DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset)

[Kurtz]

Pretty crazy how the Cavs manage to have the best DRTG in the league by over a point over 2nd place despite Mobley and Allen by the implication of your statement not belonging near those #2 and #3 spots and having "notoriously porous defenders" around them. Guess it's just by accident opponents can't seem to score against them.

That's not at all what I'm implying. I've said before that Allen is a legit DPOY guy (just lacks games played) and Mobley will get there too someday. It's just clear that there is data contamination when you have two teammates this high and closely bunched (this was the case last year too). I think you know that Mobley's defensive metrics plummet when Allen is not playing.

It's because Mobley has been basically historically unlucky with opponent 3P shooting variance when he's on the court versus off the court. Opponent 3P shooting statistically doesn't stabilize until like 160 games in or something like that. So in 30 games, it can really affect on-off numbers especially given the high volume of 3P attempts nowadays.

Read on Twitter

Unless you think Love (opponents shoot 6% worse from three when he's on the floor) is just a monster 3P defender, despite largely camping out near the paint for rebounds and not even bothering to contest much these days, while Mobley literally leads the league in contested 3P shots per game:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/hustle?dir=D&sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_3PT

Mobley isn't just potential. He's already one of the absolute best defenders in the league. In the 7 games Allen missed, games where Mobley started at center, the Cavs allowed just 101.3 points per game. As you said yourself, the Cavs have a lot of defenders with poor defensive reputations. Mitchell, Garland, Love, LeVert, etc. So how are they clearly the best defense in the league - something they maintain even in games JA misses - unless Mobley is playing at an All-Defensive level as well?

I would buy the terrible luck explanation if we didn't observe the exact same Mobley-Allen defensive stat relationship last year. Both were near the top in impact in that same statistic, but Mobley's numbers plummeted during the time that Allen was out.

I'd add that that particular stat claims to not be affected by teammates - and yet the evidence states otherwise, that's part of why I used the word "weird".

[eyeatoma]

Picking apart how this poll just seems to be a popularity contest, and people say, oooh he locked down that dude.

OG - Leading the Poll

Drating - Not even on the graph https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-defensive-rating-leaders-this-season
111
D Winshares - 1.3 15th league
DPBM - 1.0 38th in the league

But, he locks down them superstarzzzzz....LOL, raps fans never change.

Lopez

Drating
8th in the NBA - 107
DWS - 9th in NBA - 1.5
DPBM - 19th 1.7

Pretty strong

Bam
Drating - 109.2 - 18th in the NBA
DWS - 1.5 - 6th in the NBA
DPBM - 0.5 - 62nd in the nBA

Definite question marks but can be good for sure

Jarrett Allen
Drating - 104.5 Tied for 1st
DWS - 1.7 - 2nd
DPBM - 22nd

Also very strong

Giannis everyone yearly DPOY candidate
Drating - 4th - 105.4
DWS - 3rd 1.6
DPBM - 2.4 4th

Still a god, best so far

Bridges
D rating - 113.3, not even in the top 25
DWS 1.2 24th
DPBM 0.3 73rd in the league

Lol overrated

AD
D Rating - 106.9 7th
DWS 1.5 7th
DPBM 2.1 11th
Very strong, shame he's hurt

Everyone's other favorite advanced stats god, and apparently now an elite defender
Jokic
Drating - 109.9 22nd in the league
DWS - 1.2 29th
DPBM 1st in the league with 3.9.

This just goes to show that defensive numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. Can't say he's elite just because he's leading in DPBM which prioritizes rebounding.

Jokic is a slightly above average defender. Much improved, but no where in the realm of a great or even good defender.

Meanwhile Embiid is not even on the poll.

Drating - 104.5 1st in the league
DWS - 1.4 11th
DPBM - 2.7 3rd

According to the advanced stats ya'll love to quote he would be 2nd or 3rd in the rankings.

This really just goes to show how much the GB just hates on Embiid, and refuses to give him his flowers. I get he wasn't good the 1st 2 weeks since then he has anchored the Sixers having the 2nd best defense. Really need to be on the poll. He is a top 3 defender in the league, and most definitely a DPOY candidate.

