The eastern conference standings

[closg00]

Jerry Stackhouse has been working out with Hawks players in Atlanta recently.

Stackhouse appeared in just 10 games for the Mavericks last season and was waived by the Grizzlies after being acquired in an offseason trade.

Sekou Smith of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution writes that Stackhouse has looked impressive in the workouts.

I wonder if Stack makes a comeback as a 6th man/vet off the bench with Joe Smith? Gotta respect ATL, I don't take them lightly.

[LyricalRico]

Jerry Stackhouse has been working out with Hawks players in Atlanta recently.

Stackhouse appeared in just 10 games for the Mavericks last season and was waived by the Grizzlies after being acquired in an offseason trade.

Sekou Smith of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution writes that Stackhouse has looked impressive in the workouts.

I wonder if Stack makes a comeback as a 6th man/vet off the bench with Joe Smith? Gotta respect ATL, I don't take them lightly.

Meh, I'll believe it when I see it. I'm not sure how much Stack has left, especially with those creaky knees. And even if he does have something, is it more than Atlanta will get from Crawford, Teague, or Evans? Probably not IMO. I think they'd be better of re-signing Flip Murray.

[ZonkertheBrainless]

Anyone read Jamison in the Wizards Insider today? He agrees with me. Anyone talking about 5th/6th in the east is reading too much into the 19 win team and not enough into the roster and coach that we'll be trotting out in 6 weeks.

53 wins is the floor. I'll be here to eat crow if necessary.

Most people who follow the Wizards will tell you WE expect over 46 wins this year.

Over at Bodog.com the Wizards are 60-1 to win it all. 20 bucks gets you 1200.

Wow. According to the rankings on that page, the zards are expected to be eigth in the east. I wouldn't bet on the zards winning the championship, but if there is a bet on the zards getting to the second round, if the odds reflect what you're getting here, than that would be easy money.

[doclinkin]

Anyone read Jamison in the Wizards Insider today? He agrees with me. Anyone talking about 5th/6th in the east is reading too much into the 19 win team and not enough into the roster and coach that we'll be trotting out in 6 weeks.
[emphasis added]
53 wins is the floor. I'll be here to eat crow if necessary.

Further- Turkoglu is more of a winner than Carter so there are questions there, Shaq is no longer the player he once was and may cause problems in Cleveland where chemistry was their biggest factor last yaer (outside of Lebron).

Kevin Garnett has still not been cleared to return. If you think a 33 year old with a knee problem is going to be healthy enough to play in the NBA full time you are kidding yourself. Boston's run is likely over.

Me, I said 5-6. Having little to do with last year's 19-win squad except as a referendum on our young players. (I expect Blatche will be much improved, but I expect that every year). Okay, improvement in our frontcourt defense hinges on one or the other of our young bigs stepping up significantly and pushing Jamison for PT. The additions of Foye and Miller have no effect there -- except in Miller's case by crowding the options at SF, thus mooting a few minutes for Tawn at the 3-spot, and Oberto vs Songaila is even change at best.

But the key reason for calming words on my part is the fact that you have zero players who have run in Flip's system, and our core group hasn't run in a traditional offensive set for a few years, certainly not with each other. The habits, the terminology, etc aren't grooved, the roles will have to be re-discovered or redefined. Will they adjust? Absolutely-- quickly? sure, could be. BUt you can't expect they will pick up where they left off three years ago-- in a new offense, new defense, new coach, new roles, etc. on a squad where they may actually battle for minutes and roles at their particular spot due to that improved depth and a different coaching philosophy.

I'm saying 5/6 but that the team's final record will not reflect their real top-end value. I don't care about early awkwardness, I just want good health and the squad to peak late, get hot when entering the playoffs.

On other squads. I agree on Turk's value, one reason why Toronto may hopscotch other teams and surprise a few people. One thing is certain we don't match up well with them defensively, though I'm pretty sure they can't keep up with us on offense either.

