[Shams] Masai Ujiri is out as Vice Chairman and President of the Toronto Raptors - Part 2

[Yeezus_]

When Keith said he leaves the legacy stuff for the Winston Churchill’s of the world, I knew we’re screwed under his leadership. Man has no idea how to connect and resonate with fanbases.

He said that?

I thought I would give him the benefit of doubt. But a good friend of mine who is a bigger baseball fan than me said hell no **** that. He's a ***.

Someone asked him what he wants his legacy to be at the presser and he said some stupid answer. This dude has no idea how to connect with an audience but people should have faith he’ll successfully run MLSE?

In a previous presser after they re-signed the GM of TFC, Keith said he expects them to make the playoffs this upcoming season. Meanwhile they currently sit in second last in the conference.

[Scase]

I think it’s a pretty fair assumption if Mirko (Bell) was still around, the combination of his influence and LT’s influence would’ve resulted in Masai getting a new extension. So I dont think you can say it wouldn’t have been paid by any owner. And transparently, why do you even care how much Masai was getting paid if you’re agreeing Masai would’ve been able to navigate through this?

At the end of the day, the current brand equity, brand value, and the overall valuation of the Raptors team was largely due to Masai’s successful tenure.

Let’s also add that Keith has failed to establish and credibility in the 1.5 years he has been around and this is the guy Rogers wanted to lead the company.

No, no it wasn't. Every single team in the NBA had their valuation skyrocket due to the TV deals.

Okay? There’s still large incremental growth of all three facets due to the success of Masai’s tenure since 2013.

Incremental and large are contradictory statements, it quite literally cannot be both.

Every single NBA team saw a spike in valuation, only the Raps had Masai, there is more evidence to suggest he largely had nothing to do with it vs him having any measurable impact.

He was a good exec, we don't need to make stuff up to feel better.

[ill-Will03]

Oh, I'm sure Masai could have come back if he wanted to. He just would have had to take a significant pay cut going forward. $15M a season for what he's been doing since 2020 wouldn't have been paid by any owner in sports; it can't be any surprise what happened here.

I think it’s a pretty fair assumption if Mirko (Bell) was still around, the combination of his influence and LT’s influence would’ve resulted in Masai getting a new extension. So I dont think you can say it wouldn’t have been paid by any owner. And transparently, why do you even care how much Masai was getting paid if you’re agreeing Masai would’ve been able to navigate through this?

At the end of the day, the current brand equity, brand value, and the overall valuation of the Raptors team was largely due to Masai’s successful tenure.

Let’s also add that Keith has failed to establish and credibility in the 1.5 years he has been around and this is the guy Rogers wanted to lead the company.

No, no it wasn't. Every single team in the NBA had their valuation skyrocket due to the TV deals.

This is pretty disingenuous, sure many teams had their valuation sky rocket but there’s levels to it. We are now a top 10 valued teams in the league. And that is directly related to our winning and our championship which, even you can agree Masai was a huge part of.


I’m not sure what you guys get out of constantly trying to discredit the impact Masai had on this team. Its kinda strange tbh

[Randle McMurphy]

For all those talking about Masai being allegedly still one of the best executives of the league in the year 2025, this is how he is viewed by other fans outside of our Raptors fan bubble: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2466078

Who gives two **** about what non Raptors fans, who have no clue what's been transpiring, and are devoid of all context, think. You think they know that the nepo baby who fired him is the same one that has been running the Blue Jays into the ground for the past decade?

I think the point is being missed here, ignoring the specific Rogers angle of it, every single non raps fan I've seen on both the general boards and reddit are saying essentially the same few things.

Weird they did it right after the draft.
They had no idea what direction the team was headed in.
Baffling/bad moves made and a bad team the last few years.

The latter 2 are pretty straight forward and if anything, not being a raps fan makes that a more objective viewpoint. It's also what a lot of people have been saying here. Whether or not Ed fired him cause he hates him, there was plenty of ammo to justify the firing.