Here are my sources:

Drating
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-defensive-rating-leaders-this-season
DWS
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_advanced.html#advanced_stats::dws
DPBM
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_advanced.html#advanced_stats::dbpm

Man, you have this unhealthy persecution complex/Embiid obsession going on where any ounce of objectivity is out the window when it comes to the Raptors or Jokic. You gotta chill on that - watch some other teams play, enjoy the scenery. When it comes to understanding defensive impact there is no substitute to watching these guys play; publically available defensive metrics will always be massively flawed (too skewed by teammates/team play styles among other things), as you can see in the numbers you yourself have pasted.

Just to further clarify for you how these numbers are massively flawed - let's look at Drating where Embiid is #1. Let's look at some of the names of the rest of the leaders:

At #5 we have D'Anthony Melton. Fine bench piece, but not even his mother would claim that he's an elite defender. At #11 we have Toby Harris - a notoriously porous defender.

Let's look at the Bucks - Freak #4, Brook #8, Jrue #12. Cool, respectable. But wait, is that Bobby Portis at #10? Jevon Carter at #14??

Cleveland is even more egregious. Allen #2, Mobley #3. Weird, but ok. But wait, is that Donovan freaking Mitchell at #13? Darious Garland at #16? Levert at #20? 3 notoriously porous defenders suddenly evolved into the best in the league?

I won't even mention Luka being on the top defender's list, that one is next level crazy.

And don't get me started on DWS leaders. I encourage folks to read that one for a laugh. Mitchell ranked #7, Luka #9, Harris #10, Melton #11....and you have to scroll waaay down to find Jrue at #31, Caruso at #52, Smart #86, Draymond #100. Come on now.


Anyway, I hope you see the point. These types of stats are driven by the team style as much or moreso than the player and shouldn't be used for anything more than entertainment.

Melton is absolutely an elite defender. Might want to take your own advice and watch other teams sometime.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

[yoyoboy]

That's not at all what I'm implying. I've said before that Allen is a legit DPOY guy (just lacks games played) and Mobley will get there too someday. It's just clear that there is data contamination when you have two teammates this high and closely bunched (this was the case last year too). I think you know that Mobley's defensive metrics plummet when Allen is not playing.

It's because Mobley has been basically historically unlucky with opponent 3P shooting variance when he's on the court versus off the court. Opponent 3P shooting statistically doesn't stabilize until like 160 games in or something like that. So in 30 games, it can really affect on-off numbers especially given the high volume of 3P attempts nowadays.

Read on Twitter

Unless you think Love (opponents shoot 6% worse from three when he's on the floor) is just a monster 3P defender, despite largely camping out near the paint for rebounds and not even bothering to contest much these days, while Mobley literally leads the league in contested 3P shots per game:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/hustle?dir=D&sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_3PT

Mobley isn't just potential. He's already one of the absolute best defenders in the league. In the 7 games Allen missed, games where Mobley started at center, the Cavs allowed just 101.3 points per game. As you said yourself, the Cavs have a lot of defenders with poor defensive reputations. Mitchell, Garland, Love, LeVert, etc. So how are they clearly the best defense in the league - something they maintain even in games JA misses - unless Mobley is playing at an All-Defensive level as well?

I would buy the terrible luck explanation if we didn't observe the exact same Mobley-Allen defensive stat relationship last year. Both were near the top in impact in that same statistic, but Mobley's numbers plummeted during the time that Allen was out.

I'd add that that particular stat claims to not be affected by teammates - and yet the evidence states otherwise, that's part of why I used the word "weird".

2021-22:

Mobley ON, Allen OFF: 111.8 DRTG

Allen ON, Mobley OFF: 111.3 DRTG

Allen and Mobley ON: 106.5 DRTG


Last year, the Cavs with Allen on and Mobley off were barely better than the Cavs with Mobley on and Allen off defensively. And with both on the court, they were dominant. Of course in games where they had no Allen, the Cavs were worse defensively than they would be with Allen. Allen is an awesome defender so it would make no sense for them to keep up the same level of defense. And you had a rookie Mobley having to play out of position and trying to cover for a lot of terrible defenders. But without Mobley in, Allen also couldn’t hold the Cavs to the same level of defense so the criticism makes no sense. Both were huge contributors, and Mobley has only gotten better defensively this year.

