RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[ScrantonBulls]

For every 2.3 people that think Jordan is the GOAT, there is 1 person that think LeBron is the GOAT.

The gap is closing on consensus.

Nah. The PC forum posters headed over here to vote. They were all commenting around that time the voting changed as well.
If you poll the public, it's not close.

And when he retires, the gap widens again. That's how it always works.
I remember a Kobe vs MJ poll being way closer than it should have been.

Why? All of the Kobe fans that were on the forums because it was during Kobe's playing days.

The gap getting smaller after LBJ gets kicked out of the playoffs would make no sense, wouldn't you agree?

The mental gymnastics you perform to try and convince yourself that LeBron's legacy will fade is simply awesome. Fabricating a complete lie that Kobe was legitimately in the GOAT conversation with MJ, and then fabricating a false equivalence between Kobe and LeBron. I love it.

[bledredwine]

For every 2.3 people that think Jordan is the GOAT, there is 1 person that think LeBron is the GOAT.

The gap is closing on consensus.

Nah. The PC forum posters headed over here to vote. They were all commenting around that time the voting changed as well.
If you poll the public, it's not close.

And when he retires, the gap widens again. That's how it always works.
I remember a Kobe vs MJ poll being way closer than it should have been.

Why? All of the Kobe fans that were on the forums because it was during Kobe's playing days.

The gap getting smaller after LBJ gets kicked out of the playoffs would make no sense, wouldn't you agree?

The mental gymnastics you perform to try and convince yourself that LeBron's legacy will fade is simply awesome. Fabricating a complete lie that Kobe was legitimately in the GOAT conversation with MJ, and then fabricating a false equivalence between Kobe and LeBron. I love it.

You’ll see

[michaelm]

For every 2.3 people that think Jordan is the GOAT, there is 1 person that think LeBron is the GOAT.

The gap is closing on consensus.

Nah. The PC forum posters headed over here to vote. They were all commenting around that time the voting changed as well.
If you poll the public, it's not close.

And when he retires, the gap widens again. That's how it always works.
I remember a Kobe vs MJ poll being way closer than it should have been.

Why? All of the Kobe fans that were on the forums because it was during Kobe's playing days.

The gap getting smaller after LBJ gets kicked out of the playoffs would make no sense, wouldn't you agree?

The mental gymnastics you perform to try and convince yourself that LeBron's legacy will fade is simply awesome. Fabricating a complete lie that Kobe was legitimately in the GOAT conversation with MJ, and then fabricating a false equivalence between Kobe and LeBron. I love it.

So only people who disagree with you engage in mental gymnastics ?.

Kobe was not on LeBron’s or Jordan’s level imo either, while still a great player who was very good at winning. However it is not untrue that at the height of his career he actually was likened to Jordan, which is different than him really being on Jordan’s or LeBron’s level, and it is also true that any such talk has faded in his retirement.

We shall see what happens with Jordan vs LeBron, but recency bias is a thing. I doubt the memory of LeBron will fade after he is retired as much as Kobe’s has, and on the other hand the Jordan partisans who followed him in his time are aging and presumably the Jordan publicity machine will eventually wind down, but imo it is true to say that how LeBron will be evaluated by posterity awaits posterity.

[lessthanjake]

For every 2.3 people that think Jordan is the GOAT, there is 1 person that think LeBron is the GOAT.

The gap is closing on consensus.

Nah. The PC forum posters headed over here to vote. They were all commenting around that time the voting changed as well.
If you poll the public, it's not close.

And when he retires, the gap widens again. That's how it always works.
I remember a Kobe vs MJ poll being way closer than it should have been.

Why? All of the Kobe fans that were on the forums because it was during Kobe's playing days.

The gap getting smaller after LBJ gets kicked out of the playoffs would make no sense, wouldn't you agree?

The mental gymnastics you perform to try and convince yourself that LeBron's legacy will fade is simply awesome. Fabricating a complete lie that Kobe was legitimately in the GOAT conversation with MJ, and then fabricating a false equivalence between Kobe and LeBron. I love it.

