MVP Rankings 1.0

[INKtastic]

reasonable post by Ball Boy, but the difference between Odom and Andy is Odom can be trusted to run the offense and create for himself and others while you have to cringe if Andy decides to take more than one dribble. The counter to this is Odom tends to disappear for games for no apparent reason, while Andy is pretty consistent in what he brings from game to game.

Thank you. Im glad that you can admit that. The disparity between the 2 players supporting casts is minimal at best. Sure the Lakers have Gasol, but other than that no one really stands out on the Lakers when you really look into it. Bynum is good, but with Gasol in the lineup his impact probably isnt even what Shaq's is.. And Odom is very comparable to Varejao. Artest is a great role player, Ill give you that, but like I mentioned, other than those 4, no one on the Lakers even makes the Cleveland roster.

Odom is interesting. In the role of a coming off the bench, over the course of a season it's probably a wash between him and Andy. However, if we had Odom, he'd start for us. And with an injury to a starter, he's a better fill in starter than Andy. And as a bench player, he should be better than Andy, but oddly isn't. I'm not sure why.

Other than Kobe/LeBron, LA has more players (3 - Odom/Gasol/Artest) that would come and start here than cleveland has that would come and start there (1 Mo), but Cleveland has more players who would crack LA's rotation than LA has that would crack Cleveland's rotation.

[kaiiu2324]

I think Delonte could start for the Lakers.

[Dat Pass]

Odom is interesting. In the role of a coming off the bench, over the course of a season it's probably a wash between him and Andy. However, if we had Odom, he'd start for us. And with an injury to a starter, he's a better fill in starter than Andy. And as a bench player, he should be better than Andy, but oddly isn't. I'm not sure why.

Other than Kobe/LeBron, LA has more players (3 - Odom/Gasol/Artest) that would come and start here than cleveland has that would come and start there (1 Mo), but Cleveland has more players who would crack LA's rotation than LA has that would crack Cleveland's rotation.

Yea the disparity in support isnt much.

Odom/Varejao is basically a wash. Odom has more talent, but Varejao plays with twice the heart. And Odom disappears for weeks at a time.

Shaq/Big Z is better than Bynum/Mbenga.

Gasol is a great 2nd option. But as far as playing to the strengths of the star player, I think Mo is just as good a fit for LeBron as Gasol is for Kobe. I dont think the Cavs would be much better with Gasol than with Mo Williams. Mo gives LeBron exactly what he needs as a 2nd option.

Then you're left with Artest. Great role player.

Outside those 4, like Ive said, no one makes the Cavs team. Can you (HouMac) really tell me with a straight face that Kobe has "a much better cast" as you so readily claim?

[YLSKillaCam]

Kobe was ahead at the beginning of last week.

This past week he averaged 37.8/8.0rbs/6.0assist and 2.7 steals.


Damn, with the injuries he's had and people are saying he lost ground?? Talk about over-reaction.

[semi-sentient]

It's all about perception. The Christmas Day game was nationally televised and Kobe did not play well at all (and all the crying that he did was just embarrassing -- that's poor leadership). LeBron didn't really play that great either, but he kept his composure and his team won. It was a big win.

Kobe might be able to swing it back to his favor tonight if he can play well enough to lead them past the Suns minus Artest.

[INKtastic]

so when he wins, the stats don't matter, but when he loses to the reigning MVP, a 3 game sample of stats is supposed to be more important than the wins/losses? I also noticed you didn't list FG%.

[semi-sentient]

Not that it really matters, but here are their stats for the week:

LeBron: 29.7 PTS (.566 TS%), 8.3 REB, 8.3 AST, 1.7 STL, 3.3 TOV
Kome: 37.7 PTS (.563 TS%), 8.0 REB, 6.0 AST, 2.7 STL, 4.7 TOV

Both very impressive, but the Cavs went 3-0 while the Lakers went 2-1.

