2020 NBA Draft II

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1261 » by karkinos » Thu Jul 9, 2020 8:16 pm

yahboi617 wrote:Onyeka Ongunwu seems similar, would y'all agree?

he's a high lottery pick
nobody is sleeping on him
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1262 » by getrichordie » Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:36 am

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1263 » by hugepatsfan » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:48 pm

Where do people see Kira Lewis and Patrick Williams going? Those are my two favorite prospects for Boston. Right now we are projected to get #17 for the MEM pick. I'm really hoping that NO wins the 8 seed from Memphis that way the pick moves up to #14 and NO falls back. I think jumping NO and ORL in this case should be able to get us Kira Lewis. I think he could be there even if we stay at #17 but I'd like to move up a bit.

How high do people think Boston could get for #26, #30, Grant Williams and our 2021 1st rounder? Am I way off thinking that can be consolidated down to a pick in the range for Patrick Williams? I'm thinking it would be #26, #30 for a pick in the early 20s and then that pick, Grant Williams and our 2021 1st rounder for a mid teens pick to get Pat Williams.

Am I way off in value? I've seen some people put Williams at #11 to SA but I've also seen a lot of mocks with him going to us at #17. So it seems realistic that a mid teens pick could land him. Am I realistic with #26/#30/Grant Williams/2021 1st getting us in that range?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1264 » by yahboi617 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:30 am

hugepatsfan wrote:Where do people see Kira Lewis and Patrick Williams going? Those are my two favorite prospects for Boston. Right now we are projected to get #17 for the MEM pick. I'm really hoping that NO wins the 8 seed from Memphis that way the pick moves up to #14 and NO falls back. I think jumping NO and ORL in this case should be able to get us Kira Lewis. I think he could be there even if we stay at #17 but I'd like to move up a bit.

How high do people think Boston could get for #26, #30, Grant Williams and our 2021 1st rounder? Am I way off thinking that can be consolidated down to a pick in the range for Patrick Williams? I'm thinking it would be #26, #30 for a pick in the early 20s and then that pick, Grant Williams and our 2021 1st rounder for a mid teens pick to get Pat Williams.

Am I way off in value? I've seen some people put Williams at #11 to SA but I've also seen a lot of mocks with him going to us at #17. So it seems realistic that a mid teens pick could land him. Am I realistic with #26/#30/Grant Williams/2021 1st getting us in that range?

I'm with you on Kira lewis, pat williams is a lot like vassel but bigger but my guy is Sadiq bey for the celts. Less of an athlete but a great shooter and defensively sound while not a stopper. Trading 26, 30 and 2021 1st should get you into late lottery or at least high enough to double dip. I would hate to see grant get traded (an I don't think he will) because of his great defense and shooting post 0/23 were he shot 35%. If we needed to add a player I think Romeo or rob would get the job done
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1265 » by yahboi617 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:32 am

karkinos wrote:
yahboi617 wrote:Onyeka Ongunwu seems similar, would y'all agree?

he's a high lottery pick
nobody is sleeping on him

Not saying onyeka is but WCJ is in my book as a defender and floor spacer. OO doesn't seem like the floor spacer but seems like he would provide the same defense
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1266 » by hugepatsfan » Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:51 pm

yahboi617 wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:Where do people see Kira Lewis and Patrick Williams going? Those are my two favorite prospects for Boston. Right now we are projected to get #17 for the MEM pick. I'm really hoping that NO wins the 8 seed from Memphis that way the pick moves up to #14 and NO falls back. I think jumping NO and ORL in this case should be able to get us Kira Lewis. I think he could be there even if we stay at #17 but I'd like to move up a bit.

How high do people think Boston could get for #26, #30, Grant Williams and our 2021 1st rounder? Am I way off thinking that can be consolidated down to a pick in the range for Patrick Williams? I'm thinking it would be #26, #30 for a pick in the early 20s and then that pick, Grant Williams and our 2021 1st rounder for a mid teens pick to get Pat Williams.

Am I way off in value? I've seen some people put Williams at #11 to SA but I've also seen a lot of mocks with him going to us at #17. So it seems realistic that a mid teens pick could land him. Am I realistic with #26/#30/Grant Williams/2021 1st getting us in that range?

I'm with you on Kira lewis, pat williams is a lot like vassel but bigger but my guy is Sadiq bey for the celts. Less of an athlete but a great shooter and defensively sound while not a stopper. Trading 26, 30 and 2021 1st should get you into late lottery or at least high enough to double dip. I would hate to see grant get traded (an I don't think he will) because of his great defense and shooting post 0/23 were he shot 35%. If we needed to add a player I think Romeo or rob would get the job done


I like Grant Williams too. I thought he played really well on defense in a variety of assignments. His overall offense was trash but he has that 0-21 start from 3 which seemed so uncharacteristically bad. Shot 35% from 3 the rest of the way which is more in line with what the college projections were, so I'm inclined to think that will be more what he is going forward like you said. With his passing/feel for the game he reminds me of the San Antonio Spurs late career version of Boris Diaw. That and his strong multi position defense is a nice bench player.

I think Pat Williams is a PF, not a SF though. So that created a bit of a log jam with Grant. Because I'm assuming Hayward is back and indications are they want to extend him (though we'll see how COVID the financials of that). So that means you have the Kemba/Brown/Hayward/Tatum starting group and if both P and G Williams are best at the 4, it's crowded. So that's why I was willing to include him. Because as much as I do like him, I see a limited ceiling.

I'm not very high on Bey, especially vs P Williams. I think Bey struggles to do anything but shoot. I think he's too much of a tweener on defense - not quick enough for 3s, not strong enough for 4s. I don't think he attacks closeouts the way Pat Williams does and Williams also has more handles IMO. I just don't see the upside to move up for with Bey and give up multiple players/picks. Wouldn't hate him at #17 but I wouldn't be trying to move up for him if we get my dream pick of Kira Lewis the way I would with Pat Williams.