Orlando may slip, probably not though I think the loss of Rafer Alston hurts as much as the TurkVince swap. They will likely have a strong regular season record regardless, Dwight Howard is still some distance away from his peak. Going into the playoffs no matter where you project them they have to land in the top 3. Can't put the Wiz ahead of them in the reg season record. Where the loss of Turk hits most is in the postseason. Vince has not shown himself to be mentally strong, Turk was clutch when it was needed most.

On Boston's overness, Rondo's 30+ ppg outbursts in the playoffs would beg to differ. That's a significantly underrated two-way player (underrated by his frontoffice even) even while he catches accolades. He's one of the few small defenders who can give any trouble to DWade and DRose. Will Garnett miss time, probably. But the Wiz of all people have to be the last team to count on not having to push the 'if healthy' button. If Boston slips to 4, I still don't have the Wiz ahead of them.

Cleveland. They have personnel to play 3-5 different styles, and the most versatile superstar in the league. The primary thing holding them back is the eptitude and cojones of their Coach. But it's stupid to dismiss the Big Load on a slow-down half court squad. A less-healthy Shaq helped Miami to a championship, with a toe swole to sweet potato size. Have to call them top 3.

And every year there's a mystery cow. A dark horse candidate who shows up and surprises. Depth is not the same as superstar talent. If Gil is healthy and then some (better defender, better team leader) we have a potential candidate. Though again, he's never dominated in those all-star games that he squeaked into. That's what we all want to see most: the MVP conversation Gil. I never doubt him, never doubt that he can put together that kind of season, career, etc. Though it's fair to allow him room a cushion of games while he blows the crud out his carburetors and reminds himself of how HIbachi he can be at NBA speed (more than summer pick-ups with nothing on the line but pride). Point being players like DWade have already recuperated and knocked the rust off; players like DRose never had to. And so on. A team that has an established system and rotation etc can confidently pencil in a few wins on familiarity and chemistry alone.

So 5-6, I say, in an effort towards managing expectations. Though right, I expect we could get dangerously hot late, and then there's no telling what could happen except that our free agents could earn themselves significantly healthy pay raises...

..unless they want to give a discount to stay on a winning situation with a good group of guys. Mike Miller knows: it's a precious and rare thing to have a chance to play on a winning squad. Happiness can be better than cash.

[kirbs]

I think Courtney Lee is vastly underrated, and Orlando will be very sorry they lost him. Vince Carter is fools gold. My prediction is he plays matador defense all year, has a spectacular offensive game three or four times a year and ends up averaging about 18 ppg (same as Hedo will in Toronto). If the zards are healthy they could beat out Orlando.

Wasn't it Etan who always saved his best game of the season to play against Dwight Howard? How does Brendan do against him?

What exactly do you consider a "spectacular offensive game"? 40 points?

If so, you're probably right. But if you consider 30 points on 50%+ shooting to be spectacular, I can pretty much guarantee he will have more than 3-4 of those. His defense too is much better than Hedo's.

[JonathanJoseph]

Anyone read Jamison in the Wizards Insider today? He agrees with me. Anyone talking about 5th/6th in the east is reading too much into the 19 win team and not enough into the roster and coach that we'll be trotting out in 6 weeks.
[emphasis added]
53 wins is the floor. I'll be here to eat crow if necessary.

Further- Turkoglu is more of a winner than Carter so there are questions there, Shaq is no longer the player he once was and may cause problems in Cleveland where chemistry was their biggest factor last yaer (outside of Lebron).

Kevin Garnett has still not been cleared to return. If you think a 33 year old with a knee problem is going to be healthy enough to play in the NBA full time you are kidding yourself. Boston's run is likely over.

Me, I said 5-6. Having little to do with last year's 19-win squad except as a referendum on our young players. (I expect Blatche will be much improved, but I expect that every year). Okay, improvement in our frontcourt defense hinges on one or the other of our young bigs stepping up significantly and pushing Jamison for PT. The additions of Foye and Miller have no effect there -- except in Miller's case by crowding the options at SF, thus mooting a few minutes for Tawn at the 3-spot, and Oberto vs Songaila is even change at best.