[Kurtz]

Picking apart how this poll just seems to be a popularity contest, and people say, oooh he locked down that dude.

OG - Leading the Poll

Drating - Not even on the graph https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-defensive-rating-leaders-this-season
111
D Winshares - 1.3 15th league
DPBM - 1.0 38th in the league

But, he locks down them superstarzzzzz....LOL, raps fans never change.

Lopez

Drating
8th in the NBA - 107
DWS - 9th in NBA - 1.5
DPBM - 19th 1.7

Pretty strong

Bam
Drating - 109.2 - 18th in the NBA
DWS - 1.5 - 6th in the NBA
DPBM - 0.5 - 62nd in the nBA

Definite question marks but can be good for sure

Jarrett Allen
Drating - 104.5 Tied for 1st
DWS - 1.7 - 2nd
DPBM - 22nd

Also very strong

Giannis everyone yearly DPOY candidate
Drating - 4th - 105.4
DWS - 3rd 1.6
DPBM - 2.4 4th

Still a god, best so far

Bridges
D rating - 113.3, not even in the top 25
DWS 1.2 24th
DPBM 0.3 73rd in the league

Lol overrated

AD
D Rating - 106.9 7th
DWS 1.5 7th
DPBM 2.1 11th
Very strong, shame he's hurt

Everyone's other favorite advanced stats god, and apparently now an elite defender
Jokic
Drating - 109.9 22nd in the league
DWS - 1.2 29th
DPBM 1st in the league with 3.9.

This just goes to show that defensive numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. Can't say he's elite just because he's leading in DPBM which prioritizes rebounding.

Jokic is a slightly above average defender. Much improved, but no where in the realm of a great or even good defender.

Meanwhile Embiid is not even on the poll.

Drating - 104.5 1st in the league
DWS - 1.4 11th
DPBM - 2.7 3rd

According to the advanced stats ya'll love to quote he would be 2nd or 3rd in the rankings.

This really just goes to show how much the GB just hates on Embiid, and refuses to give him his flowers. I get he wasn't good the 1st 2 weeks since then he has anchored the Sixers having the 2nd best defense. Really need to be on the poll. He is a top 3 defender in the league, and most definitely a DPOY candidate.

Here are my sources:

Drating
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-defensive-rating-leaders-this-season
DWS
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_advanced.html#advanced_stats::dws
DPBM
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_advanced.html#advanced_stats::dbpm

Man, you have this unhealthy persecution complex/Embiid obsession going on where any ounce of objectivity is out the window when it comes to the Raptors or Jokic. You gotta chill on that - watch some other teams play, enjoy the scenery. When it comes to understanding defensive impact there is no substitute to watching these guys play; publically available defensive metrics will always be massively flawed (too skewed by teammates/team play styles among other things), as you can see in the numbers you yourself have pasted.

Just to further clarify for you how these numbers are massively flawed - let's look at Drating where Embiid is #1. Let's look at some of the names of the rest of the leaders:

At #5 we have D'Anthony Melton. Fine bench piece, but not even his mother would claim that he's an elite defender. At #11 we have Toby Harris - a notoriously porous defender.

Let's look at the Bucks - Freak #4, Brook #8, Jrue #12. Cool, respectable. But wait, is that Bobby Portis at #10? Jevon Carter at #14??

Cleveland is even more egregious. Allen #2, Mobley #3. Weird, but ok. But wait, is that Donovan freaking Mitchell at #13? Darious Garland at #16? Levert at #20? 3 notoriously porous defenders suddenly evolved into the best in the league?

I won't even mention Luka being on the top defender's list, that one is next level crazy.

