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Fred’s next contract

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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#141 » by SHFT » Tue Dec 3, 2019 6:04 pm

gp2015 wrote:
SHFT wrote:Lol peoples beef with FVV are so out there.

He dribbles too much? Like wtf lol he is the point guard and the ball is flying 80% of the time. Sometimes we have to RESET and then let the play actually get going. Obv FVV is the main candidate to have the ball in his hands when that happens. Do people know we actually run sets?

He isnt a good passer? I had this thought last year but he has been superb running the show this year. He isnt getting assists like Iverson or Westbrook. They are in the natural flow of our offence.

He is getting his mid range going, he is obviously still learning how to run point for an NBA contender and even in a learning phase, he is crushing it.

Its like people hear or read one thing and it cements in their head regardless of his actual play on the actual floor.

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Well unlike some people who have completely changed their minds about him after about 10 good games, I base my opinion of him on this year as well as his previous 3 seasons and not just what he has done recently. In past years, he has struggled to be a consistent shooter (hot and cold) and be a good play maker. Most people who have watched Raptors games would agree with that. I would still say he is below average in creating opportunities for others. Like I said, he has a habit of over dribbling and wasting most of the clock and at times he looks for his own shot too much. This has improved somewhat this season but it has been a tendency of his.

Yes, he has been playing well this season but it's 20 games and only 12 games or so as starting point guard. Plus, this is a contract year and he's obviously looking for a big pay day so improving his play is not uncommon. It's not like we haven't seen this before from other players in contract years so you have to be weary.


You are going to reference his play while he was an undrafted guard assigned to the G league lmao? Im guessing you didnt want to max Pascal based on that EXACT SAME LOGIC? Please answer this.

When a team is looking at paying their rookie who is in year 4 of his deal, do you think they are like "well he had a pretty bad first year so lets pump the brakes". Players grow, they adapt, they learn.

Past yearS? as in plural? how do you figure? When was he running the point as a starter these last few years that you are drawing this information from? I use a limited sample size because that is what we have. We had a limited sample size with Pascal as a quasi # 1 option (22 games to be exact) so how is this different?

In past years, he has struggled to be a consistent shooter (hot and cold) and be a good play maker.


He is a career 40% shooter from downtown. That means he missed 60% of them. Its still in the elite category. If all you have to say is that Philly and Milwuakee stretch before his son was born I have something to say to you. He had exactly 10 games in that stretch when he was cold as ice. That is 3 games less than The Bargnani Rule. Also, his son wasnt born, could be some complications, who knows. I wont get into it because its speculation. What we do know for a FACT is after FVV JR popped, his daddy became everyones daddy. Other than that 1 stretch where the 1 thing in the world was probably weighing on his mind more than basketball, do you have another example?

Again with the playmaking, where are you getting this from? Please provide numbers over these last 2 years where he actually had a role as a playmaker that suggests he is not good at it. Where do you think these high assist and low turn ever numbers come from?

This year, his assist % is 29.5. Its not an other wordly number by any means but at the same time, FVV is not a pass first point guard like a CP3 or a Rubio (its a dying breed of pg imo). FWIW, Lowry's assist % is 28 and Pauls is 29.1.

So please do tell, what on earth are you referring to when it comes to his playmaking?
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#142 » by alan_156 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 6:25 pm

Not sure what else you would want from your pg on a contending team? Pay the man! He's proven what he can do with every opportunity he's given.
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#143 » by pilkoids » Tue Dec 3, 2019 6:32 pm

All signs point to management making room for 2021. Giving FVV $30M+ would be mutually incompatible with that. The writing is pretty much on the wall.
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#144 » by SHFT » Tue Dec 3, 2019 6:36 pm

pilkoids wrote:All signs point to management making room for 2021. Giving FVV $30M+ would be mutually incompatible with that. The writing is pretty much on the wall.


Except the team consists of more players than Pascal, FVV and a 2021 FA. Norm and even Ibaka will get moved before we dont bring back Freddy.
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#145 » by Gold Dragon » Tue Dec 3, 2019 6:39 pm

pilkoids wrote:All signs point to management making room for 2021. Giving FVV $30M+ would be mutually incompatible with that. The writing is pretty much on the wall.


Except it isn’t incompatible. Fred’s max is 29.5M in a 125M cap. We can give him up to 29M and still have room for a max free agent in 2021 if norm opts out or is traded.

viewtopic.php?p=79626015#p79626015

In fact I would argue that having Fred locked up would increase our chances at signing a max free agent in 2021 because it will ensure that our team maintains its winning ways and have a better core once that free agent joins.
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#146 » by HeadtopChunes » Tue Dec 3, 2019 6:41 pm

I really don’t see anyone giving him over $25M

Maybe if makes the all star team he can force it though

There’s no way we let him walk though, and we should definitely try our best to keep him around. His recent play has confirmed that he can be the PG of the future to me
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#147 » by Kurtz » Tue Dec 3, 2019 6:43 pm

ThemCrookedRefs wrote:We're not trading Fred. He's our PG of the future. I can see him getting something similar to what Brogdon got ($85mil/4yr = $21.25mil/yr), probably a little bit more. He's shown that he can be an impact starter/player on a championship/contending team. Last year I wouldn't have given him that much, but he's worth it now.

