ImageImageImageImageImage

Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV

Moderators: nate33, montestewart, LyricalRico

dckingsfan
RealGM
Posts: 35,275
And1: 20,669
Joined: May 28, 2010

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#901 » by dckingsfan » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:45 pm

Nivek wrote:Quick look of my own, and I agree that Detroit looks to have a lot of flexibility. Villanueva and Stuckey are on expiring deals. Don't see why they'd want either guy back. They need some backcourt help, but they should have sufficient cap room to sign a max free agent and re-sign Monroe. I guess they could have an issue three years from now when Drummond is due for an extension, but I don't think that should be a major concern for them now.


It is going to be interesting to see how the market values Monroe - I don't think he would get more than Pek - in fact I would think he would be a sub 12M/yr guy. The problem for Detroit is they really need a quality SG - and there aren't a lot on the market next year. Or gone after one of the other PGs to have a 2 PG lineup --- ok, just rambling on that point. Then again, maybe Caldwell-Pope will breakout.
popper
Veteran
Posts: 2,869
And1: 406
Joined: Jun 19, 2010

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#902 » by popper » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:00 pm

Ugh - great analysis on this page. It really does not look very promising. The only possibility I see to really upgrade the team (and reverse the EG first round bust syndrome) is to renounce Singleton and Booker.....trade Oke and or Ariza for young talent and start another mini-rebuild. Or, renounce Singleton and Booker and go over the cap next year to acquire another key player or two. Last, the wildcard here is Porter. I hope I'm wrong but there's a distinct possibility that he will be no more valuable than a minimum-salary veteran SF. Depressing ........... please fire EG ASAP Ted.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 70,646
And1: 23,139
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#903 » by nate33 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:13 pm

popper wrote:Ugh - great analysis on this page. It really does not look very promising. The only possibility I see to really upgrade the team (and reverse the EG first round bust syndrome) is to renounce Singleton and Booker.....trade Oke and or Ariza for young talent and start another mini-rebuild. Or, renounce Singleton and Booker and go over the cap next year to acquire another key player or two. Last, the wildcard here is Porter. I hope I'm wrong but there's a distinct possibility that he will be no more valuable than a minimum-salary veteran SF. Depressing ........... please fire EG ASAP Ted.

I wouldn't say that. I think the future is pretty good. We lack an elite young big man so it's tough to see us as legit contenders, but I think the prospects are good for us to win 45-50 games a year for the next several years. Basically, our long term core is Wall, Beal, Webster, Porter, Nene and whatever we can buy on the free agency market for $15-20M. If what we get is a stud big man, we should be in pretty good shape. If we get a hodgepodge of overpriced role players, then we'll be stuck in 45-win purgatory for a while.

We have two windows of opportunity to really improve the team: Summer 2014 and Summer 2016. In 2014, Okariza comes off the books and we can take a shot at Cousins or Monroe. If that doesn't pan out, we resign Okafor (or maybe someone like Pau Gasol) to a 2-year deal and then we'll have max cap room again in 2016 when Nene also comes off the books. In 2016, Durant and Love will be unrestricted free agents and both guys might be looking to move after several years of frustration with their existing team.
popper
Veteran
Posts: 2,869
And1: 406
Joined: Jun 19, 2010

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#904 » by popper » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:24 pm

nate33 wrote:
popper wrote:Ugh - great analysis on this page. It really does not look very promising. The only possibility I see to really upgrade the team (and reverse the EG first round bust syndrome) is to renounce Singleton and Booker.....trade Oke and or Ariza for young talent and start another mini-rebuild. Or, renounce Singleton and Booker and go over the cap next year to acquire another key player or two. Last, the wildcard here is Porter. I hope I'm wrong but there's a distinct possibility that he will be no more valuable than a minimum-salary veteran SF. Depressing ........... please fire EG ASAP Ted.

I wouldn't say that. I think the future is pretty good. We lack an elite young big man so it's tough to see us as legit contenders, but I think the prospects are good for us to win 45-50 games a year for the next several years. Basically, our long term core is Wall, Beal, Webster, Porter, Nene and whatever we can buy on the free agency market for $15-20M. If what we get is a stud big man, we should be in pretty good shape. If we get a hodgepodge of overpriced role players, then we'll be stuck in 45-win purgatory for a while.