I have LeBron ahead slightly simply because I think the Cavs have had more big wins than the Lakers (and a tougher schedule), who haven't really had any outside of Atlanta earlier in the season. I'm dying to see the Lakers go on a tough road trip to see what kind of balls they have (I like balls).

Edit: At the end of the year I know it's really not going to matter who beat better quality opponents (last season is evidence of that), but I personally think it matters.

[JimMurray]

The Cavs fans in this thread are ridiculous. It is clear they have an agenda.

On the one hand, they spend weeks talking about how poor Cleveland's supporting cast is and how Lebron has to be superhuman for them to win.

On the other hand, they are content in hanging their hats on a game in which Cleveland's supporting cast clearly outplayed the Lakers supporting cast with Lebron playing mediocre.

The arguments for Lebron are not coherent at all. Cavs fans would have you believe that MVP is a statistical award to be given to the player who accumulates the highest PER over the course of 82 games as long as the player has a decent record.

These fans manipulate two decades of MVP voting trying to convince us that player efficiency rating has a positive correlation with MVP voting. The reality is that the historical precedent is clear. The most important factor in MVP voting is winning games.

Being (arguably) the best player in the game + having the number 1 seed will get you MVP every time unless the player has won a bunch of MVPs already and there's a particularly deserving long term veteran who has yet to receive the award. That contingency doesn't apply here.

The way the Cavs' fans try to rearrange what is a pretty systemic way of choosing MVP is disgusting. They try to suggest that Lebron would surely be MVP if he had Bryant's supporting cast. They ignore the fact that if Lebron had Kobe's supporting cast, he wouldn't average as many assists or average as many rebounds. In so arguing, they suggest that the Lakers would be just as good if not better with Lebron and the Cavs would be worse. The argument is speculative at best and relies on assumptions that cannot be proven.

Instead we say, look, let's look at historical precedent. If Kobe's Lakers win the league while playing in a much tougher conference then he should be the MVP. If Lebron gets the #1 overall seed, as he did last year, then he should be the MVP. Lebron fans should accept that resolution, after all, you keep arguing that you're only 3 games back in the loss column while the Lakers have played a "fluff" schedule. Surely, as the schedule balances out, the Cavs will overtake the Lakers for #1 overall?

But Cavs fans won't accept that compromise. They insist that if the Cavs finish within a "couple" (and who knows what a couple is?) games of the Lakers, Lebron should still be MVP. Cavs fans want to maximize the windfall that comes to Lebron. He'll get the benefit of an easier schedule overall with weaker competition in the Eastern Conference, but Cavs fans insist that this fact should not matter given Kobe's supporting cast.

The argument is laughable. First, Kobe has to essentially transform his team into championship caliber players. Then when they do transform into the sort of players capable of winning, he gets none of the credit. No, instead, detractors use this as a point to try to inhibit him from winning a MVP award. Kobe Bryant transformed Pau Gasol's career. We're talking on many days about Andrew Bynum being the best center in the West. Shannon Brown and Trevor Ariza have gotten rich off of playing next to Bryant. Smush Parker was able to play two seasons in this league, STARTING, because he was next to Kobe Bryant. Because his teammates consistently overperform when playing next to him seems to be a benefit in his favor, not against him. How in the world other people are not noticing this is one of the biggest disappointments in sports.

Second, it is clear, both statistically and empirically, that the Lakers would not be nearly as good a team without Kobe. In fact, given the conference disparities, the Cavs might be better off without Lebron than the Lakers would be without Kobe. Of course, this observation is ignored when it should be key in the analysis. Empirically, the Lakers would have lost two games if not for Bryant's last second heroics. They would have probably lost at least 3 others without his heroics in the clutch. I'm sure Lebron has been clutch as well this season, but Kobe's clutchness is the difference between #1 seed and not having homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs so far. That is incredibly valuable. Statistically, the Lakers score more when Kobe is on the court than the Cavs when Lebron is on the court. The Lakers are outscored by more when Kobe is off the Court than the Cavs when Lebron is off the court. Thus, the assertion often quoted here that "Lebron means more to his team than Kobe does to his" doesn't survive factual scrutiny. These are the assertions of men with an agenda who create fantasy to suit their own purposes.