I think that there are only a few teams this offseason that can pay him big money (according to the Hoop Collective): Charlotte, Cleveland, Memphis, and Atlanta. I'm not sure any of those teams would be that interested in signing a PG. Charlotte just signed Rozier, Atlanta has Trae, Cleveland has Garland and Sexton, and Memphis has Ja.


Our biggest threat is the Knicks. They desperately need a PG, and will have max space when they decline the $16 mil option on Portis.
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#148 » by mademan » Tue Dec 3, 2019 7:08 pm

Kurtz wrote:
ThemCrookedRefs wrote:We're not trading Fred. He's our PG of the future. I can see him getting something similar to what Brogdon got ($85mil/4yr = $21.25mil/yr), probably a little bit more. He's shown that he can be an impact starter/player on a championship/contending team. Last year I wouldn't have given him that much, but he's worth it now.

I think that there are only a few teams this offseason that can pay him big money (according to the Hoop Collective): Charlotte, Cleveland, Memphis, and Atlanta. I'm not sure any of those teams would be that interested in signing a PG. Charlotte just signed Rozier, Atlanta has Trae, Cleveland has Garland and Sexton, and Memphis has Ja.


Our biggest threat is the Knicks. They desperately need a PG, and will have max space when they decline the $16 mil option on Portis.


Knicks are also gonna suck, and the top of the draft is chock full pg's.
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#149 » by MadDogSHWA » Tue Dec 3, 2019 7:09 pm

We also don't see FVV's words in the huddle or the locker room. I remember in the bench mob days Leo said Freddy is the de facto leader of that squad. He said it didn't matter if they were on the court or in the film room he was leading that group.

Not that leadership is worth more than a few M's but just saying FVV's overall impact is significant.
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#150 » by pilkoids » Tue Dec 3, 2019 7:14 pm

Gold Dragon wrote:
pilkoids wrote:All signs point to management making room for 2021. Giving FVV $30M+ would be mutually incompatible with that. The writing is pretty much on the wall.


Except it isn’t incompatible. Fred’s max is 29.5M in a 125M cap. We can give him up to 29M and still have room for a max free agent in 2021 if norm opts out or is traded.

viewtopic.php?p=79626015#p79626015

In fact I would argue that having Fred locked up would increase our chances at signing a max free agent in 2021 because it will ensure that our team maintains its winning ways and have a better core once that free agent joins.


Fair enough, so from that thread (for anyone else who didn't click on it):

35,078,400 Pascal
20,000,000 Fred
11,616,645 OG cap hold
2,049,757 TD2 cap hold
1,782,621 Thomas
1,782,621 Dewan
7,017,591 empty roster spot cap hold
79,327,635 TOTAL

45,672,365 Room under 125M cap

We can still sign a max free agent, have room for a 9M dollar player and the tax payer MLE which will be around 6M. We might also have the BAE which would be around 3-4M. The rest would be minimum level players.


So our starting lineup would look something like:

Fred
TD
OG
Pascal
[Max Player]

Rounding out the roster: Dewan, Thomas, 7M player, 9M player, 6M player, possibly 3-4M player.
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#151 » by SHFT » Tue Dec 3, 2019 7:17 pm

pilkoids wrote:
Gold Dragon wrote:
pilkoids wrote:All signs point to management making room for 2021. Giving FVV $30M+ would be mutually incompatible with that. The writing is pretty much on the wall.


Except it isn’t incompatible. Fred’s max is 29.5M in a 125M cap. We can give him up to 29M and still have room for a max free agent in 2021 if norm opts out or is traded.

viewtopic.php?p=79626015#p79626015

In fact I would argue that having Fred locked up would increase our chances at signing a max free agent in 2021 because it will ensure that our team maintains its winning ways and have a better core once that free agent joins.


Fair enough, so from that thread (for anyone else who didn't click on it):

35,078,400 Pascal
20,000,000 Fred
11,616,645 OG cap hold
2,049,757 TD2 cap hold
1,782,621 Thomas
1,782,621 Dewan
7,017,591 empty roster spot cap hold
79,327,635 TOTAL

45,672,365 Room under 125M cap

We can still sign a max free agent, have room for a 9M dollar player and the tax payer MLE which will be around 6M. We might also have the BAE which would be around 3-4M. The rest would be minimum level players.