We have two windows of opportunity to really improve the team: Summer 2014 and Summer 2016. In 2014, Okariza comes off the books and we can take a shot at Cousins or Monroe. If that doesn't pan out, we resign Okafor (or maybe someone like Pau Gasol) to a 2-year deal and then we'll have max cap room again in 2016 when Nene also comes off the books. In 2016, Durant and Love will be unrestricted free agents and both guys might be looking to move after several years of frustration with their existing team.


Appreciate the jolt of optimism Nate. I do feel a little better. I was expecting you to say that after the windows of opportunity in 2014 and 2016 that the next opportunity would be in 2026. Hell, I'll be six feet under by then.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 24,898
And1: 9,248
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#905 » by payitforward » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:32 pm

nate33 wrote:
popper wrote:Ugh - great analysis on this page. It really does not look very promising. The only possibility I see to really upgrade the team (and reverse the EG first round bust syndrome) is to renounce Singleton and Booker.....trade Oke and or Ariza for young talent and start another mini-rebuild. Or, renounce Singleton and Booker and go over the cap next year to acquire another key player or two. Last, the wildcard here is Porter. I hope I'm wrong but there's a distinct possibility that he will be no more valuable than a minimum-salary veteran SF. Depressing ........... please fire EG ASAP Ted.

I wouldn't say that. I think the future is pretty good. We lack an elite young big man so it's tough to see us as legit contenders, but I think the prospects are good for us to win 45-50 games a year for the next several years. Basically, our long term core is Wall, Beal, Webster, Porter, Nene and whatever we can buy on the free agency market for $15-20M. If what we get is a stud big man, we should be in pretty good shape. If we get a hodgepodge of overpriced role players, then we'll be stuck in 45-win purgatory for a while.

We have two windows of opportunity to really improve the team: Summer 2014 and Summer 2016. In 2014, Okariza comes off the books and we can take a shot at Cousins or Monroe. If that doesn't pan out, we resign Okafor (or maybe someone like Pau Gasol) to a 2-year deal and then we'll have max cap room again in 2016 when Nene also comes off the books. In 2016, Durant and Love will be unrestricted free agents and both guys might be looking to move after several years of frustration with their existing team.

nate -- I think Popper's nailed it. Nene is getting old and didn't play well or much last year. Webster looked good on a 29 win team. He's not much more than an average SF if that. Porter is a 20 year old rookie. Wall and Beal are our best hopes, but that's two guys.

And we've just had a full page of explanation why, no, we *can't* take a shot at Cousins or Monroe -- or at least it seems quite unlikely. We'll be at @$6m without Okariza next Summer. So where do we get this $15-20m to spend on FAs?

Moreover, Okafor and Ariza were two of our best players last year -- so... we're gonna be quite good for several years w/o them? And w/ limited cap room

And to say that the future is pretty good because three years from now Durant and Love are UFAs... don't you think that's stretching it? They have a past connection to DC, yes, but so what...? Oh, and btw, we'll have to extend Beal -- to a max deal we all hope! -- by then. So... where's this cap room in 2016?
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#906 » by Nivek » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:47 pm

Yeah, where is the $15-20 million to spend on a free agent coming from in 2014? These are the salaries that will be on the books:

Code: Select all

Player  Salary
Wall    13.7
Nene    13.0
Webster 5.4
Beal    4.5
Porter  4.5
Maynor  2.1
Rice    0.8
1stPick 1.6


That's $45.6 million against a cap that's going to be $59-60 million. So, a potential $13-14 million in cap room. IF they part ways with Okafor, Ariza, Vesely, Booker, Seraphin and Singleton. That's a lot of turnover for a front office that's been placing so much emphasis on continuity.

Rice's 2nd year may not be fully guaranteed, so they could get that money back. But, I think there are additional minimum salary cap holds required to get the team to 11 salary slots. They could get one of those back to sign a free agent. That would be roughly half a million more space. Need to check and see if they kept that in the new CBA.

That Maynor deal is looking better and better. :nonono:
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#907 » by Nivek » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:59 pm

Yep, I was mostly right on the minimum salary cap holds. The part I got wrong makes the situation slightly worse. :( There's an "incomplete roster charge" during the offseason if a team has fewer than 12 players under contract. When that happens, the team gets a cap hold in the amount of the rookie minimum for the number of players it would take to get them to 12.

