What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[Kawaii Leonard]

6/6

Ahh yes, Jordan played in only 6 NBA seasons and won a championship every year.

Yup and he definitely could’ve went 8/8 if he didn’t retire to dominate baseball too.

[MavsDirk41]

Richard Hamilton?

Wouldn’t really consider the wizards years as serious. But either way, Gilmore, are not close to the top talent lebron played with. Would all rank after kukoc

Why wouldn't you consider Jordan's years with the Wizards serious? Jordan was the same age Lebron is now. Lebron just took the Lakers to the western conference finals beating Steph Curry. Jordan was just a selfish scorer with the Wizards who couldn't even get them to the playoffs!

James had Davis. Jordan had Rip Hamilton. You want to compare those two?

[MavsDirk41]

Every time the 6/6 finals argument is used, a kitten dies. Think about the kittens fellas.

Then think about why it’s better to lose in rounds 1-3 than it is to lose in the finals.

Now we know you have a Jordan bias, because only people with a Jordan bias would use that argument. Just focus on other arguments, because using that argument over and over only shows that bias.

There is no bigger stage than the NBA finals so it does mean something. Now Lebron has performed amazingly in some of those losses so you can’t just use how many losses, but some of the losses are inexcusable. Obviously Dallas matters, the biggest stage, the heavily favored team and just an awful performance. That matters.

Let’s go through the list:

2007: took an insane performance from LeBron to get to the finals, his team was overmatched in the finals

2011: I will give you this one of course, they lost to Dallas as a favorite.

2014: This one kind of a wash, they lost as a slight underdog.

2015: lost his 2nd and 3rd best players to injury, still took the Warriors to 6

2017-18: completely overmatched, KD Warriors

Jordan has won as a favorite every time, and lost as an underdog every time. LeBron has often won as an underdog, in many of those runs through the east, and a few times lost as a favorite.

That finals streak is an argument in Lebron’s favor, anyone saying anything otherwise is being silly or biased.

You want to compare the talent on those Heat teams (Wade and Bosh) to any tandem Jordan played with?

[MavsDirk41]

How many Jordan fans are reading through this thread and feeling great about the quality of data-driven arguments for Jordan as GOAT?

You can't possibly look around this thread and feel confident about your position. Not saying Jordan as GOAT is wrong but it would be cool to see some effort made in the reasoning department.

Show me some lebron james data driven stuff you guys talk about

[zimpy27]

How many Jordan fans are reading through this thread and feeling great about the quality of data-driven arguments for Jordan as GOAT?

You can't possibly look around this thread and feel confident about your position. Not saying Jordan as GOAT is wrong but it would be cool to see some effort made in the reasoning department.

Show me some lebron james data driven stuff you guys talk about

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2301003

[DB23]

[tweet][/tweet]

Richard Hamilton?

Wouldn’t really consider the wizards years as serious. But either way, Gilmore, are not close to the top talent lebron played with. Would all rank after kukoc

Why wouldn't you consider Jordan's years with the Wizards serious? Jordan was the same age Lebron is now. Lebron just took the Lakers to the western conference finals beating Steph Curry. Jordan was just a selfish scorer with the Wizards who couldn't even get them to the playoffs!

What lebron is doing now is amazing but sports science and load management has also changed the game and athlete performance considerably over the last 25-30 years.

[SelfishPlayer]

Wouldn’t really consider the wizards years as serious. But either way, Gilmore, are not close to the top talent lebron played with. Would all rank after kukoc

Why wouldn't you consider Jordan's years with the Wizards serious? Jordan was the same age Lebron is now. Lebron just took the Lakers to the western conference finals beating Steph Curry. Jordan was just a selfish scorer with the Wizards who couldn't even get them to the playoffs!

James had Davis. Jordan had Rip Hamilton. You want to compare those two?

Jordan got the same results before Pippen and after Pippen, no second round playoff appearance... Lebron got the same results before playing with Hall of Famers and after playing with them, DEEP PLAYOFF RUNS!

[Wingy]

Every time the 6/6 finals argument is used, a kitten dies. Think about the kittens fellas.

Then think about why it’s better to lose in rounds 1-3 than it is to lose in the finals.

Now we know you have a Jordan bias, because only people with a Jordan bias would use that argument. Just focus on other arguments, because using that argument over and over only shows that bias.