And don't get me started on DWS leaders. I encourage folks to read that one for a laugh. Mitchell ranked #7, Luka #9, Harris #10, Melton #11....and you have to scroll waaay down to find Jrue at #31, Caruso at #52, Smart #86, Draymond #100. Come on now.


Anyway, I hope you see the point. These types of stats are driven by the team style as much or moreso than the player and shouldn't be used for anything more than entertainment.

Melton is absolutely an elite defender. Might want to take your own advice and watch other teams sometime.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

In that case, my apologies to mrs. Melton, I will make it a point to concentrate on De'Anthony Melton's game going forward. I'm glad that that is your only quarrel with my rather lengthy post.

[Kurtz]

It's because Mobley has been basically historically unlucky with opponent 3P shooting variance when he's on the court versus off the court. Opponent 3P shooting statistically doesn't stabilize until like 160 games in or something like that. So in 30 games, it can really affect on-off numbers especially given the high volume of 3P attempts nowadays.

Read on Twitter

Unless you think Love (opponents shoot 6% worse from three when he's on the floor) is just a monster 3P defender, despite largely camping out near the paint for rebounds and not even bothering to contest much these days, while Mobley literally leads the league in contested 3P shots per game:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/hustle?dir=D&sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_3PT

Mobley isn't just potential. He's already one of the absolute best defenders in the league. In the 7 games Allen missed, games where Mobley started at center, the Cavs allowed just 101.3 points per game. As you said yourself, the Cavs have a lot of defenders with poor defensive reputations. Mitchell, Garland, Love, LeVert, etc. So how are they clearly the best defense in the league - something they maintain even in games JA misses - unless Mobley is playing at an All-Defensive level as well?

I would buy the terrible luck explanation if we didn't observe the exact same Mobley-Allen defensive stat relationship last year. Both were near the top in impact in that same statistic, but Mobley's numbers plummeted during the time that Allen was out.

I'd add that that particular stat claims to not be affected by teammates - and yet the evidence states otherwise, that's part of why I used the word "weird".

2021-22:

Mobley ON, Allen OFF: 111.8 DRTG

Allen ON, Mobley OFF: 111.3 DRTG

Allen and Mobley ON: 106.5 DRTG


Last year, the Cavs with Allen on and Mobley off were barely better than the Cavs with Mobley on and Allen off defensively. And with both on the court, they were dominant. Of course in games where they had no Allen, the Cavs were worse defensively than they would be with Allen. Allen is an awesome defender so it would make no sense for them to keep up the same level of defense. And you had a rookie Mobley having to play out of position and trying to cover for a lot of terrible defenders. But without Mobley in, Allen also couldn’t hold the Cavs to the same level of defense so the criticism makes no sense. Both were huge contributors, and Mobley has only gotten better defensively this year.

Check out Mobley's drtg before and after Allen went down last year (early March).

[yoyoboy]

I would buy the terrible luck explanation if we didn't observe the exact same Mobley-Allen defensive stat relationship last year. Both were near the top in impact in that same statistic, but Mobley's numbers plummeted during the time that Allen was out.

I'd add that that particular stat claims to not be affected by teammates - and yet the evidence states otherwise, that's part of why I used the word "weird".

2021-22:

Mobley ON, Allen OFF: 111.8 DRTG

Allen ON, Mobley OFF: 111.3 DRTG

Allen and Mobley ON: 106.5 DRTG


Last year, the Cavs with Allen on and Mobley off were barely better than the Cavs with Mobley on and Allen off defensively. And with both on the court, they were dominant. Of course in games where they had no Allen, the Cavs were worse defensively than they would be with Allen. Allen is an awesome defender so it would make no sense for them to keep up the same level of defense. And you had a rookie Mobley having to play out of position and trying to cover for a lot of terrible defenders. But without Mobley in, Allen also couldn’t hold the Cavs to the same level of defense so the criticism makes no sense. Both were huge contributors, and Mobley has only gotten better defensively this year.

Check out Mobley's drtg before and after Allen went down last year (early March).