So our starting lineup would look something like:

Fred
TD
OG
Pascal
[Max Player]

Rounding out the roster: Dewan, Thomas, 7M player, 9M player, 6M player, possibly 3-4M player.
Dont sleep on a 905 callup as the 9th or 10th man.

Sent from my LG-H915 using RealGM mobile app
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#152 » by pilkoids » Tue Dec 3, 2019 7:35 pm

SHFT wrote:
pilkoids wrote:
Gold Dragon wrote:
Except it isn’t incompatible. Fred’s max is 29.5M in a 125M cap. We can give him up to 29M and still have room for a max free agent in 2021 if norm opts out or is traded.

viewtopic.php?p=79626015#p79626015

In fact I would argue that having Fred locked up would increase our chances at signing a max free agent in 2021 because it will ensure that our team maintains its winning ways and have a better core once that free agent joins.


Fair enough, so from that thread (for anyone else who didn't click on it):

35,078,400 Pascal
20,000,000 Fred
11,616,645 OG cap hold
2,049,757 TD2 cap hold
1,782,621 Thomas
1,782,621 Dewan
7,017,591 empty roster spot cap hold
79,327,635 TOTAL

45,672,365 Room under 125M cap

We can still sign a max free agent, have room for a 9M dollar player and the tax payer MLE which will be around 6M. We might also have the BAE which would be around 3-4M. The rest would be minimum level players.


So our starting lineup would look something like:

Fred
TD
OG
Pascal
[Max Player]

Rounding out the roster: Dewan, Thomas, 7M player, 9M player, 6M player, possibly 3-4M player.
Dont sleep on a 905 callup as the 9th or 10th man.

Sent from my LG-H915 using RealGM mobile app


Anyone tracking Tyler Eniss' progress?
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#153 » by RapsBack2Back » Tue Dec 3, 2019 7:38 pm

maternal85 wrote:
gp2015 wrote:Not okay with paying FVV 20 million plus.

Welcome Terence Davis II, our new PG of the future!


Then when TD becomes a good player and asks for 20 million per year, you let him go and start the cycle all over again ? I'm not directing this at you specifically, but how old are people here ? "Fred isn't worth X" No, whatever a team is ready to give FVV, that's his worth. And if trash players or respectable players at best like eric gordan (15 mill), D Russell (27 million), Dragic (20 million), James Johnson (15 million), Dennis Schrodeor ( 15 million), Reggie F-ing Jackson (18 million), Eric Bledose (15 million), etc, all make 15 million or more, what do you think a guy like Fred who was an important player on a world champ team will ask for ? He's starting at 20 million per year period ! He's giving you 18 and 8, while shooting 40% from behind the arc and leading a title contending team. Even if MU doesn't want to give him 20 million per year. He will. Because in the NBA you just don't let assets walk away. The Warriors even begged Durant to do a S &T rather than him just walking away. That's how GM's think.

On another note. I've been watching this team from day 1. Literally at the skydome dodging bird crap during the game. With the exception of I.Thomas, all the GM's we had were incompetent. They were so incompetent, that even with the 1st overall pick, they'd still mess up the draft. Each year the people calling the draft would laugh at us once it was our turn to select. I can remember the whole stadium laughing at us for taking Hoffa over Andre.Iggy. Now we have the best GM in the league. We're drafting stars with late 1st rounders (Pascal) or drafting good rotation players in the 2nd round (Norman). We're even signing good un-drafted players with FVV and now TD. What MU/Webster are doing year after year is unheard off. You may be luck to get one gem in the late 1st round/ 2nd round, but doing it each year, while even doing it with undrafted players ?? That's crazy.

I use to always wish one-day we have a good drafting front office. Now we finally have that, and all these lil we the north kids are crying about paying them ? "If FVV wants 20 million we let him walk" ?!?!?! Are you guys sick ? Do you know how hard it is to draft a good starting PG in the NBA with a 1st round pick, let alone undrafted ? You spoiled brats who in the last 6 years got to witness good long playoff basketball, with an amazing front office, and now a championship, need to start showing some appreciation for what we have and what MU/Webster have been doing. Stop complaining about paying good players. I'd rather overpay a good player like FVV, than the trash I listed up. James Johnson 15 mill, Reggie Jackson 18 mill. Yuk !!!!



It's hard to draft good players, even in the first round - and especially outside the lottery. However, you don't win championships by paying players their open market value. The open market value is almost always gonna be set by some desperate **** organization like the Knicks or Kings (aka knicks west).

We won last year because:

1. Warriors were injured
2. We had a bunch of guys that outplayed their contracts. Siakam on 2m a year. FVV on 10m a year. Kawhi on 18m a year.

If those guys were all being paid their market value, then that's like 30m+ more salary on the books, meaning we dont have Lowry.

Look at the previous teams that won chips, they all had one guy that massively overpreformed their contract:

Warriors : steph/kd are both worth way more than the max
Cavs: Lebron
Spurs: everyone is underpaid

If we pay FVV 20/25m, we need him to avg 20/10 if we wanna keep winning.

