Current Jokic or Prime Steph Curry? Who was the more impactful player?

[dhsilv2]

I mean, sure, Draymond provides a defensive dimension that Denver doesn't have. But on the whole, would you rather have Wiggins or playoff Jamal Murray as your second option on offense. I think it's ludicrous to say that Steph's supporting cast in 2022 was superior to Jokic's 2023 supporting cast.

Wiggins wasn't really his second option, though. It was more Klay (when he was healthy) and Good Poole, especially in the playoffs.

I think it's not ludicrous to suggest that the supporting casts are on a similar level, as long as you don't oddly fixate only on offense. Golden State was the best defense in the league in 2022. That didn't happen because of Steph. That happened because of the remainder of the roster. That's a reflection of his supporting cast.

Yes, but the poster I originally responded to said that "Curry has played with way, way more talent than Jokić", which may be true for the 2 KD rings, but is absolutely not true for 2022, and was only true in 2014-2016 because building the system around Steph allowed Klay and Draymond to break out and flourish in a way that would've been unlikely to work in a different context.

IN 2022 the warriors are the number 1 defense in the NBA. Jokic has never had that kind of talent around him.

Poole was coming off the bench for the Warriors that year. Adding 17 points per game and near 4 assists. From the bench! He had Gary Payton II off teh bench playing lock down defense. Even Porter Jr is a huge upgrade over Jokic's bench guys. That's before we get into that the warriors had the better starters too.

[WarriorGM]

Wiggins wasn't really his second option, though. It was more Klay (when he was healthy) and Good Poole, especially in the playoffs.

I think it's not ludicrous to suggest that the supporting casts are on a similar level, as long as you don't oddly fixate only on offense. Golden State was the best defense in the league in 2022. That didn't happen because of Steph. That happened because of the remainder of the roster. That's a reflection of his supporting cast.

Yes, but the poster I originally responded to said that "Curry has played with way, way more talent than Jokić", which may be true for the 2 KD rings, but is absolutely not true for 2022, and was only true in 2014-2016 because building the system around Steph allowed Klay and Draymond to break out and flourish in a way that would've been unlikely to work in a different context.

IN 2022 the warriors are the number 1 defense in the NBA. Jokic has never had that kind of talent around him.

Poole was coming off the bench for the Warriors that year. Adding 17 points per game and near 4 assists. From the bench! He had Gary Payton II off teh bench playing lock down defense. Even Porter Jr is a huge upgrade over Jokic's bench guys. That's before we get into that the warriors had the better starters too.

But the Warriors two years prior mainly without Steph had the 26th ranked defense and the worst record in the league. Poole? Payton II? What were they doing without Steph aside from looking like possibly the worst player in the league or playing in the G-League?

The GM of the Timberwolves who quickly turned them into the team with the best defense in the league was the same GM who didn't or couldn't when he was with Denver.

The available evidence suggests Curry is easier to build a strong defense around that doesn't suffer as much on the offensive end. The Warriors offense wasn't stymied by the Celtics the way the Nuggets' was against the Timberwolves despite playing with more defensively oriented players in comparison to players like Murray and MPJ.

[dhsilv2]

Yes, but the poster I originally responded to said that "Curry has played with way, way more talent than Jokić", which may be true for the 2 KD rings, but is absolutely not true for 2022, and was only true in 2014-2016 because building the system around Steph allowed Klay and Draymond to break out and flourish in a way that would've been unlikely to work in a different context.

IN 2022 the warriors are the number 1 defense in the NBA. Jokic has never had that kind of talent around him.

Poole was coming off the bench for the Warriors that year. Adding 17 points per game and near 4 assists. From the bench! He had Gary Payton II off teh bench playing lock down defense. Even Porter Jr is a huge upgrade over Jokic's bench guys. That's before we get into that the warriors had the better starters too.

But the Warriors two years prior mainly without Steph had the 26th ranked defense and the worst record in the league. Poole? Payton II? What were they doing without Steph aside from looking like possibly the worst player in the league or playing in the G-League?

