MVP Rankings 1.0

[Benedict_Boozer]

A 6'6" 200 pound guard is expected to compare to a 6'8" 270 pound beast in terms of FG %? Still, 48% to 50% isn't huge.

Is a 6'8 270 pound beast expected to compare to a 6'6 200 pound guard in terms of ball-handling, playmaking, and court-vision? Lebron does.

Argument can be spun both ways.

[JimMurray]

LeBron's played some of the best D of his career over the last month. There's nothing wrong with his D. He currently looks as good as ever.

Nothing...other than the fact that Kobe's D has been better. I'll agree with you there.

Oh Please. LeBron's statistical edge is hardly insignificant.

LJ 28.8 ppg(FG% .502), 6.9 rpg, 7.8 rpg, 1.4 spg, 0.8 bpg, 30.0 PER
KB 29.8 ppg(FG% .483), 5.8 rpg, 4.3 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.2 bpg, 24.5 PER

LeBron has a 16% edge in rebounds, 45% edge in assists, 75% edge in blocks, 18% edge in PER and is the FAR more efficient scorer. All Kobe has going for him is 1 extra ppg, only so because he takes 3 more FGA.

***clears throat***...........


ONE IS A TWO, THE OTHER IS A THREE/FOUR!

The statistical difference is insignificant. Furthermore, percentages are only effective for evaluation purposes for sample sizes greater than 1,000. You don't remember this in statistics class? The numbers I presented are far more representative visually in terms of what is actually happening on the court.

Huh? What exactly is this supposed to prove? The difference between LeBron's edge in bpg(75%) is A LOT bigger than Kobe's edge in spg(36%). If anything, the defensive stats are on LeBron's side too.

Wow...

*****clears throat*****.......

ONE IS A TWO, THE OTHER IS A THREE/FOUR!

The statistical difference is insignificant. Furthermore, percentages are only effective for evaluation purposes for sample sizes greater than 1,000. You don't remember this in statistics class? The numbers I presented are far more representative visually in terms of what is actually happening on the court.

Please. Kobe has a jammed finger on his shooting hand, it's called an avulsion fracture and according to doctors, it has 90% of its functionality during the healing process. In other words - IT'S A NON ISSUE, and Kobe's play since the supposed "injury" further backs this up.

As far as the strained elbow's concerned, this is a joke right? He hurt it in his last game an it's been an issue for 1 freaking qtr this entire season.

Wow...you're a doctor too?! GTF outta here!

Have you ever played basketball? If it were such an insignificant injury, then explain to me why Lebron would miss two weeks with a SPRAINED finger on his NON-SHOOTING HAND? And actually, Kobe's play confirms that clearly it's more of an issue than he's letting on, as his shooting percentages are down across the board since the injury.

And the strained elbow is absolutely not a joke...he's really going to go play with that from this point on. And if he still puts up Kobe numbers, thats pretty effin impressive...wouldn't you agree?

Umm, how? He has a 1 1/2 game lead despite a better cast and playing just about the softest schedule a team has ever started off with. His individual numbers are significantly inferior in every way and his "injury" is a sham.

What do you say to logic like that? I understand that you hate Kobe...and after reading many of your posts, I understand that you LOATHE him, a sentiment that was exacerbated in the playoffs last season. I sympathize with you, and I hate to do it...but I have to hit you with this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEkWH8DB7b0&NR=1

How's Kobe's cast not IMPROVED from last season? LA acquired Artest for Ariza, and Bynum's play has been better too. And again, I also don't see why Kobe's inability to stay healthy(which is a bunch of BS anyway) should be LeBron's issue in the MVP race. The less durable and the less productive guy somehow becomes more valuable? Weird logic.

Artest for Ariza was an even swap, I cite the drop in offensive efficiency and increase in defensive efficiency as my evidence. Bynum has been GARBAGE ever since Pau's come back....utterly useless. And I understand you want to ignore all the injuries that Bryant is playing through because it hurts your argument...but it's not going away. You and I both know the media eats that up like a steak dinner after weeks of a salad only diet.

Kobe's still perceived to have a much better cast than LeBron, and that perception is FACT. A 2-3 game lead in the standings will be IRRELEVANT for him when it comes to the MVP voting. Kobe better have something else going for him besides team record to win MVP.

