ImageImageImageImageImage

Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder

Moderators: montestewart, LyricalRico, nate33

Wizardspride
RealGM
Posts: 13,801
And1: 8,123
Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Location: Olney, MD/Kailua/Kaneohe, HI
       

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#561 » by Wizardspride » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:17 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Washington won this trade.

Disagree.

Perhaps we didn't lose in this trade but I don't see how we "won" it either.


Imo, it was a pointless trade.
President Trump told two senior Russian officials in a 2017 Oval Office meeting that he was unconcerned about Moscow’s interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election because the United States did the same in other countries
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 59,696
And1: 12,382
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#562 » by nate33 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:21 pm

NatP4 wrote:In the end, we basically gave up a 1st round pick for the intangibles that Westbrook brings to the team. We aren’t going to win a championship in the next couple of years, and we weren’t going to with Wall either.

I agree.

The only confounding factor is Beal's impending free agency. If Westbrook's intangibles add a few more wins while instilling a better team attitude of hard work and accountability, that could be what convinces Beal to stay. I have to admit, I like the demeanor of the team over these last 12 games more than I liked it in the first half of 2018-19 when Wall was playing but the team was losing and everyone got excited about "everyone eats" after Wall got hurt.
NatP4
RealGM
Posts: 10,832
And1: 3,543
Joined: Jul 24, 2016
         

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#563 » by NatP4 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:35 pm

nate33 wrote:
NatP4 wrote:In the end, we basically gave up a 1st round pick for the intangibles that Westbrook brings to the team. We aren’t going to win a championship in the next couple of years, and we weren’t going to with Wall either.

I agree.

The only confounding factor is Beal's impending free agency. If Westbrook's intangibles add a few more wins while instilling a better team attitude of hard work and accountability, that could be what convinces Beal to stay. I have to admit, I like the demeanor of the team over these last 12 games more than I liked it in the first half of 2018-19 when Wall was playing but the team was losing and everyone got excited about "everyone eats" after Wall got hurt.


The enthusiasm from the fanbase (social media&casual fans) has been unreal compared to any other season that I have been a wizards fan. Russell Westbrook has his own cult-like fanbase, it’s crazy.

The players seem to all genuinely like each other and enjoy playing together. I think they actually have something going here and I’m curious about what moves they can make to add to the team.
Ruzious
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 44,174
And1: 8,882
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#564 » by Ruzious » Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:22 pm

And everyone's buying into playing defense for the first time in I don't know when. They certainly weren't doing that earlier in the season. I'm not sure who deserves the credit for that improvement - or if it will continue, but I like it. I think it started with Westbrook getting healthy.
"Look, you never know when you may need to borrow a cup of sugar, maybe some milk or a handgun" - Dan C. from Texas
pcbothwel
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,904
And1: 1,963
Joined: Jun 12, 2010
     

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#565 » by pcbothwel » Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:34 pm

Wizardspride wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Washington won this trade.

Disagree.

Perhaps we didn't lose in this trade but I don't see how we "won" it either.


Imo, it was a pointless trade.


We are a ways a way from determining a win vs loss, but it certainly wasnt pointless. Fact is, this team could never become Beal's until Wall was gone.

Wiz were always going to be Walls team. Dwight in Orlando. Rose with the Bulls. AD in NOP. Harden in Houston. Russ in OKC.
Once a player is the face of the franchise, there is really no moving past it. Russ could never take a backseat in OKC, but he can here.

Russ seems to have a positive effect with the young guys, and he's getting better by the week.
- His rebounding and AST:TOV are at the same level as the previous 5 years.
- His FTr is the same as the previous 3 years
- His shooting % at the rim and within 10 feet are at career highs, while his other shooting % are around his career average

It comes down to two things, both of which I feel good about:
1) Shot selection: Despite shooting a career high at the rim, only 20% of his shots are within 3 feet. This is a career low and half the rate he attempted last year.
On the positive, he was at 14% at the end of January. Since then he has been shooting 25% of his FGA within 3 feet at a 62% success rate. If his keeps up then his TS will be 50%+ in the next 5-6 games. If he gets back to 35% of his shots at the rim, then he could actually be a real plus scorer (Cant believe im typing that... lol)

2) FT%: Russ is shooting an abysmal 61% from the line. And to be honest, its trending in the wrong direction. The reason Im hopeful is that FT% seems to be mental, especially for a guy that has shot 7,000 career Free throws at an 81% rate (Including Playoffs). It's certainly possible that he has the yips for the entire year, or even the rest of his career (God I hope not)... But there is too large of a sample size for this.

Point is. We dont need Russ to be a better shooter, rebounder, or passer (More consistent defender...certainly). We just need him to continue to do what he's done over the last couple weeks and hope his FTs start to fall. He'll be a 52-53% TS guy averaging a triple double in no time. I'll take it.