And BTW, all the players you listed are on negative-value contracts, meaning the team would have to give up assets to find a team to take them. The idea is to not hand out one of those contracts.
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#154 » by maternal85 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 7:50 pm

gp2015 wrote:
maternal85 wrote:
gp2015 wrote:Not okay with paying FVV 20 million plus.

Welcome Terence Davis II, our new PG of the future!


Then when TD becomes a good player and asks for 20 million per year, you let him go and start the cycle all over again ? I'm not directing this at you specifically, but how old are people here ? "Fred isn't worth X" No, whatever a team is ready to give FVV, that's his worth. And if trash players or respectable players at best like eric gordan (15 mill), D Russell (27 million), Dragic (20 million), James Johnson (15 million), Dennis Schrodeor ( 15 million), Reggie F-ing Jackson (18 million), Eric Bledose (15 million), etc, all make 15 million or more, what do you think a guy like Fred who was an important player on a world champ team will ask for ? He's starting at 20 million per year period ! He's giving you 18 and 8, while shooting 40% from behind the arc and leading a title contending team. Even if MU doesn't want to give him 20 million per year. He will. Because in the NBA you just don't let assets walk away. The Warriors even begged Durant to do a S &T rather than him just walking away. That's how GM's think.

On another note. I've been watching this team from day 1. Literally at the skydome dodging bird crap during the game. With the exception of I.Thomas, all the GM's we had were incompetent. They were so incompetent, that even with the 1st overall pick, they'd still mess up the draft. Each year the people calling the draft would laugh at us once it was our turn to select. I can remember the whole stadium laughing at us for taking Hoffa over Andre.Iggy. Now we have the best GM in the league. We're drafting stars with late 1st rounders (Pascal) or drafting good rotation players in the 2nd round (Norman). We're even signing good un-drafted players with FVV and now TD. What MU/Webster are doing year after year is unheard off. You may be luck to get one gem in the late 1st round/ 2nd round, but doing it each year, while even doing it with undrafted players ?? That's crazy.

I use to always wish one-day we have a good drafting front office. Now we finally have that, and all these lil we the north kids are crying about paying them ? "If FVV wants 20 million we let him walk" ?!?!?! Are you guys sick ? Do you know how hard it is to draft a good starting PG in the NBA with a 1st round pick, let alone undrafted ? You spoiled brats who in the last 6 years got to witness good long playoff basketball, with an amazing front office, and now a championship, need to start showing some appreciation for what we have and what MU/Webster have been doing. Stop complaining about paying good players. I'd rather overpay a good player like FVV, than the trash I listed up. James Johnson 15 mill, Reggie Jackson 18 mill. Yuk !!!!


The reason I'm not okay with paying FVV like 25 million a season is because I'm not completely sold as him being our future PG. He has not always been consistent, he dribbles too much and hasn't always created well for others. He's undersized and he sometimes continues to charge into the net, getting blocked many times. There are many stories that came out last year that he was pretty vocal about complaining about minutes. This was on a championship contending teams and after we gave him a pretty good extension so that is a red flag for me. Sometimes, he gets into selfish mode and you can tell he is playing for his own numbers so I can't eliminate that his recent play is due to being a contract year.

Now, obviously he has been playing well more recently and I can't deny that but I still need to base my opinion on how he has played in the past as well as this year.

Also, I have become a big fan of Davis. He is younger, he is bigger. He can shoot, play defense, create for others and rebound. I think his ceiling is higher than FVV, especially for a starting PG. If he develops on this current rate, then yes in a few years when his contract comes up, I would be more comfortable with giving him a big contract. I ask myself this, would I rather give Davis a chance and pay him almost nothing for the next couple of years or pay 25 million plus for FVV? Obviously, FVV is a lot more polished now but I don't think Davis would be a big downgrade in any category with increased minutes. We already have a similar player in Davis, so why pay so much more? I would rather take that money and spend it elsewhere on a quality shooting guard or another big.

Also, you said that you're not talking about me specifically, but don't assume everyone that is willing to let FVV go is a teenager who's spoiled after the championship. I've been watching this team since day one, as you have. Yes, I know how difficult it is to have a good quality point guard but I think we have that in Davis as well.

At the end of the day though, I do have complete confidence in Masai and Webster. If they do decide to give FVV a big extension, then I know they have done their homework. If Davis develops as I hope he does, I trust Masai can make a good trade if necessary.


I've shared similar concerns, but this is FVV first time leading an NBA team. Based on this years performance and previous years, we're not getting better in the open market or when Lowry retires or gets traded. As for him wanting more minutes. Who doesn't ? It wasn't too long ago Lowry and Jose would fight for minutes. Or Kevin Willis and Antonio Davis. Heck, all the players on Boston wanted more minutes last year. He's going to ask for the max, so he knows he can't really justify that unless he starts and puts up good numbers. Keep in mind, he's further in his development than some all-star PG's were at the same age.