Langford I think we took ahead of Grant for a reason. I really liked the defense he showed when he played and then on offense I think the game projects. It's tough because he was always a pure on ball guy so they're trying to get him to adjust to being more off ball. But I think once he gets those nuances down he'll be a nice bench scorer on the wing for us. It takes time to adjust, but guys can more easily learn to playing off the ball than on. And then they have those on ball skills to fall back on when plays break down.

R. Williams fits more of a positional need for us than G Williams, especially in this scenario where we're moving up for P Williams like I had. I also think the extra year on G's contract made him more valuable to another team in this trade scenario so it worked out on that end too.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1267 » by Jamaaliver » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:18 pm

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2. Killian Hayes (Ratiopharm Ulm, PG, 2001)
Spoiler:
Image

Killian Hayes chose to sit out the resumption of German BBL play, but we've seen enough in terms of execution, production and improvement.

Ranking him in the top three means betting that his three-point-shooting numbers will approach or surpass the 35.0 percent mark. He's still only at 29.4 percent, but for an 18-year-old, the eye test, a 41.4 percent pull-up jumper, an 87.6 free-throw percentage and an uptick in threes made per game (1.5 3PTM per 40) suggest it's a bet worth making.

Otherwise, he's a convincing passer (6.2 assists per game in Eurocup) and advanced pick-and-roll ball-handler capable of manipulating defenses with his eyes and hesitation. He made exciting strides as a scorer with his shot creation and footwork for separating, as well as his finishing package of floaters and layups in the lane.

3. Onyeka Okongwu (USC, C, Freshman)
Spoiler:
Image

Onyeka Okongwu's floor may be his most appealing selling point. There's a high likelihood of his elite finishing, shot-blocking and post play translating based on his athleticism, production (16.2 points and 2.7 blocks per game) and skill level inside 12 feet.

At worst, with no improvement from here on out, he should still reach starter status for the right team by providing a high-percentage paint target and rim protection. But I'm buying the flashes of lefty hooks, face-up Eurosteps and mid-range touch.

He's going to be more than a dunker, capable of creating his own shot around the key and making mid-range jumpers, assuming the 15-of-35 jumpers and 72.0 percent free-throw mark at USC were real.

He might not have a path toward superstardom without a three-point shot or the ability to handle. But scouts have mentioned Derrick Favors as a likely outcome for Okongwu, which, in this draft, may be worthy of a top-three selection if it's close to a lock.

5. Obi Toppin (Dayton, PF/C, Sophomore)
Spoiler:
Image

There is general agreement among scouts and evaluators that Obi Toppin will be a productive NBA pro. The debate focuses on how much his defensive limitations will neutralize his scoring when assessing his value.

In this particular draft, which is filled with uncertainty, Toppin's near-guaranteed offense is worth overvaluing. He just averaged 20.0 points on 63.3 percent shooting with elite leaping ability and an expanding skill set that suggests his finishing, post play and touch should translate.

He's slow to make defensive reads, and he doesn't move well laterally away from the basket. But how much will that matter if Toppin is averaging an efficient 20 points? The strong chance of him putting up those types of numbers seems to outweigh the likelihood of him struggling on defense. His future team will just want to prioritize playing him between a wing stopper and an effective rim protector.

6. Deni Avdija (Israel, SF/PF, 2001)
Spoiler:
Image

One of the few eligible prospects back in action, Deni Avdija is using these final games to strengthen his case.

In three Israeli BSL appearances over the past two weeks, it's looked easy for the 19-year-old combo forward against lower-level competition. He's averaged 17.3 points, 6.3 boards and 3.0 assists on 7-of-15 shooting from three.

Avdija looks visibly stronger and immediately stands out physically despite his age. He's had some impressive moments handling the ball in transition or blowing by defenders for layups. And since his return, his jump shot and free throws (11-of-16) have fallen.

Some scouts still question his level of shot creation and history of shooting inconsistency, concerns that lower his perceived trajectory and lead to him topping out as a role player.

But Avdija appears to have one of the draft's higher floors based on his positional tools and versatility to dribble, finish, shot-make and pass.

8. Isaac Okoro (Auburn, SF/PF, Freshman)
Spoiler:
Image

Isaac Okoro hasn't moved much on our board since opening night, falling into our safe category of prospects who are easy to picture fitting and adding value to any lineup.

In terms of what teams can bank on translating, Okoro, 6'6", 225 pounds, already possesses a convincing mix of power, quickness and focus for defense and guarding multiple positions. He matched up with bigs, wings and guards all season, showing the ability to wall up inside and smother around the perimeter.

He's further behind offensively, but he still shot 60.7 percent inside the arc, taking quality shots and converting them as a driver, cutter, finisher and post player. And though his 2.0 assists per game don't look exciting, untapped playmaking potential shined off his occasional drive-and-kicks and pick-and-roll ball-handling possessions.

The big questions revolve around his ceiling: How will his limited shot creation and below-average shooting affect his upside, and to what degree can he improve in those areas?

9. Devin Vassell (Florida State, SF, Sophomore)
Spoiler:
Image

There is a reasonable path to plus shooting and elite defense for Devin Vassell, and the likelihood of him reaching both creates a high floor.

With an advantageous high release, he shot over 40 percent from three in both seasons at Florida State. And while his 2.8 percent steal rate and 4.1 block percentage are impressive, they still undersell his IQ for anticipating and athleticism for playmaking.

He also made promising strides this season with his pull-up game, though he didn't convert one isolation drive to the basket all season, a telling stat that highlights his limited off-the-dribble game.

