MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

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Who is your pick for the 2019-20 MVP?

Antetokounmpo
253
51%
James
53
11%
Walker
4
1%
Doncic
117
24%
Harden
27
5%
Siakam
12
2%
Jokic
4
1%
Leonard
5
1%
Davis
17
3%
Towns
5
1%
 
Total votes: 497

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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1521 » by Ambrose » Mon Dec 9, 2019 8:01 pm

NeutralObserver wrote:
MarcusBrody wrote:I don't think anyone could watch the Lakers regularly and think that Lebron isn't the best player on the team. AD is a weapon, but Lebron is who makes the whole thing tick. The Lakers often look somewhat listless when Lebron is out, but they generally still look very good when AD is out. This is largely about role - Lebron is the architect, AD is the finisher - but if you had to bet on the Lakers surviving an injury to one of them, you'd definitely bet on them having greater success with Lebron vs. AD, as great as Davis is.

Now, I'm not sure that makes Lebron AD over Giannis, but it also doesn't make sense to say that he's disqualified because AD had a great game.


Wow. LeBron fans with the casual revisionist history. We JUST saw the Lakers without AD last season getting their **** caved in by 40 points by the Oladipo-less Pacers. But yeah, AD's impact is surely negligible. I wonder what changed from this year and last year.

Geez @ this fluid goalpost. LeBron can be the architect, the carpenter, the locksmith, or whatever arbitrary role you wanna attribute to him.

The ENTIRE team feeds him like he's Wilt Chamberlain and he's casually dropping 20-30pts points by halftime without breaking a sweat.

Sounds pretty valuable to me.


Such a pathetic argument. The Lakers had a winning record when LeBron played last season and outscored opponents by a ton when he was on the court. The only reason they sucked last year is LeBron got hurt.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1522 » by nikster » Mon Dec 9, 2019 8:03 pm

NeutralObserver wrote:
MarcusBrody wrote:I don't think anyone could watch the Lakers regularly and think that Lebron isn't the best player on the team. AD is a weapon, but Lebron is who makes the whole thing tick. The Lakers often look somewhat listless when Lebron is out, but they generally still look very good when AD is out. This is largely about role - Lebron is the architect, AD is the finisher - but if you had to bet on the Lakers surviving an injury to one of them, you'd definitely bet on them having greater success with Lebron vs. AD, as great as Davis is.

Now, I'm not sure that makes Lebron AD over Giannis, but it also doesn't make sense to say that he's disqualified because AD had a great game.


Wow. LeBron fans with the casual revisionist history. We JUST saw the Lakers without AD last season getting their **** caved in by 40 points by the Oladipo-less Pacers. But yeah, AD's impact is surely negligible. I wonder what changed from this year and last year.

Geez @ this fluid goalpost. LeBron can be the architect, the carpenter, the locksmith, or whatever arbitrary role you wanna attribute to him.

The ENTIRE team feeds him like he's Wilt Chamberlain and he's casually dropping 20-30pts points by halftime without breaking a sweat.

Sounds pretty valuable to me.

Lebron is pretty obviously playing much better than he did last season, and almost the entire roster turned around. And the Lakers offense simply craters whenever he sits
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1523 » by NeutralObserver » Mon Dec 9, 2019 8:45 pm

Ambrose wrote:
NeutralObserver wrote:
MarcusBrody wrote:I don't think anyone could watch the Lakers regularly and think that Lebron isn't the best player on the team. AD is a weapon, but Lebron is who makes the whole thing tick. The Lakers often look somewhat listless when Lebron is out, but they generally still look very good when AD is out. This is largely about role - Lebron is the architect, AD is the finisher - but if you had to bet on the Lakers surviving an injury to one of them, you'd definitely bet on them having greater success with Lebron vs. AD, as great as Davis is.

Now, I'm not sure that makes Lebron AD over Giannis, but it also doesn't make sense to say that he's disqualified because AD had a great game.


Wow. LeBron fans with the casual revisionist history. We JUST saw the Lakers without AD last season getting their **** caved in by 40 points by the Oladipo-less Pacers. But yeah, AD's impact is surely negligible. I wonder what changed from this year and last year.