As for Davis. Believe me I loved the guy since he was with Denver. I hyped this guy before he even played a single preseason game. He's no doubt our future PG in a few years and an allstar. But my question is why rush him ? Let him soak up all the experience he can from the vets. Give him good minutes and watch him gradually grow into the all-star we think he'll be. I don't understand why people just want to throw him to the wolves. Giving him too much responsibility could also slow or destroy his development as well. But like you said, whatever MU or Webster do, I'm down. I know they'll do their homework.
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#155 » by maternal85 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 8:08 pm

RapsBack2Back wrote:
maternal85 wrote:
gp2015 wrote:Not okay with paying FVV 20 million plus.

Welcome Terence Davis II, our new PG of the future!


Then when TD becomes a good player and asks for 20 million per year, you let him go and start the cycle all over again ? I'm not directing this at you specifically, but how old are people here ? "Fred isn't worth X" No, whatever a team is ready to give FVV, that's his worth. And if trash players or respectable players at best like eric gordan (15 mill), D Russell (27 million), Dragic (20 million), James Johnson (15 million), Dennis Schrodeor ( 15 million), Reggie F-ing Jackson (18 million), Eric Bledose (15 million), etc, all make 15 million or more, what do you think a guy like Fred who was an important player on a world champ team will ask for ? He's starting at 20 million per year period ! He's giving you 18 and 8, while shooting 40% from behind the arc and leading a title contending team. Even if MU doesn't want to give him 20 million per year. He will. Because in the NBA you just don't let assets walk away. The Warriors even begged Durant to do a S &T rather than him just walking away. That's how GM's think.

On another note. I've been watching this team from day 1. Literally at the skydome dodging bird crap during the game. With the exception of I.Thomas, all the GM's we had were incompetent. They were so incompetent, that even with the 1st overall pick, they'd still mess up the draft. Each year the people calling the draft would laugh at us once it was our turn to select. I can remember the whole stadium laughing at us for taking Hoffa over Andre.Iggy. Now we have the best GM in the league. We're drafting stars with late 1st rounders (Pascal) or drafting good rotation players in the 2nd round (Norman). We're even signing good un-drafted players with FVV and now TD. What MU/Webster are doing year after year is unheard off. You may be luck to get one gem in the late 1st round/ 2nd round, but doing it each year, while even doing it with undrafted players ?? That's crazy.

I use to always wish one-day we have a good drafting front office. Now we finally have that, and all these lil we the north kids are crying about paying them ? "If FVV wants 20 million we let him walk" ?!?!?! Are you guys sick ? Do you know how hard it is to draft a good starting PG in the NBA with a 1st round pick, let alone undrafted ? You spoiled brats who in the last 6 years got to witness good long playoff basketball, with an amazing front office, and now a championship, need to start showing some appreciation for what we have and what MU/Webster have been doing. Stop complaining about paying good players. I'd rather overpay a good player like FVV, than the trash I listed up. James Johnson 15 mill, Reggie Jackson 18 mill. Yuk !!!!



It's hard to draft good players, even in the first round - and especially outside the lottery. However, you don't win championships by paying players their open market value. The open market value is almost always gonna be set by some desperate **** organization like the Knicks or Kings (aka knicks west).

We won last year because:

1. Warriors were injured
2. We had a bunch of guys that outplayed their contracts. Siakam on 2m a year. FVV on 10m a year. Kawhi on 18m a year.

If those guys were all being paid their market value, then that's like 30m+ more salary on the books, meaning we dont have Lowry.

Look at the previous teams that won chips, they all had one guy that massively overpreformed their contract:

Warriors : steph/kd are both worth way more than the max
Cavs: Lebron
Spurs: everyone is underpaid

If we pay FVV 20/25m, we need him to avg 20/10 if we wanna keep winning.

And BTW, all the players you listed are on negative-value contracts, meaning the team would have to give up assets to find a team to take them. The idea is to not hand out one of those contracts.


You pay the guys which you can't live without. FVV is one of those guys. If a team was offering Boucher 20 million per year, that you let go. We can easily replace him. It asset management. We won last year:

1. Warriors were too cheap to pay good quality role players. As a result, they ran their starters to death. Those injuries weren't a fluke. A players body can only take so much.

2. I'm sure MU would keep al those guys if it meant getting rid of Lowry. Again asset management, as they're all worth more than Lowry imo.