12. Patrick Williams (Florida State, SF/PF, Freshman)
Spoiler:
Image

Williams' age (18), physical tools (6'8" and 225 lbs) and skill versatility create an enticing potential trajectory. He's the draft's youngest NCAA prospect and has a strong, power forward's body and the ability to hit open threes, shoot off the dribble, run pick-and-rolls and finish through contact. On the flip side, he's still far away offensively (9.2 points per game) and limited with his self creation. And despite playing around the perimeter, he doesn't demonstrate the quickest foot speed for guarding wings.

13. Tyrese Haliburton (Iowa State, PG/SG, Sophomore)
Spoiler:
Given the lack of obvious stars in this draft, Haliburton could get top-five looks if teams put extra value into fit. I question his scoring upside without blow-by burst or a pull-up game. But for a 6'5" guard, Haliburton's passing IQ, spot-up shooting and defensive anticipation hint at a role player and safe pick.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1268 » by jezzerinho » Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:34 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
Read on Twitter


2. Killian Hayes (Ratiopharm Ulm, PG, 2001)
Spoiler:
Image

Killian Hayes chose to sit out the resumption of German BBL play, but we've seen enough in terms of execution, production and improvement.

Ranking him in the top three means betting that his three-point-shooting numbers will approach or surpass the 35.0 percent mark. He's still only at 29.4 percent, but for an 18-year-old, the eye test, a 41.4 percent pull-up jumper, an 87.6 free-throw percentage and an uptick in threes made per game (1.5 3PTM per 40) suggest it's a bet worth making.

Otherwise, he's a convincing passer (6.2 assists per game in Eurocup) and advanced pick-and-roll ball-handler capable of manipulating defenses with his eyes and hesitation. He made exciting strides as a scorer with his shot creation and footwork for separating, as well as his finishing package of floaters and layups in the lane.

3. Onyeka Okongwu (USC, C, Freshman)
Spoiler:
Image

Onyeka Okongwu's floor may be his most appealing selling point. There's a high likelihood of his elite finishing, shot-blocking and post play translating based on his athleticism, production (16.2 points and 2.7 blocks per game) and skill level inside 12 feet.

At worst, with no improvement from here on out, he should still reach starter status for the right team by providing a high-percentage paint target and rim protection. But I'm buying the flashes of lefty hooks, face-up Eurosteps and mid-range touch.

He's going to be more than a dunker, capable of creating his own shot around the key and making mid-range jumpers, assuming the 15-of-35 jumpers and 72.0 percent free-throw mark at USC were real.

He might not have a path toward superstardom without a three-point shot or the ability to handle. But scouts have mentioned Derrick Favors as a likely outcome for Okongwu, which, in this draft, may be worthy of a top-three selection if it's close to a lock.

5. Obi Toppin (Dayton, PF/C, Sophomore)
Spoiler:
Image

There is general agreement among scouts and evaluators that Obi Toppin will be a productive NBA pro. The debate focuses on how much his defensive limitations will neutralize his scoring when assessing his value.

In this particular draft, which is filled with uncertainty, Toppin's near-guaranteed offense is worth overvaluing. He just averaged 20.0 points on 63.3 percent shooting with elite leaping ability and an expanding skill set that suggests his finishing, post play and touch should translate.

He's slow to make defensive reads, and he doesn't move well laterally away from the basket. But how much will that matter if Toppin is averaging an efficient 20 points? The strong chance of him putting up those types of numbers seems to outweigh the likelihood of him struggling on defense. His future team will just want to prioritize playing him between a wing stopper and an effective rim protector.

6. Deni Avdija (Israel, SF/PF, 2001)
Spoiler:
Image

One of the few eligible prospects back in action, Deni Avdija is using these final games to strengthen his case.

In three Israeli BSL appearances over the past two weeks, it's looked easy for the 19-year-old combo forward against lower-level competition. He's averaged 17.3 points, 6.3 boards and 3.0 assists on 7-of-15 shooting from three.

Avdija looks visibly stronger and immediately stands out physically despite his age. He's had some impressive moments handling the ball in transition or blowing by defenders for layups. And since his return, his jump shot and free throws (11-of-16) have fallen.

Some scouts still question his level of shot creation and history of shooting inconsistency, concerns that lower his perceived trajectory and lead to him topping out as a role player.

But Avdija appears to have one of the draft's higher floors based on his positional tools and versatility to dribble, finish, shot-make and pass.

8. Isaac Okoro (Auburn, SF/PF, Freshman)
Spoiler:
Image

Isaac Okoro hasn't moved much on our board since opening night, falling into our safe category of prospects who are easy to picture fitting and adding value to any lineup.

In terms of what teams can bank on translating, Okoro, 6'6", 225 pounds, already possesses a convincing mix of power, quickness and focus for defense and guarding multiple positions. He matched up with bigs, wings and guards all season, showing the ability to wall up inside and smother around the perimeter.

He's further behind offensively, but he still shot 60.7 percent inside the arc, taking quality shots and converting them as a driver, cutter, finisher and post player. And though his 2.0 assists per game don't look exciting, untapped playmaking potential shined off his occasional drive-and-kicks and pick-and-roll ball-handling possessions.

The big questions revolve around his ceiling: How will his limited shot creation and below-average shooting affect his upside, and to what degree can he improve in those areas?

9. Devin Vassell (Florida State, SF, Sophomore)
Spoiler:
Image

There is a reasonable path to plus shooting and elite defense for Devin Vassell, and the likelihood of him reaching both creates a high floor.

With an advantageous high release, he shot over 40 percent from three in both seasons at Florida State. And while his 2.8 percent steal rate and 4.1 block percentage are impressive, they still undersell his IQ for anticipating and athleticism for playmaking.