Physically, He is the same size or bigger than Wall, Beal, Smart, Gary Harris, DiVincenzo, Jerome Robinson, etc... So Im not too worried about his lost step. This isnt IT or Kemba we're talking about.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 59,696
And1: 12,382
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#566 » by nate33 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:00 pm

pcbothwel wrote:Wiz were always going to be Walls team. Dwight in Orlando. Rose with the Bulls. AD in NOP. Harden in Houston. Russ in OKC. Once a player is the face of the franchise, there is really no moving past it. Russ could never take a backseat in OKC, but he can here.

This is a great point.
Ruzious
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 44,174
And1: 8,882
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#567 » by Ruzious » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:30 pm

Hmm, Wall for Kemba works in the trade checker. Both have 2 more years left. Houston would save money. Boston would get a dynamic player... to pass to Bertans. :)
"Look, you never know when you may need to borrow a cup of sugar, maybe some milk or a handgun" - Dan C. from Texas
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 59,696
And1: 12,382
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#568 » by nate33 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:49 pm

Ruzious wrote:Hmm, Wall for Kemba works in the trade checker. Both have 2 more years left. Houston would save money. Boston would get a dynamic player... to pass to Bertans. :)

I like it for both teams. Though I'd rather not have to play against Wall 4 times a year. (Though I suppose Kemba has been a pretty consistent Wizards-killer himself lately.)

Wall's size would eliminate the defensive issues of covering for Kemba. And Wall would aggressively get to the rim and the free throw line, something that the Celtics definitely lack. Their perimeter shooting would suffer, but that's where Bertans comes in. The bulk of their non-center rotation could be covered with Wall, Smart, Brown, Tatum and Bertans, with Pritchard and Williams filling in the remainder. I like it.
pcbothwel
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,904
And1: 1,963
Joined: Jun 12, 2010
     

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#569 » by pcbothwel » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:55 pm

Ruzious wrote:Hmm, Wall for Kemba works in the trade checker. Both have 2 more years left. Houston would save money. Boston would get a dynamic player... to pass to Bertans. :)


Why would Houston do this? The cost savings?
The only thing Kemba has been better at Wall at has been shooting/scoring. But Kemba looks cooked and Wall now appears to have surpassed him there. And Wall is far better defensively.
Unless they are getting a real asset or getting out of the last year of his contract, I dont see Houston making a move like this.
User avatar
doclinkin
RealGM
Posts: 10,646
And1: 2,814
Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Location: .wizuds.

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#570 » by doclinkin » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:56 pm

Ruzious wrote:And everyone's buying into playing defense for the first time in I don't know when. They certainly weren't doing that earlier in the season. I'm not sure who deserves the credit for that improvement - or if it will continue, but I like it. I think it started with Westbrook getting healthy.


I credit Hachimura for growing into his role as a 5-spot defender. He no longer worries if he is in the right place, he picks his match-up and gets after it. When you don't need to switch the perimeter every play then your big can stay at home to cover the lane on P&R plays (Lopez can be giant and not need to chase. Wagner can shift into positon for charges). One solid defender can make offenses shade away from that side of the court and suddenly there is time to recover to get in the lane and deter interior attacks. And if offenses are only attacking one side, then half the players on court are no longer a threat.

I also give credit to our center tandem of Lopez (in particular) and Wagner who are not the liability on D that Bryant has been.
Ruzious
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 44,174
And1: 8,882
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#571 » by Ruzious » Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:54 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Ruzious wrote:And everyone's buying into playing defense for the first time in I don't know when. They certainly weren't doing that earlier in the season. I'm not sure who deserves the credit for that improvement - or if it will continue, but I like it. I think it started with Westbrook getting healthy.


I credit Hachimura for growing into his role as a 5-spot defender. He no longer worries if he is in the right place, he picks his match-up and gets after it. When you don't need to switch the perimeter every play then your big can stay at home to cover the lane on P&R plays (Lopez can be giant and not need to chase. Wagner can shift into positon for charges). One solid defender can make offenses shade away from that side of the court and suddenly there is time to recover to get in the lane and deter interior attacks. And if offenses are only attacking one side, then half the players on court are no longer a threat.

I also give credit to our center tandem of Lopez (in particular) and Wagner who are not the liability on D that Bryant has been.

I do too, but I'm thinking Westbrook had something to do with motivating them - or at least motivating Rui - based on what Rui said. I just hope they keep it up. Hustling energetic defense makes the games so much more fun to watch.
"Look, you never know when you may need to borrow a cup of sugar, maybe some milk or a handgun" - Dan C. from Texas
lastemp3ror
Junior
Posts: 282
And1: 62
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
   

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#572 » by lastemp3ror » Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:55 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Washington won this trade.

Disagree.

Perhaps we didn't lose in this trade but I don't see how we "won" it either.


Imo, it was a pointless trade.



Wiz were always going to be Walls team. Dwight in Orlando. Rose with the Bulls. AD in NOP. Harden in Houston. Russ in OKC.
Once a player is the face of the franchise, there is really no moving past it. Russ could never take a backseat in OKC, but he can here.
.


