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vini_vidi_vici wrote:Who cares about awards, thats such a trite argument from like the 80s, IMO.
Klay Thompson is not eligible to sign a "supermax" extension with the Warriors this summer because the shooting guard did not make an All-NBA team (the same goes for Draymond Green).
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
OakleyDokely wrote:And we will see just how many awards he racks up playing on Minny or Sac when he's not in a major market and he's not playing with a top 3 overall big in the league.vini_vidi_vici wrote:Who cares about awards, thats such a trite argument from like the 80s, IMO.
Jerry Lucas wrote:
People here really want this primadonna who thinks everything is gonna be handed to him with zero work required? Technically one could say it is his problem because if he didn't allow himself to get exposed as a net negative factor in the playoffs if you use Hack a Ben, his trade value definitely wouldn't be as low as it is right now. If he made any serious attempt throughout his career so far to improve his jumpshot/FT shooting/corner 3 his trade value definitely would not be as low as it is right now.
If the Raptors acquire him anyone who thinks he will magically improve under the Raptors development staff is delusional. The player has to want to improve to improve. And for those who think him not improving his shot is necessary, how much non-spacing do you think this team is gonna be able to get away with? Birch, Precious, Scottie, arguably Siakam if his 3pt shot doesn't return to previous form after coming back from his surgery...all non spacers.
And based on some of the mock trades I've seen in these Simmons threads (including guys like FVV/Boucher/Trent), why would we trade from our player pool of floor spacers, something we are seriously lacking and all contending teams need to have? It seems like some of you want to see a team with a worse offense than the Kevin O'Neill season.
ash_k wrote:vini_vidi_vici wrote:Who cares about awards, thats such a trite argument from like the 80s, IMO.
You clearly don't.
But NBA Players do:
One example.Klay Thompson is not eligible to sign a "supermax" extension with the Warriors this summer because the shooting guard did not make an All-NBA team (the same goes for Draymond Green).
vini_vidi_vici wrote:ash_k wrote:vini_vidi_vici wrote:Who cares about awards, thats such a trite argument from like the 80s, IMO.
You clearly don't.
But NBA Players do:
One example.Klay Thompson is not eligible to sign a "supermax" extension with the Warriors this summer because the shooting guard did not make an All-NBA team (the same goes for Draymond Green).
So when youre advocating for Ben SImmons, the reason it means something TO YOU, is because player bonuses are tied to it??
Im not even sure what kind of defense that is for the creditability of the award (the context), but okay.
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
ash_k wrote:vini_vidi_vici wrote:ash_k wrote:You clearly don't.
But NBA Players do:
One example.
So when youre advocating for Ben SImmons, the reason it means something TO YOU, is because player bonuses are tied to it??
Im not even sure what kind of defense that is for the creditability of the award (the context), but okay.
I was just responding to your statement about players accolades to judge players being more of a 80s (??) thing lol.
any regular NBA followers know that players want and care/all the best athletes want and care about those type of accolades.
Being an all-star, being a DPOY, being on all-teams, being a Ballon d'or - They all want that. What was the first thing LeBron said to new Laker Marc Gasol?! (see DPOY2013)
Lillard "cried" for years to be an All-Star. Rudy Gobert literally cried when he was still not selected. and on..and on.
It just indicates "you are one of the best players" and just like any professional sport: There are contractual incentives to keep players motivated. How much on Bonus money does Westbrook get for each triple-double?!?!
vini_vidi_vici wrote:ash_k wrote:vini_vidi_vici wrote:
So when youre advocating for Ben SImmons, the reason it means something TO YOU, is because player bonuses are tied to it??
Im not even sure what kind of defense that is for the creditability of the award (the context), but okay.
I was just responding to your statement about players accolades to judge players being more of a 80s (??) thing lol.
any regular NBA followers know that players want and care/all the best athletes want and care about those type of accolades.
Being an all-star, being a DPOY, being on all-teams, being a Ballon d'or - They all want that. What was the first thing LeBron said to new Laker Marc Gasol?! (see DPOY2013)
Lillard "cried" for years to be an All-Star. Rudy Gobert literally cried when he was still not selected. and on..and on.