You need to be consistent, and have a winning culture. You can't keep letting guys go because they "overperformed" their contracts. So would you rather have them not overperform their contract and us be horrible, and not win a title ? So lets go back to the old raptors ?
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#156 » by RapsBack2Back » Tue Dec 3, 2019 8:50 pm

maternal85 wrote:
RapsBack2Back wrote:
maternal85 wrote:
Then when TD becomes a good player and asks for 20 million per year, you let him go and start the cycle all over again ? I'm not directing this at you specifically, but how old are people here ? "Fred isn't worth X" No, whatever a team is ready to give FVV, that's his worth. And if trash players or respectable players at best like eric gordan (15 mill), D Russell (27 million), Dragic (20 million), James Johnson (15 million), Dennis Schrodeor ( 15 million), Reggie F-ing Jackson (18 million), Eric Bledose (15 million), etc, all make 15 million or more, what do you think a guy like Fred who was an important player on a world champ team will ask for ? He's starting at 20 million per year period ! He's giving you 18 and 8, while shooting 40% from behind the arc and leading a title contending team. Even if MU doesn't want to give him 20 million per year. He will. Because in the NBA you just don't let assets walk away. The Warriors even begged Durant to do a S &T rather than him just walking away. That's how GM's think.

On another note. I've been watching this team from day 1. Literally at the skydome dodging bird crap during the game. With the exception of I.Thomas, all the GM's we had were incompetent. They were so incompetent, that even with the 1st overall pick, they'd still mess up the draft. Each year the people calling the draft would laugh at us once it was our turn to select. I can remember the whole stadium laughing at us for taking Hoffa over Andre.Iggy. Now we have the best GM in the league. We're drafting stars with late 1st rounders (Pascal) or drafting good rotation players in the 2nd round (Norman). We're even signing good un-drafted players with FVV and now TD. What MU/Webster are doing year after year is unheard off. You may be luck to get one gem in the late 1st round/ 2nd round, but doing it each year, while even doing it with undrafted players ?? That's crazy.

I use to always wish one-day we have a good drafting front office. Now we finally have that, and all these lil we the north kids are crying about paying them ? "If FVV wants 20 million we let him walk" ?!?!?! Are you guys sick ? Do you know how hard it is to draft a good starting PG in the NBA with a 1st round pick, let alone undrafted ? You spoiled brats who in the last 6 years got to witness good long playoff basketball, with an amazing front office, and now a championship, need to start showing some appreciation for what we have and what MU/Webster have been doing. Stop complaining about paying good players. I'd rather overpay a good player like FVV, than the trash I listed up. James Johnson 15 mill, Reggie Jackson 18 mill. Yuk !!!!



It's hard to draft good players, even in the first round - and especially outside the lottery. However, you don't win championships by paying players their open market value. The open market value is almost always gonna be set by some desperate **** organization like the Knicks or Kings (aka knicks west).

We won last year because:

1. Warriors were injured
2. We had a bunch of guys that outplayed their contracts. Siakam on 2m a year. FVV on 10m a year. Kawhi on 18m a year.

If those guys were all being paid their market value, then that's like 30m+ more salary on the books, meaning we dont have Lowry.

Look at the previous teams that won chips, they all had one guy that massively overpreformed their contract:

Warriors : steph/kd are both worth way more than the max
Cavs: Lebron
Spurs: everyone is underpaid

If we pay FVV 20/25m, we need him to avg 20/10 if we wanna keep winning.

And BTW, all the players you listed are on negative-value contracts, meaning the team would have to give up assets to find a team to take them. The idea is to not hand out one of those contracts.


You pay the guys which you can't live without. FVV is one of those guys. If a team was offering Boucher 20 million per year, that you let go. We can easily replace him. It asset management. We won last year:

1. Warriors were too cheap to pay good quality role players. As a result, they ran their starters to death. Those injuries weren't a fluke. A players body can only take so much.

2. I'm sure MU would keep al those guys if it meant getting rid of Lowry. Again asset management, as they're all worth more than Lowry imo.

You need to be consistent, and have a winning culture. You can't keep letting guys go because they "overperformed" their contracts. So would you rather have them not overperform their contract and us be horrible, and not win a title ? So lets go back to the old raptors ?


I see almost no scenario in which FVV can overperform his contract if its gonna be over 20m a year.

At best, its a neutral value contrac, unless the cap spikes in the upcoming 2-3 years.
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#157 » by gp2015 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 9:05 pm

SHFT wrote:
gp2015 wrote:
SHFT wrote:Lol peoples beef with FVV are so out there.

He dribbles too much? Like wtf lol he is the point guard and the ball is flying 80% of the time. Sometimes we have to RESET and then let the play actually get going. Obv FVV is the main candidate to have the ball in his hands when that happens. Do people know we actually run sets?

He isnt a good passer? I had this thought last year but he has been superb running the show this year. He isnt getting assists like Iverson or Westbrook. They are in the natural flow of our offence.

He is getting his mid range going, he is obviously still learning how to run point for an NBA contender and even in a learning phase, he is crushing it.