Given the respective reactions to this, it is apparent that many Raptors fans viewed Masai as some kind of untouchable due to 2019 (which allowed them to either look past or downplay some of the questionable/bad moves he had made since 2020) while other fanbases were able to see the flaws of the past few years a lot more clearly for what they were.

[Yeezus_]

No, no it wasn't. Every single team in the NBA had their valuation skyrocket due to the TV deals.

Okay? There’s still large incremental growth of all three facets due to the success of Masai’s tenure since 2013.

Incremental and large are contradictory statements, it quite literally cannot be both.

Every single NBA team saw a spike in valuation, only the Raps had Masai, there is more evidence to suggest he largely had nothing to do with it vs him having any measurable impact.

He was a good exec, we don't need to make stuff up to feel better.

They aren’t contradictory statements, you just need to think a little harder if you can. I’m not arguing with you because you seem to argue for the sake of it in every thread.

[Reeko]

For all those talking about Masai being allegedly still one of the best executives of the league in the year 2025, this is how he is viewed by other fans outside of our Raptors fan bubble: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2466078

Who gives two **** about what non Raptors fans, who have no clue what's been transpiring, and are devoid of all context, think. You think they know that the nepo baby who fired him is the same one that has been running the Blue Jays into the ground for the past decade?

I think the point is being missed here, ignoring the specific Rogers angle of it, every single non raps fan I've seen on both the general boards and reddit are saying essentially the same few things.

Weird they did it right after the draft.
They had no idea what direction the team was headed in.
Baffling/bad moves made and a bad team the last few years.

The latter 2 are pretty straight forward and if anything, not being a raps fan makes that a more objective viewpoint. It's also what a lot of people have been saying here. Whether or not Ed fired him cause he hates him, there was plenty of ammo to justify the firing.

It can be justified and rationalized. But this is why I said what I said, they're devoid of all context. Those other fans are looking at things on a surface level and believe that the firing was performance related when it wasn't, at least not to anyone who understands how cycles work. These guys don't understand that the reason why the moves have been so puzzling is because the FO was trying to thread the needle by attempting to be competitive in order to appease ownership, while also trying to rebuild. These non Raps fans are wondering why we didn't just do a proper rebuild, and that's because they don't understand that ownership, especially this one, was never going to allow that to happen.

[Scase]

I think it’s a pretty fair assumption if Mirko (Bell) was still around, the combination of his influence and LT’s influence would’ve resulted in Masai getting a new extension. So I dont think you can say it wouldn’t have been paid by any owner. And transparently, why do you even care how much Masai was getting paid if you’re agreeing Masai would’ve been able to navigate through this?

At the end of the day, the current brand equity, brand value, and the overall valuation of the Raptors team was largely due to Masai’s successful tenure.

Let’s also add that Keith has failed to establish and credibility in the 1.5 years he has been around and this is the guy Rogers wanted to lead the company.

No, no it wasn't. Every single team in the NBA had their valuation skyrocket due to the TV deals.

This is pretty disingenuous, sure many teams had their valuation sky rocket but there’s levels to it. We are now a top 10 valued teams in the league. And that is directly related to our winning and our championship which, even you can agree Masai was a huge part of.

Facts are not disingenuous just because they don't adhere to how you feel. Was there some impact from the chip to the value of the team, absolutely, but trying to identify exactly how much that was is kinda impossible. Masai gets credit for the chip, always has.

The valuation of the raptors essentially mirrors the exact same increases of the league average YoY.

Raptors year by year
Average franchise value of NBA teams

See if you can spot the difference, spoiler alert, there really isn't one.

[ill-Will03]

No, no it wasn't. Every single team in the NBA had their valuation skyrocket due to the TV deals.

This is pretty disingenuous, sure many teams had their valuation sky rocket but there’s levels to it. We are now a top 10 valued teams in the league. And that is directly related to our winning and our championship which, even you can agree Masai was a huge part of.

Facts are not disingenuous just because they don't adhere to how you feel. Was there some impact from the chip to the value of the team, absolutely but trying to identify exactly how much that was is kinda impossible. Masai gets credit for the chip, always has.