Geez @ this fluid goalpost. LeBron can be the architect, the carpenter, the locksmith, or whatever arbitrary role you wanna attribute to him.

The ENTIRE team feeds him like he's Wilt Chamberlain and he's casually dropping 20-30pts points by halftime without breaking a sweat.

Sounds pretty valuable to me.


Such a pathetic argument. The Lakers had a winning record when LeBron played last season and outscored opponents by a ton when he was on the court. The only reason they sucked last year is LeBron got hurt.


What about the games where he was healthy? Lmao.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1524 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Dec 9, 2019 9:05 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:AD is the Lakers leading scorer, leading rebounder, and the likely DPOY. How is he not MVP over Lebron?


You should know that LeBron is far more valuable from watching the games.

But here are the on/off stats for you:
Lakers are 12.2 points BETTER with LeBron on the court compared to when he's off the court
Lakers are 6 points WORSE with Davis on the court compared to when he's off the court


but Kobe is competing with Lebron not AD so we must pump up AD to help out Kobe. Get out of here with your data, sir. I say, get out!
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1525 » by Ambrose » Mon Dec 9, 2019 9:07 pm

NeutralObserver wrote:
Ambrose wrote:
NeutralObserver wrote:
Wow. LeBron fans with the casual revisionist history. We JUST saw the Lakers without AD last season getting their **** caved in by 40 points by the Oladipo-less Pacers. But yeah, AD's impact is surely negligible. I wonder what changed from this year and last year.

Geez @ this fluid goalpost. LeBron can be the architect, the carpenter, the locksmith, or whatever arbitrary role you wanna attribute to him.

The ENTIRE team feeds him like he's Wilt Chamberlain and he's casually dropping 20-30pts points by halftime without breaking a sweat.

Sounds pretty valuable to me.


Such a pathetic argument. The Lakers had a winning record when LeBron played last season and outscored opponents by a ton when he was on the court. The only reason they sucked last year is LeBron got hurt.


What about the games where he was healthy? Lmao.


They had a winning record. Lmao.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1526 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Dec 9, 2019 9:41 pm

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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1527 » by Magic Giannison » Mon Dec 9, 2019 9:44 pm

yoyoboy wrote:Hyperbole much? Toronto was only the 5th ranked defense on the year. The 2015, 2017, and 2018 Warriors, 2007 and 2016 Spurs, 2012 Celtics, 2012 Bulls, 2012 Heat, 2009 Magic, 2008 Celtics, and 2006 Pistons all very arguably had superior defenses.


Im talking during the playoffs , they had 2 DPoys and another fantastic defender on IBaka.
https://www.foxsports.com/nba/team-stats?season=2018&category=DEFENSE&group=1&sort=1&time=2&pos=0&team=1&qual=1&sortOrder=0&opp=0

In conjunction to the opponents they played and ther games played they had insane defense



No he wasn’t just naturally triple teamed. The Raptors just set up a wall of defenders in the paint because 1) they didn’t trust his passing game enough once he got into the paint to make them pay for that kind of coverage (and it worked) and 2) they were fine backing off him and letting him shoot from the perimeter where he would get guarded by basically nobody. That defensive scheme was just as much about exploiting Giannis’ weaknesses as it was trying to combat his strengths.
.


What does this even mean naturally triple teamed, he was triple and quadruple teamed in the area where he is doing damage the most and it was in the paint, why would anyone triple team a guy outside. They waited for him to drive and close his options at the paint and closed into him.

He was guarded by Kawhi in perimeter in fact Giannis was one of the best shooters of the team from 3 point line in the series.

22.7 ppg on 51.8% TS is pretty crap scoring. That’s over 4% below league average efficiency. It’s especially bad when you consider the fact he was an MVP who averaged 5 more ppg on 12.6% higher scoring efficiency during the regular season in 6 less minutes per game.


His TS% was low due to his Fts and not general scoring, he was guarded heavily while the team shot 28% from the floor and gave him no spacing

5.5 apg would be nice...until you consider the fact that it came alongside 4.2 topg. That’s very inefficient passing. So it’s fair to say his playmaking deficiencies were definitely taken advantage of by Toronto and he didn’t put on a passing display reminiscent of “Magic Johnson” as your username compares him to. For reference, his supporting cast posted 18.7 apg to 8.0 topg for the series.