He also made promising strides this season with his pull-up game, though he didn't convert one isolation drive to the basket all season, a telling stat that highlights his limited off-the-dribble game.

12. Patrick Williams (Florida State, SF/PF, Freshman)
Spoiler:
Image

Williams' age (18), physical tools (6'8" and 225 lbs) and skill versatility create an enticing potential trajectory. He's the draft's youngest NCAA prospect and has a strong, power forward's body and the ability to hit open threes, shoot off the dribble, run pick-and-rolls and finish through contact. On the flip side, he's still far away offensively (9.2 points per game) and limited with his self creation. And despite playing around the perimeter, he doesn't demonstrate the quickest foot speed for guarding wings.

13. Tyrese Haliburton (Iowa State, PG/SG, Sophomore)
Spoiler:
Given the lack of obvious stars in this draft, Haliburton could get top-five looks if teams put extra value into fit. I question his scoring upside without blow-by burst or a pull-up game. But for a 6'5" guard, Haliburton's passing IQ, spot-up shooting and defensive anticipation hint at a role player and safe pick.


Love to see guys going against the grain in what is a totally imperfect science. Could argue with plenty of choices but you can see a logic in his tiers.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1269 » by clyde21 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:25 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:Where do people see Kira Lewis and Patrick Williams going? Those are my two favorite prospects for Boston. Right now we are projected to get #17 for the MEM pick. I'm really hoping that NO wins the 8 seed from Memphis that way the pick moves up to #14 and NO falls back. I think jumping NO and ORL in this case should be able to get us Kira Lewis. I think he could be there even if we stay at #17 but I'd like to move up a bit.

How high do people think Boston could get for #26, #30, Grant Williams and our 2021 1st rounder? Am I way off thinking that can be consolidated down to a pick in the range for Patrick Williams? I'm thinking it would be #26, #30 for a pick in the early 20s and then that pick, Grant Williams and our 2021 1st rounder for a mid teens pick to get Pat Williams.

Am I way off in value? I've seen some people put Williams at #11 to SA but I've also seen a lot of mocks with him going to us at #17. So it seems realistic that a mid teens pick could land him. Am I realistic with #26/#30/Grant Williams/2021 1st getting us in that range?


where does Kira fit in with Boston with Kemba, Smart, Brown, Langford, Edwards and Waters already on the roster?

i think Boston takes Poku if he's there at 17 for sure
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1270 » by Stillwater » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:39 pm

clyde21 wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:Where do people see Kira Lewis and Patrick Williams going? Those are my two favorite prospects for Boston. Right now we are projected to get #17 for the MEM pick. I'm really hoping that NO wins the 8 seed from Memphis that way the pick moves up to #14 and NO falls back. I think jumping NO and ORL in this case should be able to get us Kira Lewis. I think he could be there even if we stay at #17 but I'd like to move up a bit.

How high do people think Boston could get for #26, #30, Grant Williams and our 2021 1st rounder? Am I way off thinking that can be consolidated down to a pick in the range for Patrick Williams? I'm thinking it would be #26, #30 for a pick in the early 20s and then that pick, Grant Williams and our 2021 1st rounder for a mid teens pick to get Pat Williams.

Am I way off in value? I've seen some people put Williams at #11 to SA but I've also seen a lot of mocks with him going to us at #17. So it seems realistic that a mid teens pick could land him. Am I realistic with #26/#30/Grant Williams/2021 1st getting us in that range?


where does Kira fit in with Boston with Kemba, Smart, Brown, Langford, Edwards and Waters already on the roster?

i think Boston takes Poku if he's there at 17 for sure

I can see them taking a guard late first not at 15-18 unless a really good one like Kira slides which he won't .But I also think the guy you mention here is maybe too far off as a plug in to go that high to them and more likely a target of teams farther away from contending.
But given the lack of centers in this draft with upside they might anyway.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1271 » by hugepatsfan » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:56 pm

clyde21 wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:Where do people see Kira Lewis and Patrick Williams going? Those are my two favorite prospects for Boston. Right now we are projected to get #17 for the MEM pick. I'm really hoping that NO wins the 8 seed from Memphis that way the pick moves up to #14 and NO falls back. I think jumping NO and ORL in this case should be able to get us Kira Lewis. I think he could be there even if we stay at #17 but I'd like to move up a bit.

How high do people think Boston could get for #26, #30, Grant Williams and our 2021 1st rounder? Am I way off thinking that can be consolidated down to a pick in the range for Patrick Williams? I'm thinking it would be #26, #30 for a pick in the early 20s and then that pick, Grant Williams and our 2021 1st rounder for a mid teens pick to get Pat Williams.

Am I way off in value? I've seen some people put Williams at #11 to SA but I've also seen a lot of mocks with him going to us at #17. So it seems realistic that a mid teens pick could land him. Am I realistic with #26/#30/Grant Williams/2021 1st getting us in that range?


where does Kira fit in with Boston with Kemba, Smart, Brown, Langford, Edwards and Waters already on the roster?

i think Boston takes Poku if he's there at 17 for sure


Celtics main rotation this year has been:

Kemba / Brad Wanamaker
Brown / Smart
Hayward / Semi Ojeleye
Tatum / Grant Williams
Theis / Kanter / Robert Williams

The two weakest players there are Wanamaker and Ojeleye. Shot creation off the bench has been our biggest weakness this year, and it's been particularly magnified by the fact that for the vast majority of games one of Kemba/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Smart have been out so there's more pressure on the bench. Wanamaker is an RFA but unlikely to be tendered with how many players we already have under contract and then 3 1st round picks. Kira Lewis Jr. would take that spot. Stevens' system has bever featured a "true point guard". He's all about a quick, speedy point guard who can get in the paint off the P&R. Kira Lewis to me is a PERFECT system fit here. He's a guy who can come in and address that shot creation off the bench in a limited role to start. But then down the line, by the end of his rookie deal, he's ready to step in and replace Kemba for the long term. And again, love the upside and system fit to where I think that'd be a home run pick for us.