Actually it won't. Because you and I both know that the gap between LA and Cleveland's supporting cast isn't as great as previously thought. You and I both know that when the season is over, the Lakers will have played a SIGNIFICANTLY stronger schedule than the Cavs, and you and I both know that the statistical advantage held by Lebron isn't as great as you want to believe it is.

[semi-sentient]

Jim, your posts are a joy to read.

[Optms]

Jim. You aren't giving anyone else the opportunity to make the same points around here.

Shame on you.

[Father Time]

Jim, I applaud you.

[HouMac]

other than the fact that Kobe's D has been better.

Not from the games I've seen recently. Kobe still gambles too much.

ONE IS A TWO, THE OTHER IS A THREE/FOUR!

Which would've been relevant if LeBron's statistical edge merely ended at RPG. But their positional differences does not explain his massive edges in scoring efficiency, assists, blocks and PER. This isn't even getting into the rest of the ADVANCED stats, where LeBron owns Kobe even more so.

Wow...you're a doctor too?! GTF outta here!

No, I'm merely repeating what doctors themselves have said about an avulsion fracture, which is what Kobe has. This injury is nothing more than media and nuthugger made BS. Kobe's on-court play has done all the talking about how "hurt" he really is.

Kobe's play confirms that clearly it's more of an issue than he's letting on, as his shooting percentages are down across the board since the injury.

Incorrent. He's averaged 33.4 ppg on 47% shooting in 8 games since the injury. For the season he averages 30/48%. Clearly, the guy's doing fine.

And the strained elbow is absolutely not a joke...

The strained elbow was nothing more than Kobe hitting his funny bone. It stings for a few minutes and then goes away. Kobe himself said a couple of days ago that his elbow is FINE, and he expects it to be a non-issue for tonight's game against Phoenix.

“The elbow’s fine … next question,” said Bryant before reporters even had a chance to ask. “It’s not like a lingering thing, just a stinger that will go away.”

Kobe concluded that he doesn’t expect the elbow (or his finger, or knee) to inhibit him when the Lakers face the Suns on Monday night in Phoenix.

It's a testament to Kobe not having much going for himself right now against LeBron in this MVP race that his fans have to resort to exaggerating minor to nonexistent injuries. Whatever happened to sticking to actual facts like wins and losses and boxscore production? I guess fans realize those aren't on Kobe's side right now(due to cupcake schedule and LeBron's statistical dominance), so "stories media likes" is all they have left.

What do you say to logic like that?

Huh? I made perfectly legitimate points that are based in FACTS.

Fact 1) LA has played the softest schedule in the league thus far 2) Kobe's cast is superior to Kobe's.

Translation - LeBron's the MVP as of right now.

[yiskobesogood]

Ok, let's look at those supporting casts.

+/-? Kobe doesn't have the highest ON court nor OFF court +/- on his team. In fact he has only fourth best ON court numbers and he is behind Ron Artest in OFF court numbers. LeBron is 2nd in ON court and the best in OFF court.

Roland rating? Kobe has two teammates with roland rating over +11 (12.6 and 11.9 - that's top10 in the league apart from anomalies of players who play very very little, no kidding!). LeBron's best teammate has +8.2. Kobe has other two teammates who have better roland rating than Cavs' third best. To top it all, LeBron has higher roland rating than Kobe.

Thats great. And the Lakers have the better record your point? If the Lakers had a worse record tehan the Cavs this might bare some merit, but unfortunately, Kobe is doing more with more, and Lebron is doing less with less....dont get the theory there...

[yiskobesogood]

Can anyone give me factual evidence as to why Kobe shouldn't be MVP right now that actually has to do with Kobe? It seems everyone on the Lebron side gives great evidence as to why Lebron should be MVP and there is a solid argument...but when it comes to Kobe the arguments have little to do with Kobe and more about good his teammates are playing, how Lebron is better, Jordan was more clutch etc...does Kobe not have numbers of an MVP? Does Kobe not have the best record in the league? The Answers are yes.

[JimMurray]

Not from the games I've seen recently. Kobe still gambles too much.

No he doesn't.

Which would've been relevant if LeBron's statistical edge merely ended at RPG. But their positional differences does not explain his massive edges in scoring efficiency, assists, blocks and PER. This isn't even getting into the rest of the ADVANCED stats, where LeBron owns Kobe even more so.