So, from the list in my last post, the Wizards would have cap holds for 4 more rookie minimum salaries -- about $2 million total. If they released Rice to get back cap space, they'd only actually get back about $300k because they'd have to add in a new incomplete roster charge.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
jivelikenice
Analyst
Posts: 3,074
And1: 145
Joined: Jul 15, 2005

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#908 » by jivelikenice » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:13 pm

Nivek wrote:Yeah, where is the $15-20 million to spend on a free agent coming from in 2014? These are the salaries that will be on the books:

Code: Select all

Player  Salary
Wall    13.7
Nene    13.0
Webster 5.4
Beal    4.5
Porter  4.5
Maynor  2.1
Rice    0.8
1stPick 1.6


That's $45.6 million against a cap that's going to be $59-60 million. So, a potential $13-14 million in cap room. IF they part ways with Okafor, Ariza, Vesely, Booker, Seraphin and Singleton. That's a lot of turnover for a front office that's been placing so much emphasis on continuity.

Rice's 2nd year may not be fully guaranteed, so they could get that money back. But, I think there are additional minimum salary cap holds required to get the team to 11 salary slots. They could get one of those back to sign a free agent. That would be roughly half a million more space. Need to check and see if they kept that in the new CBA.

That Maynor deal is looking better and better. :nonono:


Doesn't Maynor have a PO for the second year? And I may have missed it but does your estimated '14 cap take into account the expected cap bump next season? I've also been thinking about it more and a scenario which I can see play out is the team using Otto as a tool to execute a S&T for a high priced FA big next season; especially if that team is 50/50 on re-signing that FA. They know they have Martell signed up long-term now and Glen Rice may also have the ability to play some three so this gives them flexibility to move Otto down the road if he can help us get a RFA big.
Ruzious
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 47,909
And1: 11,582
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#909 » by Ruzious » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:02 am

Nivek wrote:Yeah, where is the $15-20 million to spend on a free agent coming from in 2014? These are the salaries that will be on the books:

Code: Select all

Player  Salary
Wall    13.7
Nene    13.0
Webster 5.4
Beal    4.5
Porter  4.5
Maynor  2.1
Rice    0.8
1stPick 1.6


That's $45.6 million against a cap that's going to be $59-60 million. So, a potential $13-14 million in cap room. IF they part ways with Okafor, Ariza, Vesely, Booker, Seraphin and Singleton. That's a lot of turnover for a front office that's been placing so much emphasis on continuity.

Rice's 2nd year may not be fully guaranteed, so they could get that money back. But, I think there are additional minimum salary cap holds required to get the team to 11 salary slots. They could get one of those back to sign a free agent. That would be roughly half a million more space. Need to check and see if they kept that in the new CBA.

That Maynor deal is looking better and better. :nonono:

And rushing to pay top dollar for Webster when he's coming off a season that he AGAIN didn't finish in good health.

Again - do they have a plan that involves ANYTHING more than fielding an okay team?

What does the front office do that a pimply high school kid reading only the annual Sporting News basketball magazine can't do better?
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#910 » by Nivek » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:24 am

Jivelikenice: I haven't estimated what the cap will be next season. It probably will go up a bit. If the cap goes up, so does the max contract value.

Maynor's 2nd season is a player optiom. I don't think there's a realistic scenario where he opts out, though.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 70,646
And1: 23,139
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#911 » by nate33 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:42 am

Nivek wrote:Yep, I was mostly right on the minimum salary cap holds. The part I got wrong makes the situation slightly worse. :( There's an "incomplete roster charge" during the offseason if a team has fewer than 12 players under contract. When that happens, the team gets a cap hold in the amount of the rookie minimum for the number of players it would take to get them to 12.

So, from the list in my last post, the Wizards would have cap holds for 4 more rookie minimum salaries -- about $2 million total. If they released Rice to get back cap space, they'd only actually get back about $300k because they'd have to add in a new incomplete roster charge.

I think the incomplete roster charge only has to account for 11 players (with the 12th being the intended free agent that one is targeting with the cap room). Also, I think I read from Larry Coon or David Aldridge that the cap is projected to be up around $62M by 2014. With a payroll of 45.6M, that's how I arrive at the $15-20M figure. Frankly, it doesn't matter much. All we need is $14M to go after the RFA's like Cousins and Monroe.
User avatar
SUPERBALLMAN
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,701
And1: 1,369
Joined: Aug 08, 2006
     

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#912 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:30 am

nate33 wrote:
popper wrote:Ugh - great analysis on this page. It really does not look very promising. The only possibility I see to really upgrade the team (and reverse the EG first round bust syndrome) is to renounce Singleton and Booker.....trade Oke and or Ariza for young talent and start another mini-rebuild. Or, renounce Singleton and Booker and go over the cap next year to acquire another key player or two. Last, the wildcard here is Porter. I hope I'm wrong but there's a distinct possibility that he will be no more valuable than a minimum-salary veteran SF. Depressing ........... please fire EG ASAP Ted.