But the key reason for calming words on my part is the fact that you have zero players who have run in Flip's system, and our core group hasn't run in a traditional offensive set for a few years, certainly not with each other. The habits, the terminology, etc aren't grooved, the roles will have to be re-discovered or redefined. Will they adjust? Absolutely-- quickly? sure, could be. BUt you can't expect they will pick up where they left off three years ago-- in a new offense, new defense, new coach, new roles, etc. on a squad where they may actually battle for minutes and roles at their particular spot due to that improved depth and a different coaching philosophy.

I'm saying 5/6 but that the team's final record will not reflect their real top-end value. I don't care about early awkwardness, I just want good health and the squad to peak late, get hot when entering the playoffs.

On other squads. I agree on Turk's value, one reason why Toronto may hopscotch other teams and surprise a few people. One thing is certain we don't match up well with them defensively, though I'm pretty sure they can't keep up with us on offense either.

Orlando may slip, probably not though I think the loss of Rafer Alston hurts as much as the TurkVince swap. They will likely have a strong regular season record regardless, Dwight Howard is still some distance away from his peak. Going into the playoffs no matter where you project them they have to land in the top 3. Can't put the Wiz ahead of them in the reg season record. Where the loss of Turk hits most is in the postseason. Vince has not shown himself to be mentally strong, Turk was clutch when it was needed most.

On Boston's overness, Rondo's 30+ ppg outbursts in the playoffs would beg to differ. That's a significantly underrated two-way player (underrated by his frontoffice even) even while he catches accolades. He's one of the few small defenders who can give any trouble to DWade and DRose. Will Garnett miss time, probably. But the Wiz of all people have to be the last team to count on not having to push the 'if healthy' button. If Boston slips to 4, I still don't have the Wiz ahead of them.

Cleveland. They have personnel to play 3-5 different styles, and the most versatile superstar in the league. The primary thing holding them back is the eptitude and cojones of their Coach. But it's stupid to dismiss the Big Load on a slow-down half court squad. A less-healthy Shaq helped Miami to a championship, with a toe swole to sweet potato size. Have to call them top 3.

And every year there's a mystery cow. A dark horse candidate who shows up and surprises. Depth is not the same as superstar talent. If Gil is healthy and then some (better defender, better team leader) we have a potential candidate. Though again, he's never dominated in those all-star games that he squeaked into. That's what we all want to see most: the MVP conversation Gil. I never doubt him, never doubt that he can put together that kind of season, career, etc. Though it's fair to allow him room a cushion of games while he blows the crud out his carburetors and reminds himself of how HIbachi he can be at NBA speed (more than summer pick-ups with nothing on the line but pride). Point being players like DWade have already recuperated and knocked the rust off; players like DRose never had to. And so on. A team that has an established system and rotation etc can confidently pencil in a few wins on familiarity and chemistry alone.

So 5-6, I say, in an effort towards managing expectations. Though right, I expect we could get dangerously hot late, and then there's no telling what could happen except that our free agents could earn themselves significantly healthy pay raises...

..unless they want to give a discount to stay on a winning situation with a good group of guys. Mike Miller knows: it's a precious and rare thing to have a chance to play on a winning squad. Happiness can be better than cash.

I'll buy a lot of that, but have two specific disagreements.

1) I believe that a healthy Arenas is a full MVP candidate. Arenas is only 27 now, and so when he was averaging 35 in a playoff series vs Lebron he was only 24/25. You've gotta keep the perspective that it took Michael Jordan 7 years to win his first championship. Arenas was definitely on a franchise player pace.

2) I think that you are really undervaluing Oberto, both as a player and a fit. Songaila, despite being 6'9'' had the offensive game of a soft 3, not a rugged post player. Oberto, whom Jamison called "nasty", is a superior post defender and I think will surprise as this team's Charles Oakley/Kurt Thomas/PJ Brown. Oberto gives us toughness and a very solid post player off the bench that we did not have with Songaila.

It will be interesting to see. The good news is either way it will be a great season for Wizards fans.

[LyricalRico]

2) I think that you are really undervaluing Oberto, both as a player and a fit. Songaila, despite being 6'9'' had the offensive game of a soft 3, not a rugged post player. Oberto, whom Jamison called "nasty", is a superior post defender and I think will surprise as this team's Charles Oakley/Kurt Thomas/PJ Brown. Oberto gives us toughness and a very solid post player off the bench that we did not have with Songaila.