There is no bigger stage than the NBA finals so it does mean something. Now Lebron has performed amazingly in some of those losses so you can’t just use how many losses, but some of the losses are inexcusable. Obviously Dallas matters, the biggest stage, the heavily favored team and just an awful performance. That matters.

Let’s go through the list:

2007: took an insane performance from LeBron to get to the finals, his team was overmatched in the finals

2011: I will give you this one of course, they lost to Dallas as a favorite.

2014: This one kind of a wash, they lost as a slight underdog.

2015: lost his 2nd and 3rd best players to injury, still took the Warriors to 6

2017-18: completely overmatched, KD Warriors

Jordan has won as a favorite every time, and lost as an underdog every time. LeBron has often won as an underdog, in many of those runs through the east, and a few times lost as a favorite.

That finals streak is an argument in Lebron’s favor, anyone saying anything otherwise is being silly or biased.

Overcame the Pistons that one series otherwise when were they an underdog and won? You used the word “often” during that weak LEastern Conference era? Warriors too, right? When Steph was dinged, Bogut was out as moron Draymond ’kicked’ the series to them? If you are going to call out the weakened state of the Cavs in 2015, then you must also recognize injury also helped deliver Lebron’s greatest achievement.

The reason the Bulls were the favorite and won as the favorite was because of Jordan’s greatness. He wouldn’t ever let that pathetic Mavs series happen at the peak of his career.

Respect to Lebron. He is a legend, an absolute icon. Pick any superlative because he is that guy. Any except GOAT that is.

[JordansBulls]

There are 32 panelist on the project and at least 16 of them are Lebron fans primarily.

Regarding why MJ over Lebron

Lebron is a great player for sure top 3-4 all time and even higher. Jordan was better though. He turned a losing franchise into a dynasty. Won more titles, league mvp's and finals mvp's in shorter years in the league. Lebron hopped from three different teams with stars on multiple of those teams and two instances with 2 stars each time. He has 4 titles in 20 seasons (Curry a guy in his era has as many in less seasons). He won 1 title in 11 seasons with the franchise that drafted him (Hakeem did better than that) and that with coming back and having 2 stars and even having Shaq one of those years. Lebron has missed the playoffs as much as titles won. Also with forming superteams and joining multiple stars I would expect more titles. He did say not 4 not 5 not 6 not 7.
He also won multiple bronze medals for the USA in the Olympics and FIBA and was down at least 3-2 in every series of his career until 2020 and 5 years in a row with HCA 3-2 while losing 3 series in a row with it.

Also lost as the preseason favorite in each of these seasons to these teams.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_preseason_odds.html (Dallas 7th)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_preseason_odds.html (San Antonio 6th)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_preseason_odds.html (Golden State 8th)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html (Lakers 1st)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html (Lakers 2nd)

[MavsDirk41]

How many Jordan fans are reading through this thread and feeling great about the quality of data-driven arguments for Jordan as GOAT?

You can't possibly look around this thread and feel confident about your position. Not saying Jordan as GOAT is wrong but it would be cool to see some effort made in the reasoning department.

Show me some lebron james data driven stuff you guys talk about

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2301003

Lol thats more impressive or has more meaning then anything i posted? I can also post stuff on here that would show Kareem as the greatest ever. Or Wilt. Or Russell. Those little graphs are cute tho lol

[MavsDirk41]

Why wouldn't you consider Jordan's years with the Wizards serious? Jordan was the same age Lebron is now. Lebron just took the Lakers to the western conference finals beating Steph Curry. Jordan was just a selfish scorer with the Wizards who couldn't even get them to the playoffs!

James had Davis. Jordan had Rip Hamilton. You want to compare those two?

Jordan got the same results before Pippen and after Pippen, no second round playoff appearance... Lebron got the same results before playing with Hall of Famers and after playing with them, DEEP PLAYOFF RUNS!

Lol he has stacked the deck in his favor since leaving Cleveland in 2010 pal

[SelfishPlayer]

[tweet][/tweet]

Wouldn’t really consider the wizards years as serious. But either way, Gilmore, are not close to the top talent lebron played with. Would all rank after kukoc

Why wouldn't you consider Jordan's years with the Wizards serious? Jordan was the same age Lebron is now. Lebron just took the Lakers to the western conference finals beating Steph Curry. Jordan was just a selfish scorer with the Wizards who couldn't even get them to the playoffs!

What lebron is doing now is amazing but sports science and load management has also changed the game and athlete performance considerably over the last 25-30 years.