I think it’s genuinely very rare for a sports player to become the most common answer from people regarding the GOAT of the player’s sport without having already been widely considered the GOAT at the tail end of their career. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any example of it happening. Guys like Jordan, Gretzky, Pele, Ruth, Brady, etc. were all widely considered the GOAT while they were playing. Messi is currently widely considered the GOAT while he is still playing, and that seems likely to stick afterwards. And the annals of sports are also filled with lots of players who got at least some “GOAT” talk at the tail end of their careers but stopped being talked about that way afterwards. Public perception of a player’s greatness in the waning stages of a player’s career is generally the high water mark. If LeBron does not end his career as the consensus GOAT, I think it’s pretty unlikely that he will ever be considered the consensus GOAT. That said, he actually is still playing, so there’s still some time for him to do it—for instance, if he won another title, I think there’s a decent chance that’d significantly shift the balance. The other thing I’ll note about this is that LeBron not being considered the consensus GOAT doesn’t mean Jordan will keep holding the title perpetually—Jordan will just remain the default answer until someone eventually comes along and supplants him, likely aided in part by Jordan becoming ancient history. Whoever supplants Jordan will just very likely be considered to have supplanted him while that guy is still playing.

[michaelm]

Nah. The PC forum posters headed over here to vote. They were all commenting around that time the voting changed as well.
If you poll the public, it's not close.

And when he retires, the gap widens again. That's how it always works.
I remember a Kobe vs MJ poll being way closer than it should have been.

Why? All of the Kobe fans that were on the forums because it was during Kobe's playing days.

The gap getting smaller after LBJ gets kicked out of the playoffs would make no sense, wouldn't you agree?

The mental gymnastics you perform to try and convince yourself that LeBron's legacy will fade is simply awesome. Fabricating a complete lie that Kobe was legitimately in the GOAT conversation with MJ, and then fabricating a false equivalence between Kobe and LeBron. I love it.

I think it’s genuinely very rare for a sports player to become the most common answer from people regarding the GOAT of the player’s sport without having already been widely considered the GOAT at the tail end of their career. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any example of it happening. Guys like Jordan, Gretzky, Pele, Ruth, Brady, etc. were all widely considered the GOAT while they were playing. Messi is currently widely considered the GOAT while he is still playing, and that seems likely to stick afterwards. And the annals of sports are also filled with lots of players who got at least some “GOAT” talk at the tail end of their careers but stopped being talked about that way afterwards. Public perception of a player’s greatness in the waning stages of a player’s career is generally the high water mark. If LeBron does not end his career as the consensus GOAT, I think it’s pretty unlikely that he will ever be considered the consensus GOAT. That said, he actually is still playing, so there’s still some time for him to do it—for instance, if he won another title, I think there’s a decent chance that’d significantly shift the balance. The other thing I’ll note about this is that LeBron not being considered the consensus GOAT doesn’t mean Jordan will keep holding the title perpetually—Jordan will just remain the default answer until someone eventually comes along and supplants him, likely aided in part by Jordan becoming ancient history. Whoever supplants Jordan will just very likely be considered to have supplanted him while that guy is still playing.

I suspect with the passage of time Jordan will become like Bill Russell, regarded as amazing in his day but with his day receding into the distant past.

I can’t see that LeBron will be the one to supplant him though, he hasn’t done anything to really set him apart like 2 threepeats, taking the sport to the world, making the NIke brand, etc. As you say if he was going to supplant Jordan he would probably have done so by now, and statistics particularly longevity statistics won’t do it imo as they didn’t really for Kareem whether or not they should have done.

[bledredwine]

The mental gymnastics you perform to try and convince yourself that LeBron's legacy will fade is simply awesome. Fabricating a complete lie that Kobe was legitimately in the GOAT conversation with MJ, and then fabricating a false equivalence between Kobe and LeBron. I love it.

