ImageImageImageImageImage

Simmons: Yes or No?

Moderators: Alfred, 7 Footer, Reeko, lebron stopper, niQ, Morris_Shatford, DG88, gojoorange

Simmons: Yes or No?

Yes, landing Ben Simmons would be huge, go for it Masai
79
31%
GTFO Simmons is overrated and a cancer, do not want
172
69%
 
Total votes: 251

User avatar
ash_k
RealGM
Posts: 12,363
And1: 6,793
Joined: Apr 14, 2010
         

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#181 » by ash_k » Thu Sep 9, 2021 4:31 pm

vini_vidi_vici wrote:Who cares about awards, thats such a trite argument from like the 80s, IMO.

You clearly don't.
But NBA Players do:
One example.
Klay Thompson is not eligible to sign a "supermax" extension with the Warriors this summer because the shooting guard did not make an All-NBA team (the same goes for Draymond Green).
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
User avatar
vini_vidi_vici
RealGM
Posts: 14,940
And1: 15,914
Joined: Jun 29, 2006
 

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#182 » by vini_vidi_vici » Thu Sep 9, 2021 4:43 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:Who cares about awards, thats such a trite argument from like the 80s, IMO.
And we will see just how many awards he racks up playing on Minny or Sac when he's not in a major market and he's not playing with a top 3 overall big in the league.


Here...

All NBA 2nd and 3rd team.
4x ASG appearances.
8th/11th in MVP voting (consecutive yrs).
4x Top 20 in APG.
7x Top 20 in PPG.

Spoiler:
Do we want Derozan back?? Do we ignore the flaws??


More importantly than all this, id like to see him without Embiid before we project anything.
Image
iDRTG is terrible.
JB7
Pro Prospect
Posts: 933
And1: 148
Joined: Jun 03, 2002

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#183 » by JB7 » Thu Sep 9, 2021 4:43 pm

Jerry Lucas wrote:
Read on Twitter



People here really want this primadonna who thinks everything is gonna be handed to him with zero work required? Technically one could say it is his problem because if he didn't allow himself to get exposed as a net negative factor in the playoffs if you use Hack a Ben, his trade value definitely wouldn't be as low as it is right now. If he made any serious attempt throughout his career so far to improve his jumpshot/FT shooting/corner 3 his trade value definitely would not be as low as it is right now.

If the Raptors acquire him anyone who thinks he will magically improve under the Raptors development staff is delusional. The player has to want to improve to improve. And for those who think him not improving his shot is necessary, how much non-spacing do you think this team is gonna be able to get away with? Birch, Precious, Scottie, arguably Siakam if his 3pt shot doesn't return to previous form after coming back from his surgery...all non spacers.

And based on some of the mock trades I've seen in these Simmons threads (including guys like FVV/Boucher/Trent), why would we trade from our player pool of floor spacers, something we are seriously lacking and all contending teams need to have? It seems like some of you want to see a team with a worse offense than the Kevin O'Neill season.


Why would Simmons have any interest in improving his trade value? That just means the team he goes to will need to give up more assets, weakening them in the future, when Simmons is there.

If anything, like what most players do in this situation is try to weaken their trade value as much as possible to lessen what is moving the other way.
User avatar
vini_vidi_vici
RealGM
Posts: 14,940
And1: 15,914
Joined: Jun 29, 2006
 

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#184 » by vini_vidi_vici » Thu Sep 9, 2021 4:44 pm

ash_k wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:Who cares about awards, thats such a trite argument from like the 80s, IMO.

You clearly don't.
But NBA Players do:
One example.
Klay Thompson is not eligible to sign a "supermax" extension with the Warriors this summer because the shooting guard did not make an All-NBA team (the same goes for Draymond Green).


So when youre advocating for Ben SImmons, the reason it means something TO YOU, is because player bonuses are tied to it??

Im not even sure what kind of defense that is for the creditability of the award (the context), but okay.
Image
iDRTG is terrible.
User avatar
ash_k
RealGM
Posts: 12,363
And1: 6,793
Joined: Apr 14, 2010
         

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#185 » by ash_k » Thu Sep 9, 2021 5:04 pm

vini_vidi_vici wrote:
ash_k wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:Who cares about awards, thats such a trite argument from like the 80s, IMO.