The problem with your argument is that they are NOT MASSIVE. Also....look at the PER standings. Seriously...take a look. What you will notice is that of the top 20 PER leaders in the league....FOUR OF THEM are guards. Those players are Kobe, CP3, Nash, and Wade. Of the top 50 PER leaders only FOURTEEN are guards. Wrap your mind around that for a minute...and then re-evaluate what you understand PER to mean.

No, I'm merely repeating what doctors themselves have said about an avulsion fracture, which is what Kobe has. This injury is nothing more than media and nuthugger made BS. Kobe's on-court play has done all the talking about how "hurt" he really is.

Have you ever had an avulsion fracture? That's a BROKEN BONE. Have you ever had a broken finger? I sure have...on my non shooting hand...and I couldn't so much as dribble, let alone shoot. Kobe adjusted his shot to fit the injury, that's how he was still able to be Kobe. People are nut huggin him BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE CAN DO IT...OR WOULD EVEN TRY TO DO IT.

Incorrent. He's averaged 33.4 ppg on 47% shooting in 8 games since the injury. For the season he averages 30/48%. Clearly, the guy's doing fine.

How is 47% not less than 48%? Especially since he was over 50% prior to the injury? And your damn right he's doing fine, and the fact that he hasn't noticeably missed a beat is amazing.

The strained elbow was nothing more than Kobe hitting his funny bone. It stings for a few minutes and then goes away. Kobe himself said a couple of days ago that his elbow is FINE, and he expects it to be a non-issue for tonight's game against Phoenix.

When your arm goes numb for an entire quarter including two overtimes...that's actually a strain...not hitting your funny bone on the corner of a desk.

“The elbow’s fine … next question,” said Bryant before reporters even had a chance to ask. “It’s not like a lingering thing, just a stinger that will go away.”

Kobe would say he was fine...if you shot him in the face.

Kobe concluded that he doesn’t expect the elbow (or his finger, or knee) to inhibit him when the Lakers face the Suns on Monday night in Phoenix.

I wouldn't argue with that logic, especially considering a broken finger on his shooting hand hasn't managed to knock him off his game. Why wouldn't he say this?

It's a testament to Kobe not having much going for himself right now against LeBron in this MVP race that his fans have to resort to exaggerating minor to nonexistent injuries. Whatever happened to sticking to actual facts like wins and losses and boxscore production? I guess fans realize those aren't on Kobe's side right now(due to cupcake schedule and LeBron's statistical dominance), so "stories media likes" is all they have left.

I don't think anyone even brought it up until you wanted to underscore how insignificant it was. Do I have to hit you with the Billy Madison thing again? Because outside of the injuries, Kobe has a pretty damn compelling argument that has been put together in this very thread. Matter of fact...it's all up in your face right this very second.

Huh? I made perfectly legitimate points that are based in FACTS.

You really didn't sir, you attempted to spin facts in a way more conducive to your arguments, which might have worked with an 8 year old...or a girl. But I'm neither one of those two things.

Fact 1) LA has played the softest schedule in the league thus far 2) Kobe's cast is superior to Kobe's.

Translation - LeBron's the MVP as of right now.

Stop arguing the schedule thing...it's (Please Use More Appropriate Word), and doesn't even work for you since the Lakers will play a much tougher schedule at the end of 82 games.

I will throw you a bone....because I'm still mad at Kobe for the Christmas game. My current standings where 100 equals MVP are....

Lebron 100
Kobe 99
Melo 75
Dirk 75

Doesn't change the fact that if Kobe stays the course and finishes with the leagues best record, he will be the MVP.

[INKtastic]

Can anyone give me factual evidence as to why Kobe shouldn't be MVP right now that actually has to do with Kobe? It seems everyone on the Lebron side gives great evidence as to why Lebron should be MVP and there is a solid argument...but when it comes to Kobe the arguments have little to do with Kobe and more about good his teammates are playing, how Lebron is better, Jordan was more clutch etc...does Kobe not have numbers of an MVP? Does Kobe not have the best record in the league? The Answers are yes.

you can't do it like that. If LeBron wasn't in the league, Kobe would likely be MVP. The problem is there's only 1 MVP, any discussion of if Kobe is MVP or not has to involve direct comparison to LeBron.

[INKtastic]

The problem with your argument is that they are NOT MASSIVE. Also....look at the PER standings. Seriously...take a look. What you will notice is that of the top 20 PER leaders in the league....FOUR OF THEM are guards. Those players are Kobe, CP3, Nash, and Wade.