I actually didn't have any problem with Songaila's game. Sure, he was a reliable jumpshooter, but he could also score inside and used his body well on defense. The problem was he just wasn't big enough to play center. That's the difference that Oberto brings (who I would argue is probably less skilled overall than Songaila). He actually has the size to play center without the team being considered in "small ball" mode.

[montestewart]

^ Songaila played out of position (apparently) without complaint. I never thought of him as soft; he certainly wasn't afraid of contact, and he had a little bit of a dirty streak. He was maybe overpaid, but when he was healthy, he was a decent 2-way PF backup, and I was sorry to see him go.

[keynote]

I wonder if Stack makes a comeback as a 6th man/vet off the bench with Joe Smith? Gotta respect ATL, I don't take them lightly.

Meh, I'll believe it when I see it. I'm not sure how much Stack has left, especially with those creaky knees. And even if he does have something, is it more than Atlanta will get from Crawford, Teague, or Evans? Probably not IMO. I think they'd be better of re-signing Flip Murray.

Agreed. Stack can't even pull off that deep squat before each FT.

[nate33]

^ Songaila played out of position (apparently) without complaint. I never thought of him as soft; he certainly wasn't afraid of contact, and he had a little bit of a dirty streak. He was maybe overpaid, but when he was healthy, he was a decent 2-way PF backup, and I was sorry to see him go.

Agreed. Songaila may have been slow, but he definitely wasn't soft.

I liked everything about Songaila's game except for the fact that you couldn't slip a dollar bill under his feet when he "jumped".

[montestewart]

^ Songaila played out of position (apparently) without complaint. I never thought of him as soft; he certainly wasn't afraid of contact, and he had a little bit of a dirty streak. He was maybe overpaid, but when he was healthy, he was a decent 2-way PF backup, and I was sorry to see him go.

Agreed. Songaila may have been slow, but he definitely wasn't soft.

I liked everything about Songaila's game except for the fact that you couldn't slip a dollar bill under his feet when he "jumped".

Pretty funny, and that limited his offensive game, but he was good at being open for jumpers, which may have made him seem soft at times. He was also good at making/finding a little space inside for layups, despite his ground-bound limitation, because he was tough and savvy. I think NO made a decent pickup with him. I could see him fitting in with SA or UT (if they moved Boozer).

[doclinkin]

1) I believe that a healthy Arenas is a full MVP candidate. Arenas is only 27 now, and so when he was averaging 35 in a playoff series vs Lebron he was only 24/25. You've gotta keep the perspective that it took Michael Jordan 7 years to win his first championship. Arenas was definitely on a franchise player pace.

2) I think that you are really undervaluing Oberto, both as a player and a fit. Songaila, despite being 6'9'' had the offensive game of a soft 3, not a rugged post player. Oberto, whom Jamison called "nasty", is a superior post defender and I think will surprise as this team's Charles Oakley/Kurt Thomas/PJ Brown. Oberto gives us toughness and a very solid post player off the bench that we did not have with Songaila.

It will be interesting to see. The good news is either way it will be a great season for Wizards fans.

In reverse order:

2) Oberto just had heart surgery. An article in a San Antonio paper I just quoted in the Media thread has him complaining that his chest feels tight and sometimes it feels like he can't breathe. He now is in the hands of the Wizards medical staff, at least in part. I'm hopeful for a swift and full recovery, he sounds like a nice guy, but heart surgery ain't a hangnail, there's a certain amount of thoracic scarring etc, it should take some time before he regained full stamina, even if he wasn't 34 years old. I'm hoping for a nice fit from Oberto, especially as a practice tutor and example for the young pups, but last year his skills dropped off the table considerably. Anything we get from him is great, but I'm not banking my team's record on him having a major effect -- seems like a bit of a stretch beyond the facts of the issue.

1) Love Gilbert, and I never doubt his will and desire. He's not an MVP candidate until he adds one of two things (or both):

Lockdown-quality defense every second he's on the floor.
Total team game. Passing, etc, so the team is greater than the sum of the parts.