The GM of the Timberwolves who quickly turned them into the team with the best defense in the league was the same GM who didn't or couldn't when he was with Denver.

The available evidence suggests Curry is easier to build a strong defense around that doesn't suffer as much on the offensive end. The Warriors offense wasn't stymied by the Celtics the way the Nuggets' was against the Timberwolves despite playing with more defensively oriented players in comparison to players like Murray and MPJ.

You're seemingly trying to change the topic.

Who had a better roster and who gets more out of players.

The gap in the rosters here is HUGE! The 2024 Nuggets have a terrible bench...like historically terrible. The 2022 Warriors had a nice bench, guys who fill roles and aren't great but they do things....and Poole who either was a great players and fell off or who knows. Either way we don't ask bench guys to be much more than guys who can fill in for various reasons. The Nuggets didn't have anyone who could fill anything. And remember we are focused on what the bench did when Steph wasn't playing, not when he was!

Now can Curry be a non factor on defense while a better defense can be built around him? Oh hell yeah...a guy like Jokic is taking up a role where defense matters more. So his lacking areas are more problematic. But that's unrelated to what I was discussing. You're trying too hard to fight for you boy...who I'd hope you've seen I"m a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEE fan of. Vs listening to my view where I'm a biased fan boy of both players. I'm not trying to prop one over the other. These are legit my two favorite players in the league!

[WarriorGM]

The question literally says current Jokic or prime Curry. It's not about stacking up achievements. It's about who was more impactful in their prime. Say Jokic from 2019-2024 or Curry from 2014-2019. I still have Curry a little higher on my all-time great list for career achievements at #8 vs. #11, but that's not the question being asked. It's about who was more impactful in their prime. And for that, I feel like it's Jokic by a large margin. I don't even think it's a question.

Let's look at their playoff games over that span by Game Score. If we consider 30+ to be great, 20-30 to be good, 10-20 to be average and 10 or below to be poor, here's their history:

Stephen Curry
11 great games (9.8%)
42 good games (37.5%)
35 average games (31.2%)
12 poor games (10.7%)
12 games missed due to injury (10.7%)

Nikola Jokic
20 great games (25%)
42 good games (52.5%)
16 average games (20%)
2 poor games (2.5%)
0 games missed due to injury (0%)

The consistency is on a different level. Steph was roughly 10x as likely to fail to show up in a big playoff game and a lot of the worst no-shows were in the most crucial games. Jokic's very, very few bad playoff games were all in early round series that he ended up winning.

Game score is basically a box score counting metric. Half of Steph's offense doesn't show up in the box score. You know where it shows up? The wins. That's why he does not have just winning seasons but record winning seasons. One can talk about Jokic's impact as much as one wants but without even a single 60-win season or victory in the playoffs against a 50-win team how are we supposed to take it seriously next to Steph's?

Consistency is overrated. Ever watch tennis? Have you ever noticed how the player who makes the most winners and unforced errors is usually the better player over the one who is merely consistent at returning the ball? Being able to dictate how the game is going to be played is more valuable and Steph does that by having the biggest weapon on the court. That's why he's gone up against the most consistent stars of the era and still mostly emerged victorious. Even when Curry has a supposedly poor game it is probably an indication he's forced the opponent to compromise. Game 5 2022 Finals Curry only scores 16 and has a gamescore of 10, is it an example in your favor? Anyone who watched the series though would know that it is the result of the Celtics abandoning Plan A—which was to force Curry to beat them because Curry showed in Game 4 he could do that—and instead adopting Plan B which was to make his teammates beat them. The result showed why it was Plan B but with Curry taking away Plan A the Celtics were already compromised.

Half of Jokić’s offense doesn’t show up in the box score. Because he’s a playmaking center who doesn’t dominate the ball, you can surround him with athletic shooters.

Curry has played with way, way more talent than Jokić and should have more titles than 4 tbh. Jokić with the caliber of teammates of peak Curry I don’t think would even lose games. He’s certainly not losing 3 games in a row to an inferior team in the Finals. I’ll tell you that much.