What list are you looking at?

I see 3 SGs in the top 20 - Wade, Martin, Kobe.
I also see 3 SFs in the top 20 - LeBron, Anthony, Durant.

I also see LeBron has the top PER in the league, while Kobe is 3rd among SGs.

Stop arguing the schedule thing...it's (Please Use More Appropriate Word), and doesn't even work for you since the Lakers will play a much tougher schedule at the end of 82 games.

if you don't want to hear the schedule thing now, be sure to not use it later when Cleveland had the better record. While there are some individual tough games left, the hardest part of the cavs schedule ends Wednesday night.

[JimMurray]

What list are you looking at?

I see 3 SGs in the top 20 - Wade, Martin, Kobe.
I also see 3 SFs in the top 20 - LeBron, Anthony, Durant.

I also see LeBron has the top PER in the league, while Kobe is 3rd among SGs.

Take Martin out....he's only played 5 games...and by your own admission, Lebron, Anthony and Durant are not Guards. So what am I missing?

[JimMurray]

Uh Oh! Looks like the big secret regarding PER is OUT and Lebron fans are about to lose their s***! PER favors Forwards and Centers. Whoops! I

[INKtastic]

What list are you looking at?

I see 3 SGs in the top 20 - Wade, Martin, Kobe.
I also see 3 SFs in the top 20 - LeBron, Anthony, Durant.

I also see LeBron has the top PER in the league, while Kobe is 3rd among SGs.

Take Martin out....he's only played 5 games...and by your own admission, Lebron, Anthony and Durant are not Guards. So what am I missing?

fine, take martin out because of the small sample size. 3 SFs vs 2 SGs int the top 20, not much of a difference, and it's pretty arbitrary where you cut things off.

Cut it off at top 10 and you get
2 PGs
2 SGs
2 SFs
2 PFs
2 Cs

couldnt' be any more evenly distributed.

Cut it off at top 5 and you get

1PG
1 SF
1 SG
1 PF
1 C

but no Kobe

Cut it off at top 50, toss the guys with small sample sizes, you get 9 PGs, 6 SGs, 6 SFs, just where is this skewing that you claim favors SFs over SGs?

[TheOUTLAW]

The more the season goes on, the more pointless I think this thread is. This race is seriously going to go back and forth all year. This thread will mean nothing until late March.

Pointless? Of Course?! But what else am I going to do at work?

You do know that the reason people are saying the Lakers have had an easy schedule is because 19 of their 29 games have been at home while the Cavs have only played 14 out of 32 games at home.

[JimMurray]

fine, take martin out because of the small sample size. 3 SFs vs 2 SGs int the top 20, not much of a difference, and it's pretty arbitrary where you cut things off.

Cut it off at top 10 and you get
2 PGs
2 SGs
2 SFs
2 PFs
2 Cs

So you get 4 guards out of 10? And that's your big point?

Cut it off at top 5 and you get

As a general principle, your supposed to add numbers to the sample to make your arguments more relevant...not subtract.

Cut it off at top 50, toss the guys with small sample sizes, you get 9 PGs, 6 SGs, 6 SFs, just where is this skewing that you claim favors SGs over SFs?

Wait...what?! Skewing? You might want to read over what you just wrote and re-think that sentence. That has fail all over it. I argued that PER favors Forwards and Centers over Guards, and cited that within the top 50 PER scores, only 15 of those belonged to guards. Where did I go wrong? You're panicking. Compose yourself......BREATHE.

Chop up the facts anyway you want...

4 out of 20
15 out of 50

Those are the numbers that matter. Sorry to ruin your day.

[JimMurray]

You do know that the reason people are saying the Lakers have had an easy schedule is because 19 of their 29 games have been at home while the Cavs have only played 14 out of 32 games at home.

You do understand that this means nothing at the end of the season right?

[YLSKillaCam]

What is PER and why do we care about it?

[JimMurray]

Go ahead...keep arguing this with me...I'm saving my haymaker for a special occasion.

[TheOUTLAW]

You do know that the reason people are saying the Lakers have had an easy schedule is because 19 of their 29 games have been at home while the Cavs have only played 14 out of 32 games at home.

You do understand that this means nothing at the end of the season right?

Yes, but that wasn't your point.