If what you say is true, why are so many players getting serious injuries? How many players 30 years ago were injured in front of us like Shaun Livingston and Paul George?
How many guys were chronically injured throughout their careers like Derrick Rose and Joel Embiid? Some players over that period of time were actually destroyed by surgeons performing poorly.

[Lalouie]

cant be rings cuz russell has 11
cant be scoring cuz wilt was unmatched
cant be breadth of career because kareem has that wrapped up
cant be skillset because there are many and it's all subjective anyway
cant be longevity/consistancy because lebron has that

like any GOAT criteria it's ALL a matter of the visuals, which is subjective. people get wrapped up in the visuals

[SelfishPlayer]

James had Davis. Jordan had Rip Hamilton. You want to compare those two?

Jordan got the same results before Pippen and after Pippen, no second round playoff appearance... Lebron got the same results before playing with Hall of Famers and after playing with them, DEEP PLAYOFF RUNS!

Lol he has stacked the deck in his favor since leaving Cleveland in 2010 pal

I'm glad Lebron got away from Danny Ferry...

[Wingy]

Sure you’ve seen this one. Give Lebron KD’s career accolades. Still not equal to Jordan.

[knicksNOTslick]

6/6

Ahh yes, Jordan played in only 6 NBA seasons and won a championship every year.

Yup and he definitely could’ve went 8/8 if he didn’t retire to dominate baseball too.

I guess it's better to be 4-20 jumping around to different teams, while draining all their assets to build a contender, desperately chasing rings and stats to self proclaim yourself as the GOAT

[BeatDaCavs420]

How many Jordan fans are reading through this thread and feeling great about the quality of data-driven arguments for Jordan as GOAT?

You can't possibly look around this thread and feel confident about your position. Not saying Jordan as GOAT is wrong but it would be cool to see some effort made in the reasoning department.

Ah now it makes sense why Lebron stans get to run wild around here without issue

[NZB2323]

Why wouldn't you consider Jordan's years with the Wizards serious? Jordan was the same age Lebron is now. Lebron just took the Lakers to the western conference finals beating Steph Curry. Jordan was just a selfish scorer with the Wizards who couldn't even get them to the playoffs!

James had Davis. Jordan had Rip Hamilton. You want to compare those two?

Jordan got the same results before Pippen and after Pippen, no second round playoff appearance... Lebron got the same results before playing with Hall of Famers and after playing with them, DEEP PLAYOFF RUNS!

You think Lebron winning with Anthony Davis is more impressive than Jordan winning with Pippen?

In 98 Pippen only played in 44 games, has a migraine in game 6, and during the playoffs averaged 17, 7, and 5 on 50 TS%, 19.5 PER.

In 2020 AD played in 62 games during a shortened 71 game season, and during the playoffs averaged 28, 10, and 4 on 66.5 TS%, 29.6 PER.

And I know that stats don’t capture defense, but AD was phenomenal defensively during that playoff run.

And if we’re going by data, I don’t think there’s any data that puts Pippen above Wade or AD.

[knicksNOTslick]

cant be rings cuz russell has 11
cant be scoring cuz wilt was unmatched
cant be breadth of career because kareem has that wrapped up
cant be skillset because there are many and it's all subjective anyway
cant be longevity/consistancy because lebron has that

like any GOAT criteria it's ALL a matter of the visuals, which is subjective. people get wrapped up in the visuals

So you're picking and choosing categories but measuring who is the GOAT you have to have all the stuff you mentioned plus the actual dominance during your peak, MJ has all of that.

People can talk about player A or player B as the GOAT all they want. But for me, the true measure is how well you stacked up against your peers and your dominance in your era. Because those really all that we can see. We will never see prime MJ vs prime Lebron but we have seen the games of MJ against his peers as well as Lebron against his peers. Who truly dominated their era? Those are tangible things that can be measured. The rest is just speculation.

MJ dominated his era, he won 6 rings and denied a lot of HOFers from getting a ring. Lebron's era, would you say he was as dominant? Because he only ruled half the league, the East. He lost to the Mavs in 2011 as the favorite and he ran into the Spurs. The Warriors was unfair matchup, I'll give him that. But Lebron really didn't dominate his era if you want to compare him against his peers. That's really all we can measure. Everything else you can't.

[durden_tyler]

Sure you’ve seen this one. Give Lebron KD’s career accolades. Still not equal to Jordan.