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Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE)

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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1901 » by bsilver » Fri May 17, 2019 11:01 pm

payitforward wrote:There is no abstract question "Would the Wizards be better off keeping Brad Beal or trading him?" Whether team X (any team in the league, the Wizards included) does or does not trade player Y (any player in the league, Bradley Beal included) comes down to one question only:

What does team X get in return for player Y.

Nothing else is relevant.

It's not about "is player Y at his peak or not?" It's not about "is player Y going to stay with our team until the planet crumbles at the end of time?" It's not about "is player Y a top 20 player in the league?" It's just about the deal.

I'll bite. Why?

The only reasons everyone is talking about trading Beal are the so-called irrelevants. Mainly, but not limited to:
We stink even with Beal.
We're in salary cap hell.
So, no hope for the future, unless Wall defies almost all predictions and returns to all-star level.

So, if we get the Beal equivalent (in 2-3 years) in young cheap assets, then you make the deal because added cap flexibility allows you to add others, so you're better off than keeping Beal. Also, but not guaranteed, you get better draft picks in next 2 years. The main drawback is you put out a bad team - say 20 wins vs a 25-30 win team with Beal. Despite that, I'd say "deal" was a no-brainrer.

The main problem is that we don't know the real 2-3 year value of the young cheaper assets at this time, but because of the irrelevants you have to try to make a deal. You could wait a while to trade to see how the young assets develop, but that gives everyone else the same information, so the deals you were considering aren't available.

For maximum reward/failure the best time to trade is now when there's so much unknown. Since the team will definitely fail anyway with Beal, take the chance.
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics — quote popularized by Mark Twain.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1902 » by nate33 » Sat May 18, 2019 12:12 am

bsilver wrote:I'll bite. Why?

The only reasons everyone is talking about trading Beal are the so-called irrelevants. Mainly, but not limited to:
We stink even with Beal.
We're in salary cap hell.
So, no hope for the future, unless Wall defies almost all predictions and returns to all-star level.

So, if we get the Beal equivalent (in 2-3 years) in young cheap assets, then you make the deal because added cap flexibility allows you to add others, so you're better off than keeping Beal. Also, but not guaranteed, you get better draft picks in next 2 years. The main drawback is you put out a bad team - say 20 wins vs a 25-30 win team with Beal. Despite that, I'd say "deal" was a no-brainrer.

The main problem is that we don't know the real 2-3 year value of the young cheaper assets at this time, but because of the irrelevants you have to try to make a deal. You could wait a while to trade to see how the young assets develop, but that gives everyone else the same information, so the deals you were considering aren't available.

For maximum reward/failure the best time to trade is now when there's so much unknown. Since the team will definitely fail anyway with Beal, take the chance.

First: we're not going to be adding any good free agents with or without Beal. We will never generate max level room unless we gut the roster to the point where we win 15 games, and no good free agent would join that. At best, if we dump Beal, we will be looking at mid-tier free agents in the $10-20M range, and those are suckers' bets. Mid tier free agents are almost always poor value. The value is clustered at the max contract, the vet minimum, and sometimes the MLE.

Second: we are not a 25-30 team with Beal. Last year, we were 30-40 through 70 games before a tanktastic finish (going 2-10). That's a 35-36 win pace. And that's with a rookie at center. Bryant is sure to be better next year. I think 35 wins is easily possible, unless we decide to tank the last 10 games if appropriate.

Third: Under the new lottery system, there is much less reward for extreme tanking. This year, finishing 7th, 8th, and 11th was better than finishing 2nd, 3rd and 4th. You get better by steadily improving and occasionally getting lucky in the draft. Even if our window is 3 or 4 years down the road, I don't see how we'll be better then if we dump our All-NBA 25-year old combo guard now. Not unless we trade him for a younger All-NBA caliber talent, of which there are very few available.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1903 » by DCZards » Sat May 18, 2019 1:02 am

nate33 wrote:
Second: we are not a 25-30 team with Beal. Last year, we were 30-40 through 70 games before a tanktastic finish (going 2-10). That's a 35-36 win pace. And that's with a rookie at center. Bryant is sure to be better next year. I think 35 wins is easily possible, unless we decide to tank the last 10 games if appropriate.

The Zards are possibly a 40 plus win team last season with a healthy Wall and Howard. Of course there's no way of knowing that for sure since neither player was healthy.

I think people underestimate the lose of Dwight and his rebounding and rim protection. Dude averaged over 12 boards in the 2017-18 season and was averaging 9 rebs in 25 minutes last season. That’s huge loss for a squad that was one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA last season.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1904 » by Shoe » Sat May 18, 2019 1:24 am

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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1905 » by nate33 » Sat May 18, 2019 1:25 am

DCZards wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Second: we are not a 25-30 team with Beal. Last year, we were 30-40 through 70 games before a tanktastic finish (going 2-10). That's a 35-36 win pace. And that's with a rookie at center. Bryant is sure to be better next year. I think 35 wins is easily possible, unless we decide to tank the last 10 games if appropriate.