You clearly don't.
But NBA Players do:
One example.
Klay Thompson is not eligible to sign a "supermax" extension with the Warriors this summer because the shooting guard did not make an All-NBA team (the same goes for Draymond Green).


So when youre advocating for Ben SImmons, the reason it means something TO YOU, is because player bonuses are tied to it??

Im not even sure what kind of defense that is for the creditability of the award (the context), but okay.

I was just responding to your statement about players accolades to judge players being more of a 80s (??) thing lol.
any regular NBA followers know that players want and care/all the best athletes want and care about those type of accolades.

Being an all-star, being a DPOY, being on all-teams, being a Ballon d'or - They all want that. What was the first thing LeBron said to new Laker Marc Gasol?! (see DPOY2013)
Lillard "cried" for years to be an All-Star. Rudy Gobert literally cried when he was still not selected. and on..and on.

It just indicates "you are one of the best players" and just like any professional sport: There are contractual incentives to keep players motivated. How much on Bonus money does Westbrook get for each triple-double?!?!
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
User avatar
vini_vidi_vici
RealGM
Posts: 14,940
And1: 15,914
Joined: Jun 29, 2006
 

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#186 » by vini_vidi_vici » Thu Sep 9, 2021 5:10 pm

ash_k wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:
ash_k wrote:You clearly don't.
But NBA Players do:
One example.


So when youre advocating for Ben SImmons, the reason it means something TO YOU, is because player bonuses are tied to it??

Im not even sure what kind of defense that is for the creditability of the award (the context), but okay.

I was just responding to your statement about players accolades to judge players being more of a 80s (??) thing lol.
any regular NBA followers know that players want and care/all the best athletes want and care about those type of accolades.

Being an all-star, being a DPOY, being on all-teams, being a Ballon d'or - They all want that. What was the first thing LeBron said to new Laker Marc Gasol?! (see DPOY2013)
Lillard "cried" for years to be an All-Star. Rudy Gobert literally cried when he was still not selected. and on..and on.

It just indicates "you are one of the best players" and just like any professional sport: There are contractual incentives to keep players motivated. How much on Bonus money does Westbrook get for each triple-double?!?!


The underlined is still left unanswered by you, because accolades arent a way to judge players.

Athletes care because their income is tied to it.

Image

It doesnt indicate that "you are one of the best players", and you havent even presented a cogent argument other than, surprise, PLAYERS LIKE $$$$. It does indicate who the media/players/etc.. (depending on the award) voted for though.
Image
iDRTG is terrible.
User avatar
ash_k
RealGM
Posts: 12,363
And1: 6,793
Joined: Apr 14, 2010
         

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#187 » by ash_k » Thu Sep 9, 2021 5:16 pm

vini_vidi_vici wrote:
ash_k wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:
So when youre advocating for Ben SImmons, the reason it means something TO YOU, is because player bonuses are tied to it??

Im not even sure what kind of defense that is for the creditability of the award (the context), but okay.

I was just responding to your statement about players accolades to judge players being more of a 80s (??) thing lol.
any regular NBA followers know that players want and care/all the best athletes want and care about those type of accolades.

Being an all-star, being a DPOY, being on all-teams, being a Ballon d'or - They all want that. What was the first thing LeBron said to new Laker Marc Gasol?! (see DPOY2013)
Lillard "cried" for years to be an All-Star. Rudy Gobert literally cried when he was still not selected. and on..and on.

It just indicates "you are one of the best players" and just like any professional sport: There are contractual incentives to keep players motivated. How much on Bonus money does Westbrook get for each triple-double?!?!


Spoiler:
The underlined is still left unanswered by you, because accolades arent a way to judge players.

Athletes care because their income is tied to it.

Image

It doesnt indicate that "you are one of the best players", and you havent even presented a cogent argument other than, surprise, PLAYERS LIKE $$$$. It does indicate who the media/players/etc.. (depending on the award) voted for though
.