I wouldn't say that. I think the future is pretty good. We lack an elite young big man so it's tough to see us as legit contenders, but I think the prospects are good for us to win 45-50 games a year for the next several years. Basically, our long term core is Wall, Beal, Webster, Porter, Nene and whatever we can buy on the free agency market for $15-20M. If what we get is a stud big man, we should be in pretty good shape. If we get a hodgepodge of overpriced role players, then we'll be stuck in 45-win purgatory for a while.

We have two windows of opportunity to really improve the team: Summer 2014 and Summer 2016. In 2014, Okariza comes off the books and we can take a shot at Cousins or Monroe. If that doesn't pan out, we resign Okafor (or maybe someone like Pau Gasol) to a 2-year deal and then we'll have max cap room again in 2016 when Nene also comes off the books. In 2016, Durant and Love will be unrestricted free agents and both guys might be looking to move after several years of frustration with their existing team.




I like this.
"I love it when a plan comes together" - Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 24,898
And1: 9,248
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#913 » by payitforward » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:46 am

nate33 wrote:Also, I think I read from Larry Coon or David Aldridge that the cap is projected to be up around $62M by 2014. With a payroll of 45.6M, that's how I arrive at the $15-20M figure. Frankly, it doesn't matter much. All we need is $14M to go after the RFA's like Cousins and Monroe.

So then we'd have 9 guys under contract and be at the cap. Is that what you mean? And 2 of our most productive players would then be replaced by that FA.

How is this supposed to add up to "a 45-50 win team for several seasons?" Especially given that Cousins offers no particular advantage in productivity over Okafor. If anything, he's less productive. Compare their numbers off last season -- http://www.draftexpress.com/stats.php?y ... 18%5D=1318

Really seems like the "big time FA" next year is likely a myth. Anyway, I'd rather re-sign Okafor at a reasonable price and upgrade the 4 w/ what $$ we do have.
jivelikenice
Analyst
Posts: 3,074
And1: 145
Joined: Jul 15, 2005

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#914 » by jivelikenice » Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:42 am

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:Also, I think I read from Larry Coon or David Aldridge that the cap is projected to be up around $62M by 2014. With a payroll of 45.6M, that's how I arrive at the $15-20M figure. Frankly, it doesn't matter much. All we need is $14M to go after the RFA's like Cousins and Monroe.

So then we'd have 9 guys under contract and be at the cap. Is that what you mean? And 2 of our most productive players would then be replaced by that FA.

How is this supposed to add up to "a 45-50 win team for several seasons?" Especially given that Cousins offers no particular advantage in productivity over Okafor. If anything, he's less productive. Compare their numbers off last season -- http://www.draftexpress.com/stats.php?y ... 18%5D=1318

Really seems like the "big time FA" next year is likely a myth. Anyway, I'd rather re-sign Okafor at a reasonable price and upgrade the 4 w/ what $$ we do have.


Who's the 2nd productive FA you're referring too. Ariza? If you're referring to him then we already have an in house replacement in Otto...

What are we losing by renouncing all these guys outside of Okafor? Ariza will be replaced by Otto, Booker/Singleton/Vesely are replaceable by minimum contract players. Seraphin? Depends which version of him shows up.
User avatar
dangermouse
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,628
And1: 814
Joined: Dec 08, 2009

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#915 » by dangermouse » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:36 am

Put me down in the camp that thinks waiting for 2016 is better than busting our nut in 2014 on an inferior product.

I'd definitely sign Oka up to a 2 year deal, if he would take it. I think if we hit the playoffs this year he may, espeically if the money is more than other teams offer.

If we have enough in 2016 to re-sign Beal and sign one of Durant or Love, now that is a championship team. I like that way better than Cousins or Monroe coming here. I'm not even sure Monroe is better than just re-signing Oka. And Cousins.... its very tempting on paper.