The valuation of the raptors essentially mirrors the exact same increases of the league average YoY.

Raptors year by year
Average franchise value of NBA teams

See if you can spot the difference, spoiler alert, there really isn't one.

So you even admit Masai did in fact have a positive impact on our valuation of our franchise…

[Tha Cynic]

Where did I agree that Masai would have been able to navigate through this? There's a reason I've wanted him gone for almost two years now. He's made a ton of mistakes and it's been clear that a new vision is needed.


And he should be acknowledged for that. But that doesn't mean you get a free pass until the end of time to mismanage a team this badly.


Pelley is a glorified errand boy for the board and has major experience as a sports/media executive. If it wasn't him, it would be somebody else like him giving pressers like that yesterday. Can't say I'm gonna get too up in arms about him.

I completely disagree with you but this is all subjective so if you really believe this then sure.

Just know that Ed Rogers’ track record doesn’t really instil confidence that the right guy will be hired for the job. The grass isn’t always greener on the other side.

The only track record we have on Ed Rogers' sports teams is his hiring of Shapiro with the Blue Jays (who was both highly sought after and well respected leaguewide at the time they got him). That's very little to go on.

What is it now - 9 years? Nothing to go on?

Somehow Masai is gone before this guy.

[Reeko]

I completely disagree with you but this is all subjective so if you really believe this then sure.

Just know that Ed Rogers’ track record doesn’t really instil confidence that the right guy will be hired for the job. The grass isn’t always greener on the other side.

The only track record we have on Ed Rogers' sports teams is his hiring of Shapiro with the Blue Jays (who was both highly sought after and well respected leaguewide at the time they got him). That's very little to go on.

What is it now - 9 years? Nothing to go on?

Somehow Masai is gone before this guy.

The goal post moving is comical to the point of being embarrassing.

[Scase]

Who gives two **** about what non Raptors fans, who have no clue what's been transpiring, and are devoid of all context, think. You think they know that the nepo baby who fired him is the same one that has been running the Blue Jays into the ground for the past decade?

I think the point is being missed here, ignoring the specific Rogers angle of it, every single non raps fan I've seen on both the general boards and reddit are saying essentially the same few things.

Weird they did it right after the draft.
They had no idea what direction the team was headed in.
Baffling/bad moves made and a bad team the last few years.

The latter 2 are pretty straight forward and if anything, not being a raps fan makes that a more objective viewpoint. It's also what a lot of people have been saying here. Whether or not Ed fired him cause he hates him, there was plenty of ammo to justify the firing.

It can be justified and rationalized. But this is why I said what I said, they're devoid of all context. Those other fans are looking at things on a surface level and believe that the firing was performance related when it wasn't, at least not to anyone who understands how cycles work. These guys don't understand that the reason why the moves have been so puzzling is because the FO was trying to thread the needle by attempting to be competitive in order to appease ownership, while also trying to rebuild. These non Raps fans are wondering why we didn't just do a proper rebuild, and that's because they don't understand that ownership, especially this one, was never going to allow that to happen.

This is where you lost me. I don't buy the excuse that everything was because of the ownership, Masai has never, in his entire career as an exec, performed a rebuild. He always re-tools, and every move made since the chip is on brand, they have just largely been bad moves. He's never overly valued FRPs, he always trades to get guys cause we can't get FA signings, and it definitely wasn't the ownership telling him to fill the team with people who can't shoot.

I cannot in good conscience try and pin this on the ownership. They were all Masai type moves, they just didn't pan out the way some of the others did. The ownership can be bad, and Masai doing a poor job are not mutually exclusive. Why did the ownership just suddenly decide to be up his ass? It's not like the stakes in MLSE changed in summer of 2019, hell they didn't even really change until 2024.

Credit does not get to be given to Masai for the good moves, and the bad stuff blamed on Rogers meddling.

[Yeezus_]

I completely disagree with you but this is all subjective so if you really believe this then sure.