Again context, he had so many turnovers because our main PG disappeared ( bledsoe) brogdon isnt good at it and our only backup is Hill. Giannis was literally trying to do everything on both ends. Bucks had no second option to help Giannis in that department.

Sure he rebounded well and played good defense against Siakam but it’s not like Siakam was exactly the scoring threat he’s developed into this year. Furthermore, he probably should’ve taken up the assignment of trying to guard Kawhi at some point - the dude who burned them for 30 ppg on 57.4% TS in the series.

Have you even watched the series? Again, Raptors had multiple scoring options during the series, Giannis did switch into Kawhi at some point and Raptors changed their plan to abuse our slower defense in the paint or use their guards to destroy us form the perimeter with their shooting, especially with Van Vleet.

Also Siakam was far more efficient than this year and had much lower volume compared to this year and it is explained because Kawhi left but that doesn't mean he wasn't as good then during playoffs as he is now, Giannis always plays great defense vs him as we saw this years game as well.

Draymond, Embiid, Horford, and Tucker were clearly better.

No nt even close, Daymond was terrible , Horford got destroyed by Giannis, Tucker :lol: and Embiid wasnt remotely as good.

Nothing’s been debunked. Giannis was awful in that a series against Toronto by MVP standards. If you can’t admit that, then you really hurt your credibility as someone who can look at things objectively and make an honest and logical argument rather than giving unwavering love and support to the guy you stan.

No he wasn't, the only awful was his FTs but if you actually watched the series and how terribly Bucks were playing you would know that there is no way Bucks couldve won those series, he whad our shooters terribly shooting,Bledsoe disappearing,Mirotic non excistent and so on.

Giannis alone had 31 potential assists from wide open 3s alone..

So yeah, you're promoting a false narrative that not only diminishes how good the Raptors were especially on defense which every analytics talked about ( weirdly you're the only missing that) but you also promote that Giannis played awful when he didnt under the circumstances and then you talk about objectivity....

I mean the fact you think Draymond and Horford and Tucker were good defenders during playoffs proves my point exactly.Just by looking at their defensive metrics a lot and their DTRG they were HORRIBLE to say at least.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1528 » by PhilBlackson » Mon Dec 9, 2019 10:10 pm

I got AD.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1529 » by Vsauce12 » Mon Dec 9, 2019 10:20 pm

yoyoboy wrote:
Magic Giannison wrote:AD performing great in the playoffs? what?

Giannis got neutralized?when?


What is this revisionists history im reading again.

Giannis was getting guarded by the best defensive team in the last 15 years,

Hyperbole much? Toronto was only the 5th ranked defense on the year. The 2015, 2017, and 2018 Warriors, 2007 and 2016 Spurs, 2012 Celtics, 2012 Bulls, 2012 Heat, 2009 Magic, 2008 Celtics, and 2006 Pistons all very arguably had superior defenses.
being triple teamed everytime

No he wasn’t just naturally triple teamed. The Raptors just set up a wall of defenders in the paint because 1) they didn’t trust his passing game enough once he got into the paint to make them pay for that kind of coverage (and it worked) and 2) they were fine backing off him and letting him shoot from the perimeter where he would get guarded by basically nobody. That defensive scheme was just as much about exploiting Giannis’ weaknesses as it was trying to combat his strengths.
and put 23/12/6 and shutting down Siakam all series.

22.7 ppg on 51.8% TS is pretty crap scoring. That’s over 4% below league average efficiency. It’s especially bad when you consider the fact he was an MVP who averaged 5 more ppg on 12.6% higher scoring efficiency during the regular season in 6 less minutes per game.

5.5 apg would be nice...until you consider the fact that it came alongside 4.2 topg. That’s very inefficient passing. So it’s fair to say his playmaking deficiencies were definitely taken advantage of by Toronto and he didn’t put on a passing display reminiscent of “Magic Johnson” as your username compares him to. For reference, his supporting cast posted 18.7 apg to 8.0 topg for the series.