Steph isn’t as good as Joker, and that’s ok! He’s only 6’2” and just can’t have the same level of impact as a 7’, 300-lbs. titan. He’s a very good player who’s played with hall of famer after hall of famer and an FMVP-caliber sixth man. Jokić is a true all-timer who’s played with a guy whose greatest accolade is being Second Team All-Rookie.

A lot of made up largely baseless narratives in the above.

Jokic's passing assists do show up in the box score. Curry's movement and threat assists don't. There's a reason Curry being likely the greatest off-ball player ever is worth noting. Factor those in and you will realize that Curry is possibly the greatest playmaker ever in the game—greater than Jokic, greater than Magic.

Steph isn't as good as Jokic? Based on what? He's taller? People have been saying something along those lines ever since Curry started playing. Curry's made a mockery of that take throughout his career. Why are we supposed to take it seriously now?

Curry has played with Hall of Famer after Hall of Famer? Aside from KD did any of them appear headed to the Hall of Fame before playing with Curry? Curry led his team to its first championship with no one on the roster having seen the finals before. Even Jokic had KCP as a championship veteran teammate. It's funny how Curry's accomplishments are taken against him while those compared to him have their shortcomings taken as props. Here's a thought: maybe if Jokic could lead his team to more wins in the regular season he'd have some all-star teammates by now.

[web123888]

Let’s be honest, Jokic’s legacy took a massive hit with this WCSF T-Wolves loss and Game 7 2nd half collapse.

This is why Jordan is easily the GOAT. No major blemishes or chokes.

Jokic has one (2024), LeBron has one (2011), Curry has one (2016) and basically everyone else does too.

[LaLover11]

Sadly Curry

[tsherkin]

Let’s be honest, Jokic’s legacy took a massive hit with this WCSF T-Wolves loss and Game 7 2nd half collapse.

This is why Jordan is easily the GOAT. No major blemishes or chokes.

Jokic has one (2024), LeBron has one (2011), Curry has one (2016) and basically everyone else does too.

Jordan has blemishes, people just don't like to talk about them. Or the advantages he enjoyed which others did not receive. *shrug*

[Ito]

Easily curry a player that can just make a three at any time from any where I don’t think Jokic overall game can even match that

[art_tatum]

How does Jokic having the ball in his hands lead to him getting more rebounds?

I would say rebounding is the biggest difference between the two and Jokic has a substantial edge there.

He gets more assists. He gets more rebounds bc he's a huge center. Which is what he's supposed to do, that's his physical edge. Which shows up way more in stats like per etc.

Curry's an underrated rebounder tho, think he's always avged around 5

So you discount his assists because he has the ball a lot and then discount his rebounds because he’s tall. Anything else you want to discount from him?

I'm not discounting him, I'm saying those are the reasons his PER and other basic stats are so high, more than Lebron even.
But that it doesn't necessarily mean he is more impactful than curry or Lebron. They have different roles.

[playoffs]

IN 2022 the warriors are the number 1 defense in the NBA. Jokic has never had that kind of talent around him.

Poole was coming off the bench for the Warriors that year. Adding 17 points per game and near 4 assists. From the bench! He had Gary Payton II off teh bench playing lock down defense. Even Porter Jr is a huge upgrade over Jokic's bench guys. That's before we get into that the warriors had the better starters too.

But the Warriors two years prior mainly without Steph had the 26th ranked defense and the worst record in the league. Poole? Payton II? What were they doing without Steph aside from looking like possibly the worst player in the league or playing in the G-League?

The GM of the Timberwolves who quickly turned them into the team with the best defense in the league was the same GM who didn't or couldn't when he was with Denver.

The available evidence suggests Curry is easier to build a strong defense around that doesn't suffer as much on the offensive end. The Warriors offense wasn't stymied by the Celtics the way the Nuggets' was against the Timberwolves despite playing with more defensively oriented players in comparison to players like Murray and MPJ.