30 plus years of NBA tells YOU otherwise
if you think something like
18× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2016)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
11× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2013)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000, 2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003, 2004, 2006–2011)
3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2001, 2002, 2012)
OR
4× NBA Most Valuable Player (2009, 2010, 2012, 2013)
17× NBA All-Star (2005–2021)
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008, 2018)
13× All-NBA First Team (2006, 2008–2018, 2020)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2005, 2007, 2021)
All-NBA Third Team (2019)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2014)
"does not indicate that you are one of the best players" then we have nothing else to talk about
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
User avatar
vini_vidi_vici
RealGM
Posts: 14,940
And1: 15,914
Joined: Jun 29, 2006
 

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#188 » by vini_vidi_vici » Thu Sep 9, 2021 5:20 pm

ash_k wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:
ash_k wrote:I was just responding to your statement about players accolades to judge players being more of a 80s (??) thing lol.
any regular NBA followers know that players want and care/all the best athletes want and care about those type of accolades.

Being an all-star, being a DPOY, being on all-teams, being a Ballon d'or - They all want that. What was the first thing LeBron said to new Laker Marc Gasol?! (see DPOY2013)
Lillard "cried" for years to be an All-Star. Rudy Gobert literally cried when he was still not selected. and on..and on.

It just indicates "you are one of the best players" and just like any professional sport: There are contractual incentives to keep players motivated. How much on Bonus money does Westbrook get for each triple-double?!?!


Spoiler:
The underlined is still left unanswered by you, because accolades arent a way to judge players.

Athletes care because their income is tied to it.

Image

It doesnt indicate that "you are one of the best players", and you havent even presented a cogent argument other than, surprise, PLAYERS LIKE $$$$. It does indicate who the media/players/etc.. (depending on the award) voted for though
.

30 plus years of NBA tells YOU otherwise
if you think something like
18× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2016)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
11× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2013)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000, 2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003, 2004, 2006–2011)
3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2001, 2002, 2012)
OR
4× NBA Most Valuable Player (2009, 2010, 2012, 2013)
17× NBA All-Star (2005–2021)
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008, 2018)
13× All-NBA First Team (2006, 2008–2018, 2020)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2005, 2007, 2021)
All-NBA Third Team (2019)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2014)
"does not indicate that you are one of the best players" then we have nothing else to talk about


Im not sure what that means.

Kobe has alot more ways to prove hes "one of the better players", than voted on awards.

Im not sure this anecdote proves anything, AGAIN.
Image
iDRTG is terrible.
User avatar
lolwut
General Manager
Posts: 7,515
And1: 11,509
Joined: Jun 28, 2009
 

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#189 » by lolwut » Thu Sep 9, 2021 7:49 pm

OG has never been on an NBA all defensive team. Does that take away his defensive value?

You can't say awards and accolades are a judge of player value if the lack of awards and accolades don't have the opposite effect.

Ultimately, it's a popularity contest, and there can only be so many winners. It says very little about the ones who didn't win.
2020-2021 FatherTracker™ - baby raptors looking to be adopted by a warm, loving family man
Image
User avatar
ash_k
RealGM
Posts: 12,363
And1: 6,793
Joined: Apr 14, 2010
         

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#190 » by ash_k » Thu Sep 9, 2021 8:26 pm

lolwut wrote:OG has never been on an NBA all defensive team. Does that take away his defensive value?

You can't say awards and accolades are a judge of player value if the lack of awards and accolades don't have the opposite effect.

Ultimately, it's a popularity contest, and there can only be so many winners. It says very little about the ones who didn't win.

hence the term "UNDERRATED". OG is currently an underrated defender .
Had he not missed that title run, folks would have a much better appreciation of his game, today. The matchup against the Sixers would have been totally different with him
The team obviously needs to be up in the standing as well. You are not going be on all nba-team/get one of those accolades "too many times" if you are at the bottom of the standings: It was already controversial enough to have both Tatum&Brown in the All-star spots when their team was not doing so well(slightly below .500 if I recall).
The Sixers were 1st seed (MVP runner-up Embiid and DPOY runner-up Ben ). That's how the NBA has always worked.
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
User avatar
lolwut
General Manager
Posts: 7,515
And1: 11,509
Joined: Jun 28, 2009
 

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#191 » by lolwut » Thu Sep 9, 2021 8:45 pm

ash_k wrote:
lolwut wrote:OG has never been on an NBA all defensive team. Does that take away his defensive value?