Sure he rebounded well and played good defense against Siakam but it’s not like Siakam was exactly the scoring threat he’s developed into this year. Furthermore, he probably should’ve taken up the assignment of trying to guard Kawhi at some point - the dude who burned them for 30 ppg on 57.4% TS in the series.

In fact Giannis was the best defender in the playoffs.

Draymond, Embiid, Horford, and Tucker were clearly better.

Honestly, stop promoting false narratives that got debunked ages ago.

Nothing’s been debunked. Giannis was awful in that a series against Toronto by MVP standards. If you can’t admit that, then you really hurt your credibility as someone who can look at things objectively and make an honest and logical argument rather than giving unwavering love and support to the guy you stan.


5th ranked defence? Where dafuq are you getting your numbers from? The literally held opponents more than 7 points below their regular season average a feat that hasn’t been done since the 2004 pistons. All those teams you named, apart from the pistons never even came close to that level of defence. This all post is nothing but a joke tbh


“ Heading into the Finals, the Raptors allowed a playoff-low 85.8 points per 100”

“ The Raptors have an unimpeachably accomplished crew: Three Defensive Player of the Year awards, 10 All-Defensive teams, (none of which are accounted for by Lowry or Siakam), two time shot blocking lead in ibaka and zero weak points that stick out like sore thumbs”

Also if draymond, embiid, Horford and tucker were better? Why did he have better defensive stats than all of ‘em in the playoffs?

Defensive rating, Giannis ahead by a mile with 96.9

Defensive win shares even though its a cumulative stat and he played less games than draymond he still finished ahead of him 4th at 1.3

Defensive box plus minus Giannis second behind Gobert with 5.8, embiid third with 4.7

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2019_leaders.html

I’m not even going to address the rest of the bs you wrote. Your takes are bad, lebron Stan/laker Stan on an agenda, trying to act objective, cute

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/2019/6/2/18649333/toronto-raptors-defense-highlights-warriors-nba-finals-2019

https://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/year-offence-raptors-proved-defence-still-wins-titles/
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1530 » by Magic Giannison » Mon Dec 9, 2019 10:38 pm

I legit lost it when he said Green Horford and TUCKER were better, jesus
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1531 » by Magic Giannison » Mon Dec 9, 2019 10:45 pm

Image

This gif perfectly demonstrates what i was talking about and how Raptors were triple teaming them and Giannis having 31 potential assists from wide open 3s alone.

The Raptors took advantage of our terrible shooting and focused majority of their defense on Giannis an it worked, they defense was insanely good like ive said
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1532 » by MarcusBrody » Mon Dec 9, 2019 10:55 pm

reignfire wrote:AD's net rating per 100: +8 on court/+14 off court (-6)

Lebron James: +13.3 on/+1.1 off (+12.2)

Kawhi Leonard: +12.2 on/+0.6 off (+11.6)

Greek Freak: +16 on/+9.3 off (+6.7)

Luka Doncic: +7.7 on/+12.4 off (-4.7)

James Harden: +10 on/-8.7 off (+18.7) This is skewed IMO because he's their only offense when he's on court.

Jimmy Butler +9.9 on/-0.5 off (+10.4)


So basically the most impact players so far this season are Lebron, Kawhi, and Jimmy Butler. People can argue for Harden as well but I won't. Luka and AD not looking good because their teams do better when they sit.

Greek is an amazing +16 when he plays but without him his team is still +9.3 per 100.

I think the 3 top guys this season when it comes to impact on team success is:

1. Lebron
2. Kawhi
3. Jimmy Butler

Stats are a different story. But that's for other people to be concerned with.


This needs contextualized too. Despite what Colbinii said, Lebron and Davis almost never both sit at the same time. What's killing Davis's net rating is how good Lebron has been with the second unit when AD has been getting his break. This doesn't mean that AD has been a net negative as a player. It just means that Lebron has been tearing up teams when playing with the reserves (often against more of the other teams' second units).
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1533 » by Vsauce12 » Mon Dec 9, 2019 10:56 pm

Magic Giannison wrote:I legit lost it when he said Green Horford and TUCKER were better, jesus

Tucker was just random, like where did that name come from? :o
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1534 » by An Unbiased Fan » Mon Dec 9, 2019 11:20 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:AD is the Lakers leading scorer, leading rebounder, and the likely DPOY. How is he not MVP over Lebron?