The Zards are possibly a 40 plus win team last season with a healthy Wall and Howard. Of course there's no way of knowing that for sure since neither player was healthy.

I think people underestimate the lose of Dwight and his rebounding and rim protection. Dude averaged over 12 boards in the 2017-18 season and was averaging 9 rebs in 25 minutes last season. That’s huge loss for a squad that was one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA last season.

A healthy Dwight would help us, but I'm fully expecting Dwight to miss 60+ games this year.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1906 » by deneem4 » Sat May 18, 2019 1:36 am

nate33 wrote:
DCZards wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Second: we are not a 25-30 team with Beal. Last year, we were 30-40 through 70 games before a tanktastic finish (going 2-10). That's a 35-36 win pace. And that's with a rookie at center. Bryant is sure to be better next year. I think 35 wins is easily possible, unless we decide to tank the last 10 games if appropriate.

The Zards are possibly a 40 plus win team last season with a healthy Wall and Howard. Of course there's no way of knowing that for sure since neither player was healthy.

I think people underestimate the lose of Dwight and his rebounding and rim protection. Dude averaged over 12 boards in the 2017-18 season and was averaging 9 rebs in 25 minutes last season. That’s huge loss for a squad that was one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA last season.

A healthy Dwight would help us, but I'm fully expecting Dwight to miss 60+ games this year.


A Healthy Dwight wall Beal were at minimum a 50 win team...
Pay your beals....or its lights out!!!
Bron, Bosh, Wade is like Mike, Hakeem, barkley...3 top 5 picks from same draft
mike, hakeem and Barkley on the same team!!!!
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1907 » by nate33 » Sat May 18, 2019 1:38 am

deneem4 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
DCZards wrote:The Zards are possibly a 40 plus win team last season with a healthy Wall and Howard. Of course there's no way of knowing that for sure since neither player was healthy.

I think people underestimate the lose of Dwight and his rebounding and rim protection. Dude averaged over 12 boards in the 2017-18 season and was averaging 9 rebs in 25 minutes last season. That’s huge loss for a squad that was one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA last season.

A healthy Dwight would help us, but I'm fully expecting Dwight to miss 60+ games this year.


A Healthy Dwight wall Beal were at minimum a 50 win team...

C'mon now. Dwight isn't that good. There's a reason why he was available for the MLE. He hasn't had a substantially positive impact in 4 years.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1908 » by deneem4 » Sat May 18, 2019 1:40 am

nate33 wrote:
deneem4 wrote:
nate33 wrote:A healthy Dwight would help us, but I'm fully expecting Dwight to miss 60+ games this year.


A Healthy Dwight wall Beal were at minimum a 50 win team...

C'mon now. Dwight isn't that good. There's a reason why he was available for the MLE. He hasn't had a substantially positive impact in 4 years.


Kanter, illyasova
Pay your beals....or its lights out!!!
Bron, Bosh, Wade is like Mike, Hakeem, barkley...3 top 5 picks from same draft
mike, hakeem and Barkley on the same team!!!!
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1909 » by prime1time » Sat May 18, 2019 3:52 am

queridiculo wrote:Wizards go full rebuild, trade Beal to the Lakers for Lonzo Ball, Josh Hart, Mo Wagner, the 4th pick overall and a lottery protected 2020 1st.

Washington trades the 9th overall to Boston for pick 14 and 20.

4 - Deandre Hunter
14 - Nickeil Alexander-Walker
20 - Goga Bitadze/Bruno Fernando

I'd enjoy watching that team and I wouldn't be heartbroken over losing Beal with him playing in different timezone and only seeing him twice a year.

How long would we be the worst team in the league given this plan?
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1910 » by DCZards » Sat May 18, 2019 4:06 am

nate33 wrote:
DCZards wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Second: we are not a 25-30 team with Beal. Last year, we were 30-40 through 70 games before a tanktastic finish (going 2-10). That's a 35-36 win pace. And that's with a rookie at center. Bryant is sure to be better next year. I think 35 wins is easily possible, unless we decide to tank the last 10 games if appropriate.

The Zards are possibly a 40 plus win team last season with a healthy Wall and Howard. Of course there's no way of knowing that for sure since neither player was healthy.

I think people underestimate the lose of Dwight and his rebounding and rim protection. Dude averaged over 12 boards in the 2017-18 season and was averaging 9 rebs in 25 minutes last season. That’s huge loss for a squad that was one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA last season.

A healthy Dwight would help us, but I'm fully expecting Dwight to miss 60+ games this year.

