King of Empty stats

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

Monta Ellis--- When he donned an NBA jersey

FTFY

[Shock Defeat]

Kevin Martin

[taikibansei]

Amazing.

This changes everything.

Weird that someone without an argument finds a way to be sarcastic.

I have yet to see an argument from you. Wow his true shooting percentage is amazing , must be nice shooting wide open 3s when the offense is focused on LeBron. I was talking about his Minny days anyways , he was not nearly the impactful player his stats say he was.

In 2014, Love finished with a 26.9 PER (same as Duncan’s 2003 MVP season, higher than Barkley’s MVP season, and higher than all three of Bird’s MVP seasons) and .245 win shares per 48 minutes (higher than Bird’s three MVP seasons, LeBron’s first Miami season and Barkley’s MVP season). The 2014 Wolves were 6.1 points better than opponents when Love played...and 5.6 points worse than opponents when he rested. That's just about a 12-point swing.

http://grantland.com/features/kevin-love-lebron-james-trade-minnesota-timberwolves/

Who takes it from this site:
http://stats.nba.com/teamOnOffSummary.html?TeamID=1610612750

As for the seasons prior to that, I've posted on this before. His first two years, Love was a back-up to Al Jefferson. Who were the other starters? On the 2008-9 roster, it was Ryan Gomes, Randy Foye, Mike Miller and Sebastian Telfair. Of that starting line-up, only two players were NBA caliber starters—and one (Al Jefferson) played Love’s position. (This was one of the hallmarks of the Twolves throughout the "Love" era…Love’s most capable "help" almost invariably played Love’s position.) Keep in mind that Love--as a rookie coming off the bench and playing just 25 minutes a game--led that Twolves team in win shares (5.3 to Jefferson’s 4.9), and was second in rebounding, second in blocked shots and fourth in points.

In 2009-10, the starting line-up featured Al Jefferson, Corey Brewer, Ryan Gomes, Jonny Flynn...and Darko Milicic. Just one NBA caliber starter in that line-up, and (yet again) he played Love's position. Yet Kahn, ignoring Love, would argue that Milicic was the key, seeing him as the second coming of both Vlade and Webber (e.g., below):
http://deadspin.com/5588342/darko-milicic-is-bread-from-god-and-other-crazy-things-david-kahn-believes
This was part of another Twolves pattern--overvaluing the quality and contributions of the players besides Love. Oh, despite coming off the bench and playing just 28 minutes a game, Love led that Twolves team in win shares (4.9 to Jefferson’s 4.6) and rebounds, and was second in points. Keep in mind that Love also led the league in offensive rebound rate and posted a per-36-minute line of 15.8 points and 12.9 rebounds per game, yet coach Kurt Rambis (whom Kahn hired before the season) refused to start Love.

So, for the first two years, Love was coming off the bench behind the only NBA starter-caliber player on the roster. Then, in 2010-11, Love won the MIP award--and people on REALGM exploded in multiple threads about Love's supposedly "empty" stats and how "his" team had never made the playoffs. However, from March 20 of that season (when he left the game injured) until the season's bitter end, the Wolves went 0-12, losing by almost 15 points per game without Love. The box score for the last Twolves' victory that season is below:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201103110MIN.html

Look at that starting lineup for the Twolves: Beasley, Milicic, Ridnour and Wesley Johnson, with Jonny Flynn the first guy off the bench. Face it, outside of Love, the construction of that team was historically bad. The second best player on that team overall was Beasley...who would go on to lose his starting job in 2012 on the 23-46 (.333) Suns, for heck's sake! I.e., that that year's Twolves didn’t set futility records of some sort or other testifies to Love's greatness, frankly.

Did this make Love the franchise player? Nope. Everyone here knows about the contract, the short-changing in years given, and how it was given to Love in the locker room after a loss:

I have heard from people I trust that David Kahn presented Love with a contract offer in the training room -- not sure if it was the only formal offer ever made or the latest -- after Monday's loss to Houston and that Love was seen leaving Target Center with it crumpled in his hand and visibly angry.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/138024983.html

Keep in mind that Kevin Love was averaging 24.9 points and 13.9 rebounds per game at that time. If he had finished the season with those averages, he'd have been the first player to do so since Moses Malone in 1981-82.