You can't say awards and accolades are a judge of player value if the lack of awards and accolades don't have the opposite effect.

Ultimately, it's a popularity contest, and there can only be so many winners. It says very little about the ones who didn't win.

hence the term "UNDERRATED". OG is currently an underrated defender .
Had he not missed that title run, folks would have a much better appreciation of his game, today. The matchup against the Sixers would have been totally different with him
The team obviously needs to be up in the standing as well. You are not going be on all nba-team/get one of those accolades "too many times" if you are at the bottom of the standings: It was already controversial enough to have both Tatum&Brown in the All-star spots when their team was not doing so well(slightly below .500 if I recall).
The Sixers were 1st seed (MVP runner-up Embiid and DPOY runner-up Ben ). That's how the NBA has always worked.

Just because he hasn't been recognized by awards doesn't necessarily mean he's underrated. The problem lies in the fact that there are limited amounts of awards that can be given out. It's a zero-sum game. If OG wins something, then that means another player will be left out. Does that player now become underrated?
2020-2021 FatherTracker™ - baby raptors looking to be adopted by a warm, loving family man
Image
User avatar
DeBrick
Senior
Posts: 700
And1: 697
Joined: Apr 10, 2014
     

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#192 » by DeBrick » Thu Sep 9, 2021 8:52 pm

JB7 wrote:
Jerry Lucas wrote:
Read on Twitter



People here really want this primadonna who thinks everything is gonna be handed to him with zero work required? Technically one could say it is his problem because if he didn't allow himself to get exposed as a net negative factor in the playoffs if you use Hack a Ben, his trade value definitely wouldn't be as low as it is right now. If he made any serious attempt throughout his career so far to improve his jumpshot/FT shooting/corner 3 his trade value definitely would not be as low as it is right now.

If the Raptors acquire him anyone who thinks he will magically improve under the Raptors development staff is delusional. The player has to want to improve to improve. And for those who think him not improving his shot is necessary, how much non-spacing do you think this team is gonna be able to get away with? Birch, Precious, Scottie, arguably Siakam if his 3pt shot doesn't return to previous form after coming back from his surgery...all non spacers.

And based on some of the mock trades I've seen in these Simmons threads (including guys like FVV/Boucher/Trent), why would we trade from our player pool of floor spacers, something we are seriously lacking and all contending teams need to have? It seems like some of you want to see a team with a worse offense than the Kevin O'Neill season.


Why would Simmons have any interest in improving his trade value? That just means the team he goes to will need to give up more assets, weakening them in the future, when Simmons is there.

If anything, like what most players do in this situation is try to weaken their trade value as much as possible to lessen what is moving the other way.

a la Vince Carter
Image
User avatar
Clay Davis
Analyst
Posts: 3,707
And1: 4,147
Joined: Nov 06, 2013
 

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#193 » by Clay Davis » Thu Sep 9, 2021 8:56 pm

ash_k wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:Who cares about awards, thats such a trite argument from like the 80s, IMO.

You clearly don't.
But NBA Players do:
One example.
Klay Thompson is not eligible to sign a "supermax" extension with the Warriors this summer because the shooting guard did not make an All-NBA team (the same goes for Draymond Green).


Here's some NBA players disagreeing with you.
We talkin' 'bout money laundering? In WEST BALTIMORE?!
User avatar
ash_k
RealGM
Posts: 12,363
And1: 6,793
Joined: Apr 14, 2010
         

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#194 » by ash_k » Thu Sep 9, 2021 9:20 pm

lolwut wrote:
ash_k wrote:
lolwut wrote:OG has never been on an NBA all defensive team. Does that take away his defensive value?

You can't say awards and accolades are a judge of player value if the lack of awards and accolades don't have the opposite effect.

Ultimately, it's a popularity contest, and there can only be so many winners. It says very little about the ones who didn't win.

hence the term "UNDERRATED". OG is currently an underrated defender .
Had he not missed that title run, folks would have a much better appreciation of his game, today. The matchup against the Sixers would have been totally different with him
The team obviously needs to be up in the standing as well. You are not going be on all nba-team/get one of those accolades "too many times" if you are at the bottom of the standings: It was already controversial enough to have both Tatum&Brown in the All-star spots when their team was not doing so well(slightly below .500 if I recall).
The Sixers were 1st seed (MVP runner-up Embiid and DPOY runner-up Ben ). That's how the NBA has always worked.