The hope for Langford is that he steps up and takes Ojeleye's minutes, adding some scoring ability. He's too small to full time defend 3s, so if they ever really ran that "2nd unit out" together at the same time it would be Smart kicking down to guard 3s, which isn't a problem at all for him - nice to have a multi position all NBA caliber defender on the bench to help match up.

You mention Edwards and Waters. They were 2nd round picks. Edwards got some NBA time and wasn't good. Waters played well in the GLeague but it's the GLeague, and he's a 2-way restricted free agent this year so we'd likely have to give him an NBA deal to keep him. Neither of them should factor into a rotation role on paper to start the year and definitely shouldn't impact how we use our mid 1st round pick. Both seem to be roster-able players to helpfully develop but 3rd unit guys for now at least.

Poku is a tough evaluation. They don't have any history of taking foreign players, other than one year where they specifically were saving cap space to pursue a Horford/Durant FA pairing. Stevens like to use small ball lineups, i.e. the Tatum/Hayward pairing at SF/PF. Is Poku a 4 in the NBA? Is he a stretch 5? It's just a tough evaluation. IDK how to gauge what they think of him. But I imagine an upside play like that would be in the discussion. I prefer Kira Lewis because I think that upside is more projectable in the system.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1272 » by yahboi617 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:15 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:
yahboi617 wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:Where do people see Kira Lewis and Patrick Williams going? Those are my two favorite prospects for Boston. Right now we are projected to get #17 for the MEM pick. I'm really hoping that NO wins the 8 seed from Memphis that way the pick moves up to #14 and NO falls back. I think jumping NO and ORL in this case should be able to get us Kira Lewis. I think he could be there even if we stay at #17 but I'd like to move up a bit.

How high do people think Boston could get for #26, #30, Grant Williams and our 2021 1st rounder? Am I way off thinking that can be consolidated down to a pick in the range for Patrick Williams? I'm thinking it would be #26, #30 for a pick in the early 20s and then that pick, Grant Williams and our 2021 1st rounder for a mid teens pick to get Pat Williams.

Am I way off in value? I've seen some people put Williams at #11 to SA but I've also seen a lot of mocks with him going to us at #17. So it seems realistic that a mid teens pick could land him. Am I realistic with #26/#30/Grant Williams/2021 1st getting us in that range?

I'm with you on Kira lewis, pat williams is a lot like vassel but bigger but my guy is Sadiq bey for the celts. Less of an athlete but a great shooter and defensively sound while not a stopper. Trading 26, 30 and 2021 1st should get you into late lottery or at least high enough to double dip. I would hate to see grant get traded (an I don't think he will) because of his great defense and shooting post 0/23 were he shot 35%. If we needed to add a player I think Romeo or rob would get the job done


I like Grant Williams too. I thought he played really well on defense in a variety of assignments. His overall offense was trash but he has that 0-21 start from 3 which seemed so uncharacteristically bad. Shot 35% from 3 the rest of the way which is more in line with what the college projections were, so I'm inclined to think that will be more what he is going forward like you said. With his passing/feel for the game he reminds me of the San Antonio Spurs late career version of Boris Diaw. That and his strong multi position defense is a nice bench player.

I think Pat Williams is a PF, not a SF though. So that created a bit of a log jam with Grant. Because I'm assuming Hayward is back and indications are they want to extend him (though we'll see how COVID the financials of that). So that means you have the Kemba/Brown/Hayward/Tatum starting group and if both P and G Williams are best at the 4, it's crowded. So that's why I was willing to include him. Because as much as I do like him, I see a limited ceiling.

I'm not very high on Bey, especially vs P Williams. I think Bey struggles to do anything but shoot. I think he's too much of a tweener on defense - not quick enough for 3s, not strong enough for 4s. I don't think he attacks closeouts the way Pat Williams does and Williams also has more handles IMO. I just don't see the upside to move up for with Bey and give up multiple players/picks. Wouldn't hate him at #17 but I wouldn't be trying to move up for him if we get my dream pick of Kira Lewis the way I would with Pat Williams.

Langford I think we took ahead of Grant for a reason. I really liked the defense he showed when he played and then on offense I think the game projects. It's tough because he was always a pure on ball guy so they're trying to get him to adjust to being more off ball. But I think once he gets those nuances down he'll be a nice bench scorer on the wing for us. It takes time to adjust, but guys can more easily learn to playing off the ball than on. And then they have those on ball skills to fall back on when plays break down.

R. Williams fits more of a positional need for us than G Williams, especially in this scenario where we're moving up for P Williams like I had. I also think the extra year on G's contract made him more valuable to another team in this trade scenario so it worked out on that end too.