With all the Durant unhappy in OKC talk, i think Ernie boy should plan for 2016.
Image
long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:
NatP4 wrote:but why would the pacers want Mahinmi's contract


Well, in fairness, we took Mike Pence off their hands. Taking back Mahinmi is the least they can do.
Ruzious
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 47,909
And1: 11,582
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#916 » by Ruzious » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:09 am

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:Also, I think I read from Larry Coon or David Aldridge that the cap is projected to be up around $62M by 2014. With a payroll of 45.6M, that's how I arrive at the $15-20M figure. Frankly, it doesn't matter much. All we need is $14M to go after the RFA's like Cousins and Monroe.

So then we'd have 9 guys under contract and be at the cap. Is that what you mean? And 2 of our most productive players would then be replaced by that FA.

How is this supposed to add up to "a 45-50 win team for several seasons?" Especially given that Cousins offers no particular advantage in productivity over Okafor. If anything, he's less productive. Compare their numbers off last season -- http://www.draftexpress.com/stats.php?y ... 18%5D=1318

Really seems like the "big time FA" next year is likely a myth. Anyway, I'd rather re-sign Okafor at a reasonable price and upgrade the 4 w/ what $$ we do have.

Using the cap space to sign Okafor is Grunfeldian. Saying that's a better plan than signing Cousins is completely giving up all hope and choosing to be mediocre. Cousins turned 23 this week. He's improved on his efficiency, and there's no reason to expect that trend won't continue. With improved efficiency, his over 20 PER will make his stats elite - and if you actually watch games, you'd know he can become one of the top handful of big men in the NBA very quickly. Hopefully, Grunfeld's moves haven't and won't totally sabotage the Wiz ability to get Cousins.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#917 » by hands11 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:29 am

nate33 wrote:
popper wrote:Ugh - great analysis on this page. It really does not look very promising. The only possibility I see to really upgrade the team (and reverse the EG first round bust syndrome) is to renounce Singleton and Booker.....trade Oke and or Ariza for young talent and start another mini-rebuild. Or, renounce Singleton and Booker and go over the cap next year to acquire another key player or two. Last, the wildcard here is Porter. I hope I'm wrong but there's a distinct possibility that he will be no more valuable than a minimum-salary veteran SF. Depressing ........... please fire EG ASAP Ted.

I wouldn't say that. I think the future is pretty good. We lack an elite young big man so it's tough to see us as legit contenders, but I think the prospects are good for us to win 45-50 games a year for the next several years. Basically, our long term core is Wall, Beal, Webster, Porter, Nene and whatever we can buy on the free agency market for $15-20M. If what we get is a stud big man, we should be in pretty good shape. If we get a hodgepodge of overpriced role players, then we'll be stuck in 45-win purgatory for a while.

We have two windows of opportunity to really improve the team: Summer 2014 and Summer 2016. In 2014, Okariza comes off the books and we can take a shot at Cousins or Monroe. If that doesn't pan out, we resign Okafor (or maybe someone like Pau Gasol) to a 2-year deal and then we'll have max cap room again in 2016 when Nene also comes off the books. In 2016, Durant and Love will be unrestricted free agents and both guys might be looking to move after several years of frustration with their existing team.


How often do teams get top players via out right cap space FA vs sign and trades or trades. Seems like you get more deal like the Harden, PP, KG ones then you do Howard to Houston. And teams that successfully do something like the Howard deal are usually good for several years first before they can do that. Teams want to maximize their assets. Players like Monroe will get matched/resigned. If you want him, you probably have to trade for him. Same with Cousins, etc. So I doubt the Wizards just let player walk so they have max cap. More likely the sign the ones that will retain some production, upside or trade value.

So instead of clearly a lot of cap space, another approach is to load the team up so it's just under the lux cap. Key is to have a mix of bigger contracts like Nene, Trevor A, Okafor and some mid levels. Goal is to make sure you actually have movable talent signed. For example, a player like Okafor is going to remain a valuable asset for another 3-4 year at least. Either a good team needs help from the bench or a team like SAC will need a solid professional vet to help it grown up. Kind of like the Wizards needed him. So Okafor resigned for 2-3 years on a reasonable contract makes sense for the Wizards. At a min he is a solid bench player, solid locker room guy. He helped Wall. He is the leader of workouts on the team. So I wouldn't be so quick to move him. Him signed is worth more then his cap space.

In that model you resign you own to good contracts, use the MLE to add pieces, draft and draft and stash, and keep the team near max but have all the contracts shorter and line up to end in 2016 when KD comes free. You manage you balance of vets like Nene, Okafor, Trevor A, Al so that Wall and Beal and other young players have something solid so they can develop.