Its like people hear or read one thing and it cements in their head regardless of his actual play on the actual floor.

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Well unlike some people who have completely changed their minds about him after about 10 good games, I base my opinion of him on this year as well as his previous 3 seasons and not just what he has done recently. In past years, he has struggled to be a consistent shooter (hot and cold) and be a good play maker. Most people who have watched Raptors games would agree with that. I would still say he is below average in creating opportunities for others. Like I said, he has a habit of over dribbling and wasting most of the clock and at times he looks for his own shot too much. This has improved somewhat this season but it has been a tendency of his.

Yes, he has been playing well this season but it's 20 games and only 12 games or so as starting point guard. Plus, this is a contract year and he's obviously looking for a big pay day so improving his play is not uncommon. It's not like we haven't seen this before from other players in contract years so you have to be weary.


You are going to reference his play while he was an undrafted guard assigned to the G league lmao? Im guessing you didnt want to max Pascal based on that EXACT SAME LOGIC? Please answer this.

When a team is looking at paying their rookie who is in year 4 of his deal, do you think they are like "well he had a pretty bad first year so lets pump the brakes". Players grow, they adapt, they learn.

Past yearS? as in plural? how do you figure? When was he running the point as a starter these last few years that you are drawing this information from? I use a limited sample size because that is what we have. We had a limited sample size with Pascal as a quasi # 1 option (22 games to be exact) so how is this different?

In past years, he has struggled to be a consistent shooter (hot and cold) and be a good play maker.


He is a career 40% shooter from downtown. That means he missed 60% of them. Its still in the elite category. If all you have to say is that Philly and Milwuakee stretch before his son was born I have something to say to you. He had exactly 10 games in that stretch when he was cold as ice. That is 3 games less than The Bargnani Rule. Also, his son wasnt born, could be some complications, who knows. I wont get into it because its speculation. What we do know for a FACT is after FVV JR popped, his daddy became everyones daddy. Other than that 1 stretch where the 1 thing in the world was probably weighing on his mind more than basketball, do you have another example?

Again with the playmaking, where are you getting this from? Please provide numbers over these last 2 years where he actually had a role as a playmaker that suggests he is not good at it. Where do you think these high assist and low turn ever numbers come from?

This year, his assist % is 29.5. Its not an other wordly number by any means but at the same time, FVV is not a pass first point guard like a CP3 or a Rubio (its a dying breed of pg imo). FWIW, Lowry's assist % is 28 and Pauls is 29.1.

So please do tell, what on earth are you referring to when it comes to his playmaking?


Why are you using extremes when I'm talking about his entire career playing with the Raptors? Did I just comment on how he played as a rookie? Are you going to ignore all those comments I made about how he's improved since he came up?

No, I'm not talking about that stretch in the playoffs. Again, I don't talk in extremes like you seem to. Please go take a look at his game logs from last season. It's one good shooting night, followed by one bad shooting night and repeats with small variances. Thus, I made the observation that his shooting isn't always consistent. As a whole, he is a good shooter. I never denied that.

As for his playmaking, where did I get this idea from? Well, it seems to me you had the same observation one reply ago?

He isnt a good passer? I had this thought last year but he has been superb running the show this year.


I don't even know why you mention Pascal. He's a totally different player and the situations are different. Just because we maxxed him doesn't mean you can draw the same conclusion about FVV.
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#158 » by SurgeIblocka » Tue Dec 3, 2019 9:06 pm

Ask the Bucks if they regret letting Brogdon go!

Even Giannis has said it this year! What makes anyone think he would want to come here when the team didn’t retain one of its top players.
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#159 » by gp2015 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 9:09 pm

maternal85 wrote:
gp2015 wrote:
maternal85 wrote:
Then when TD becomes a good player and asks for 20 million per year, you let him go and start the cycle all over again ? I'm not directing this at you specifically, but how old are people here ? "Fred isn't worth X" No, whatever a team is ready to give FVV, that's his worth. And if trash players or respectable players at best like eric gordan (15 mill), D Russell (27 million), Dragic (20 million), James Johnson (15 million), Dennis Schrodeor ( 15 million), Reggie F-ing Jackson (18 million), Eric Bledose (15 million), etc, all make 15 million or more, what do you think a guy like Fred who was an important player on a world champ team will ask for ? He's starting at 20 million per year period ! He's giving you 18 and 8, while shooting 40% from behind the arc and leading a title contending team. Even if MU doesn't want to give him 20 million per year. He will. Because in the NBA you just don't let assets walk away. The Warriors even begged Durant to do a S &T rather than him just walking away. That's how GM's think.