I think Saddiq is a guy to guard 1-3 rather than 3-4, he isn't quick enough to be a shutdown guy but he is long enough to contest and make things difficult. We'll have to see if the Grizzlies make the playoffs or not because if they don't then there would be little stopping us from getting Kira and we could trade up for a SF if need be. I like langfords defense and it was suprising to see it because he was lackadaisical on that end in highschool and college but his offense worries me. He wasn't a good 3pt shooter in highschool, from what I could find he was barely over 30% in league play or in nike camps. Injuries to his thumb limited him in college and his skillset is onball like you said. I think his potential is still high, but his role on the celtics won't ever let him fulfill it. He and a1st rnd pick plus a second would get us someone like ORL or POR to double dip and we wouldn't have to give up either williams that we already have. I think at this point in the draft we are looking for role players rather than starters of the future and Bey projects to be a nba 3&D guy from the jump, which is what we need. He shoots well and we had the 29th ranked scoring bench in the league so we need guys who can hit shots off the bench. P wil is a better defensive player but he'll take some time to develop his shot, but his FT % is really encouraging. Gordon will determine a lot of this though because he will look for a multi-year extension and if he wants more than 20mil/year than I think we'll pass. If that happens it won't free up that much cap space and Bertans isn't going to push over the hump for a championship. I'd love if Gordon opts in or we can do a S%T because we need a true PF and G or P wil aren't ready for championship starter yet. It'll be interesting we gotta get to lottery order first before we really know what to expect
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1273 » by clyde21 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:34 pm

Romeo is a combo guard not really a 3 in any capacity, maybe here and there depending on match ups but that's it
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1274 » by hugepatsfan » Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:18 pm

clyde21 wrote:Romeo is a combo guard not really a 3 in any capacity, maybe here and there depending on match ups but that's it


Yeah, that's why I said it'd be Smart taking the bulk of the minutes at the 3 on the "second unit" even though it'd be Langford stepping for Ojeleye, who's the current 3. The rotation I'm envisioning is:

Walker / Kira Lewis Jr
Brown / Langford
Hayward / Smart
Tatum / Grant Williams
Theis / Kanter / Rob Williams

The reality is that the starting lineup there has 3 starting caliber SFs. It's very unlikely they'd ever line up the rtations to where that second unit actually plays together all at once. And then the Celtics have never shied away from using Smart on 3s or 4s so for the spurt minutes that they were using him and Langford as the 2/3 combination I don't think they'd have an issue.

So to your original point I think that both Lewis and Langford would coexist in our rotation that way. Heck, even if the Celtics did take Lewis at #17 I wouldn't be surprised to see them redshirt him a year and go for a vet like DJ Augustine. They have a history of that with guys like Rozier and Avery Bradley - both drafted in that range and hardly used as rookies before joining the rotation in year 2. Langford himself right now is hopefully on track for the same.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1275 » by clyde21 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:39 pm

taking Lewis 17 just so you end up moving Smart to the 3 seems pointless, Smart's way better as a combo guard who can defend a position up when need be
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1276 » by nolang1 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:46 pm

I’ve been rewatching a few players whose film I hadn’t looked at since before the season ended, and the one thing I keep coming back to is “damn Devin Vassell is good at defense.” Like if he’s 90% of Thybulle on defense while being a credible weapon as a three-point shooter, that is at minimum an extremely valuable role player. The main concern with him seems to be his weight/strength, which I’m not worried about for a few reasons: he’s basically a freshman in age and has a good frame to improve upon; he definitely plays above his weight in terms of his willingness to fight in the post; and he should be thought of as more of a backcourt player who synergizes well with bigger playmaker on offense (can score off cuts, transition, and catch-and-shoot threes while defending quicker guards).
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1277 » by hugepatsfan » Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:49 pm

yahboi617 wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:
yahboi617 wrote:I'm with you on Kira lewis, pat williams is a lot like vassel but bigger but my guy is Sadiq bey for the celts. Less of an athlete but a great shooter and defensively sound while not a stopper. Trading 26, 30 and 2021 1st should get you into late lottery or at least high enough to double dip. I would hate to see grant get traded (an I don't think he will) because of his great defense and shooting post 0/23 were he shot 35%. If we needed to add a player I think Romeo or rob would get the job done


I like Grant Williams too. I thought he played really well on defense in a variety of assignments. His overall offense was trash but he has that 0-21 start from 3 which seemed so uncharacteristically bad. Shot 35% from 3 the rest of the way which is more in line with what the college projections were, so I'm inclined to think that will be more what he is going forward like you said. With his passing/feel for the game he reminds me of the San Antonio Spurs late career version of Boris Diaw. That and his strong multi position defense is a nice bench player.

I think Pat Williams is a PF, not a SF though. So that created a bit of a log jam with Grant. Because I'm assuming Hayward is back and indications are they want to extend him (though we'll see how COVID the financials of that). So that means you have the Kemba/Brown/Hayward/Tatum starting group and if both P and G Williams are best at the 4, it's crowded. So that's why I was willing to include him. Because as much as I do like him, I see a limited ceiling.

I'm not very high on Bey, especially vs P Williams. I think Bey struggles to do anything but shoot. I think he's too much of a tweener on defense - not quick enough for 3s, not strong enough for 4s. I don't think he attacks closeouts the way Pat Williams does and Williams also has more handles IMO. I just don't see the upside to move up for with Bey and give up multiple players/picks. Wouldn't hate him at #17 but I wouldn't be trying to move up for him if we get my dream pick of Kira Lewis the way I would with Pat Williams.

Langford I think we took ahead of Grant for a reason. I really liked the defense he showed when he played and then on offense I think the game projects. It's tough because he was always a pure on ball guy so they're trying to get him to adjust to being more off ball. But I think once he gets those nuances down he'll be a nice bench scorer on the wing for us. It takes time to adjust, but guys can more easily learn to playing off the ball than on. And then they have those on ball skills to fall back on when plays break down.

R. Williams fits more of a positional need for us than G Williams, especially in this scenario where we're moving up for P Williams like I had. I also think the extra year on G's contract made him more valuable to another team in this trade scenario so it worked out on that end too.