If you check advanced stats of guys like DWade, LeBron, Chris Paul, they mix both high usage rate, efficient scoring, and high assist%'s. Not talking about simply high assist totals -- it's pretty easy to find examples of players who rack high assist totals by ball hogging. (Not Gil. I'm talking Marbury at his peak, Iverson on some teams, etc). Gilbert does have a positive effect in raising the efficiency of players next to him, on offense, simply because they're more likely to be open. It will be interesting to see how that translates into his leadership this year especially in a more traditional PG-driven system.

But true MVP candidates like Kobe, Dwade also add armor-clad defense. LeBron adds triple-double-threat rebounding. Gilbert, no question, can score with the best of 'em. But Mike Jordan needed to add the defensive ferocity to match his scoring output before players on other teams stopped saying 'yeah he can drop 61 in a losing effort, but what else does he do?'

Gilbert has the talent and low-self esteem to drive himself to become one of the best two-way all-court players in the league. Missing two years of the game that defines the shape of his happiness, hearing doubts and question marks, walking through the shadow of the valley of despair -- that should give him the drive to never be satisfied. He's got a roster of doubters to snipe down one by one. Can make a career out of shredding the doubts. I suspect simply being happy with scoring output will no longer be enough, until he's winning, sealing lips, not hearing the cheers but nailing doubts into coffins.

But it hasn't happened yet. Can't be counted in the assets column. Not with the hard-eyed assessment of an honest soul.

[Kanyewest]

DSong should fit in well where he is in New Orleans especially with Chris Paul running the point.

[JonathanJoseph]

1) I believe that a healthy Arenas is a full MVP candidate. Arenas is only 27 now, and so when he was averaging 35 in a playoff series vs Lebron he was only 24/25. You've gotta keep the perspective that it took Michael Jordan 7 years to win his first championship. Arenas was definitely on a franchise player pace.

2) I think that you are really undervaluing Oberto, both as a player and a fit. Songaila, despite being 6'9'' had the offensive game of a soft 3, not a rugged post player. Oberto, whom Jamison called "nasty", is a superior post defender and I think will surprise as this team's Charles Oakley/Kurt Thomas/PJ Brown. Oberto gives us toughness and a very solid post player off the bench that we did not have with Songaila.

It will be interesting to see. The good news is either way it will be a great season for Wizards fans.

In reverse order:

2) Oberto just had heart surgery. An article in a San Antonio paper I just quoted in the Media thread has him complaining that his chest feels tight and sometimes it feels like he can't breathe. He now is in the hands of the Wizards medical staff, at least in part. I'm hopeful for a swift and full recovery, he sounds like a nice guy, but heart surgery ain't a hangnail, there's a certain amount of thoracic scarring etc, it should take some time before he regained full stamina, even if he wasn't 34 years old. I'm hoping for a nice fit from Oberto, especially as a practice tutor and example for the young pups, but last year his skills dropped off the table considerably. Anything we get from him is great, but I'm not banking my team's record on him having a major effect -- seems like a bit of a stretch beyond the facts of the issue.

1) Love Gilbert, and I never doubt his will and desire. He's not an MVP candidate until he adds one of two things (or both):

Lockdown-quality defense every second he's on the floor.
Total team game. Passing, etc, so the team is greater than the sum of the parts.

If you check advanced stats of guys like DWade, LeBron, Chris Paul, they mix both high usage rate, efficient scoring, and high assist%'s. Not talking about simply high assist totals -- it's pretty easy to find examples of players who rack high assist totals by ball hogging. (Not Gil. I'm talking Marbury at his peak, Iverson on some teams, etc). Gilbert does have a positive effect in raising the efficiency of players next to him, on offense, simply because they're more likely to be open. It will be interesting to see how that translates into his leadership this year especially in a more traditional PG-driven system.

But true MVP candidates like Kobe, Dwade also add armor-clad defense. LeBron adds triple-double-threat rebounding. Gilbert, no question, can score with the best of 'em. But Mike Jordan needed to add the defensive ferocity to match his scoring output before players on other teams stopped saying 'yeah he can drop 61 in a losing effort, but what else does he do?'

