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Bradley Beal - Part III

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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1461 » by Kanyewest » Mon Oct 5, 2020 12:51 am

nate33 wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:
i dont like the fit for a number of reasons... That said, the value isnt bad.

You need wings... so keep Cam Johnson and throw in Okobo plus another future 1st (Make 2022 top 8 protected and add in 2024 1st)
We would also look for a 3rd team for Oubre. We've done this dance with him before and prefer not to re-up with him, especially given that he would be a win now piece and we would be rebuilding.


On the Athletic beat writer mock draft, the Warriors beat writer was willing to trade the #2 pick for the #10 pick and Kelly Oubre.

I'd do that if I was the Warriors. Oubre is a real nice fit for what they need as a 3&D guy who can defend both forward positions. And the #10 isn't that much worse than the #2 in this draft, particularly if you are in a win-now position. Over the next 2 years, a guy like Vassell or Halliburton might help you win more playoff games than a guy like Edwards or Wiseman.

It would be a dream scenario for them if Okongwu was still available at #10. That's unlikely, but if Golden State could work out a 3-way with Detroit where they ultimately get back the #7 pick instead of the #10 that would be ideal.


Yeah the Warriors beat writer really wanted Vassell but he went number 8 to the Hawks. The Suns ended up taking Halliburton at #2. And Okongwu ended up on the Wizards. So they settled for Obi Toppin.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1462 » by Ruzious » Mon Oct 5, 2020 10:38 am

vtime wrote:If Phoenix wanted to pair Beal with Booker what would it take? Would the following package do it?

Ayton
Oubre
Cam Johnson
Mikal Bridges
2020 #10
2022 top 5 protected 1st

That's an entire good team for Beal. I can't imagine Phoenix would consider it.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1463 » by nate33 » Mon Oct 5, 2020 1:35 pm

Ruzious wrote:
vtime wrote:If Phoenix wanted to pair Beal with Booker what would it take? Would the following package do it?

Ayton
Oubre
Cam Johnson
Mikal Bridges
2020 #10
2022 top 5 protected 1st

That's an entire good team for Beal. I can't imagine Phoenix would consider it.

They'd have nobody left to put around Beal and Booker. And it's not like Beal and Booker are Kawhi and Paul George. They may be exceptional offensive players, but they're shooting guards who are going to need some quality defensive players around them to match up with big teams.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1464 » by pcbothwel » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:45 pm

nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
vtime wrote:If Phoenix wanted to pair Beal with Booker what would it take? Would the following package do it?

Ayton
Oubre
Cam Johnson
Mikal Bridges
2020 #10
2022 top 5 protected 1st

That's an entire good team for Beal. I can't imagine Phoenix would consider it.

They'd have nobody left to put around Beal and Booker. And it's not like Beal and Booker are Kawhi and Paul George. They may be exceptional offensive players, but they're shooting guards who are going to need some quality defensive players around them to match up with big teams.


Agreed... So let them keep Oubre and Cam while adding Okobo and a future 1st.

Booker
Beal
Oubre
Saric
Baynes

Bench: Rubio, Cam Johnson, Jerome, MLE (Noel or WCS)

I dont LOVE any single piece... but the overall value is hard to beat.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1465 » by payitforward » Mon Oct 5, 2020 3:27 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
vtime wrote:If Phoenix wanted to pair Beal with Booker what would it take? Would the following package do it?

Ayton
Oubre
Cam Johnson
Mikal Bridges
2020 #10
2022 top 5 protected 1st


i dont like the fit for a number of reasons... That said, the value isnt bad.

You need wings... so keep Cam Johnson and throw in Okobo plus another future 1st (Make 2022 top 8 protected and add in 2024 1st)
We would also look for a 3rd team for Oubre. We've done this dance with him before and prefer not to re-up with him, especially given that he would be a win now piece and we would be rebuilding.

Biggest problem is that you have us absorbing 5 players (including #10 pick) while we only send out 1 player. How do you finish your roster? pcbothwei's version makes it more extreme.

How about this for another iteration that doesn't tie you down long-term but does help this year:
Cam Johnson stays in the deal -- plus Bridges & Okobo.
You also send us Jevon Carter (you have no minutes for him!)
In addition to Beal, we send you Jerome Robinson (lottery pick 2 years ago), Moritz Wagner, & Ish Smith.
You find a 3d team that wants Oubre & will give a low R1 pick this year for him -- pick comes to us.
Your 2022 R1 pick, top-8 protected, to us.

Smith provides solid coverage at PG & is expiring. Wagner gives you a prospect at C this year, & you don't have to keep him longer than that. Ditto Robinson.

Seems to help both teams significantly. We do lose the best player. But, we accelerate our rebuild w/ 6 young players (Bridges, Johnson, Okobo, Carter, #10 pick, lower R1 pick) & an extra pick 2 years out.