This is the approach I expect them to take. They will lean toward resigning the players that still have upside and renounced, cut, or trade those that don't.

Singleton is in the back of the pack in my view, he might get cut, sent to the DL, traded or renounced.
Kevin will get resigned. He still has upside and should develop into a solid back up PF. Tradable in a package.
Temple at 1M is a FA UTR type. If he continues to be liked by the Wall, Beal, Randy, etc, they will resign him.
Trevor A - we have to see how that develops this year and if he would even want to resign here.

The only real big question as I see it is Ves, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if they ride it out. That's when the board goes on full melt down. Yeah, he is going to be way overpaid for what he produced so far but because of all the other moves I expect them to make, they are going to be over the cap anyway so all they will have it the MLE. So picking up his 4.4M option isn't really a big deal.

So a expect a full on board melt down before Oct 31 gets here.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 24,898
And1: 9,248
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#918 » by payitforward » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:08 pm

Ruzious wrote:
payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:Also, I think I read from Larry Coon or David Aldridge that the cap is projected to be up around $62M by 2014. With a payroll of 45.6M, that's how I arrive at the $15-20M figure. Frankly, it doesn't matter much. All we need is $14M to go after the RFA's like Cousins and Monroe.

So then we'd have 9 guys under contract and be at the cap. Is that what you mean? And 2 of our most productive players would then be replaced by that FA.

How is this supposed to add up to "a 45-50 win team for several seasons?" Especially given that Cousins offers no particular advantage in productivity over Okafor. If anything, he's less productive. Compare their numbers off last season -- http://www.draftexpress.com/stats.php?y ... 18%5D=1318

Really seems like the "big time FA" next year is likely a myth. Anyway, I'd rather re-sign Okafor at a reasonable price and upgrade the 4 w/ what $$ we do have.

Using the cap space to sign Okafor is Grunfeldian. Saying that's a better plan than signing Cousins is completely giving up all hope and choosing to be mediocre. Cousins turned 23 this week. He's improved on his efficiency, and there's no reason to expect that trend won't continue. With improved efficiency, his over 20 PER will make his stats elite - and if you actually watch games, you'd know he can become one of the top handful of big men in the NBA very quickly. Hopefully, Grunfeld's moves haven't and won't totally sabotage the Wiz ability to get Cousins.

We've already chosen to be mediocre -- that was the point of the Okariza trade. Ted started a rebuild "through youth and the draft" and then he blinked and instead of flushing out Lewis and continuing to actually re-do the roster from scratch, he gave us Okariza. So, yes, re-signing Okafor would be Grunfieldian.

The only disagreement we have is in our assessment of Cousins -- and it's not of his talent! I watch lots of games. I'd probably have picked him #1 in 2010. You point out what "he can become", and I won't disagree. But the question is what he will become, and there I'm not as sanguine as you. But, yes, he is an awesome talent.

Really, though, my post above was about the cap space -- I'm doubting it'll be there.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 70,646
And1: 23,139
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#919 » by nate33 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:10 pm

hands11 wrote:How often do teams get top players via out right cap space FA vs sign and trades or trades. Seems like you get more deal like the Harden, PP, KG ones then you do Howard to Houston. And teams that successfully do something like the Howard deal are usually good for several years first before they can do that. Teams want to maximize their assets. Players like Monroe will get matched/resigned. If you want him, you probably have to trade for him. Same with Cousins, etc. So I doubt the Wizards just let player walk so they have max cap. More likely the sign the ones that will retain some production, upside or trade value.

I agree that an outright signing is unlikely. The scenario I envision is one where Cousins makes it clear he doesn't want to play in Sacramento, so Sacramento is forced to make a sign and trade at 50 cents on the dollar. We'd have to give up some assets to get Cousins (probably some future picks and maybe Porter or Seraphin), but we'd get him without giving up Wall or Beal.

hands11 wrote:So instead of clearly a lot of cap space, another approach is to load the team up so it's just under the lux cap. Key is to have a mix of bigger contracts like Nene, Trevor A, Okafor and some mid levels. Goal is to make sure you actually have movable talent signed. For example, a player like Okafor is going to remain a valuable asset for another 3-4 year at least. Either a good team needs help from the bench or a team like SAC will need a solid professional vet to help it grown up. Kind of like the Wizards needed him. So Okafor resigned for 2-3 years on a reasonable contract makes sense for the Wizards. At a min he is a solid bench player, solid locker room guy. He helped Wall. He is the leader of workouts on the team. So I wouldn't be so quick to move him. Him signed is worth more then his cap space.