You should know that LeBron is far more valuable from watching the games.

But here are the on/off stats for you:
Lakers are 12.2 points BETTER with LeBron on the court compared to when he's off the court
Lakers are 6 points WORSE with Davis on the court compared to when he's off the court


but Kobe is competing with Lebron not AD so we must pump up AD to help out Kobe. Get out of here with your data, sir. I say, get out!

How does Kobe come up??? :nonono:

If you think Lebron is the Laker MVP, fine. But to act like a poential DPOY, who turned aorund the Laker defnese, and who leads the team in both scoiring and rebounding isn't a valid pick, is a bit much.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1535 » by An Unbiased Fan » Mon Dec 9, 2019 11:22 pm

MarcusBrody wrote:
reignfire wrote:AD's net rating per 100: +8 on court/+14 off court (-6)

Lebron James: +13.3 on/+1.1 off (+12.2)

Kawhi Leonard: +12.2 on/+0.6 off (+11.6)

Greek Freak: +16 on/+9.3 off (+6.7)

Luka Doncic: +7.7 on/+12.4 off (-4.7)

James Harden: +10 on/-8.7 off (+18.7) This is skewed IMO because he's their only offense when he's on court.

Jimmy Butler +9.9 on/-0.5 off (+10.4)


So basically the most impact players so far this season are Lebron, Kawhi, and Jimmy Butler. People can argue for Harden as well but I won't. Luka and AD not looking good because their teams do better when they sit.

Greek is an amazing +16 when he plays but without him his team is still +9.3 per 100.

I think the 3 top guys this season when it comes to impact on team success is:

1. Lebron
2. Kawhi
3. Jimmy Butler

Stats are a different story. But that's for other people to be concerned with.


This needs contextualized too. Despite what Colbinii said, Lebron and Davis almost never both sit at the same time. What's killing Davis's net rating is how good Lebron has been with the second unit when AD has been getting his break. This doesn't mean that AD has been a net negative as a player. It just means that Lebron has been tearing up teams when playing with the reserves (often against more of the other teams' second units).

This is exactly right. +/- is a rotational stat and it's a reflection of lineups, not player impact.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1536 » by yoyoboy » Mon Dec 9, 2019 11:36 pm



Keep thinking Giannis and his 22.7 ppg on 4.2% below league average efficiency along with 5.5 apg to 4.2 topg was MVP quality play though! It's everybody's else's fault but him, got it. He deserves absolutely no blame for not being able to make weak side passes out of the double, being slow to kick the ball out after drawing the defense in the paint, missing point blank shots even when he didn't encounter the wall (because Toronto was able to get him out of rhythm), and not being able to act as a floor spacer for his teammates at any point because of his inability to reliably hit shots outside of the paint.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1537 » by Dupp » Mon Dec 9, 2019 11:46 pm

Embiid was the best defender last playoffs.


Also what’s so funny about tucker? Do people not know he’s a good defender?


Gasol might have been the most valuable defender last post season though. His defense on embiid and giannis directly let to a title.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1538 » by clyde21 » Mon Dec 9, 2019 11:53 pm

Giannis

and no one else is close
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1539 » by Magic Giannison » Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:10 am

This video again, i swear , people dont have anything else but using the same **** by one random dude that gets debunked over and over.

Im tired of doing this especially against Lebron stans.


Back on topic....


Unless Luka or Harden go on some insane streak i dont think Giannis will lose this.
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Re: MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened 

Post#1540 » by Vsauce12 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:52 am

Dupp wrote:Embiid was the best defender last playoffs.


Also what’s so funny about tucker? Do people not know he’s a good defender?


Gasol might have been the most valuable defender last post season though. His defense on embiid and giannis directly let to a title.


Prove it, show the defensive stats. Because Giannis was ahead of him (already posted the stats in a previous reply) in everything, Giannis even out rebounded him. A lot of you here are just straight up talking out your ass

And yes tucker is a good defender but nowhere near the level of a Giannis, which is why of all the defensive players that joker could name, He brought up tucker of all people. Kind of hard to take your point seriously

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