You're seemingly trying to change the topic.

Who had a better roster and who gets more out of players.

The gap in the rosters here is HUGE! The 2024 Nuggets have a terrible bench...like historically terrible. The 2022 Warriors had a nice bench, guys who fill roles and aren't great but they do things....and Poole who either was a great players and fell off or who knows. Either way we don't ask bench guys to be much more than guys who can fill in for various reasons. The Nuggets didn't have anyone who could fill anything. And remember we are focused on what the bench did when Steph wasn't playing, not when he was!

Now can Curry be a non factor on defense while a better defense can be built around him? Oh hell yeah...a guy like Jokic is taking up a role where defense matters more. So his lacking areas are more problematic. But that's unrelated to what I was discussing. You're trying too hard to fight for you boy...who I'd hope you've seen I"m a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEE fan of. Vs listening to my view where I'm a biased fan boy of both players. I'm not trying to prop one over the other. These are legit my two favorite players in the league!

Wait, I thought we were comparing 2022 GSW to 2023 Nuggets, which had a more than decent bench. What's the point of comparing a champion to a second round exit? That's apples to oranges.

[GusFring]

Curry won a ring with a washed klay, draymond was having a terrible series against the celtics and wiggins as his second option, he's almost getting underrated around here.

Curry had a fantastic playoffs in 2022. He really came through in the clutch throughout the entire playoffs in a way he hadn't previously and that ring is what finally cemented him as the GOAT PG for me. But let's not use revisionist history to act like the team around him sucked and had a **** playoffs.

Here are the top 8 minutes guys sorted by postseason BPM on that Warriors team plus the last 2 Nuggets teams:

21/22 Warriors
Stephen Curry 7.7
Gary Payton II 7.4
Kevon Looney 3.1
Jordan Poole 2.8
Otto Porter Jr. 2.7
Draymond Green 0.9
Andrew Wiggins 0.8
Klay Thompson 0.7

22/23 Nuggets
Nikola Jokic 12.8
Jamal Murray 4.8
Bruce Brown 1.1
Kentavious Caldwell Pope -0.1
Aaron Gordon -0.2
Michael Porter Jr. -0.3
Christian Braun -1.4
Jeff Green -3.8

23/24 Nuggets
Nikola Jokic 12.8
Aaron Gordon 4.5
Michael Porter Jr. 0.6
Jamal Murray -1.4
Kentavious Caldwell Pope -1.4
Christian Braun -2.2
Justin Holiday -3.9
Reggie Jackson -7.0

The Warriors might not have had an ideal team in 21/22, but they were deep and the role players mostly stepped up incredibly well in the playoffs. Curry only had to play 34.7 MPG and they maintained a positive point differential with him on the bench. It wasn't some carry job. In fact, going back to 2014/15, probably the only championship teams that were more balanced and less reliant on their top star in the playoffs were the other Warriors' championship teams.

Yeah Gary Payton was huge in the series, he was like much less talented of Iguodala for them that playoff run. Still though, plus minus aside, you put that version of looney, klay payton and green with another player not named curry or lebron, you're probably not winning a ring, just a guess.

[stepic]

Curry only won a finals MVP once Durant left

Joker every time

[Tor_Raps]

So this was the time where the Warriors begged KD to join them. Will Jokic get a prime KD to join him to add to his ring count? Lol

[CodeBreaker]

This is why Jordan is easily the GOAT. No major blemishes or chokes.

Jokic has one (2024), LeBron has one (2011), Curry has one (2016) and basically everyone else does too.

Is this really true tho? I'm trying to think of it

[Swindle]

It might be worth noting that Mr Gravity is 0-12 in the playoffs when it comes to potential go ahead baskets in the last 45 seconds of a game (0-8 in last 20 secs). Steph’s biggest strength is also his weakness. He didn’t need to shoot a 3 when down by 1 in the 2019 game 6 finals when there is 8.5 seconds still on the clock. 40% is an awesome average from 3 but it’s still a low percentage shot to be taking in that situation.