I think it’s genuinely very rare for a sports player to become the most common answer from people regarding the GOAT of the player’s sport without having already been widely considered the GOAT at the tail end of their career. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any example of it happening. Guys like Jordan, Gretzky, Pele, Ruth, Brady, etc. were all widely considered the GOAT while they were playing. Messi is currently widely considered the GOAT while he is still playing, and that seems likely to stick afterwards. And the annals of sports are also filled with lots of players who got at least some “GOAT” talk at the tail end of their careers but stopped being talked about that way afterwards. Public perception of a player’s greatness in the waning stages of a player’s career is generally the high water mark. If LeBron does not end his career as the consensus GOAT, I think it’s pretty unlikely that he will ever be considered the consensus GOAT. That said, he actually is still playing, so there’s still some time for him to do it—for instance, if he won another title, I think there’s a decent chance that’d significantly shift the balance. The other thing I’ll note about this is that LeBron not being considered the consensus GOAT doesn’t mean Jordan will keep holding the title perpetually—Jordan will just remain the default answer until someone eventually comes along and supplants him, likely aided in part by Jordan becoming ancient history. Whoever supplants Jordan will just very likely be considered to have supplanted him while that guy is still playing.

I suspect with the passage of time Jordan will become like Bill Russell, regarded as amazing in his day but with his day receding into the distant past.

I can’t see that LeBron will be the one to supplant him though, he hasn’t done anything to really set him apart like 2 threepeats, taking the sport to the world, making the NIke brand, etc. As you say if he was going to supplant Jordan he would probably have done so by now, and statistics particularly longevity statistics won’t do it imo as they didn’t really for Kareem whether or not they should have done.

I don't think so for a couple of reasons;

1. Russell's career began just a decade after the inception of the NBA.

The game had not developed, you didn't have many bigs, and you certainly didn't have a player that "had it all" other than maybe Wilt.
Jordan was more of a Maradona, where he was an outlier that played when the NBA had developed after plenty of decades.

2. We have video

You can look on YouTube. So for anyone trying to compare someone, you just pull of video and say "enjoy the eye test"
Thanks to that, people can't take the Lebron comparisons and era conversation too seriously, because you see what a freak
Jordan was, that he was more skilled than the players today and that the things he was able to do would not come easy for anyone.

3. Russell had some big flaws

Russell very well may have been an outlier and effective on both ends, but stats say otherwise since his teammates usually carried the scoring and he has had multiple finals series with terrible field goal percentage and low volume. He had to have been an absolute freak monster of a defender to make up for that in the GOAT debate, and that's why most people don't rate him GOAT (lack on the offensive end). If Russell was a dominant offensive
player, he'd be number 2 or even 1, no question. But his scoring... sucked, comparatively. And that's important. Jordan has 10 scoring titles and was clearly the best scorer we've seen. He also was a hell of an assister, rebounder, steals, blocks all for his position and one of the best defenders in the league. You just don't see that.

Jordan is the Pele of basketball if Pele came later (Hence, why I say Maradona)

He's Mike Tyson's peak dominance compared with Ali's career and that's fricking nuts. He's Gretzky or Babe.
I haven't seen anyone that close to 87-93 Jordan... yet. That Jordan would dominate series after series, putting up historical finals series.
96-98 Jordan? Sure, I've seen players that are closer

That's why I was excited for Wemby but that hasn't shaped up yet either.

[michaelm]

I think it’s genuinely very rare for a sports player to become the most common answer from people regarding the GOAT of the player’s sport without having already been widely considered the GOAT at the tail end of their career. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any example of it happening. Guys like Jordan, Gretzky, Pele, Ruth, Brady, etc. were all widely considered the GOAT while they were playing. Messi is currently widely considered the GOAT while he is still playing, and that seems likely to stick afterwards. And the annals of sports are also filled with lots of players who got at least some “GOAT” talk at the tail end of their careers but stopped being talked about that way afterwards. Public perception of a player’s greatness in the waning stages of a player’s career is generally the high water mark. If LeBron does not end his career as the consensus GOAT, I think it’s pretty unlikely that he will ever be considered the consensus GOAT. That said, he actually is still playing, so there’s still some time for him to do it—for instance, if he won another title, I think there’s a decent chance that’d significantly shift the balance. The other thing I’ll note about this is that LeBron not being considered the consensus GOAT doesn’t mean Jordan will keep holding the title perpetually—Jordan will just remain the default answer until someone eventually comes along and supplants him, likely aided in part by Jordan becoming ancient history. Whoever supplants Jordan will just very likely be considered to have supplanted him while that guy is still playing.

I suspect with the passage of time Jordan will become like Bill Russell, regarded as amazing in his day but with his day receding into the distant past.