Note also that the crux of the matter was that Taylor and Kahn wanted to save the "designated player" money for either Rubio...or Derrick Williams.

The four-year deal gives the Timberwolves some flexibility going forward and keeps that maximum offer available for point guard Ricky Rubio, No. 2 overall pick Derrick Williams or another player down the road.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7502324/kevin-love-minnesota-timberwolves-reach-four-year-deal-opt-out

Understandably, because Kahn thought Ricky Rubio and Jonny Flynn were going to be the next Walt Frazier and Earl Monroe:
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/ex-timberwolves-gm-david-kahn-reportedly-thought-ricky-154255546.html

And Taylor thought Love was not a star:

Sometime during all of this, Wolves owner Glen Taylor -- who in 2007 accused Garnett of “tanking” -- said Love wasn’t a star because he hadn’t led the team to the playoffs, a sentiment so delusional it begs the question of if Taylor had ever looked at his own roster.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/70176/kevin-love-lost-in-minnesota

This link also gives a good summary of things:
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/5/3/4296498/david-kahn-fired-timberwolves-kevin-love-jonny-flynn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now, Ricky Rubio was a good player overall, with the potential to improve--I thought at the time that he could even become a perennial all-star. Still, you needed to watch the games to fully understand the problems. I was actually at this game:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201312220LAC.html
Rubio went for zero (0) points against the Clippers in 39 minutes (while Love went for 45/19/6/1 on 60% shooting against Griffin ) and some Twolves fans (links available if necessary) were blaming the loss on Love/Adelman. Note that the Clippers were double-teaming Love with Rubio's guy--i.e., Rubio was basically being left unguarded (and still couldn't hit a shot). Repeatedly, I watched the Clippers bench actually LAUGH at Rubio for being too scared to/unable to score. Also, look at Pek’s stats—the guy was a potential stud, but his game was redundant with Love on there. Both were above average scorers/rebounders (with Love being obviously the better of the two). Both were also actually decent man-to-man defenders in the post--just sucked at help defense and at protecting the rim in rotations. I.e., their strengths/weaknesses were redundant—which again was a common theme of the Twolves drafts/trades over most of the Love years. Beasley (really a PF), Dante Cunningham, Derrick Williams (really a PF), Anthony Randolph, Anthony Tolliver--the common theme under Kahn was to bring in people with the same skills as Love, then force either him or them to play out of position.

So, yeah, I think Love did have a positive impact on the Twolves. However, there's only so much that one player can do.

[jonjames]

Ricky Davis
Antwawn Jamison
Shareef Abdur Rahim
Kevin Love
Devin Booker

[DanLanghiOwnsAll]

Russell Westbrook

[RGM_SU]

In 2014, Love finished with a 26.9 PER (same as Duncan’s 2003 MVP season, higher than Barkley’s MVP season, and higher than all three of Bird’s MVP seasons) and .245 win shares per 48 minutes (higher than Bird’s three MVP seasons, LeBron’s first Miami season and Barkley’s MVP season).

And that is why stats don't tell the whole story. Love was never as good as the players you listed. In Minnesota Love was the major reason for the Timberwolves being competitive. But he was also a reason for the Timberwolves always finishing below their expected win total in his time there.

[taikibansei]

In 2014, Love finished with a 26.9 PER (same as Duncan’s 2003 MVP season, higher than Barkley’s MVP season, and higher than all three of Bird’s MVP seasons) and .245 win shares per 48 minutes (higher than Bird’s three MVP seasons, LeBron’s first Miami season and Barkley’s MVP season).

And that is why stats don't tell the whole story. Love was never as good as the players you listed. In Minnesota Love was the major reason for the Timberwolves being competitive. But he was also a reason for the Timberwolves always finishing below their expected win total in his time there.