Just because he hasn't been recognized by awards doesn't necessarily mean he's underrated. The problem lies in the fact that there are limited amounts of awards that can be given out. It's a zero-sum game. If OG wins something, then that means another player will be left out. Does that player now become underrated?

We see him 82-game per year, we know what he has to offer.
OG had another opportunity to cement his status as a great defender against the Celtics but that did not really stand out (Tatum&Brown).
FVV is the best PG defender IMO(he is on the radar now with that 19.6ppg) but don't expect him nor OG to make defensive teams if we end up 10th seed. Those accolades go 95+% of the time to players on teams up in standings. That's the way it has always been! Best players win games.
This is LeBron 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)| He has not been the same great defender since and others have surpassed him in that regard)
I can remember hearing JJ Redick on his podcast talking about how Jrue Holiday was an underrated defender (just a few months ago) and I was like :
Are you sure ??.....2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2018, 2021) and NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2019) ? and we saw him and the Pelicans lock down Lillard in the playoffs (locked him up! :lol: ).
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
User avatar
Badonkadonk
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,807
And1: 8,706
Joined: Jul 11, 2012

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#195 » by Badonkadonk » Thu Sep 9, 2021 9:22 pm

I put zero stock in those end of season awards, especially all-star appearances and anything voted on by journos.

Andre Drummond received a 1st team All-NBA D award LAST YEAR and was all NBA 5 years ago, despite being unplayable in the playoffs.

You can talk about Simmons boxscore stats and popularity all you want, but the reality is that he's too easy to game-plan in the playoffs. Guards who cannot shoot, and who have shown zero upward trajectory to improve in that area, are a big problem when it matters.

I really don't care if Morey comes to grips with that, but he'll be stuck with deals he doesn't like until he does.
Image
User avatar
ash_k
RealGM
Posts: 12,363
And1: 6,793
Joined: Apr 14, 2010
         

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#196 » by ash_k » Thu Sep 9, 2021 9:27 pm

Clay Davis wrote:
ash_k wrote:
vini_vidi_vici wrote:Who cares about awards, thats such a trite argument from like the 80s, IMO.

You clearly don't.
But NBA Players do:
One example.
Klay Thompson is not eligible to sign a "supermax" extension with the Warriors this summer because the shooting guard did not make an All-NBA team (the same goes for Draymond Green).


Here's some NBA players disagreeing with you.

That must be the same PODCAST i have just referred to :lol: .
Ash_k wrote:I can remember hearing JJ Redick on his podcast talking about how Jrue Holiday was an underrated defender (just a few months ago) and I was like :
Are you sure ??.....2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2018, 2021) and NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2019) ? and we saw him and the Pelicans lock down Lillard in the playoffs (locked him up! :lol: ).


Same Kevin Durant that was crying with his MVP trophy as best player that season. Anyway.
There is enough proof out there on how important those accolades matter to players and all serious athletes in General. NFL and such TO NOT WASTE ANY MORE TIME WITH THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC about accolades
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
User avatar
ash_k
RealGM
Posts: 12,363
And1: 6,793
Joined: Apr 14, 2010
         

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#197 » by ash_k » Thu Sep 9, 2021 9:44 pm

Badonkadonk wrote:I put zero stock in those end of season awards, especially all-star appearances and anything voted on by journos.

Andre Drummond received a 1st team All-NBA D award LAST YEAR and was all NBA 5 years ago, despite being unplayable in the playoffs.

You can talk about Simmons boxscore stats and popularity all you want, but the reality is that he's too easy to game-plan in the playoffs. Guards who cannot shoot, and who have shown zero upward trajectory to improve in that area, are a big problem when it matters.

I really don't care if Morey comes to grips with that, but he'll be stuck with deals he doesn't like until he does.

But you know your NBA history then you know there has been a shortage of bigs.
Drummond could not have sniffed an All-star spot during the days of Shaq, David Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon, etc...