Just know that Ed Rogers’ track record doesn’t really instil confidence that the right guy will be hired for the job. The grass isn’t always greener on the other side.

The only track record we have on Ed Rogers' sports teams is his hiring of Shapiro with the Blue Jays (who was both highly sought after and well respected leaguewide at the time they got him). That's very little to go on.

What is it now - 9 years? Nothing to go on?

Somehow Masai is gone before this guy.

9 years of incompetence and still having a job is wild lmao

[ForeverTFC]

No, no it wasn't. Every single team in the NBA had their valuation skyrocket due to the TV deals.

This is pretty disingenuous, sure many teams had their valuation sky rocket but there’s levels to it. We are now a top 10 valued teams in the league. And that is directly related to our winning and our championship which, even you can agree Masai was a huge part of.

Facts are not disingenuous just because they don't adhere to how you feel. Was there some impact from the chip to the value of the team, absolutely, but trying to identify exactly how much that was is kinda impossible. Masai gets credit for the chip, always has.

The valuation of the raptors essentially mirrors the exact same increases of the league average YoY.

Raptors year by year
Average franchise value of NBA teams

See if you can spot the difference, spoiler alert, there really isn't one.

According to this, Raptors grew their valuation at a ~24% CAGR from 2013 while the league average valuation grew at ~21.5% CAGR. If the Raptors had grown at league average, they would be valued at $3.5b. That's ~$900m of value created above league average.

[Scase]

This is pretty disingenuous, sure many teams had their valuation sky rocket but there’s levels to it. We are now a top 10 valued teams in the league. And that is directly related to our winning and our championship which, even you can agree Masai was a huge part of.

Facts are not disingenuous just because they don't adhere to how you feel. Was there some impact from the chip to the value of the team, absolutely but trying to identify exactly how much that was is kinda impossible. Masai gets credit for the chip, always has.

The valuation of the raptors essentially mirrors the exact same increases of the league average YoY.

Raptors year by year
Average franchise value of NBA teams

See if you can spot the difference, spoiler alert, there really isn't one.

So you even admit Masai did in fact have a positive impact on our valuation of our franchise…

I never said he didn't. I was countering the false statement that the growth in value the team experienced was "largely due to Masai's successful tenure". I'm sure there was some value that could be attributed to him, it would be impossible to specify how much for obvious reasons. But there is zero evidence to suggest that it was overwhelmingly due to Masai's tenure. Unless he was moonlighting as a president of basketball ops for the other 29 teams at the same time who have all magically increased their value to roughly the same amount on average.

[Yeezus_]

Facts are not disingenuous just because they don't adhere to how you feel. Was there some impact from the chip to the value of the team, absolutely but trying to identify exactly how much that was is kinda impossible. Masai gets credit for the chip, always has.

The valuation of the raptors essentially mirrors the exact same increases of the league average YoY.

Raptors year by year
Average franchise value of NBA teams

See if you can spot the difference, spoiler alert, there really isn't one.

So you even admit Masai did in fact have a positive impact on our valuation of our franchise…

I never said he didn't. I was countering the false statement that the growth in value the team experienced was "largely due to Masai's successful tenure". I'm sure there was some value that could be attributed to him, it would be impossible to specify how much for obvious reasons. But there is zero evidence to suggest that it was overwhelmingly due to Masai's tenure. Unless he was moonlighting as a president of basketball ops for the other 29 teams at the same time who have all magically increased their value to roughly the same amount on average.

Jesus. You’re out here writing paragraphs because I used the word largely? Would it make you happy if I said “in part due to Masai’s tenure”? Will that make you stop nitpicking?

[Reeko]

I think the point is being missed here, ignoring the specific Rogers angle of it, every single non raps fan I've seen on both the general boards and reddit are saying essentially the same few things.

Weird they did it right after the draft.
They had no idea what direction the team was headed in.
Baffling/bad moves made and a bad team the last few years.