I think Saddiq is a guy to guard 1-3 rather than 3-4, he isn't quick enough to be a shutdown guy but he is long enough to contest and make things difficult. We'll have to see if the Grizzlies make the playoffs or not because if they don't then there would be little stopping us from getting Kira and we could trade up for a SF if need be. I like langfords defense and it was suprising to see it because he was lackadaisical on that end in highschool and college but his offense worries me. He wasn't a good 3pt shooter in highschool, from what I could find he was barely over 30% in league play or in nike camps. Injuries to his thumb limited him in college and his skillset is onball like you said. I think his potential is still high, but his role on the celtics won't ever let him fulfill it. He and a1st rnd pick plus a second would get us someone like ORL or POR to double dip and we wouldn't have to give up either williams that we already have. I think at this point in the draft we are looking for role players rather than starters of the future and Bey projects to be a nba 3&D guy from the jump, which is what we need. He shoots well and we had the 29th ranked scoring bench in the league so we need guys who can hit shots off the bench. P wil is a better defensive player but he'll take some time to develop his shot, but his FT % is really encouraging. Gordon will determine a lot of this though because he will look for a multi-year extension and if he wants more than 20mil/year than I think we'll pass. If that happens it won't free up that much cap space and Bertans isn't going to push over the hump for a championship. I'd love if Gordon opts in or we can do a S%T because we need a true PF and G or P wil aren't ready for championship starter yet. It'll be interesting we gotta get to lottery order first before we really know what to expect


Kind of piggy backing off of my last post, I don't think SF is really the need. If you just list our second unit of Wanamaker/Smart/Ojeleye/Grant/Kanter or RWilliams then yeah, Ojeleye at SF is a weak spot. But the reality is that with how rotations line up you're usually going to have one of Brown/Hayward/Tatum out there at a time. People post the "second unit" on paper but I'm a believer in staggered minutes for the starters over a true second unit like that. So with Brown/Hayward/Tatum all playing staggered minutes I don't think we have any sort of hole at SF. I'm totally fine having a 2 like Langford for shot creation or a 4 like Patrick Williams "listed" as my second nit SF because reality is they won't hardly ever play there due to Brown/Hayward/Tatum and even Smart on the team.

I love the Brown/Hayward/Tatum trio at the 2/3/4 don't get me wrong. It's been amazing on both ends of the court for us really this year because Brown's a great defender on ball and Tatum has made huge, underrated strides as an off ball defender that get overshadowed by this offense. Hayward doesn't have jump out of the gym athleticism so people assume he can't defend but he's great in team defense and can handle a diversity of matchups. So it works on that end to go with the offense where obviously more versatile players helps. I'd still like to have the option of a more rugged 4 though. The same way Kira Lewis checks all the boxes for our scheme at PG, I think Patrick Williams does at PF. He brings the small ball elements while also the rugged defense too. I think he can shoot the ball well enough but also attack closeouts and handle/pass within the offense (not saying he's a point forward but good enough within the offense). Bey to me is purely 3&D without he ruggedness to defend a lot of 4s but without the quickness to be elite on the perimeter as you noted. I think that brings you the same matchup issues we do run into in spurts with having to play Brown/Hayward/Tatum together if he's in there for one of them. It's a fine pairing on paper with Grant Williams at the 4 on the "second unit" but I go back to my point of how much do we really want that pairing vs a starter playign with one of them.

I know you say to worry about role players and not future starters, but I disagree. Kemba/Hayward aren't going to be here forever. Kemba's got 3 years left on his deal and I'm against keeping Hayward for beyond that timeframe. By the end of the rookie contracts, the players we draft this year will outlast them if that's the case. They'll still be on the last year of their rookie deals at that point. I can totally envision a scenario 3 years from now that Lewis and Pat Williams have been bench players but now one or both of them are stepping into the starting lineup for Walker and/or Hayward, depending on what we do with the cap space we'd have. I have a harder time seeing Bey in that because I'm just not high on his upside. I always like to draft for higher long term potential because ideally anyone you draft outlasts your immediate needs and those are the guys who hold more value in trades too.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1278 » by yahboi617 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:15 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:
yahboi617 wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:
I like Grant Williams too. I thought he played really well on defense in a variety of assignments. His overall offense was trash but he has that 0-21 start from 3 which seemed so uncharacteristically bad. Shot 35% from 3 the rest of the way which is more in line with what the college projections were, so I'm inclined to think that will be more what he is going forward like you said. With his passing/feel for the game he reminds me of the San Antonio Spurs late career version of Boris Diaw. That and his strong multi position defense is a nice bench player.

I think Pat Williams is a PF, not a SF though. So that created a bit of a log jam with Grant. Because I'm assuming Hayward is back and indications are they want to extend him (though we'll see how COVID the financials of that). So that means you have the Kemba/Brown/Hayward/Tatum starting group and if both P and G Williams are best at the 4, it's crowded. So that's why I was willing to include him. Because as much as I do like him, I see a limited ceiling.

I'm not very high on Bey, especially vs P Williams. I think Bey struggles to do anything but shoot. I think he's too much of a tweener on defense - not quick enough for 3s, not strong enough for 4s. I don't think he attacks closeouts the way Pat Williams does and Williams also has more handles IMO. I just don't see the upside to move up for with Bey and give up multiple players/picks. Wouldn't hate him at #17 but I wouldn't be trying to move up for him if we get my dream pick of Kira Lewis the way I would with Pat Williams.

Langford I think we took ahead of Grant for a reason. I really liked the defense he showed when he played and then on offense I think the game projects. It's tough because he was always a pure on ball guy so they're trying to get him to adjust to being more off ball. But I think once he gets those nuances down he'll be a nice bench scorer on the wing for us. It takes time to adjust, but guys can more easily learn to playing off the ball than on. And then they have those on ball skills to fall back on when plays break down.

R. Williams fits more of a positional need for us than G Williams, especially in this scenario where we're moving up for P Williams like I had. I also think the extra year on G's contract made him more valuable to another team in this trade scenario so it worked out on that end too.