Gilbert has the talent and low-self esteem to drive himself to become one of the best two-way all-court players in the league. Missing two years of the game that defines the shape of his happiness, hearing doubts and question marks, walking through the shadow of the valley of despair -- that should give him the drive to never be satisfied. He's got a roster of doubters to snipe down one by one. Can make a career out of shredding the doubts. I suspect simply being happy with scoring output will no longer be enough, until he's winning, sealing lips, not hearing the cheers but nailing doubts into coffins.

But it hasn't happened yet. Can't be counted in the assets column. Not with the hard-eyed assessment of an honest soul.

I'm not discounting Oberto's heart surgery, I am assuming that Grunfeld feels pretty good about Oberto's health since he was the Wizards primary target and was specifically chosen over Dejuan Blair by Grunfeld. I read somewhere that Roger Mason, who played with Oberto last year, said that Oberto would be a "sleeper" pick-up for the Wizards, and I assume he has a decent handle on Oberto's health. Grunfeld has shown himself to be pretty shrewd and calculated with regard to free agent acquisitions so I would be very surprised if he offered a contract to a player who is physically unable to contribute. Certainly possible though.

And while I would agree that Songaila was more "skilled" than Oberto, Oberto is still a better "fit" for the players on this roster. Songaila's smart, pick-and-pop, face-up game does not match well with Arenas, Butler, and Jamison who is a finesse player as well. Oberto's "nasty", setting picks, rebounding, style is a much better complement.

As for Arenas, I agree that it hasn't happened "yet". But I said that Arenas was on that "pace". Jordan won his first title at 27, which is how old Arenas is now. Obviously Arenas lost 2 years, but only now is Arenas supposed to be figuring out the "mental" part of the game beyond scoring 30ppg. Let's see what kind of defense Arenas plays for Flip before we assume that he doesn't.

[doclinkin]

I'm not discounting Oberto's heart surgery, I am assuming that Grunfeld feels pretty good about Oberto's health since he was the Wizards primary target


... so I would be very surprised if he offered a contract to a player who is physically unable to contribute.

This is what's known as irony, given the next player we're talking about:

As for Arenas, I agree that it hasn't happened "yet". But I said that Arenas was on that "pace". Jordan won his first title at 27, which is how old Arenas is now. Obviously Arenas lost 2 years, but only now is Arenas supposed to be figuring out the "mental" part of the game beyond scoring 30ppg. Let's see what kind of defense Arenas plays for Flip before we assume that he doesn't.

Or how about: let's see how Gilbert plays before we ink the squad in for 53 wins and swagger and get sassy. Give it time. I know our defense will be improved. I'd bet Gilbert's defensive habits will be better even if his knee rehab still gives him issues in the crouch and lateral shuffle. But I won't pretend there ain't a real question. Oh his behalf, not my own.

When players lose time to injury there is usually a period of adjustment before they rediscover their groove at the Big Time level. Gil says he expects he'll never be 100% of his old quickness, even if he ends up stronger, says when you crumple up a ball of paper there's no way you can get all the wrinkles out when you unfold it.

Now maybe he's 'fattening frogs for snakes' like they say, playing possum, but in the rehab videos we haven't yet seen the blazing speed, still recuperating. Stronger yes, but ain't no surety of Hibachi level certainty and swagger. We see determination in the face of doubt, but can't yet call it eradicated. Season hasn't started. Will he regain all his form? I bet he gets much of it. A 95% Gil is quicker than most. I'm saying give the guy and the squad breathing room to iron out those wrinkles before we hyperventilate on how much we're sure to win.

Love the excitement, love the enthusiasm. Ain't no naysayer, here. I'm just patient enough to give our boy an extra minute to flick all the switches in his test flight before he feels he's got to kick in the afterburners & go superorbital.

I'm not tryna rush, is all. Ready to watch it unfold in good time.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

^ Songaila played out of position (apparently) without complaint. I never thought of him as soft; he certainly wasn't afraid of contact, and he had a little bit of a dirty streak. He was maybe overpaid, but when he was healthy, he was a decent 2-way PF backup, and I was sorry to see him go.

Agreed. Songaila may have been slow, but he definitely wasn't soft.