The latter 2 are pretty straight forward and if anything, not being a raps fan makes that a more objective viewpoint. It's also what a lot of people have been saying here. Whether or not Ed fired him cause he hates him, there was plenty of ammo to justify the firing.

It can be justified and rationalized. But this is why I said what I said, they're devoid of all context. Those other fans are looking at things on a surface level and believe that the firing was performance related when it wasn't, at least not to anyone who understands how cycles work. These guys don't understand that the reason why the moves have been so puzzling is because the FO was trying to thread the needle by attempting to be competitive in order to appease ownership, while also trying to rebuild. These non Raps fans are wondering why we didn't just do a proper rebuild, and that's because they don't understand that ownership, especially this one, was never going to allow that to happen.

This is where you lost me. I don't buy the excuse that everything was because of the ownership, Masai has never, in his entire career as an exec, performed a rebuild. He always re-tools, and every move made since the chip is on brand, they have just largely been bad moves. He's never overly valued FRPs, he always trades to get guys cause we can't get FA signings, and it definitely wasn't the ownership telling him to fill the team with people who can't shoot.

I cannot in good conscience try and pin this on the ownership. They were all Masai type moves, they just didn't pan out the way some of the others did. The ownership can be bad, and Masai doing a poor job are not mutually exclusive. Why did the ownership just suddenly decide to be up his ass? It's not like the stakes in MLSE changed in summer of 2019, hell they didn't even really change until 2024.

Credit does not get to be given to Masai for the good moves, and the bad stuff blamed on Rogers meddling.

Probably because he's never had to rebuild in his executive career. But it's common knowledge that he was on the verge of doing so had Dolan not nixed the Lowry trade to the Knicks.

Right they didn't change, but everyone knew it was coming and Masai and Co understood who it was they had to listen to years before MLSE actually switched hands.

You can't justify his firing for poor performance for 5 years post championship when Rogers has had the same guy running the Jays into the ground for the last 9 with literally nothing to show for it.

Ed doesn't care about winning at the highest levels. He wants the people he puts in power to be subservient to him, and if they should have some success don't ask for too much money on your next contract.

[Scase]

This is pretty disingenuous, sure many teams had their valuation sky rocket but there’s levels to it. We are now a top 10 valued teams in the league. And that is directly related to our winning and our championship which, even you can agree Masai was a huge part of.

Facts are not disingenuous just because they don't adhere to how you feel. Was there some impact from the chip to the value of the team, absolutely, but trying to identify exactly how much that was is kinda impossible. Masai gets credit for the chip, always has.

The valuation of the raptors essentially mirrors the exact same increases of the league average YoY.

Raptors year by year
Average franchise value of NBA teams

See if you can spot the difference, spoiler alert, there really isn't one.

According to this, Raptors grew their valuation at a ~24% CAGR from 2013 while the league average valuation grew at ~21.5% CAGR. If the Raptors had grown at league average, they would be valued at $3.5b. That's ~$900m of value created above league average.

Like I have said previously, I am not discounting that Masai had an impact. I am strongly disagreeing that the increase to the value of the team was largely due to Masai's tenure.

So you even admit Masai did in fact have a positive impact on our valuation of our franchise…

I never said he didn't. I was countering the false statement that the growth in value the team experienced was "largely due to Masai's successful tenure". I'm sure there was some value that could be attributed to him, it would be impossible to specify how much for obvious reasons. But there is zero evidence to suggest that it was overwhelmingly due to Masai's tenure. Unless he was moonlighting as a president of basketball ops for the other 29 teams at the same time who have all magically increased their value to roughly the same amount on average.

Jesus. You’re out here writing paragraphs because I used the word largely? Would it make you happy if I said “in part due to Masai’s tenure”? Will that make you stop nitpicking?

Yes, because those mean very distinctly different things. It's not nitpicking, it's basic English.

If a player goes from 20ppg to 21ppg and I say that's a massive jump, that's objectively wrong. If I say they had a small jump, that's factually accurate. Words mean things for a reason.