It just indicates "you are one of the best players" and just like any professional sport: There are contractual incentives to keep players motivated. How much on Bonus money does Westbrook get for each triple-double?!?!.Spoiler:
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
ash_k wrote:vini_vidi_vici wrote:ash_k wrote:I was just responding to your statement about players accolades to judge players being more of a 80s (??) thing lol.
any regular NBA followers know that players want and care/all the best athletes want and care about those type of accolades.
Being an all-star, being a DPOY, being on all-teams, being a Ballon d'or - They all want that. What was the first thing LeBron said to new Laker Marc Gasol?! (see DPOY2013)
Lillard "cried" for years to be an All-Star. Rudy Gobert literally cried when he was still not selected. and on..and on.
It just indicates "you are one of the best players" and just like any professional sport: There are contractual incentives to keep players motivated. How much on Bonus money does Westbrook get for each triple-double?!?!.Spoiler:
30 plus years of NBA tells YOU otherwise
if you think something like
18× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2016)
4× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
11× All-NBA First Team (2002–2004, 2006–2013)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000, 2001)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003, 2004, 2006–2011)
3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2001, 2002, 2012)
OR
4× NBA Most Valuable Player (2009, 2010, 2012, 2013)
17× NBA All-Star (2005–2021)
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008, 2018)
13× All-NBA First Team (2006, 2008–2018, 2020)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2005, 2007, 2021)
All-NBA Third Team (2019)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2014)
"does not indicate that you are one of the best players" then we have nothing else to talk about
lolwut wrote:OG has never been on an NBA all defensive team. Does that take away his defensive value?
You can't say awards and accolades are a judge of player value if the lack of awards and accolades don't have the opposite effect.
Ultimately, it's a popularity contest, and there can only be so many winners. It says very little about the ones who didn't win.
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
ash_k wrote:lolwut wrote:OG has never been on an NBA all defensive team. Does that take away his defensive value?
You can't say awards and accolades are a judge of player value if the lack of awards and accolades don't have the opposite effect.
Ultimately, it's a popularity contest, and there can only be so many winners. It says very little about the ones who didn't win.
hence the term "UNDERRATED". OG is currently an underrated defender .
Had he not missed that title run, folks would have a much better appreciation of his game, today. The matchup against the Sixers would have been totally different with him
The team obviously needs to be up in the standing as well. You are not going be on all nba-team/get one of those accolades "too many times" if you are at the bottom of the standings: It was already controversial enough to have both Tatum&Brown in the All-star spots when their team was not doing so well(slightly below .500 if I recall).
The Sixers were 1st seed (MVP runner-up Embiid and DPOY runner-up Ben ). That's how the NBA has always worked.
JB7 wrote:Jerry Lucas wrote:
People here really want this primadonna who thinks everything is gonna be handed to him with zero work required? Technically one could say it is his problem because if he didn't allow himself to get exposed as a net negative factor in the playoffs if you use Hack a Ben, his trade value definitely wouldn't be as low as it is right now. If he made any serious attempt throughout his career so far to improve his jumpshot/FT shooting/corner 3 his trade value definitely would not be as low as it is right now.
If the Raptors acquire him anyone who thinks he will magically improve under the Raptors development staff is delusional. The player has to want to improve to improve. And for those who think him not improving his shot is necessary, how much non-spacing do you think this team is gonna be able to get away with? Birch, Precious, Scottie, arguably Siakam if his 3pt shot doesn't return to previous form after coming back from his surgery...all non spacers.
And based on some of the mock trades I've seen in these Simmons threads (including guys like FVV/Boucher/Trent), why would we trade from our player pool of floor spacers, something we are seriously lacking and all contending teams need to have? It seems like some of you want to see a team with a worse offense than the Kevin O'Neill season.
Why would Simmons have any interest in improving his trade value? That just means the team he goes to will need to give up more assets, weakening them in the future, when Simmons is there.
If anything, like what most players do in this situation is try to weaken their trade value as much as possible to lessen what is moving the other way.
ash_k wrote:vini_vidi_vici wrote:Who cares about awards, thats such a trite argument from like the 80s, IMO.