Did you read the rest of my post? Give me just one example of a year that the Twolves finished "below their expected win total."

Good luck with that!

[Edrees]

The hawks and pacers are the king of empty stats, both their stadiums lead the league in empty seats.

Hawks stats:
14,138 seats filled per home game

Pacers stats:
14,792 seats per home game

They are the king of empty stats, for sure.

[KobeBryant24]

LeBron , seen him in so many fourth quarter of blowout games. Wont lie im kind of jealous because Phil would never allow that for Kobe. It's probably bc Lebron is the coach lol.

[jonjames]

The hawks and pacers are the king of empty stats, both their stadiums lead the league in empty seats.

Hawks stats:
14,138 seats filled per home game

Pacers stats:
14,792 seats per home game

They are the king of empty stats, for sure.

Hawks have the worst fans in the league. Fairweather lukewarm fans who show up to cheer for the other teams players.They dont deserve an nba team.give that franchise to seattle.

[RGM_SU]

Did you read the rest of my post? Give me just one example of a year that the Twolves finished "below their expected win total."

Good luck with that!

2010-11: Expected W/L 24-58 - actual W/L 17-65
2011-12: Expected W/L 28-38 - actual W/L 26-40
2012-13: Expected W/L 34-48 - actual W/L 31-51
2013-14: Expected W/L 48-34 - actual W/L 40-42

Point differential says they should've won the expected number of games. And in each of the seasons he was the main guy there did they finish below it. Says something about inability to win close games.

[afarmenian]

SAR and Jerry Steakhouse all time. Dwight Howard right now. His stats always look good and it never seems to correlate to winning one way or another.

[dhsilv2]

Did you read the rest of my post? Give me just one example of a year that the Twolves finished "below their expected win total."

Good luck with that!

2010-11: Expected W/L 24-58 - actual W/L 17-65
2011-12: Expected W/L 28-38 - actual W/L 26-40
2012-13: Expected W/L 34-48 - actual W/L 31-51
2013-14: Expected W/L 48-34 - actual W/L 40-42

Point differential says they should've won the expected number of games. And in each of the seasons he was the main guy there did they finish below it. Says something about inability to win close games.

Shows bad luck, not inability to win close games.

[Black Jack]

Joe Barry Carroll. He had some good statistical years, averaged 24 ppg one year I think. But still.

I remember watching him go up against Benoit Benjamin, clash of the titans

[RGM_SU]

Did you read the rest of my post? Give me just one example of a year that the Twolves finished "below their expected win total."

Good luck with that!

2010-11: Expected W/L 24-58 - actual W/L 17-65
2011-12: Expected W/L 28-38 - actual W/L 26-40
2012-13: Expected W/L 34-48 - actual W/L 31-51
2013-14: Expected W/L 48-34 - actual W/L 40-42

Point differential says they should've won the expected number of games. And in each of the seasons he was the main guy there did they finish below it. Says something about inability to win close games.

Shows bad luck, not inability to win close games.

When it happens once, it's luck. When it happens over the span of multiple years you are making it very easy on yourself to say it's luck. Raw box score statistics always overrated Love. Love's RPM or RAPM for his prime years in Minnesota don't look nearly as impressive.

[dhsilv2]

2010-11: Expected W/L 24-58 - actual W/L 17-65
2011-12: Expected W/L 28-38 - actual W/L 26-40
2012-13: Expected W/L 34-48 - actual W/L 31-51
2013-14: Expected W/L 48-34 - actual W/L 40-42

Point differential says they should've won the expected number of games. And in each of the seasons he was the main guy there did they finish below it. Says something about inability to win close games.

Shows bad luck, not inability to win close games.

When it happens once, it's luck. When it happens over the span of multiple years you are making it very easy on yourself to say it's luck. Raw box score statistics always overrated Love. Love's RPM or RAPM for his prime years in Minnesota don't look nearly as impressive.