PG - Wall, Okobo,
SG - Bridges, Johnson, Carter
SF - Brown, Bonga
PF - Bertans, Hachimura
C - Ayton, Bryant

In addition, we have Mathews plus the #9, #10, #2-(?) & #37 picks this year.
Make sense?
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1466 » by payitforward » Mon Oct 5, 2020 3:37 pm

Ok, having read nate & ruzious, maybe I go too far. They can keep Carter.

Can we have Diallo instead? Keep in mind that we are also sending Wagner, Robinson & Smith. So they do have players to put around Booker/Beal.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1467 » by pcbothwel » Mon Oct 5, 2020 4:13 pm

payitforward wrote:Ok, having read nate & ruzious, maybe I go too far. They can keep Carter.

Can we have Diallo instead? Keep in mind that we are also sending Wagner, Robinson & Smith. So they do have players to put around Booker/Beal.


PIF... A few things
1) Sending Ish doesnt make sense as they would then have 20M in back PG's that dont play as well off ball in Rubio and Ish
2) I would want more for Oubre than a late 1st. No only is he a solid starting wing, but we would be taking on the salary of what they send out and we need to compensated for that.
3) I value a protected 2024 pick over Cam Johnson. Cam is a low ceiling plug and play wing that is perfect for the Suns in this scenario. He would simply be filler here and probably buried on the bench as we would have Bridges, Brown, Bonga, and our pick (Vassell/Haliburton).


My last issue is simple... How much better is Ayton than Bryant? Ayton has more defensive upside due to physical tools, but the gap isnt that big while Bryant has proven to be a better shooter/scorer while a better passing/playmaking prowess...
Im sure he would be an upgrade in the long run.. but by how much, especially considering that they cant play together and we would need to trade Bryant.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1468 » by Ruzious » Mon Oct 5, 2020 6:29 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
payitforward wrote:Ok, having read nate & ruzious, maybe I go too far. They can keep Carter.

Can we have Diallo instead? Keep in mind that we are also sending Wagner, Robinson & Smith. So they do have players to put around Booker/Beal.


PIF... A few things
1) Sending Ish doesnt make sense as they would then have 20M in back PG's that dont play as well off ball in Rubio and Ish
2) I would want more for Oubre than a late 1st. No only is he a solid starting wing, but we would be taking on the salary of what they send out and we need to compensated for that.
3) I value a protected 2024 pick over Cam Johnson. Cam is a low ceiling plug and play wing that is perfect for the Suns in this scenario. He would simply be filler here and probably buried on the bench as we would have Bridges, Brown, Bonga, and our pick (Vassell/Haliburton).


My last issue is simple... How much better is Ayton than Bryant? Ayton has more defensive upside due to physical tools, but the gap isnt that big while Bryant has proven to be a better shooter/scorer while a better passing/playmaking prowess...
Im sure he would be an upgrade in the long run.. but by how much, especially considering that they cant play together and we would need to trade Bryant.

Yeah, I might forward Ayton to another team - not that he isn't a very good player, but I'm not sure he'd have a big impact on the Wiz. There's probably several teams in the West that'd like to have him and give a lot to get him - just so they can compete with the Lakers.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1469 » by payitforward » Mon Oct 5, 2020 9:37 pm

pcbothwel wrote:1) Sending Ish doesnt make sense as they would then have 20M in back PG's that dont play as well off ball in Rubio and Ish...

Rubio was 3d in minutes on the Suns this year. He's their starting PG.

pcbothwel wrote:2) I would want more for Oubre than a late 1st. No only is he a solid starting wing, but we would be taking on the salary of what they send out and we need to compensated for that....

Irrelevant. We aren't trading Oubre. They're getting an asset for Oubre that they need to give us in the trade. If they can get more for him than that, then of course we can ask for that to be included. But my iteration of the trade doesn't actually involve Kelly Oubre. That said, it's true that I haven't looked at whether my version would work on the trade machine.

In addition, I should add: no, I don't think Oubre is a "solid starting wing." I don't think he's significantly better than he was his last year with us. Feel free to tell me what I'm missing (using numbers of course :) ).

pcbothwel wrote:3) I value a protected 2024 pick over Cam Johnson. Cam is a low ceiling plug and play wing that is perfect for the Suns in this scenario. He would simply be filler here and probably buried on the bench as we would have Bridges, Brown, Bonga, and our pick (Vassell/Haliburton)....

A lot here that is questionable: a) How do you know what Cam Johnson's ceiling is? He was, among other things, a whole bunch better than Rui Hachimura as a rookie; b) what difference does it make whether he "fits" here -- he has trade value, so if we don't want him we'll move him; c) "a protected 2024 pick" has very little value -- see "the present value of an asset." A dollar today is worth a ton more than a dollar you're going to give me in 4 years.

edit to add -- who says our pick will be Vassell or Haliburton?

pcbothwel wrote:My last issue is simple... How much better is Ayton than Bryant? Ayton has more defensive upside due to physical tools, but the gap isnt that big while Bryant has proven to be a better shooter/scorer while a better passing/playmaking prowess...
Im sure he would be an upgrade in the long run.. but by how much, especially considering that they cant play together and we would need to trade Bryant.