There's no way of knowing whether Dwight will miss 60+ games next season or play 60+ games next season. But there's no doubt that a healthy Howard helps to address one of the Zards MAJOR weaknesses last season---rebounding.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1911 » by TGW » Sat May 18, 2019 4:22 am

They should cut dwight howard. I don't want that lazy dimwit around any of the young players. He's a cancer.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1912 » by The Consiglieri » Sat May 18, 2019 5:11 am

Illmatic12 wrote:
The Consiglieri wrote:Dig into the research. Just look it up, productivity curves, NBA player Primes etc, those kind of searches will let you know. It's true across the board in sports, there are differences in which sports are more forgiving, and which positions are more forgiving, but there hasn't been a study anywhere that suggests that players fail to decline, on average, at age 29-30. It's not rocket science, even us civilians notice it in our bodies. It's a physical reality and nutrition and a workout regimen can only get you so far. Also we may be looking at things differently, I'm looking at productivity curves, efficiency curves, the stuff rotoviz does (wonder if they do it for basketball?). The decline always seems to start right around age 29/30. There does seem to be a bit of a difference w/Guards, w/their curve lasting a bit into their thirties (30-32 depending upon source), but I'm curious about when the decline starts, and it starts around age 29-32, and I think 32 is probably a bit ambitious. Doesn't mean player sucks after his age 29 season, just means declines start then, and get rapidly steeper with each season following that.

Yeah nope, we’re not going to agree on this one at all. Complete difference of opinion here.

Below is a comprehensive study on players age vs performance (and this is from 2014, so it doesn’t include more recent examples like Vince Carter, Manu Ginobili, Kyle Korver, Jason Terry, Jamal Crawford who were NBA rotation players well into their late 30s-40s)

GOLDEN AGES OF BASKETBALL PLAYERS


We are seeing that the prime years of guards is 28-32 years old interval. This shows that guards mature a little bit later than other players. The basketball intelligence, ball conservation, court vision, shot mechanics are all skill peculiar mainly to the guards and correlated with experience. On the other hand, per 36 minutes graph indicates another aspect: guards are also very effective at younger ages (23-25) but their playing time are limited comparing to later ages.


Image

I find it comical to suggest that a player such as Bradley Beal will fall off by age 30. Already I provided numerous examples of skilled NBA guards who were still playing at an All-Star level into their 30s. And modern medicine has advanced to the point where pro athlete’s careers are extending much longer than we’ve even seen in the past. Beal in particular has excellent fitness and work ethic even compared to his contemporaries, so his age 26-32 seasons are much more likely to end up on the upper range of the age-productivity curve:

How Bradley Beal became (possibly) the best-conditioned athlete in the NBA

And the NBA game itself is becoming less physical and more of a finesse game. A 25yo Bradley Beal perfectly fits the meta of where the modern league is going.. he is a shooter, scores at the rim, proficient in midrange, operates as a PnR ballhandler, scores on cuts, shoots off screens, excellent in transition, is athletic and crafty enough to draw fouls, he can generally hold his own defensively against switches. He maintains peak fitness year-round and just played back-to-back 82 game seasons. Playing in the NBA is going to get even EASIER for him , not harder. We're seeing this effect with players like Curry, Lillard, Harden . They're improving their skillsets with age yes, but also the game is favoring them more . They have more spacing and can create more playmaking chances, it's easier for them to draw FTs on jumpshots etc. Beware of undervaluing Beal's prime years: there's ample evidence that the latter half of Beal's career will exceed projections and his prime will extend beyond what you are anticipating..


Your second paragraph. I just don't understand any of that. How can we rebuild. HOW? You seem to assume we can rebuild while keeping Beal and being totally unable to trade assets to augment whatever lottery pick we land each year. What is that accomplishing? What value is 29-53 to us compared to say 19-63? or 22-60? Why? Beal is the one thing we have that can allow us to kick start our rebuild before 2023, other than Beal, we're totally and completely stuck. When Wall's deal is done, Beal is entering the first season in which players in general start to show decline. During those four years keeping Beal around will harm our lottery odds while not ever allowing us to even come remotely close to competing for anything. Beal represents the keys to chances/opportunities/bullets in our draft gun so so to speak. Again, by the time we have a chance at being competitive, not actually being competitive, he will be 30, and if we aren't picking up assets for him, how are we actually likely to become competitive in the first place? We can't through free agency, we can't through trades (we have no assets that are valued other than our future 1sts which we will need to build with), we can only do it through the draft itself, and considering how many holes we have and how little foundation if any is in place, how in heck does any of that happen w/o trading him? The answer is it doesn't happen.