On another note. I've been watching this team from day 1. Literally at the skydome dodging bird crap during the game. With the exception of I.Thomas, all the GM's we had were incompetent. They were so incompetent, that even with the 1st overall pick, they'd still mess up the draft. Each year the people calling the draft would laugh at us once it was our turn to select. I can remember the whole stadium laughing at us for taking Hoffa over Andre.Iggy. Now we have the best GM in the league. We're drafting stars with late 1st rounders (Pascal) or drafting good rotation players in the 2nd round (Norman). We're even signing good un-drafted players with FVV and now TD. What MU/Webster are doing year after year is unheard off. You may be luck to get one gem in the late 1st round/ 2nd round, but doing it each year, while even doing it with undrafted players ?? That's crazy.

I use to always wish one-day we have a good drafting front office. Now we finally have that, and all these lil we the north kids are crying about paying them ? "If FVV wants 20 million we let him walk" ?!?!?! Are you guys sick ? Do you know how hard it is to draft a good starting PG in the NBA with a 1st round pick, let alone undrafted ? You spoiled brats who in the last 6 years got to witness good long playoff basketball, with an amazing front office, and now a championship, need to start showing some appreciation for what we have and what MU/Webster have been doing. Stop complaining about paying good players. I'd rather overpay a good player like FVV, than the trash I listed up. James Johnson 15 mill, Reggie Jackson 18 mill. Yuk !!!!


The reason I'm not okay with paying FVV like 25 million a season is because I'm not completely sold as him being our future PG. He has not always been consistent, he dribbles too much and hasn't always created well for others. He's undersized and he sometimes continues to charge into the net, getting blocked many times. There are many stories that came out last year that he was pretty vocal about complaining about minutes. This was on a championship contending teams and after we gave him a pretty good extension so that is a red flag for me. Sometimes, he gets into selfish mode and you can tell he is playing for his own numbers so I can't eliminate that his recent play is due to being a contract year.

Now, obviously he has been playing well more recently and I can't deny that but I still need to base my opinion on how he has played in the past as well as this year.

Also, I have become a big fan of Davis. He is younger, he is bigger. He can shoot, play defense, create for others and rebound. I think his ceiling is higher than FVV, especially for a starting PG. If he develops on this current rate, then yes in a few years when his contract comes up, I would be more comfortable with giving him a big contract. I ask myself this, would I rather give Davis a chance and pay him almost nothing for the next couple of years or pay 25 million plus for FVV? Obviously, FVV is a lot more polished now but I don't think Davis would be a big downgrade in any category with increased minutes. We already have a similar player in Davis, so why pay so much more? I would rather take that money and spend it elsewhere on a quality shooting guard or another big.

Also, you said that you're not talking about me specifically, but don't assume everyone that is willing to let FVV go is a teenager who's spoiled after the championship. I've been watching this team since day one, as you have. Yes, I know how difficult it is to have a good quality point guard but I think we have that in Davis as well.

At the end of the day though, I do have complete confidence in Masai and Webster. If they do decide to give FVV a big extension, then I know they have done their homework. If Davis develops as I hope he does, I trust Masai can make a good trade if necessary.


I've shared similar concerns, but this is FVV first time leading an NBA team. Based on this years performance and previous years, we're not getting better in the open market or when Lowry retires or gets traded. As for him wanting more minutes. Who doesn't ? It wasn't too long ago Lowry and Jose would fight for minutes. Or Kevin Willis and Antonio Davis. Heck, all the players on Boston wanted more minutes last year. He's going to ask for the max, so he knows he can't really justify that unless he starts and puts up good numbers. Keep in mind, he's further in his development than some all-star PG's were at the same age.

As for Davis. Believe me I loved the guy since he was with Denver. I hyped this guy before he even played a single preseason game. He's no doubt our future PG in a few years and an allstar. But my question is why rush him ? Let him soak up all the experience he can from the vets. Give him good minutes and watch him gradually grow into the all-star we think he'll be. I don't understand why people just want to throw him to the wolves. Giving him too much responsibility could also slow or destroy his development as well. But like you said, whatever MU or Webster do, I'm down. I know they'll do their homework.


I agree with you that learning from FVV and Lowry will be great for Davis, especially seeing as FVV developed from similar situations. It's probably smarter to have him develop slowly and see what he's capable of.

I'll just go along with whatever Masai and Webster decide. They know better than me and I have complete confidence in them.
"I'm doing what I love to do. So if I can never walk again because of what I love to do, that's a chance I'll take. I'll die on the court." - Alvin Williams
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Re: Fred’s next contract 

Post#160 » by gp2015 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 9:10 pm

SurgeIblocka wrote:Ask the Bucks if they regret letting Brogdon go!

Even Giannis has said it this year! What makes anyone think he would want to come here when the team didn’t retain one of its top players.


I think they knew they f-ed up by signing Bledsoe but by the time they realized they made a huge mistake, it was too late. They couldn't sign them both to huge contracts.
"I'm doing what I love to do. So if I can never walk again because of what I love to do, that's a chance I'll take. I'll die on the court." - Alvin Williams

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