You clearly don't.
But NBA Players do:
One example.Klay Thompson is not eligible to sign a "supermax" extension with the Warriors this summer because the shooting guard did not make an All-NBA team (the same goes for Draymond Green).
Steelo Green wrote:People are expecting way too much from Barnes out of the get go. He is a project player who will need 2-3 years before he makes a major impact.
lolwut wrote:ash_k wrote:lolwut wrote:OG has never been on an NBA all defensive team. Does that take away his defensive value?
You can't say awards and accolades are a judge of player value if the lack of awards and accolades don't have the opposite effect.
Ultimately, it's a popularity contest, and there can only be so many winners. It says very little about the ones who didn't win.
hence the term "UNDERRATED". OG is currently an underrated defender .
Had he not missed that title run, folks would have a much better appreciation of his game, today. The matchup against the Sixers would have been totally different with him
The team obviously needs to be up in the standing as well. You are not going be on all nba-team/get one of those accolades "too many times" if you are at the bottom of the standings: It was already controversial enough to have both Tatum&Brown in the All-star spots when their team was not doing so well(slightly below .500 if I recall).
The Sixers were 1st seed (MVP runner-up Embiid and DPOY runner-up Ben ). That's how the NBA has always worked.
Just because he hasn't been recognized by awards doesn't necessarily mean he's underrated. The problem lies in the fact that there are limited amounts of awards that can be given out. It's a zero-sum game. If OG wins something, then that means another player will be left out. Does that player now become underrated?
).Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
Clay Davis wrote:ash_k wrote:vini_vidi_vici wrote:Who cares about awards, thats such a trite argument from like the 80s, IMO.
You clearly don't.
But NBA Players do:
One example.Klay Thompson is not eligible to sign a "supermax" extension with the Warriors this summer because the shooting guard did not make an All-NBA team (the same goes for Draymond Green).
Here's some NBA players disagreeing with you.
.Ash_k wrote:I can remember hearing JJ Redick on his podcast talking about how Jrue Holiday was an underrated defender (just a few months ago) and I was like :
Are you sure ??.....2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2018, 2021) and NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2019) ? and we saw him and the Pelicans lock down Lillard in the playoffs (locked him up!
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
Badonkadonk wrote:I put zero stock in those end of season awards, especially all-star appearances and anything voted on by journos.
Andre Drummond received a 1st team All-NBA D award LAST YEAR and was all NBA 5 years ago, despite being unplayable in the playoffs.
You can talk about Simmons boxscore stats and popularity all you want, but the reality is that he's too easy to game-plan in the playoffs. Guards who cannot shoot, and who have shown zero upward trajectory to improve in that area, are a big problem when it matters.
I really don't care if Morey comes to grips with that, but he'll be stuck with deals he doesn't like until he does.
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
ash_k wrote:lolwut wrote:ash_k wrote:hence the term "UNDERRATED". OG is currently an underrated defender .
Had he not missed that title run, folks would have a much better appreciation of his game, today. The matchup against the Sixers would have been totally different with him
The team obviously needs to be up in the standing as well. You are not going be on all nba-team/get one of those accolades "too many times" if you are at the bottom of the standings: It was already controversial enough to have both Tatum&Brown in the All-star spots when their team was not doing so well(slightly below .500 if I recall).
The Sixers were 1st seed (MVP runner-up Embiid and DPOY runner-up Ben ). That's how the NBA has always worked.
Just because he hasn't been recognized by awards doesn't necessarily mean he's underrated. The problem lies in the fact that there are limited amounts of awards that can be given out. It's a zero-sum game. If OG wins something, then that means another player will be left out. Does that player now become underrated?
We see him 82-game per year, we know what he has to offer.
OG had another opportunity to cement his status as a great defender against the Celtics but that did not really stand out (Tatum&Brown).
FVV is the best PG defender IMO(he is on the radar now with that 19.6ppg) but don't expect him nor OG to make defensive teams if we end up 10th seed. Those accolades go 95+% of the time to players on teams up in standings. That's the way it has always been! Best players win games.