Wall's injury changed everything for the franchise. Ted Leonsis is not going to tank, rebuild, whatever while he has $40mil/yr going to John Wall. They can't just hide their recovering franchise player in a closet somewhere and pretend he doesn't exist while we tank for randomized draft picks and sell no tickets.. you can't do that for 4 years in a row. It might be a hard pill to swallow for some, but that's the reality of the business-side of professional sports, so adjust your expectations accordingly. There will be no "rebuilding"... what we can do is retool , and set ourselves up for post-Wall years with a prime Beal as the centerpiece.



Washington has TEN open roster spots this offseason.. they're basically retooling the roster anyways, it will look completely different from last year's team. It will take the right person in charge, but I believe a good GM can use the draft, cap exceptions, waiver pickups, trades, and internal development to put together a roster that can be respectable and compete for an East playoff spot around Beal. When Wall is back into the lineup, you assess where things stand from there - if things go really south then maybe at that point they will be forced to trade Beal, sure - but it's far too early to make that determination.

Question: Why do you say Washington can't use free agency or trades? Sounds like parroting things you've heard other people say and you haven't actually looked at our cap sheet:
Image

Why can't they use free agency to add depth these next few years? And why couldn't they retain valuable players (ie Satoransky) and use them as trade assets down the line? Do they not have all of their future first round picks? Can't they buy 2nd rounders as well?

I'd rather be stuck with Beal than lost in the wilderness without him. Beal is a player we can build around and complement, and he will get us through the potentially rough years of Wall's contract. And by summer of 2023 when Wall is off the books, we could have an All-NBA SG + at least 4 young first round prospects + max capspace. Give me your plan that puts us in a better position 4 years from now..

We couldn't come close to a conference final w/the Webber era Wizards or the Arenas Wizards and hell the Wall Wizards failed too. Now all of a sudden w/a Broken down Wall, the few young prospects not named Wall or Beal traded for peanuts or less for cap reasons, and little to no assets beyond Beal and future firsts we're going to contend, or build something? It just strikes me as incredibly absurd to imagine such a thing. In a dire situation like this you ALWAYS sell out your top assets so you can start the rebuild w/something, you don't keep them until they age out, or sign elsewhere and we receive nothing in comp. I just don't get that thinking at all.

Trading Brad doesn't get us any closer to a conference final either. Tell me how we trade Beal and make a ECF within the next 5 years. Go ahead..

Several years ago the Chicago Bulls traded Jimmy Butler, for what most consider now to be a good return. What have they gained since then? What have they done?? They just subjected their fans to a 22-60 season, and thanks to the new lotto odds their reward was ...the 7th pick in the draft. Cam Reddish will really turn things around next year right? IF the Bulls are lucky.. in 2-3 years their team MIGHT be as good as those Butler-led squads that were at least making the playoffs consistently. And they'll realize that they spent 4-5 years just to get back to the same place.


Look man, the Wizards are not a storied franchise - we only have 5 retired jerseys. And at least one player who should be retired but his prime was stolen from us due to injury, and then due to a stupid decision he made became blackballed and can't even be openly recognized by the organization. We had another player who was , and still is a franchise icon, but his prime was also stolen from us due to injury and it's unclear whether his story in DC will go down as a positive one.


In an era where player movement reigns supreme, you have a high-character star player who has been vocal about wanting to stay in DC and build a legacy here, and is even active in recruiting other players here. He has the youth, talent and character to eventually become a franchise leader for us into his 30s, something we haven't truly seen in decades. This isn't a player you trade away for the *hope* at *maybe* having a better team 5 years from now. You keep him for as long as possible, and when he's done playing you put his jersey in the rafters. If it was possible to sign Beal to a 6yr extension through his age 32 season, I would do it TODAY.



I saw that article, hence the 28-32 guards angle I mentioned. Other articles suggest age 29-30, sports in general suggest 25-29 across all fields. Efficiency can get better for a while as players age and mature, and that article makes a compelling argument that learning the craft of Point Guard, or even 2 Guard, can be more taxing than figuring out the 3, 4 or playing Center. I could potentially see that. I can also see that players get worse over time as they age, and definitely as they age into their thirties. Rule changes certainly make it a friendlier league for thirty somethings, ditto a better understanding of nutrition and training (weights, pilates, yoga etc).

I think the last paragraph summarizes where we just see things differently. To me your contending, or rebuilding. You never, ever, want to be caught in the middle. The Beal situation is simple. We have no means by which to build around him. Others have addressed this more effectively than I have, but to sum up my perspective on it: we couldn't win squat with young, hyper athletic Beal and Wall, what are we going to accomplish with older/old Beal, and broken down never gonna be the same Wall eating up franchise player money? You mention that we can do things. Yes, but the things we can do are tinkering. We will not attract prime free agents because we can't pay them. We can't attract second tier guys because they know we're screwed, we can just attract guys looking for pay days, and guys looking to be found like Thomas Bryant. The latter are great, and lovely, but not remotely franchise changing. They are the sprinkles on the Sunday, not the banana, the ice cream, or the whip cream. I have no issue w/what Chicago did. They were right to do it. They were trapped w/players that wouldn't play together, and did the best they could to rebuild. They aren't saddled with cap killing contracts, they are flexible, and have the chance to become something, even if right now they are nothing. I would take their situation over ours 1,000,000 times out of 1,000,000 because hope is actually possible there. It isn't with us.