But a big has to be selected and any big that can be "rebounding king" 4 out of 5 years!... has to be an all-star...while scoring 15+pts...has to be. 4× NBA rebounding leader (2016, 2018–2020)
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
User avatar
lolwut
General Manager
Posts: 7,515
And1: 11,509
Joined: Jun 28, 2009
 

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#198 » by lolwut » Thu Sep 9, 2021 9:52 pm

ash_k wrote:
lolwut wrote:
ash_k wrote:hence the term "UNDERRATED". OG is currently an underrated defender .
Had he not missed that title run, folks would have a much better appreciation of his game, today. The matchup against the Sixers would have been totally different with him
The team obviously needs to be up in the standing as well. You are not going be on all nba-team/get one of those accolades "too many times" if you are at the bottom of the standings: It was already controversial enough to have both Tatum&Brown in the All-star spots when their team was not doing so well(slightly below .500 if I recall).
The Sixers were 1st seed (MVP runner-up Embiid and DPOY runner-up Ben ). That's how the NBA has always worked.

Just because he hasn't been recognized by awards doesn't necessarily mean he's underrated. The problem lies in the fact that there are limited amounts of awards that can be given out. It's a zero-sum game. If OG wins something, then that means another player will be left out. Does that player now become underrated?

We see him 82-game per year, we know what he has to offer.
OG had another opportunity to cement his status as a great defender against the Celtics but that did not really stand out (Tatum&Brown).
FVV is the best PG defender IMO(he is on the radar now with that 19.6ppg) but don't expect him nor OG to make defensive teams if we end up 10th seed. Those accolades go 95+% of the time to players on teams up in standings. That's the way it has always been! Best players win games.
This is LeBron 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)| He has not been the same great defender since and others have surpassed him in that regard)
I can remember hearing JJ Redick on his podcast talking about how Jrue Holiday was an underrated defender (just a few months ago) and I was like :
Are you sure ??.....2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2018, 2021) and NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2019) ? and we saw him and the Pelicans lock down Lillard in the playoffs (locked him up! :lol: ).

So doesn't that mean accolades are not a good measure of individual performance?
2020-2021 FatherTracker™ - baby raptors looking to be adopted by a warm, loving family man
Image
sidsid
Starter
Posts: 2,436
And1: 1,758
Joined: Jun 03, 2003

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#199 » by sidsid » Thu Sep 9, 2021 10:03 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
sidsid wrote:
I was agreeing with you that the C position remains by far the most important part of defense. It's just that the demands are so daunting now that only a handful of superstars create those big advantages in this era while the rest of the league makes due with barely functional half measures. Paying 20M for guys who have maybe three skills put together and liabilities everywhere else.

For the same reason that it's hard for Cs to play today - having to guard the entire floor - that's why the prototypical SF is thriving. Ben, like our other wings, isn't suited to play C for any sustained amount of time. But elite playoff offenses will force teams centers to run out on shooters, or be switched on a island with a perimeter player, etc.

Who is more suited to:
- switch and box out a C
- contest the diving C on the switch, or from the weak side on a pnr lob attempt
- rotate to contest a layup attempt from Paul George at the rim on a long possession
- grab a no-boxout 50/50 ball in the paint against Lebron
- force Kawhi to relocate on a 3pta runout

That's just the individual stuff, before getting to what defensive strategies you can try when all 5 players can do this to varying degrees on the court. That's the advantage. And almost no teams (the Clippers have a shot at this this year) have the talent to actually do it. Sure, you can find Stanley Johnsons all over the place, but they're not playing much deep in the playoffs, same as heat check guards. The OGs are, and they're an indispensable 40 minutes locked in with a pretty low skill floor.

Now Ben, like DeRozan, is still so flawed right now that you can't play him in the 4th. But his non-shooting offensive skills are something we can only dream of Barnes reaching, while we teach Barnes how to shoot. I'd trade for Ben just to teach him FTs (at that point elite handles/playmaking pays off because you're not afraid of the rim anymore). Yeah, it would still be harder to build around, but you immediately have a better trade asset once it happens even if you want to go another direction. You're trading for a chance to develop a higher ceiling.


Okay after reading this I think your mistake is that you seem to be conflating utility with value. Ben's defensive versatility isn't valuable, because Rondae Hollis-Jefferson can do what he does. A team can't have 5 Rondaes, but they also can't have 5 Ben Simmons. His value is as a point guard. Unfortunately, there's no evidence that a non-shooting point guard is capable of leading teams to deep playoff runs.