I think Saddiq is a guy to guard 1-3 rather than 3-4, he isn't quick enough to be a shutdown guy but he is long enough to contest and make things difficult. We'll have to see if the Grizzlies make the playoffs or not because if they don't then there would be little stopping us from getting Kira and we could trade up for a SF if need be. I like langfords defense and it was suprising to see it because he was lackadaisical on that end in highschool and college but his offense worries me. He wasn't a good 3pt shooter in highschool, from what I could find he was barely over 30% in league play or in nike camps. Injuries to his thumb limited him in college and his skillset is onball like you said. I think his potential is still high, but his role on the celtics won't ever let him fulfill it. He and a1st rnd pick plus a second would get us someone like ORL or POR to double dip and we wouldn't have to give up either williams that we already have. I think at this point in the draft we are looking for role players rather than starters of the future and Bey projects to be a nba 3&D guy from the jump, which is what we need. He shoots well and we had the 29th ranked scoring bench in the league so we need guys who can hit shots off the bench. P wil is a better defensive player but he'll take some time to develop his shot, but his FT % is really encouraging. Gordon will determine a lot of this though because he will look for a multi-year extension and if he wants more than 20mil/year than I think we'll pass. If that happens it won't free up that much cap space and Bertans isn't going to push over the hump for a championship. I'd love if Gordon opts in or we can do a S%T because we need a true PF and G or P wil aren't ready for championship starter yet. It'll be interesting we gotta get to lottery order first before we really know what to expect


Kind of piggy backing off of my last post, I don't think SF is really the need. If you just list our second unit of Wanamaker/Smart/Ojeleye/Grant/Kanter or RWilliams then yeah, Ojeleye at SF is a weak spot. But the reality is that with how rotations line up you're usually going to have one of Brown/Hayward/Tatum out there at a time. People post the "second unit" on paper but I'm a believer in staggered minutes for the starters over a true second unit like that. So with Brown/Hayward/Tatum all playing staggered minutes I don't think we have any sort of hole at SF. I'm totally fine having a 2 like Langford for shot creation or a 4 like Patrick Williams "listed" as my second nit SF because reality is they won't hardly ever play there due to Brown/Hayward/Tatum and even Smart on the team.

I love the Brown/Hayward/Tatum trio at the 2/3/4 don't get me wrong. It's been amazing on both ends of the court for us really this year because Brown's a great defender on ball and Tatum has made huge, underrated strides as an off ball defender that get overshadowed by this offense. Hayward doesn't have jump out of the gym athleticism so people assume he can't defend but he's great in team defense and can handle a diversity of matchups. So it works on that end to go with the offense where obviously more versatile players helps. I'd still like to have the option of a more rugged 4 though. The same way Kira Lewis checks all the boxes for our scheme at PG, I think Patrick Williams does at PF. He brings the small ball elements while also the rugged defense too. I think he can shoot the ball well enough but also attack closeouts and handle/pass within the offense (not saying he's a point forward but good enough within the offense). Bey to me is purely 3&D without he ruggedness to defend a lot of 4s but without the quickness to be elite on the perimeter as you noted. I think that brings you the same matchup issues we do run into in spurts with having to play Brown/Hayward/Tatum together if he's in there for one of them. It's a fine pairing on paper with Grant Williams at the 4 on the "second unit" but I go back to my point of how much do we really want that pairing vs a starter playign with one of them.

I know you say to worry about role players and not future starters, but I disagree. Kemba/Hayward aren't going to be here forever. Kemba's got 3 years left on his deal and I'm against keeping Hayward for beyond that timeframe. By the end of the rookie contracts, the players we draft this year will outlast them if that's the case. They'll still be on the last year of their rookie deals at that point. I can totally envision a scenario 3 years from now that Lewis and Pat Williams have been bench players but now one or both of them are stepping into the starting lineup for Walker and/or Hayward, depending on what we do with the cap space we'd have. I have a harder time seeing Bey in that because I'm just not high on his upside. I always like to draft for higher long term potential because ideally anyone you draft outlasts your immediate needs and those are the guys who hold more value in trades too.

I think you're making a lot of great points, especially about staggering minutes. But where you like Romeo at the 2 I disagree, I'm low on Romeo's offensive ability because of his shooting. I'd rather have Brown/Tatum/Hayward at the 2/3 with Marcus playing his weapon x role. Now that would normally mean you need a 4 but with marcus or jaylen they can cover for you and we'll still need scoring. Pat is an athlete but that doesn't get you buckets in the NBA. And as far as picks that will replace hayward at the 4 in a few years time I think Grant is perfect for that. He is rugged on defense and I think will be around a 33% 3pt shooter at 4-5 attempts a game by then. Kira will be perfect for us in the short and long term but Pat's role has already been filled IMO. Bey isn't better on defense, this we both agree and he doesn't have many offensive skills for future development, but he already has one that will give us points immediately. We can develop his defense to make him stick with guards and add some weight so he can bang with 4's. I think Tatum can develop as a passer, especially playing without kemba and playing with the starters. Give him minutes with two easy targets to hit in the corner (bey) and the at the rim (lob Williams) and he'll add an assist or two a game. Pat could develop into a better player, this i agree, but we want to win a championship next year and the year after so we'll need role players, pus we got enough defenders who might hit a three of the catch and can't dribble all that well. Bey will be a good to great role player immediately and give us points when tatum/brown/hayward hit a lull.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1279 » by OGLife » Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:30 pm

Can anyone else see the Wiseman - Bamba comparison?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1280 » by EMG518 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:56 pm

OGLife wrote:Can anyone else see the Wiseman - Bamba comparison?


Wiseman looks way more physically ready coming into the draft and is a lot more athletic. I don't really see the comp.

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