I liked everything about Songaila's game except for the fact that you couldn't slip a dollar bill under his feet when he "jumped".

+2

I think Songaila, and not Tough Juice, was the toughest guy on the team last season. (Him or injured DeShawn. Either of those guys would have your back in a brawl IMO).

What Darius lacked in athleticism he more than made up for in tenacity and guile. He was an offensive baller and a guy who got the most defense out of his body that he could. Him being overmatched at C defensively wasn't his fault, because he's a PF all the way.

I'm happy that Darius got dealt to New Orleans...

He's going to be part of a revamped frontcourt around David West. They've picked up Okafor and Ike Diogu. With Paul dishing to him Darius should be fine in that role. The things Darius can really do is pick and pop, and also pass the ball. I think he's got a chance to see significant minutes on a contending team, unless Diogu really blows up.

[Zerocious]

^ Songaila played out of position (apparently) without complaint. I never thought of him as soft; he certainly wasn't afraid of contact, and he had a little bit of a dirty streak. He was maybe overpaid, but when he was healthy, he was a decent 2-way PF backup, and I was sorry to see him go.

Agreed. Songaila may have been slow, but he definitely wasn't soft.

I liked everything about Songaila's game except for the fact that you couldn't slip a dollar bill under his feet when he "jumped".

+2

I think Songaila, and not Tough Juice, was the toughest guy on the team last season. (Him or injured DeShawn. Either of those guys would have your back in a brawl IMO).

What Darius lacked in athleticism he more than made up for in tenacity and guile. He was an offensive baller and a guy who got the most defense out of his body that he could. Him being overmatched at C defensively wasn't his fault, because he's a PF all the way.

I'm happy that Darius got dealt to New Orleans...

He's going to be part of a revamped frontcourt around David West. They've picked up Okafor and Ike Diogu. With Paul dishing to him Darius should be fine in that role. The things Darius can really do is pick and pop, and also pass the ball. I think he's got a chance to see significant minutes on a contending team, unless Diogu really blows up.

'tough juice' was more like a 'soft drink'

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Me, I said 5-6. Having little to do with last year's 19-win squad except as a referendum on our young players. (I expect Blatche will be much improved, but I expect that every year). Okay, improvement in our frontcourt defense hinges on one or the other of our young bigs stepping up significantly and pushing Jamison for PT. The additions of Foye and Miller have no effect there -- except in Miller's case by crowding the options at SF, thus mooting a few minutes for Tawn at the 3-spot, and Oberto vs Songaila is even change at best.

But the key reason for calming words on my part is the fact that you have zero players who have run in Flip's system, and our core group hasn't run in a traditional offensive set for a few years, certainly not with each other. The habits, the terminology, etc aren't grooved, the roles will have to be re-discovered or redefined. Will they adjust? Absolutely-- quickly? sure, could be. BUt you can't expect they will pick up where they left off three years ago-- in a new offense, new defense, new coach, new roles, etc. on a squad where they may actually battle for minutes and roles at their particular spot due to that improved depth and a different coaching philosophy.

I'm saying 5/6 but that the team's final record will not reflect their real top-end value. I don't care about early awkwardness, I just want good health and the squad to peak late, get hot when entering the playoffs.

On other squads. I agree on Turk's value, one reason why Toronto may hopscotch other teams and surprise a few people. One thing is certain we don't match up well with them defensively, though I'm pretty sure they can't keep up with us on offense either.

Orlando may slip, probably not though I think the loss of Rafer Alston hurts as much as the TurkVince swap. They will likely have a strong regular season record regardless, Dwight Howard is still some distance away from his peak. Going into the playoffs no matter where you project them they have to land in the top 3. Can't put the Wiz ahead of them in the reg season record. Where the loss of Turk hits most is in the postseason. Vince has not shown himself to be mentally strong, Turk was clutch when it was needed most.

On Boston's overness, Rondo's 30+ ppg outbursts in the playoffs would beg to differ. That's a significantly underrated two-way player (underrated by his frontoffice even) even while he catches accolades. He's one of the few small defenders who can give any trouble to DWade and DRose. Will Garnett miss time, probably. But the Wiz of all people have to be the last team to count on not having to push the 'if healthy' button. If Boston slips to 4, I still don't have the Wiz ahead of them.