Agreed. The best example is Wade with Miami when James and Bosh joined him. Clearly James was the best player on that team and in the NBA for that matter, but it was still Wade's team.
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 47,806
And1: 6,317
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Location: Mililani, Hawaii (Oahu)
Contact:
       

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#573 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:07 am

Wizardspride wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Washington won this trade.

Disagree.

Perhaps we didn't lose in this trade but I don't see how we "won" it either.


Imo, it was a pointless trade.


Fair enough. Time will tell, WP.

My opinion is only based on Westbrook having found himself the last few games.

I thought the trade was a "douchebag" move. They didn't even give John Wall the opportunity to run with "his" team while healthy. Was it all because of the (apparently) gang signs? Was there someting the rest of us aren't privy to?

We DID WIN IMO in terms of Russell being a bit older, a bit of a conventional family man, and him having EXPERIENCE and STAMINA AT BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. John Wall had been doing things with what I felt was dubious leadership. Entitlement was what I think he felt. Westbrook plays HARD even if reckless.

Wizardspride, you probably read my posts at the time of the trade. THEY SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST WAITED to see how well Wall could play.
I think they should Trade Beal

(Spoken in desperate frustration)
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 47,806
And1: 6,317
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Location: Mililani, Hawaii (Oahu)
Contact:
       

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#574 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:08 am

lastemp3ror wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:
Wizardspride wrote:Disagree.

Perhaps we didn't lose in this trade but I don't see how we "won" it either.


Imo, it was a pointless trade.



Wiz were always going to be Walls team. Dwight in Orlando. Rose with the Bulls. AD in NOP. Harden in Houston. Russ in OKC.
Once a player is the face of the franchise, there is really no moving past it. Russ could never take a backseat in OKC, but he can here.
.


Agreed. The best example is Wade with Miami when James and Bosh joined him. Clearly James was the best player on that team and in the NBA for that matter, but it was still Wade's team.


Now, the Wizards are Beal's team.
I think they should Trade Beal

(Spoken in desperate frustration)
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 47,806
And1: 6,317
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Location: Mililani, Hawaii (Oahu)
Contact:
       

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#575 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:39 am

lastemp3ror wrote:There is a lot of talk about comparison stats between Westbrook and Wall, which is a discussion of present value. But what about future value? As an example, another major factor is their injury risk. It is more likely that Wall goes down for a serious chunk of time, based on historical knowledge of other players with similar injuries. He may not even return to playing professionally. It seems like a lot of people on this board are not factoring that in, which is a MAJOR concern with Wall. I know Westbrook hasn't had the best health either, but between the two, give me Westbrook all day.


We're on the same page.

I wish John the best. Right now Russell seems the better bet to grind out games moving forward. John COULD surprise and continue to play just as he's playing.

What I HOPE is that John gets traded to Dallas or some other team that wants him. Houston's a dead end IMO.
I think they should Trade Beal

(Spoken in desperate frustration)
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 16,086
And1: 5,135
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#576 » by payitforward » Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:38 am

You guys underrate the value of a R1 pick. Now, if we don't have to give it, then the trade was ok.

OTOH, you also may be overreacting to a few games in which Russ has been better.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 47,806
And1: 6,317
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Location: Mililani, Hawaii (Oahu)
Contact:
       

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#577 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:10 pm

Pif, about the heavily conditional pick, it gives the Wizards time now. Russell is mentor to Rui now. Beal needed the marquee now. He’d be number two banana to Wall’s ego now had the trade not been made. They had to include the pick to get it done now

Houston would not have done it without the pick, because Westbrook was considered the better player.
I think they should Trade Beal

(Spoken in desperate frustration)
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 59,696
And1: 12,382
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#578 » by nate33 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:00 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:John Wall had been doing things with what I felt was dubious leadership. Entitlement was what I think he felt. Westbrook plays HARD even if reckless.

I think this is a much bigger factor than people acknowledge. I really don't think Wall was a good leader, even though he was great at making his teammates better on the floor. Wall's teams were always inconsistent and frustratingly overconfident, playing down to the level of their competition.

The team's relative success in the playoffs (beating higher seeds) was actually an indictment of their lackluster regular season efforts. Those teams had the talent to win 50+ games but instead won 43-49 games.
User avatar
Kanyewest
General Manager
Posts: 8,345
And1: 1,630
Joined: Jul 05, 2004

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#579 » by Kanyewest » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:42 pm

The Rockets have come down to earth, losing their last 10 games without Christian Wood.
NatP4
RealGM
Posts: 10,832
And1: 3,543
Joined: Jul 24, 2016
         

Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#580 » by NatP4 » Mon Mar 1, 2021 4:55 am

Wow. Wall had 14 points on 4-16 shooting with 0 assists and 0 rebounds 5 turnovers and was -33 in a 50 point loss.

Rockets 11th loss in a row.

Brandon Clarke had 16&12 on 9 shots in 20 minutes!!! and was +28. Xavier Tillman had 5&3&2 in 19 minutes and was +29. Sigh.

Return to Washington Wizards