I don't know how you can say that about Okafor. He has no positive value given his contract, and if he is resigned, he will have, at best, a "fair" contract meaning his value will be roughly equal to that of cap room. UFA's are rarely signed and then moved for value in the immediate future. If we resign Okafor while maintaining thoughts of going after Durant in 2016, we better sign Okafor to a 2-year deal. In a trade scenario, OKC is going to prefer $10M or so in cap room rather than a 33 year old PF/C being paid $10M a year.

hands11 wrote:The only real big question as I see it is Ves, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if they ride it out. That's when the board goes on full melt down. Yeah, he is going to be way overpaid for what he produced so far but because of all the other moves I expect them to make, they are going to be over the cap anyway so all they will have it the MLE. So picking up his 4.4M option isn't really a big deal.

So a expect a full on board melt down before Oct 31 gets here.

You may be right about this. I definitely fear that EG will accept Vesely's 4th year option just so he doesn't have to admit that his #5 pick was a bust. It would be a mistake though. First of all, there is no reason to pay him $4.4M when we can decline his option then try and resign him at market value (which is probably a minimum salary contract or maybe the BAE), or sign somebody better to replace him. Secondly, we will have much more leverage with Sacramento or Detroit if we could credibly threaten to offer a max contract to Cousins/Monroe (and we Vesely dumped in order to do so). If our only way to acquire those guys is to get them to agree to absorb some of our salary in return, then they could simply refuse to trade.
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Official Trade Thread - Part XXIV 

Post#920 » by hands11 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:15 pm

jivelikenice wrote:
Nivek wrote:Yeah, where is the $15-20 million to spend on a free agent coming from in 2014? These are the salaries that will be on the books:

Code: Select all

Player  Salary
Wall    13.7
Nene    13.0
Webster 5.4
Beal    4.5
Porter  4.5
Maynor  2.1
Rice    0.8
1stPick 1.6


That's $45.6 million against a cap that's going to be $59-60 million. So, a potential $13-14 million in cap room. IF they part ways with Okafor, Ariza, Vesely, Booker, Seraphin and Singleton. That's a lot of turnover for a front office that's been placing so much emphasis on continuity.

Rice's 2nd year may not be fully guaranteed, so they could get that money back. But, I think there are additional minimum salary cap holds required to get the team to 11 salary slots. They could get one of those back to sign a free agent. That would be roughly half a million more space. Need to check and see if they kept that in the new CBA.

That Maynor deal is looking better and better. :nonono:


Doesn't Maynor have a PO for the second year? And I may have missed it but does your estimated '14 cap take into account the expected cap bump next season? I've also been thinking about it more and a scenario which I can see play out is the team using Otto as a tool to execute a S&T for a high priced FA big next season; especially if that team is 50/50 on re-signing that FA. They know they have Martell signed up long-term now and Glen Rice may also have the ability to play some three so this gives them flexibility to move Otto down the road if he can help us get a RFA big.


Right. Otto is just an asset at this point. Only players inked as long term keepers are Wall and Beal.

It could end up they resign Trevor A and trade Otto. Who knows. We need to see him play first.

So much can happen and lots of it will play out this season. We really don't have enough information to figure it out from here but their a options. Been saying that all along. Trevor A and Okafor was not a dead end for the rebuild. It was a key part of it.

Only real important things right now are to make the playoffs so Wall and Beal get that experience and that they have movable assets that have good value. Just keep building. Raise the teams cred and exposure to the league. We already see that happening. And in doing so with a solid roster of vets and younger players, players will develop like Wall and Beal are.

Again, there is a large window with Wall and Beal so young. That in itself make these stuck at average projections pretty meaningless.

They have been rebuilding since Ted took over. He is in it for the longer term. Not the quick fix. Playoffs this year and target 2016 to add that next big younger stud like a KD who is a legit target to come here if they keep doing what they are doing.

For next year, they would likely target a Dirk or Gasol in a sign and trade. Basically top level PFs with deep playoff experience.

I see Nene and Okafor projected as the centers unless they can acquire an Asik. They can add depth via the draft.

Maybe they can luck into a Patrick Patterson.

There are options.

Return to Washington Wizards