If you want to watch Beal play all NBA third team basketball for a 20 something win to me for the foreseeable future that's your prerogative. I just cannot understand why that would ever trump hope for competing. Especially in a town where we've seen the Redskins tread water at the 4-12 to 8-8 level for decades with plenty of Beal-like talents to help caulk over the "suck" and misery of decade after decade of crappy, incompetent football. Keeping Beal is a recipe for that, and btw, if you love watching him play, I don't know, maybe kill two birds with one stone, get a truck load of assets for him, and let him go out there and accomplish something great with a. competent organization while we try to build a competent organization from scratch, because that's what we're literally doing, except unlike in track, where your staggered lane 1 has two turns to advantage you, the wizards have nothing but a long, long, long staggered lane 1, with no turns whatsoever, just a helluvalot of catching up to do. We can either start now, sometime this season, by the '21 decade, or when Beal leaves during the Summer of '21 (maybe he stays, but it would be a truly horrific decision for him to do so, and would actually indict him and his ambitions. He owes us nothing after giving us 10 years of excellent play, and should go barring some Zion-like transformative franchise lottery victory). I'd rather do it now, or the '20 deadline, whenever we can get the best offer.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1913 » by doclinkin » Sat May 18, 2019 8:46 am

The Consiglieri wrote:
I think the last paragraph summarizes where we just see things differently. To me your contending, or rebuilding. You never, ever, want to be caught in the middle.
...
The Beal situation is simple. We have no means by which to build around him. Others have addressed this more effectively than I have, but to sum up my perspective on it: we couldn't win squat with young, hyper athletic Beal and Wall, what are we going to accomplish with older/old Beal, and broken down never gonna be the same Wall eating up franchise player money?
...
You mention that we can do things. Yes, but the things we can do are tinkering. We will not attract prime free agents because we can't pay them.
...
If you want to watch Beal play all NBA third team basketball for a 20 something win to me for the foreseeable future that's your prerogative. I just cannot understand why that would ever trump hope for competing.
...
He owes us nothing after giving us 10 years of excellent play, and should go barring some Zion-like transformative franchise lottery victory).


New lotto rules disagree. You can do just fine being caught in the middle. The odds are no longer prohibitively stacked against you for trying hard but having an off year.

Wall is signed here for large dollars. There’s no point giving up on him. I submit we don’t know what may happen when he comes back from rehab.

We do know the Wall we last had was playing on bone spurs and fighting thru pain playing way too many minutes and taking his rest not on the bench or in rehab but on the defensive side of the ball. It affected his offseason conditioning since it hurt to stand, so his primary cardio was riding a bike. Too many fans gave up on him as a lazy player. Not a player who was killing himself to stay on the court while he should have rested. Now he has no choice.

Injury. Fatherhood. His mothers cancer. New regime with better oversight and accountability. Enforced rest and true rehab with medical oversight from a competent front office. Load management. The Wall you have given up on has every chance to come back a renewed player.


And now we ditch GMEG who seemed to have a philosophy that prevented the team from landing competent back-ups. It seems to me Ernie built teams that always leaned too heavily on starters, knowing if they were out we could tank for lotto picks and have an injury excuse. Look at the parade of hasbeens and hopeless cases Ernie had at back up PG. Whether incompetence or intentional we have gone out of our way to land players who could not play. Look at how many minutes we have always played our stars. Arenas, Wall, Beal. Under Ernie we have always lead the league in both starters minutes and games lost to injury. You don’t recall everyone bitching we were playing Arenas/Beal/Wall etc too many minutes when they were coming back from stress injuries?

Yes we were mediocre with Beal/Wall as our starters. However our starting five was commonly among the most efficient in the league in +/- We just had nothing behind them. Ever.

You suggest we are doomed to field 20 win teams. Ok then we will be in the lotto.

But recognize no team wins unless they draft a franchise changing superstar as their best player. The lotto is the only chance for teams to land the Zion-like transformative franchise player. It’s a cold hard fact. Free agents won’t do it. And nobody trades those players. In order to win a championship you have to draft the right player in the right year. Then build around them. Luck is the best chance you’ve got.

The exceptions underline the rule. Miami won when free agent LeBJ joined Wade (the centerpiece of the earlier Miami championship contender) with Bosh. They came at a discount to play with each other. The Cavs won because free agent LeBJ didn’t like the bad press from that Decision and decided to return to the team that drafted him despite crappy ownership.