Got it. You’re just going to completely dismiss every piece of statistical evidence I’ve given you during this convo and concentrate only on one smaller stretch during last year (where the Cavs had plenty of other injuries and the team’s defense was already falling apart prior to JA going down) instead of the overwhelming sample size of the whole season with Mobley on and Allen off. Or the Allen on and Mobley off minutes. Or the games this year where Allen missed and the Cavs posted a crazy good DRTG during that time. Not wasting my breath then.

[eyeatoma]

I would buy the terrible luck explanation if we didn't observe the exact same Mobley-Allen defensive stat relationship last year. Both were near the top in impact in that same statistic, but Mobley's numbers plummeted during the time that Allen was out.

I'd add that that particular stat claims to not be affected by teammates - and yet the evidence states otherwise, that's part of why I used the word "weird".

2021-22:

Mobley ON, Allen OFF: 111.8 DRTG

Allen ON, Mobley OFF: 111.3 DRTG

Allen and Mobley ON: 106.5 DRTG


Last year, the Cavs with Allen on and Mobley off were barely better than the Cavs with Mobley on and Allen off defensively. And with both on the court, they were dominant. Of course in games where they had no Allen, the Cavs were worse defensively than they would be with Allen. Allen is an awesome defender so it would make no sense for them to keep up the same level of defense. And you had a rookie Mobley having to play out of position and trying to cover for a lot of terrible defenders. But without Mobley in, Allen also couldn’t hold the Cavs to the same level of defense so the criticism makes no sense. Both were huge contributors, and Mobley has only gotten better defensively this year.

Check out Mobley's drtg before and after Allen went down last year (early March).

You don't have to convince me man. I'm not a propenent of advanced stats. I made that post for all y'all. Yes there are some definite inconsistencies here but when you see all those elite defenders, most of which are ranked high on those three stats, the positive trend indicates there's obviously something to it.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

[Kurtz]

2021-22:

Mobley ON, Allen OFF: 111.8 DRTG

Allen ON, Mobley OFF: 111.3 DRTG

Allen and Mobley ON: 106.5 DRTG


Last year, the Cavs with Allen on and Mobley off were barely better than the Cavs with Mobley on and Allen off defensively. And with both on the court, they were dominant. Of course in games where they had no Allen, the Cavs were worse defensively than they would be with Allen. Allen is an awesome defender so it would make no sense for them to keep up the same level of defense. And you had a rookie Mobley having to play out of position and trying to cover for a lot of terrible defenders. But without Mobley in, Allen also couldn’t hold the Cavs to the same level of defense so the criticism makes no sense. Both were huge contributors, and Mobley has only gotten better defensively this year.

Check out Mobley's drtg before and after Allen went down last year (early March).

Got it. You’re just going to completely dismiss every piece of statistical evidence I’ve given you during this convo and concentrate only on one smaller stretch during last year (where the Cavs had plenty of other injuries and the team’s defense was already falling apart prior to JA going down) instead of the overwhelming sample size of the whole season with Mobley on and Allen off. Or the Allen on and Mobley off minutes. Or the games this year where Allen missed and the Cavs posted a crazy good DRTG during that time. Not wasting my breath then.

That wasn't a smaller stretch - it was 17 games during which his defensive rating dropped from ~105 (games with Allen) to 115 (without Allen). That's a monumental drop where he went from one of the best in the league to one of the worst statistically. Too big of a drop to consider a coincidence. And frankly the stats you've shown display a similar result: Mobley 112 Drtg without Allen and 107 with him over the course of the year - that's the difference between an elite defensive C and a mediocre one. 112 would put him on par with guys like Valanciunas and Towns - hardly defensive stalwarts.

Look, at the end of the day if you honestly think that present day Mobley is in the conversation for being the 3rd best defender in the league, then there isn't much more I can do to sway you from that position.

[yoyoboy]

Check out Mobley's drtg before and after Allen went down last year (early March).

Got it. You’re just going to completely dismiss every piece of statistical evidence I’ve given you during this convo and concentrate only on one smaller stretch during last year (where the Cavs had plenty of other injuries and the team’s defense was already falling apart prior to JA going down) instead of the overwhelming sample size of the whole season with Mobley on and Allen off. Or the Allen on and Mobley off minutes. Or the games this year where Allen missed and the Cavs posted a crazy good DRTG during that time. Not wasting my breath then.