Some people think a basketball team is like, say, a painting -- you need some of this color, some of that color, some of a 3d color -- & all the colors have to go well together too. But, that's not what a basketball team is like. A basketball team is like a bank account. You have a certain amount of "good playing" on your squad. The more you have the better. Period.

Why am I calling that "a bank account?" Because the more you have in it the easier it is to trade for a good player at a position of need. IOW, Ayton will bring us a better player at whatever other position we want than will a player less good than Ayton.

The only caveat is -- & this might be important -- that he got worse rather than better as a 2d year player. That does worry me.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1470 » by payitforward » Mon Oct 5, 2020 9:53 pm

This discussion of a trade that would send Beal to the Suns is really a fantasy. 100%. I doubt anyone in the Suns FO is spending any cycles working on this.

Or, better, it's an exercise in thinking about how a trade for a really high-value player like Brad might work. In this trade idea, what happens is that his value gets turned into a high number of players & other assets coming back. I.e. he doesn't get traded for a single player of similar value.

That seems to make sense, since rebuilding would be the reason to trade him, & what's useful in a rebuilding situation is numbers of young players
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1471 » by darmani » Tue Oct 6, 2020 8:51 am

This is hilarious.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1472 » by payitforward » Thu Oct 8, 2020 11:00 pm

darmani wrote:This is hilarious.

Meaning...?
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1473 » by Ruzious » Thu Oct 8, 2020 11:44 pm

payitforward wrote:
darmani wrote:This is hilarious.

Meaning...?

There's a sign that says Don't feed the Suns homer. Just sayin.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1474 » by payitforward » Thu Oct 8, 2020 11:55 pm

It was a Suns homer that proposed trading for Beal.... But, who knows what he has in mind to describe as "hilarious?" After all, there are a lot of different ways of being a "homer," right?
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1475 » by payitforward » Thu Oct 8, 2020 11:58 pm

Truth is, the big thing that would prevent the Suns trading for Beal is that he & Booker could not co-exist. This season the two of them totaled 45 shots per 40 minutes!
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1476 » by prime1time » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:05 am

It’s an interesting trade offer, but until I can evaluate Wall and Beal together it’s a no for me. You can offer whatever you want but getting Beal in a trade, if we do decker to trade him, will be a sweepstakes where teams are pitted against each other. Imo, New Orleans has more to offer.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1477 » by pancakes3 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:46 am

saw a trade proposal floating around: Wiggins + Warriors #2 overall in this draft + Warriors' 2021 first round pick from Minny + Warrior's 2021 second round pick from Minny.

The 2021 pick is top 3 protected, and unprotected in 2022. It's a gamble to see if we can get an unprotected first rounder in 2022 - the double-draft year but damn, makes you think.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1478 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:14 am

pancakes3 wrote:saw a trade proposal floating around: Wiggins + Warriors #2 overall in this draft + Warriors' 2021 first round pick from Minny + Warrior's 2021 second round pick from Minny.

The 2021 pick is top 3 protected, and unprotected in 2022. It's a gamble to see if we can get an unprotected first rounder in 2022 - the double-draft year but damn, makes you think.

That proposal has been floated a hundred times. It's horrible. Absolutely terrible.

I don't think you are factoring what a negative value Wiggins is. The guy is a net negative player who doesn't like basketball, and is paid $32M a year for the next 3 years. You would have to give me that Minny pick, and then some, just to absorb Wiggins' contract, which basically means you are trading Bradley Beal for the #2 pick in this horrible draft.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1479 » by pancakes3 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:25 am

i'm all about hinkie-ing the double-draft.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1480 » by WizarDynasty » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:09 am

nate33 wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:saw a trade proposal floating around: Wiggins + Warriors #2 overall in this draft + Warriors' 2021 first round pick from Minny + Warrior's 2021 second round pick from Minny.

The 2021 pick is top 3 protected, and unprotected in 2022. It's a gamble to see if we can get an unprotected first rounder in 2022 - the double-draft year but damn, makes you think.

That proposal has been floated a hundred times. It's horrible. Absolutely terrible.

I don't think you are factoring what a negative value Wiggins is. The guy is a net negative player who doesn't like basketball, and is paid $32M a year for the next 3 years. You would have to give me that Minny pick, and then some, just to absorb Wiggins' contract, which basically means you are trading Bradley Beal for the #2 pick in this horrible draft.


If we are getting anthony edwards plus drafts additional drafts for this year and next, sign me up. Edwards is worth it. Edwards is worth it, that's if he has similar character and work ethic that Beal has. If he has questionable character, then I will pass and keep Beal.

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