Jovic also has unique range for a center so he can pull the other team’s rim protector away from the basket, so it’s not like only Curry has a special ability

[GusFring]

This is why Jordan is easily the GOAT. No major blemishes or chokes.

Jokic has one (2024), LeBron has one (2011), Curry has one (2016) and basically everyone else does too.

Is this really true tho? I'm trying to think of it

2 3 peats kind of speaks for itself.

[WarriorGM]

It might be worth noting that Mr Gravity is 0-12 in the playoffs when it comes to potential go ahead baskets in the last 45 seconds of a game (0-8 in last 20 secs). Steph’s biggest strength is also his weakness. He didn’t need to shoot a 3 when down by 1 in the 2019 game 6 finals when there is 8.5 seconds still on the clock. 40% is an awesome average from 3 but it’s still a low percentage shot to be taking in that situation.

Jovic also has unique range for a center so he can pull the other team’s rim protector away from the basket, so it’s not like only Curry has a special ability

It might be worth noting if you gave complete context and comparison. But you don't. Another player could be 18 for 36 in such situations but the interpretation could properly be that that player found himself in 18 more situations to lose that Curry didn't because Curry was able to put away the game earlier.

[JayMKE]

Steph changed the whole sport, he’s the greatest shooter of all time. Jokic has a long way to go to surpass Curry’s resume, the distinction of being the most impactful on the league and sport as whole is Curry and its not really close.

[DonaldSanders]

Curry won a ring with a washed klay, draymond was having a terrible series against the celtics and wiggins as his second option, he's almost getting underrated around here.

Curry had a fantastic playoffs in 2022. He really came through in the clutch throughout the entire playoffs in a way he hadn't previously and that ring is what finally cemented him as the GOAT PG for me. But let's not use revisionist history to act like the team around him sucked and had a **** playoffs.

Here are the top 8 minutes guys sorted by postseason BPM on that Warriors team plus the last 2 Nuggets teams:

21/22 Warriors
Stephen Curry 7.7
Gary Payton II 7.4
Kevon Looney 3.1
Jordan Poole 2.8
Otto Porter Jr. 2.7
Draymond Green 0.9
Andrew Wiggins 0.8
Klay Thompson 0.7

22/23 Nuggets
Nikola Jokic 12.8
Jamal Murray 4.8
Bruce Brown 1.1
Kentavious Caldwell Pope -0.1
Aaron Gordon -0.2
Michael Porter Jr. -0.3
Christian Braun -1.4
Jeff Green -3.8

23/24 Nuggets
Nikola Jokic 12.8
Aaron Gordon 4.5
Michael Porter Jr. 0.6
Jamal Murray -1.4
Kentavious Caldwell Pope -1.4
Christian Braun -2.2
Justin Holiday -3.9
Reggie Jackson -7.0

The Warriors might not have had an ideal team in 21/22, but they were deep and the role players mostly stepped up incredibly well in the playoffs. Curry only had to play 34.7 MPG and they maintained a positive point differential with him on the bench. It wasn't some carry job. In fact, going back to 2014/15, probably the only championship teams that were more balanced and less reliant on their top star in the playoffs were the other Warriors' championship teams.

Keep in mind BPM isn't the same for each position, and that's why overall I don't find it particularly useful, especially in the modern game.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html#:~:text=BPM%20uses%20a%20player's%20box,is%20purely%20a%20rate%20stat!

Points and fouls are treated the same, but for everything else there is a positional adjustment. Assists from a center, for example, are almost double in value than an assist from a guard. DRBs are about 50% more valuable for a guard.

I personally think Jokic is good enough, despite fewer chips, to be comparable to Curry and I think either answer is fine just like I think LeBron or Jordan would be a fine answer for GOAT (though I lean Curry/Jordan in the discussion personally but find no fault in opposing opinions). But BPM is not particularly useful in the discussion, I think it's antiquated.

[Black Jack]

Prime Curry created a level of panic in defenses that even the great Jokic does not.