[ForeverTFC]

Facts are not disingenuous just because they don't adhere to how you feel. Was there some impact from the chip to the value of the team, absolutely, but trying to identify exactly how much that was is kinda impossible. Masai gets credit for the chip, always has.

The valuation of the raptors essentially mirrors the exact same increases of the league average YoY.

Raptors year by year
Average franchise value of NBA teams

See if you can spot the difference, spoiler alert, there really isn't one.

According to this, Raptors grew their valuation at a ~24% CAGR from 2013 while the league average valuation grew at ~21.5% CAGR. If the Raptors had grown at league average, they would be valued at $3.5b. That's ~$900m of value created above league average.

Like I have said previously, I am not discounting that Masai had an impact. I am strongly disagreeing that the increase to the value of the team was largely due to Masai's tenure.

I'm pretty sure Yeezus was thinking about it in a comparative sense and attributing the differential. The premise of his post still holds taken this way. BTW, that differential is not "small" - it accounts for >20% of the appreciation.

f a player goes from 20ppg to 21ppg and I say that's a massive jump, that's objectively wrong. If I say they had a small jump, that's factually accurate. Words mean things for a reason.

More like 20ppg to 24.5ppg. That's a pretty meaningful jump.

[Kingsway_fan]

Fk Ted rogers. Boycott jays and everything Rogers.

[Scase]

It can be justified and rationalized. But this is why I said what I said, they're devoid of all context. Those other fans are looking at things on a surface level and believe that the firing was performance related when it wasn't, at least not to anyone who understands how cycles work. These guys don't understand that the reason why the moves have been so puzzling is because the FO was trying to thread the needle by attempting to be competitive in order to appease ownership, while also trying to rebuild. These non Raps fans are wondering why we didn't just do a proper rebuild, and that's because they don't understand that ownership, especially this one, was never going to allow that to happen.

This is where you lost me. I don't buy the excuse that everything was because of the ownership, Masai has never, in his entire career as an exec, performed a rebuild. He always re-tools, and every move made since the chip is on brand, they have just largely been bad moves. He's never overly valued FRPs, he always trades to get guys cause we can't get FA signings, and it definitely wasn't the ownership telling him to fill the team with people who can't shoot.

I cannot in good conscience try and pin this on the ownership. They were all Masai type moves, they just didn't pan out the way some of the others did. The ownership can be bad, and Masai doing a poor job are not mutually exclusive. Why did the ownership just suddenly decide to be up his ass? It's not like the stakes in MLSE changed in summer of 2019, hell they didn't even really change until 2024.

Credit does not get to be given to Masai for the good moves, and the bad stuff blamed on Rogers meddling.

Probably because he's never had to rebuild in his executive career. But it's common knowledge that he was on the verge of doing so had Dolan not nixed the Lowry trade to the Knicks.

Right they didn't change, but everyone knew it was coming and Masai and Co understood who it was they had to listen to years before MLSE actually switched hands.

You can't justify his firing for poor performance for 5 years post championship when Rogers has had the same guy running the Jays into the ground for the last 9 with literally nothing to show for it.

Ed doesn't care about winning at the highest levels. He wants the people he puts in power to be subservient to him, and if they should have some success don't ask for too much money on your next contract.

That trade to the knicks was bringing back Raymond Felton, a 28 year old PG with 3 years left on his contract, that is not a rebuilding move my friend, that is the Masai Ujiri re-tool special. And honestly, it still doesn't change the fact that the ownership hating him/being bad, and him having a poor track record for the last 5 years are not mutually exclusive. A GM with a team in limbo like we've been for years would get most of them fired.

Ed Rogers is a douche, no two ways about it, but Masai wasn't earning his salary. If we were a top team in the east and he still fired him, have at it, that would be crystal clear, but that wasn't the case. Rogers has been crying about Masai's salary for years now, before he didn't have a leg to stand on, now he does. I don't doubt there was more than enough personal feelings to have to stoke the flames though.

The fact that so many people that aren't raps fans were not surprised in the slightest, just goes to show that his performance was more than enough of a reason to let him go.