Bryant has been better than Lebron defensively. This point seems uncontested with the exception of lebrononade.

Bryant has been just as good offensively. This is a point of contention among Cavs fans, but the facts speak for themselves. Kobe's shooting better than 48% as a shooting guard! Only Ronnie Brewer shoots better than Kobe at that position and Brewer only takes 9 shots a game. There are a number of other small forwards who shoot a better percentage than Lebron. Adjusting for position, Kobe shooting has been more impressive than Lebron's. The one area where shooting is equal in every sense of the world is FT%. Kobe is STILL a significantly better FT shooter than Lebron, 84% to 77.8%.

Bryant is top 3 in two major statistical categories.

Forget just shooting guards. Kobe is the second best guard rebounder in the league this season. Only Andre Iguodala averages more rebounds at the guard position than Kobe Bryant. Lebron, by contrast, is 22nd among forwards in rebounding with a significant number of small forwards outrebounding him. You can all verify this information at NBA.com.

Again, Kobe's rebounding is more impressive than Lebron's given the positional difference.

Then go look at Lebron's supposed advantage inside. Go to NBA.com hotspots. Examine how Kobe is virtually better inside at every area except right around the basket and from about 20 feet on the left side. Most of them aren't even close.

Then add to the fact that Kobe has been playing through pretty tough injuries and been producing at a "best in the game" level and has the Lakers in control of the best record in the league - I fail to see how he isn't the MVP.....

Kobe scores the most points at his position.
He's the second best shooter FG% wise at his position.
He's the second best guard rebounder in the league.
He's 3rd overall in steals per game.
He's playing 1st team defense
He's playing injured
His Roland rating and +/- indicate his team would be significantly worse without him
He has his team with the best record in the league.

I fail to see how anyone comes close this season so far. Label me a troll or whatever...these are the facts. Take em or leave em.

Excellent post.

[JimMurray]

WHAT ABOUT PER?

I kind of wish things would go back to the way they were last season. LeBron was the MVP leader throughout, but they couldn't get it done against the upper echelon teams in the league. Now it looks like the Lakers can't get it done against the upper echelon teams while Kobe has lead the MVP race thus far.

I wonder if we're headed for something similar this season where Kobe wins the MVP but LeBron wins the title. That would suck.

That would royally suck.

[JimMurray]

First of all, you weren't even posting on RealGM last year (unless you are a formerly banned user).

Since when do you have to post on RealGM to support someone for MVP?

Second off, how can you speak for the entire Lakers fanbase? I have found no fanbase is perfect and they all have a large amount of double standards they fall back on.

Those arguing in favor of Kobe this year have been pretty consistent all season long in saying that if Cleveland finishes ahead of LA, then Lebron wins the MVP. I even flip flopped after the Christmas game to say that Lebron has the slightest edge right now for MVP. YLS has been very consistent and one of the stronger posters supporting Kobe up to this point. His arguments are both coherent, and reasonable. I share his frustrations with some members of the Lebron fanbase.

All I'm saying is, you should be able to make your argument without resorting to attacking the other poster with something so hypocritical. Its almost as bad as opposing fans calling each other homers.

Truth.

[JimMurray]

LOL thats funny I don't even know what PER is! And the issue regarding supporting casts isn't about Cleveland's its more about the Lakers supporting cast being spoken about as some holy grail for much of the off-season! And I don't think anyone thinks the MVP is statistical, we know whomever wins the most games is the almost certain MVP (see Kobe winning over Paul)!

WOW! This is your most logical post ever! I'm proud of you LeBronade....I truly am.

[JimMurray]

Don't lump all cavs fans together. I've never said we have a poor supporting cast. I have said that Gasol is clearly is better than the 2nd best player on the cavs - which I don't think too many people would disagree with. Cleveland quite clearly has more depth - Boobie is leading the league in 3 point shooting and finds himself suddenly unable to crack the 9 man rotation. And we have a highly motivated Powe waiting in the wings too as he recovers from ACL surgery.