This is LeBron 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)| He has not been the same great defender since and others have surpassed him in that regard)
I can remember hearing JJ Redick on his podcast talking about how Jrue Holiday was an underrated defender (just a few months ago) and I was like :
Are you sure ??.....2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2018, 2021) and NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2019) ? and we saw him and the Pelicans lock down Lillard in the playoffs (locked him up!
ATLTimekeeper wrote:sidsid wrote:
I was agreeing with you that the C position remains by far the most important part of defense. It's just that the demands are so daunting now that only a handful of superstars create those big advantages in this era while the rest of the league makes due with barely functional half measures. Paying 20M for guys who have maybe three skills put together and liabilities everywhere else.
For the same reason that it's hard for Cs to play today - having to guard the entire floor - that's why the prototypical SF is thriving. Ben, like our other wings, isn't suited to play C for any sustained amount of time. But elite playoff offenses will force teams centers to run out on shooters, or be switched on a island with a perimeter player, etc.
Who is more suited to:
- switch and box out a C
- contest the diving C on the switch, or from the weak side on a pnr lob attempt
- rotate to contest a layup attempt from Paul George at the rim on a long possession
- grab a no-boxout 50/50 ball in the paint against Lebron
- force Kawhi to relocate on a 3pta runout
That's just the individual stuff, before getting to what defensive strategies you can try when all 5 players can do this to varying degrees on the court. That's the advantage. And almost no teams (the Clippers have a shot at this this year) have the talent to actually do it. Sure, you can find Stanley Johnsons all over the place, but they're not playing much deep in the playoffs, same as heat check guards. The OGs are, and they're an indispensable 40 minutes locked in with a pretty low skill floor.
Now Ben, like DeRozan, is still so flawed right now that you can't play him in the 4th. But his non-shooting offensive skills are something we can only dream of Barnes reaching, while we teach Barnes how to shoot. I'd trade for Ben just to teach him FTs (at that point elite handles/playmaking pays off because you're not afraid of the rim anymore). Yeah, it would still be harder to build around, but you immediately have a better trade asset once it happens even if you want to go another direction. You're trading for a chance to develop a higher ceiling.
Okay after reading this I think your mistake is that you seem to be conflating utility with value. Ben's defensive versatility isn't valuable, because Rondae Hollis-Jefferson can do what he does. A team can't have 5 Rondaes, but they also can't have 5 Ben Simmons. His value is as a point guard. Unfortunately, there's no evidence that a non-shooting point guard is capable of leading teams to deep playoff runs.
The next mistake here is that you seem think that the issue is that he's afraid of the rim, and that's largely situational but not at all born out by the statistics. He takes 7 FGAs within 5 feet, and that's excellent. And that doesn't really decrease significantly in the playoffs, either. The biggest issue is that he doesn't shoot, and you'll have to find a historical comp this century for a lead ballhandler that doesn't exist as a threat outside the paint. So, that makes him not very useful on offense.
. He has ball-handling skills, but like we saw with Giannis in the playoffs, you don't want them to constantly have the ball even if they can do this. You can still extract offensive impact with a guy that size off-ball (this is also where the Rondo comparisons fall apart, and just shows how much skill value small guards need to bring compared to wings in order to be as impactful). You might want to pay more attention to where he said what the media and awards imply about defensive prowess are not in line with what players themselves think. You literally ignored the entire tirade about how what the media considers good defense and what players do are not in line.ash_k wrote:Clay Davis wrote:ash_k wrote:You clearly don't.
But NBA Players do:
One example.
Here's some NBA players disagreeing with you.Ash_k wrote:I can remember hearing JJ Redick on his podcast talking about how Jrue Holiday was an underrated defender (just a few months ago) and I was like :
Are you sure ??.....2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2018, 2021) and NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2019) ? and we saw him and the Pelicans lock down Lillard in the playoffs (locked him up!).
Same Kevin Durant that was crying with his MVP trophy as best player that season. Anyway.
There is enough proof out there on how important those accolades matter to players and all serious athletes in General. NFL and such TO NOT WASTE ANY MORE TIME WITH THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC about accolades
Steelo Green wrote:People are expecting way too much from Barnes out of the get go. He is a project player who will need 2-3 years before he makes a major impact.