Durant joined GSW because they had their superstar already drafted and in place and Westbrook is hard to deal with.

Ok. If you want to follow the Celtics model for a single championship you can stockpile picks and swap them for disgruntled stars poached from smaller markets and poorly managed teams. But aside from one ring that’s not really been working for them. And even there as cited earlier they had Pierce in place to build around.

The Larry Brown Pistons and maybe next years Clippers are the only teams who have built contenders by chemistry and free agency. And in the case of the Pistons it took a meltdown and chemistry issues in a team of top mega talent players (who drafted their alpha dog guard, and landed Shaq because Hollywood).

Basically our only hope of a championship is the same as almost every other team: that Zion-like transformative franchise player (ZLTFP). Your feeling is we can only land him by swapping Beal for at most one or two extra bites at that apple. Maybe then we get better luck with a few % points better odds. And if not then we add talented players. Ok.

My feeling is: if we get lucky we get lucky. But. Trading Beal subtracts one skilled player who helps any young talent we do land to actually reach that potential. He is a good mentor. Plays hard on defense. Is coachable. Improving. Has learned to kick his skittles habit and fix his nutrition and conditioning. He passes the ball and rewards you with assists when you pass to him.

Swapping that out for a few young players who may develop. Or a couple more chances at that ZLTFP. Doesn’t seem like the best road to contention. In an era where mediocre teams are just about as likely as the bottom feeders to get the top ZLTFP in any draft.

ALSO! Insurance is paying Wall. Our owners have more freedom to exceed the lux tax if they want. We are not as strapped for money or anxious about the cap as other teams.

ALSO scuttlebutt is Powell-Jobs bought into the Wiz as a gift to boyfriend Adrian Fenty. Lux tax payments are wiped away by a few hours interest accumulated in her portfolio. [EDIT Hmm, reports suggest they may no longer be dating. Oh well. Still we seemed to have no problem bearing the lux tax payments over the past couple years. Her 20% stake may have been a factor.].

ALSO we have no idea yet how legalized sports gambling may affect the overall salary cap if the NBA can get a piece of this with inteactive TV and online avenues etc on prospect bets. We do know Ted has been pushing for it and prepared to take advantage of the change in law for a long time. The recent retooling of the phone booth Capital One Center was with an eye towards this and he booted out the Greene Turtle to make room for his own in-arena sports book. There's extra money coming if the NBA and ownership is smart. This necessitates that player's get a percentage stake, effectively to match player salaries with team profits.

The cap may raise enough that todays supermax looks like tomorrow's relative bargain. But our team has revenue streams that give us unique positioning if we choose to be buyers in the market. Player's agents know this.

We have new management coming in. Different outlook. We don’t need to hang onto the same doom and gloom mindset we have had as Wizards fans. You don’t know. You don’t know what the future holds. Let the incoming GM assess the squad and take his time getting a rolling start and see what we can assemble. If we re sign Brad he becomes an asset whose destiny we control. And given his upward trend if we decide we should swap him we can probably get a better deal than a few chancey rolls of the dice.

So okay yeah: No we are not winning a championship in the next couple years. But. We have put up with decades of hopeless suckitude. We can be patient for a couple years of hopeful suckitude. With smarter people piloting the ship. And possibly. Possibly. Players who are already on the roster shutting the mouths of naysayers and doom addicts who expect nothing but misery as payment for their fandom. :clown:
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1914 » by prime1time » Sat May 18, 2019 10:39 am

I don't understand the logic by which people say we can't build around Beal. The Lakers got the #4 pick in the draft, with LeBron. This isn't a couple years ago where you clearly had to be the worst team in the league. Regardless, why trade Beal during such a weak draft? As far as I'm concerned, getting equal value for Beal is irrelevant. 1 potential or actual start, is worth more than 3 or 4 role players. Unless we are talking about a top 2 pick in this draft, I'm keeping Beal. A bad and rash decision right now can doom out team to mediocrity for years to come.

I admire the willingness of some fans to head first into a 4-6 year long 76ers esque rebuild, but the draft lottery has changed. It is no longer possible to do what the 76ers did. In my opinion the thought process is very simple. Either we trade Beal for someone that has the potential to be a future star or we keep him until we find that deal offered. The years of tearing a team down to its core and rebuilding are gone.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1915 » by Worst_to_First » Sat May 18, 2019 12:09 pm

Dat2U wrote:
payitforward wrote:There is no abstract question "Would the Wizards be better off keeping Brad Beal or trading him?" Whether team X (any team in the league, the Wizards included) does or does not trade player Y (any player in the league, Bradley Beal included) comes down to one question only:

What does team X get in return for player Y.

Nothing else is relevant.

It's not about "is player Y at his peak or not?" It's not about "is player Y going to stay with our team until the planet crumbles at the end of time?" It's not about "is player Y a top 20 player in the league?" It's just about the deal.