That wasn't a smaller stretch - it was 17 games during which his defensive rating dropped from ~105 (games with Allen) to 115 (without Allen). That's a monumental drop where he went from one of the best in the league to one of the worst statistically. Too big of a drop to consider a coincidence. And frankly the stats you've shown display a similar result: Mobley 112 Drtg without Allen and 107 with him over the course of the year - that's the difference between an elite defensive C and a mediocre one. 112 would put him on par with guys like Valanciunas and Towns - hardly defensive stalwarts.

Look, at the end of the day if you honestly think that present day Mobley is in the conversation for being the 3rd best defender in the league, then there isn't much more I can do to sway you from that position.

Are you going to just keep pretending like I didn’t share stats of Allen without Mobley too? They’re right there displaying the same drop off. But it wouldn’t be convenient for your argument. And you’re picking 17 games, in which Mobley actually missed 5 of those games as well, Rubio (top 5 in Defensive RAPM last year) missed all of them, Lauri missed 3, and Wade missed 15…oh, and like I said the Cavs DRTG statistically was already falling prior to Allen going down…instead of doing the sensible thing and looking at the whole 82 game sample size of data with Allen and Mobley each on versus off the court. Where it becomes apparent they were both necessary for the Cavs’ defensive success because Allen couldn’t hold it up by himself either.

Again the Cavs have the #1 defense in the league and it’s not that close. You already admitted that the Cavs have all these terrible defenders on the roster. And Allen has missed 7 games. If you think Mobley isn’t heavily contributing to that then you’re frankly delusional. It’s this weird theme though that’s been going on since last year during the ROY race where Raps fans will swear that Jarrett Allen is the only reason the Cavs have such a good defense in order to downplay Mobley’s contributions. Never mind the fact that the Cavs had an absolutely awful defense in 2021 with JA and only turned it around once Mobley also came into the picture to help him out.

[Kurtz]

Got it. You’re just going to completely dismiss every piece of statistical evidence I’ve given you during this convo and concentrate only on one smaller stretch during last year (where the Cavs had plenty of other injuries and the team’s defense was already falling apart prior to JA going down) instead of the overwhelming sample size of the whole season with Mobley on and Allen off. Or the Allen on and Mobley off minutes. Or the games this year where Allen missed and the Cavs posted a crazy good DRTG during that time. Not wasting my breath then.

That wasn't a smaller stretch - it was 17 games during which his defensive rating dropped from ~105 (games with Allen) to 115 (without Allen). That's a monumental drop where he went from one of the best in the league to one of the worst statistically. Too big of a drop to consider a coincidence. And frankly the stats you've shown display a similar result: Mobley 112 Drtg without Allen and 107 with him over the course of the year - that's the difference between an elite defensive C and a mediocre one. 112 would put him on par with guys like Valanciunas and Towns - hardly defensive stalwarts.

Look, at the end of the day if you honestly think that present day Mobley is in the conversation for being the 3rd best defender in the league, then there isn't much more I can do to sway you from that position.

Are you going to just keep pretending like I didn’t share stats of Allen without Mobley too? They’re right there displaying the same drop off. But it wouldn’t be convenient for your argument would it?

I didn't mention the Allen stats because we're discussing Mobley. But yes, the Allen stat you presented also shows that he becomes a mediocre defender without Mobley, which I guess is pretty inconvenient in my contention that Allen is a legit DPOY candidate. Perhaps I overrate him.

[yoyoboy]

I didn't mention the Allen stats because we're discussing Mobley. But yes, the Allen stat you presented also shows that he becomes a mediocre defender without Mobley, which I guess is pretty inconvenient in my contention that Allen is a legit DPOY candidate. Perhaps I overrate him.

So your criteria is a DPOY candidate should be able to experience absolutely no drop off in team defense no matter who is going in or out of the lineup? If that’s the case then nobody can be DPOY. Nobody is doing it alone.