I've pretty consistently said we had a few issues this year

- working 4 new players into the rotation brings a few extra losses early in the season. Compounding this was various players missing games early. We played lots of minutes with lots of lineups who hadn't played together before.
- The Delonte situation also hurt the team early. He's one of our more important players, and for a while we didn't know if he'd be around from one day to the next. He seems to be stabilizing, which gives us a nice boost.
- the home vs away disparity in schedules highly favors he lakers early. LA has played the most home games, Cleveland has played the most away games.

Despite all of that, we're just 1 1/2 games behind LA and just 1/2 a game behind boston just as the team is starting to gel a bit. It's just a matter of time now before we're on top. On top in the standings, on top in the power rankings.

I love your optimsm LJ...I really do. I don't want to be the one to crush your dreams...so I'll let you get away with this for awhile.

[Father Time]

According to Hollinger's power rankings, Cleveland's SOS is actually BELOW LA's.

Lakers SOS: .493

Cleveland's SOS: .483


So for all of this talk of the Laker's unbelievable super-duper easy schedule, it's SOS is still higher than Cleveland's.

[JimMurray]

The more the season goes on, the more pointless I think this thread is. This race is seriously going to go back and forth all year. This thread will mean nothing until late March.

Pointless? Of Course?! But what else am I going to do at work?

[JimMurray]

Ok, let's look at those supporting casts.

+/-? Kobe doesn't have the highest ON court nor OFF court +/- on his team. In fact he has only fourth best ON court numbers and he is behind Ron Artest in OFF court numbers. LeBron is 2nd in ON court and the best in OFF court.

Roland rating? Kobe has two teammates with roland rating over +11 (12.6 and 11.9 - that's top10 in the league apart from anomalies of players who play very very little, no kidding!). LeBron's best teammate has +8.2. Kobe has other two teammates who have better roland rating than Cavs' third best. To top it all, LeBron has higher roland rating than Kobe.

If you don't understand how to interpret the stats you listed....then GTFO with all of that. Roland rating.....LOL....WTF?

[JimMurray]

anyone know what site has adjusted +/- numbers?

Basketball-reference.com?

[JimMurray]

The huge gap in efficiency continues to get glossed over. And admit it, when you watched the game christmas, LeBron wasn't anywhere near as ball dominant as you thought he is. He plays a ton off of the ball this year. Yet he maintains the high level of efficiency.

Thats because it's not really relevant when comparing two different positions. A three or four SHOULD be more efficient than a two on sheer basketball principle. Also....PER does not mean relative efficiency. Higher PER does not pre-suppose better player...we've been over this.

And yes...I agree that Lebron is not as ball dominate anymore.

[INKtastic]

According to Hollinger's power rankings, Cleveland's SOS is actually BELOW LA's.

Lakers SOS: .493

Cleveland's SOS: .483


So for all of this talk of the Laker's unbelievable super-duper easy schedule, it's SOS is still higher than Cleveland's.

hollinger separates home vs away from SOS, Saragin combines them. He ranks the lakers schedule as 29th toughest (only boston has played an easier schedule) and ranks clevaland at 17th.

[Father Time]

A 6'6" 200 pound guard is expected to compare to a 6'8" 270 pound beast in terms of FG %? Still, 48% to 50% isn't huge.

[Father Time]

According to Hollinger's power rankings, Cleveland's SOS is actually BELOW LA's.

Lakers SOS: .493

Cleveland's SOS: .483


So for all of this talk of the Laker's unbelievable super-duper easy schedule, it's SOS is still higher than Cleveland's.

hollinger separates home vs away from SOS, Saragin combines them. He ranks the lakers schedule as 29th toughest (only boston has played an easier schedule) and ranks clevaland at 17th.

Oh, okay. I didn't know that.

But do people think the Lakers should be better than 24-5, with Gasol missing the first 11 games?