RAPM looks pretty darn good to me.

I don't feel like digging in, but only 2 years there look "bad" in terms of point differential. That's hardly enough data to draw a conclusion from.

[young11a]

how the hell yall saying demar his team gonna win 50 for the 4th straight year but somehow his stats are empty????

how about a guy like kat who gets #s and gives up just as much with his brutal defense or that scrub booker who couldnt guard his own shadow. And melo of course

[young11a]

The hawks and pacers are the king of empty stats, both their stadiums lead the league in empty seats.

Hawks stats:
14,138 seats filled per home game

Pacers stats:
14,792 seats per home game

They are the king of empty stats, for sure.

lol yet kobe still took way more shots than lebron biggest hog of all time he made allen iverson look like steve nash

[taikibansei]

2010-11: Expected W/L 24-58 - actual W/L 17-65

"However, from March 20 of that season (when he left the game injured) until the season's bitter end, the Wolves went 0-12, losing by almost 15 points per game without Love. The box score for the last Twolves' victory that season is below:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201103110MIN.html
Look at that starting lineup for the Twolves: Beasley, Milicic, Ridnour and Wesley Johnson, with Jonny Flynn the first guy off the bench. Face it, outside of Love, the construction of that team was historically bad. The second best player on that team overall was Beasley...who would go on to lose his starting job in 2012 on the 23-46 (.333) Suns, for heck's sake! I.e., that that year's Twolves didn’t set futility records of some sort or other testifies to Love's greatness, frankly."

2011-12: Expected W/L 28-38 - actual W/L 26-40

Due to injury, Love missed the first month, and played in just 55 games total. Of these, the Twolves had 24 wins, with 31 losses. In other words, they would have exceeded the expected win total if Love had stayed healthy.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01/gamelog/2012/

2012-13: Expected W/L 34-48 - actual W/L 31-51

Love was injured and only played 18 games. Note that the Twolves had 9 wins and 9 losses (.500) in those games. In other words, they would have exceeded the expected win total if Love had stayed healthy.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01/gamelog/2013/

2013-14: Expected W/L 48-34 - actual W/L 40-42

"The 2014 Wolves were 6.1 points better than opponents when Love played...and 5.6 points worse than opponents when he rested. That's just about a 12-point swing[...]. Still, you needed to watch the games to fully understand the problems. I was actually at this game:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201312220LAC.html
Rubio went for zero (0) points against the Clippers in 39 minutes (while Love went for 45/19/6/1 on 60% shooting against Griffin ) and some Twolves fans (links available if necessary) were blaming the loss on Love/Adelman. Note that the Clippers were double-teaming Love with Rubio's guy--i.e., Rubio was basically being left unguarded (and still couldn't hit a shot). Repeatedly, I watched the Clippers bench actually LAUGH at Rubio for being too scared to/unable to score."



Edited to add: While you could perhaps argue that Love was somewhat injury-prone, I can't see how you can argue that he wasn't positively impacting the Twolves when healthy. The bottom line was that whenever Love sat--whether due to injury or just to rest--the Twolves went into a death spiral. There was nobody else on that roster to take up the slack on offense. Rubio couldn't score in an empty gym, and Pek, while capable, was most effective in the post (limited range) and injured about as much as Love.

[RGM_SU]

RAPM looks pretty darn good to me.

Let's take 2013-14 where his WS/BPM/PER topped out. Those metrics (and traditional statistics) says he had one of the best PF seasons ever. However, his RPM is good, but not exactly outpacing the opposition. His 5.06 ranks 5th for PFs that season. 35-year old Dirk Nowitzki led it with 6.35. RAPM has him at 3.63, with Dirk again being the best PF at 5.17. And his 3.63 (career high) isn't all that impressive if you put it next to the great PF seasons of the last 15 years. Dirk Nowitzki, Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett all had season which completely dwarf his 3.63. Again, I'm not saying he is a bad player, he is a very good one. But, he just is not historically great.