point guard in the NBA? This thread is wonderful… in a really bad way.

He has clearly better shot, better basketball IQ, is better rebounder and is better passer.His ceiling is much higher. But he's 18 years old, doesn't have developed some aspects of his game, he's physically not yet there and he of course lacks consistency and experience.

Dragic didn't do anything in Fiba basketball, clubs or national team, only bright spot is Eurobasket in Slovenia. He had 1 more good WC but Slovenia didn't do anything, so...

We will see how Doncic and Dragic will play in Eurobasket. But it will be very funny to see if Doncic will be better than top 10 Nba point guard.

Doncic clearly has a higher ceiling than Dragic. We’re talking about him possibly being a generational talent after all. But that’s not the argument you were making. You’re claiming that he’s already better than a top 10 point guard in the league and that is why many fans can’t take the Doncic hyperbole seriously.

Dragic’s stats last season matched his All-NBA season. Are you really arguing that Doncic could start for Miami Heat now and finish the season with better numbers? Why, because he had a few really good meaningless friendly games?

Nobody would make that claim about any of the top prospects coming to the league this year, so making that claim with a player more than a year younger just sounds silly. Just as silly as Gallinari or Turkoglu comparisons sound when some reporters are talking about Doncic.

And one Eurobasket won’t really change that.

[Bob8]

Double post.

[tria]

He has clearly better shot, better basketball IQ, is better rebounder and is better passer.His ceiling is much higher. But he's 18 years old, he's physically not yet there and he of course lacks consistency and experience.

Dragic didn't do anything in Fiba basketball, clubs or national team, only bright spot is Eurobasket in Slovenia. He had 1 more good WC but Slovenia didn't do anything, so...

We will see how Doncic and Dragic will play in Eurobasket. But it will be very funny to see if Doncic will be better than top 10 Nba point guard.

Dear me, Slovenian team lead by Dragic with this AMAZING roster of renown euroleague stars playing in elite clubs
http://www.fiba.basketball/basketballworldcup/2014/Slovenia#|tab=roster
only came to quarterfinals and then lost to USA. Clearly it shows that Dragic cannot achieve anything on FIBA tournaments. Also few meaningless preparation games clearly tell that. Man when did you last time see star player go out 100% on preparation games? When it comes to Dragic specifically he always starts his season badly and he needs several games to get himself in form. Last year he didn't play for national team and it showed, when he started regular NBA season slowly. Dragic on level on Huertel, i mean come on. Why is he not in NBA but Dragic is? Because Dragic was lucky and puts out 20/6/4 on scoreboard because other players and Riley just like his accent and allowed him to do it? And why is Dragic even part of discussion here?


Regarding Doncic. Someone said he will not do anything in NBA because no one from Europe on his position hasn't done anything yet. Well noone of his age played role he is playing and achived simmilar impact. Never. Well just maybe he will be the first one to become a star on his position in NBA. Will he? Maybe. Maybe not. He has flaws too. But again not one player usually thrown around here, like Rubio or Hezonja, came close to his production and impact, that you can actually compare him with at this stage. Hezonja was worse while beeing 2 years older. Rubio was also worse while older. How are they objective comparison. If noone did it yet it doesn't mean it is impossible.
Will he stop improving and stay the same level, that is aleady impact Eurolague player? Also possible, peaked early will we say. All roads are open. Point that stays and cannot be denied is that Doncic is prospect on a level not seen from Europe in last 20 years and that is not just my opinion but of several experts, last one to say it was Croatian NT Coach.
How does he compare with American prospects i have honestly no idea, never followed any and cannot evaluate highschool players so i'm not willing or able to say if he is no.1 pick as i would be talking out of my ass.