Cleveland. They have personnel to play 3-5 different styles, and the most versatile superstar in the league. The primary thing holding them back is the eptitude and cojones of their Coach. But it's stupid to dismiss the Big Load on a slow-down half court squad. A less-healthy Shaq helped Miami to a championship, with a toe swole to sweet potato size. Have to call them top 3.

And every year there's a mystery cow. A dark horse candidate who shows up and surprises. Depth is not the same as superstar talent. If Gil is healthy and then some (better defender, better team leader) we have a potential candidate. Though again, he's never dominated in those all-star games that he squeaked into. That's what we all want to see most: the MVP conversation Gil. I never doubt him, never doubt that he can put together that kind of season, career, etc. Though it's fair to allow him room a cushion of games while he blows the crud out his carburetors and reminds himself of how HIbachi he can be at NBA speed (more than summer pick-ups with nothing on the line but pride). Point being players like DWade have already recuperated and knocked the rust off; players like DRose never had to. And so on. A team that has an established system and rotation etc can confidently pencil in a few wins on familiarity and chemistry alone.

So 5-6, I say, in an effort towards managing expectations. Though right, I expect we could get dangerously hot late, and then there's no telling what could happen except that our free agents could earn themselves significantly healthy pay raises...

..unless they want to give a discount to stay on a winning situation with a good group of guys. Mike Miller knows: it's a precious and rare thing to have a chance to play on a winning squad. Happiness can be better than cash.

Since the Wizards are talking a bit much of late, today I think they might disappoint and come in as a 7 or 8 seed, with say, 42 wins.

Dark horses that I believe will surprise are Toronto, Detroit, and maybe D'Antoni's Knicks or the Nets. The more I think about the Raps, the better I think that team will be from additions they made. The Pistons added serious offensive talent, and have a tradeable asset in Hamilton or Prince. They can bolster they C position. And as for the Knicks, I see D'Antoni being able to coach them near .500.

Wizards are talking much too soon IMO.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

[

Agreed. Songaila may have been slow, but he definitely wasn't soft.

I liked everything about Songaila's game except for the fact that you couldn't slip a dollar bill under his feet when he "jumped".

+2

I think Songaila, and not Tough Juice, was the toughest guy on the team last season. (Him or injured DeShawn. Either of those guys would have your back in a brawl IMO).

What Darius lacked in athleticism he more than made up for in tenacity and guile. He was an offensive baller and a guy who got the most defense out of his body that he could. Him being overmatched at C defensively wasn't his fault, because he's a PF all the way.

I'm happy that Darius got dealt to New Orleans...

He's going to be part of a revamped frontcourt around David West. They've picked up Okafor and Ike Diogu. With Paul dishing to him Darius should be fine in that role. The things Darius can really do is pick and pop, and also pass the ball. I think he's got a chance to see significant minutes on a contending team, unless Diogu really blows up.

'tough juice' was more like a 'soft drink'

Pun and also very descriptive of how he played. I got upset with Caron's effort a few games last season....

(BTW Zero, I'm liking the mountain bike a lot! Thanks for suggesting I get myself one).

Soft drinks no more for Butler. (And me, too, now that I'm serious about the diet.)

I hope Caron's been drinking G2, water, and protein shakes man--all laced with Tough Juice, of course.

[Zerocious]

Pun and also very descriptive of how he played. I got upset with Caron's effort a few games last season....

(BTW Zero, I'm liking the mountain bike a lot! Thanks for suggesting I get myself one).

Soft drinks no more for Butler. (And me, too, now that I'm serious about the diet.)

I hope Caron's been drinking G2, water, and protein shakes man--all laced with Tough Juice, of course.

Cool CCJ! make sure to push yourself on that bike, you'll be surprised how much further you can go than you think. First time on mtbike <4miles, then 4.1M, 7M, 12M, 14M all within a hour and half to 2 hour time frame. And this is on the trails, not street. rocks, roots the whole shebang!

no soft drinks for me either! hard drinks is another story!