I'm coming around to this offer for Beal

3rd pick
C Mitchell Robinson
Both Dallas picks
Whatever filler NY wishes to include: Likely Ntilikina, Trier & Knox

We solidify the C positon with Robinson/Bryant for the foreseeable future. Robinson flashed Gobert type potential as a defensive game changer.

Three picks, one being a top 3 this year.

We take fliers on secondary talent that might pan out in time. Knox just wasn't ready. Trier is a bit of an overachiever but a fighter. Ntilikina... at least he's an expiring lol.

I'd probably grab Darius Garland at 3. Trade the 9 for the 14 & 20 and grab Tyler Herro & either P.J. Washington or Grant Williams.


Bradley Beal is a great player and all but we would not do that package that you said for Anthony Davis himself.

I know the tendency to overrate one’s own players but us Knicks fans are already dreading the thought of losing Mitch in any possible trade. That kid is going to be special and we have him at such a bargain.

Especially in the East a team would need a versatile defender that can at the very least slow down the likes of Embiid and Giannis.

I don’t think the Knicks would be a suitable trading partner for you guys involving Bradley Beal. I would think it would be the Lakers given LeBron’s need for guys that can spread out the floor.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1916 » by payitforward » Sat May 18, 2019 3:46 pm

nate33 wrote:...I don't see how we'll be better then if we dump our All-NBA 25-year old combo guard now. Not unless we trade him for a younger All-NBA caliber talent, of which there are very few available.

In other words, if the right deal comes along trade him. If not, not.

As I say, this is the only issue of interest -- what's the deal?
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1917 » by payitforward » Sat May 18, 2019 3:54 pm

... how great to see Doc writing all these long posts!

I suppose the truth is that this is one of those moments when we can't really know anything. Not just we can't know what to do, what will work out better than what instead, but we don't even know who's gonna do whatever we do!

Still, whenever everything's up in the air, people feel free somehow to have big & wild ideas. Can't hurt to hear more of 'em!

What's the wildest possible scenario for the Washington Wizards, I wonder...?
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1918 » by Illmatic12 » Sat May 18, 2019 3:55 pm

The Consiglieri wrote:
Spoiler:
I saw that article, hence the 28-32 guards angle I mentioned. Other articles suggest age 29-30, sports in general suggest 25-29 across all fields. Efficiency can get better for a while as players age and mature, and that article makes a compelling argument that learning the craft of Point Guard, or even 2 Guard, can be more taxing than figuring out the 3, 4 or playing Center. I could potentially see that. I can also see that players get worse over time as they age, and definitely as they age into their thirties. Rule changes certainly make it a friendlier league for thirty somethings, ditto a better understanding of nutrition and training (weights, pilates, yoga etc).

I think the last paragraph summarizes where we just see things differently. To me your contending, or rebuilding. You never, ever, want to be caught in the middle. The Beal situation is simple. We have no means by which to build around him. Others have addressed this more effectively than I have, but to sum up my perspective on it: we couldn't win squat with young, hyper athletic Beal and Wall, what are we going to accomplish with older/old Beal, and broken down never gonna be the same Wall eating up franchise player money? You mention that we can do things. Yes, but the things we can do are tinkering. We will not attract prime free agents because we can't pay them. We can't attract second tier guys because they know we're screwed, we can just attract guys looking for pay days, and guys looking to be found like Thomas Bryant. The latter are great, and lovely, but not remotely franchise changing. They are the sprinkles on the Sunday, not the banana, the ice cream, or the whip cream. I have no issue w/what Chicago did. They were right to do it. They were trapped w/players that wouldn't play together, and did the best they could to rebuild. They aren't saddled with cap killing contracts, they are flexible, and have the chance to become something, even if right now they are nothing. I would take their situation over ours 1,000,000 times out of 1,000,000 because hope is actually possible there. It isn't with us.

If you want to watch Beal play all NBA third team basketball for a 20 something win to me for the foreseeable future that's your prerogative. I just cannot understand why that would ever trump hope for competing. Especially in a town where we've seen the Redskins tread water at the 4-12 to 8-8 level for decades with plenty of Beal-like talents to help caulk over the "suck" and misery of decade after decade of crappy, incompetent football. Keeping Beal is a recipe for that, and btw, if you love watching him play, I don't know, maybe kill two birds with one stone, get a truck load of assets for him, and let him go out there and accomplish something great with a. competent organization while we try to build a competent organization from scratch, because that's what we're literally doing, except unlike in track, where your staggered lane 1 has two turns to advantage you, the wizards have nothing but a long, long, long staggered lane 1, with no turns whatsoever, just a helluvalot of catching up to do. We can either start now, sometime this season, by the '21 decade, or when Beal leaves during the Summer of '21 (maybe he stays, but it would be a truly horrific decision for him to do so, and would actually indict him and his ambitions. He owes us nothing after giving us 10 years of excellent play, and should go barring some Zion-like transformative franchise lottery victory). I'd rather do it now, or the '20 deadline, whenever we can get the best offer.