I guess I just don’t see how you can rationalize:

Mobley (overrated okay defender)
Allen (not DPOY level now)
Garland (bad defender)
Mitchell (bad defender)
LeVert (bad defender)
Love (bad defender)

Yields the clear #1 defense. How does that happen? Is Cedi Osman secretly a Kawhi level defender, despite routinely ranking near the bottom of the league in advanced defensive metrics? Dean Wade is a solid defender but has missed the half the season and we’ve still kept things up. Okoro is decent but not that great.

[Kurtz]

I didn't mention the Allen stats because we're discussing Mobley. But yes, the Allen stat you presented also shows that he becomes a mediocre defender without Mobley, which I guess is pretty inconvenient in my contention that Allen is a legit DPOY candidate. Perhaps I overrate him.

So your criteria is a DPOY candidate should be able to experience absolutely no drop off in team defense no matter who is going in or out of the lineup? If that’s the case then nobody can be DPOY. Nobody is doing it alone.

I guess I just don’t see how you can rationalize:

Mobley (overrated okay defender)
Allen (not DPOY level now)
Garland (bad defender)
Mitchell (bad defender)
LeVert (bad defender)
Love (bad defender)

Yields the clear #1 defense. How does that happen? Is Cedi Osman secretly a Kawhi level defender, despite routinely ranking near the bottom of the league in advanced defensive metrics? Dean Wade is a solid defender but has missed the half the season and we’ve still kept things up. Okoro is decent but not that great.

I feel like you're not really paying attention to the things that I'm saying and instead kind of just imagining what I'm saying and over-reacting and then building a narrative against a strawman. I'll restate my points clearly again:

Allen is DPOY level player. Mobley is a good defender but not DPOY level player yet. When they're together, they're excellent defensively and make up for the deficiencies of the other defenders on the floor. Part of the reason Cleveland is allowing the least ppg is owing to those two, and part due to their playstyle - Cleveland plays at the slowest pace in the league. This is also why they're one of the lower scoring teams in the East despite having some excellent scorers on the roster.

For the record, I made 3 Cleveland-related bets prior to the season. They were:

1. Cleveland to get over 46.5 wins (-110).

2. Allen to win DPOY (+3600).

3. Cleveland to win their division (+450).

So I'm not bashing your team, and in fact want them to do well. I just find the argument that Mobley is currently a top 3-5 defender in the league vastly premature and unreasonable.

[Zenzibar]

If your best player just got locked down against the Knicks, look no further than Quentin Grimes.

is the picture of him fouling supposed to be ironic?

Organizational basketball much?
FYI, in a defensive tact taught by coaches on all levels, is to use your nearest and hidden arm to slow down the opponents drive.

[lobosloboslobos]

OakleyDokely wrote:

Defensive Rating in the 4 games without OG: 30th
Defensive Rating since his return: 10th


Defensive Rating with OG this season: 10th
Defensive Rating without OG this season: 30th

[Kurtz]

OG completely swallowed up Mitchell tonight. Donovan's two lowest scoring games of the season came against OG.

[Decipher]

Simmons hasn't done nearly enough

Claxton has been very good & KD is ridiculously underrated

[Dacost]

So how many games does Jaren Jackson need to be DPOY he is clearly top 3 when it comes to play and impact.

[C64]

So how many games does Jaren Jackson need to be DPOY he is clearly top 3 when it comes to play and impact.

Nah, everyone's still rolling on his 1st and 2nd year foul machine self. No one judges him here as of now, except for the 3 Grizz fans that are on here.

[LoveMyRaps]

Has Brooks defense tailed off as of late? Is he still the front runner or has OG overtaken him?

[cupcakesnake]

Has Brooks defense tailed off as of late? Is he still the front runner or has OG overtaken him?

I think the Raps need to improve the team defense for OG's case to have real traction. It's not how I vote/evaluate, but it's a reality for this award. They've climbed back out of the gutter, but I think they need to be top 10 or better for him to have any chance of being a frontrunner.

I'm the most vocal guy there is about the quality of OG's defense, but I think it's important to remember this and not get carried away.