The next mistake here is that you seem think that the issue is that he's afraid of the rim, and that's largely situational but not at all born out by the statistics. He takes 7 FGAs within 5 feet, and that's excellent. And that doesn't really decrease significantly in the playoffs, either. The biggest issue is that he doesn't shoot, and you'll have to find a historical comp this century for a lead ballhandler that doesn't exist as a threat outside the paint. So, that makes him not very useful on offense.


Yes, the current value of Ben's defense isn't enough to make him very valuable because his liabilities on offense are bringing down his overall value. I've been making the same arguments there as you (it's why you don't trade Siakam for him unless a catalyst for the trade is present). But that doesn't mean those defensive advantages don't exist. That's why the league is filled with teams trying to to turn the Stanley Johnsons' into offensive contributors.

The positional argument isn't the issue either; we're going position-less :) . He has ball-handling skills, but like we saw with Giannis in the playoffs, you don't want them to constantly have the ball even if they can do this. You can still extract offensive impact with a guy that size off-ball (this is also where the Rondo comparisons fall apart, and just shows how much skill value small guards need to bring compared to wings in order to be as impactful).

Lastly, I'd love for Ben to be able to shoot at some point, but it's still not the main reason for his playoff woes. Giannis' willingness to take those mediocre open 3s were flat out counterproductive in the playoffs. Giannis is perfectly viable, if flawed, as a superstar without most of these offensive skills. He would be completely unviable if your talented ballhandler was afraid of the ball in 4th quarters. Avoided touching it because of a hack-a-Ben strat that only comes around in the playoffs. Turns down dunks because of it. Has his coach agonize over benching him in the last 6 minutes. Having to absolutely do offense/defense subs in between timeouts with 2 minutes to go. That's the killer for your max player. The Sixers were perfectly fine rolling to the top of the east with the very same Ben in the regular season.

We weren't benching DeRozan in 4th quarters during the regular season either. That was a playoff induced reality exposing a player's liabilities.

I know I brought up Giannis and it's not to say that he's going to be a 30 point dynamo. He'd be a perfectly fine all star 18ish point triple double threat if he fixed just his 4th quarter (I say FT related) fears in the playoffs. If he learns how to shoot? Forget it.

If you think even modest improvements are possible, that's easily worth your undersized role playing guard who has his own set of ceiling crippling liabilities in the playoffs, but without the obvious avenues to improve them. But I can see why Ben's demeanor and track record would bring someone to say that won't happen and that he may even get worse. That's the only counter argument and a viable one.
User avatar
Clay Davis
Analyst
Posts: 3,707
And1: 4,147
Joined: Nov 06, 2013
 

Re: Simmons: Yes or No? 

Post#200 » by Clay Davis » Thu Sep 9, 2021 10:11 pm

ash_k wrote:
Clay Davis wrote:
ash_k wrote:You clearly don't.
But NBA Players do:
One example.


Here's some NBA players disagreeing with you.
Ash_k wrote:I can remember hearing JJ Redick on his podcast talking about how Jrue Holiday was an underrated defender (just a few months ago) and I was like :
Are you sure ??.....2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2018, 2021) and NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2019) ? and we saw him and the Pelicans lock down Lillard in the playoffs (locked him up! ).


Same Kevin Durant that was crying with his MVP trophy as best player that season. Anyway.
There is enough proof out there on how important those accolades matter to players and all serious athletes in General. NFL and such TO NOT WASTE ANY MORE TIME WITH THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC about accolades
You might want to pay more attention to where he said what the media and awards imply about defensive prowess are not in line with what players themselves think. You literally ignored the entire tirade about how what the media considers good defense and what players do are not in line.

Otherwise, Jrue would have a better performance in DPOY voting than Simmons. At the time of the podcast, Jrue only had a single first team selection. I understand why this conversation is getting frustrating for you; eventually it'll become more glaringly obvious how selective you're being



Sent from my moto g(8) power lite using RealGM mobile app
We talkin' 'bout money laundering? In WEST BALTIMORE?!

Return to Toronto Raptors