Why is the baseline for this team “20 something wins”? I see that Nate and a few others already challenged that point. Can’t just throw something like that out there without defending your position imo . We don’t even know who’s going to be on the team next season , not to talk of the foreseeable future.

If you’re using this past season as evidence - I would simply point out that Washington had an NBA-record 28 players who suited up for them. They also lost the most man-games to injury of any team in the league. No need to rehash everything that happened but it was certainly one of the strangest seasons I’ve witnessed, the amount of roster flux and players who were injured/playing through injuries was highly abnormal. The team also dropped the final 5 games on purpose by sitting Beal in 2H. With a more stable + healthy situation we can expect more competitive squads.

Don’t get me wrong, if Grunfeld was still in charge I might be right in line with your thinking. But I wouldn’t be suggesting this route if I didn’t think our next front office could put a competitive team around Beal. And it looks increasingly likely that FO will be spearheaded by Tim Connelly and Tommy Sheppard - both highly regarded execs who are known around the league as incredibly hard workers. Those guys came up the ranks from a scouting background and love the challenge. Not like the last several Wizards GMs, former players who are coasting off of their names to land cushy positions. So a major reason for optimism is that we’re going to see a marked increase in the productivity of our front office. Yesterday NBC Wash broadcasted from Chicago at the NBA Combine and I heard Chris Miller mention that the team was in talks to acquire a 2nd round draft selection from Philadelphia (76ers own this years #33 and #34) . That’s the kind of proactive thinking we’re not used to from the Wiz FO, but it’s what they’ll need moving forward to make this work.

The other aspect of this is Ernie’s buddy, Scott Brooks. The new regime will want their own guy and I fully expect Brooks to be relieved within the next ~12 months. Go through any GT on here from last season, we all documented in real time how many wins turned into losses due to Brooks awful , stubborn rotations. Wouldn’t you agree that an upgrade at the head coaching position will instantly add wins and raise our floor?


You look around the league and see teams like Miami, Brooklyn who have no superstar players. But they roll out 7-8 scrappy guys no ones ever heard of who buy into a team concept and are able to win ~40ish games and compete for the postseason. Or Indiana who has Oladipo and a
collection of role players but can grind out ~50 wins.

I say; give me Bradley Beal + 6-7 underrated role players who are healthy and play hard, and that can be a fun 38-42 win team (including developing young guys like Bryant, Brown, our draft picks) that’s in the mix for a 7-8th seed in the East. Replace Scott Brooks with anyone competent , and your potential is even higher than that. In 2020 if Wall comes back to even 75% of what he was, no more foot pain and is moving better defensively, you start to look at a team that can make playoffs consistently and even advance depending on matchups. And if you get a godfather deal for Beal at any point , you can always look into it and pull the trigger. No need to panic.
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1919 » by payitforward » Sat May 18, 2019 4:04 pm

I watched a bunch of the Combine.... Anyone else?

Bunch of guys did themselves good. Viz...
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Re: Wizards 2019 Draft thread. (Tank for Zion, or OTHER NAME HERE) 

Post#1920 » by Illmatic12 » Sat May 18, 2019 4:06 pm

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:...I don't see how we'll be better then if we dump our All-NBA 25-year old combo guard now. Not unless we trade him for a younger All-NBA caliber talent, of which there are very few available.

In other words, if the right deal comes along trade him. If not, not.

As I say, this is the only issue of interest -- what's the deal?

Kevin Arnovitz and Zach Lowe discussed the Wiz on the latest Lowe Post podcast (around the 40min mark):

https://player.fm/series/the-lowe-post-1203962/kevin-arnovitz-8RXnMDRc144kYHU8


The crux of Arnovitz argument was this (roughly paraphrasing here):

“If Beal was 28 or 29 this would be a different discussion. But he’s too young . This is a very good basketball player under contract, why wouldn’t I keep him? You’re already stuck in ‘John Wall jail’ anyways - keep Beal and hopefully he leads you to a few East playoff berths and a couple postseason home games. But if you do miss the playoffs, the lottery odds are flattened so you have a better chance at a top pick. So it’s a win-win. If I’m Washington why do I even feel compelled to trade him now? And if you keep him , the more likely it is that a team will come in with a godfather deal - all it takes is 1 team”

I have to say I agree with Arnovitz here. Keep Beal for now and see where things go, there is nothing wrong with holding onto a great young player. If some desperate team swoops in with a godfather offer then you look at it. But these Lakers , Knicks offers are NOT that.. nor are any of the other proposed offers that involve picks in this underwhelming draft class.

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