I can’t see that LeBron will be the one to supplant him though, he hasn’t done anything to really set him apart like 2 threepeats, taking the sport to the world, making the NIke brand, etc. As you say if he was going to supplant Jordan he would probably have done so by now, and statistics particularly longevity statistics won’t do it imo as they didn’t really for Kareem whether or not they should have done.

I don't think so for a couple of reasons;

1. Russell's career began just a decade after the inception of the NBA.

The game had not developed, you didn't have many bigs, and you certainly didn't have a player that "had it all" other than maybe Wilt.
Jordan was more of a Maradona, where he was an outlier that played when the NBA had developed after plenty of decades.

2. We have video

You can look on YouTube. So for anyone trying to compare someone, you just pull of video and say "enjoy the eye test"
Thanks to that, people can't take the Lebron comparisons and era conversation too seriously, because you see what a freak
Jordan was, that he was more skilled than the players today and that the things he was able to do would not come easy for anyone.

3. Russell had some big flaws

Russell very well may have been an outlier and effective on both ends, but stats say otherwise since his teammates usually carried the scoring and he has had multiple finals series with terrible field goal percentage and low volume. He had to have been an absolute freak monster of a defender to make up for that in the GOAT debate, and that's why most people don't rate him GOAT (lack on the offensive end). If Russell was a dominant offensive
player, he'd be number 2 or even 1, no question. But his scoring... sucked, comparatively. And that's important. Jordan has 10 scoring titles and was clearly the best scorer we've seen. He also was a hell of an assister, rebounder, steals, blocks all for his position and one of the best defenders in the league. You just don't see that.

Jordan is the Pele of basketball if Pele came later (Hence, why I say Maradona)

He's Mike Tyson's peak dominance compared with Ali's career and that's fricking nuts. He's Gretzky or Babe.
I haven't seen anyone that close to 87-93 Jordan... 1 yet. That Jordan would dominate series after series, putting up historical finals series.
96-98 Jordan? Sure, I've seen players that are closer

That's why I was excited for Wemby but that hasn't shaped up yet either.

I agree with most of this, and for me personally I doubt anyone will exceed him in my lifetime, but I watched him in his time. 50 years after his career I could see a narrative arising that he was obviously great but dominated lesser days, LeBron fans are running that line of argument already as well as outright detraction from Jordan.

The Air Jordan tag continues to be iconic, they still sell boatloads of the shoes I believe, and there isn’t really an equivalent tag for LeBron, forearm jolt LeBron not having quite the same resonance.

We shall see with Wemby, but he hasn’t really looked on the level of a young Jordan or young LeBron thus far.

[GrindCityHustle]

As an old head I know my generation will burn down Paris before they take off Jordan from the top of the list. I prefer to look at in more objectively with age.

That said I feel maybe the new generation is less enamored with number 23 than even 5 years ago. He is looked at as a dude that is the prototype for the perfect player even though he wasn't

My personal opinion is that LeBron played at a higher level longer. I feel Jordan had the best prime of any player ever and did it twice on top of that.

Do you feel the newer generation feels the same way about Jordan or is the way the game is looked at now is different.

[sp6r=underrated]

FWIW, I think Lebron is clearly # 1 by objective criteria.

That said even if MJ had a better case, he would be fading. First, a majority of NBA fans probably don't remember MJ. MJ never had an overwhelming objective case for the GOAT. Kareem had a very credible argument as did Russell. But MJ passed those guys easily on a majority of lists for a subjective reason, people loved watching MJ play. That wasn't true for Kareem or Russell. Now a majority of fans don't remember watching MJ so he doesn't get the style points. And that makes it easier for them to notice real flaws dismissed by the MJ generation, which I am one by age, he just didn't have many elite seasons compared to Kareem and especially Lebron.

Second, the style of play in MJ's era is extremely different from today, which wasn't true in 2013 but it is now. A lot of young fans watch MJ games, sneer at the players and dismiss MJ's accomplished due to opposition quality, "played against plumbers." MJ fans did this to the older players before him. And 2040 fans will do this to Lebron.

So yea, MJ is fading a bit. First, for a good reason. He's lost the halo that 80s/90 kids gave him. Second, the inevitable passage of time weakens all athletes reps which are basically sand castles.

[Showtime 80]

As an old head I know my generation will burn down Paris before they take off Jordan from the top of the list. I prefer to look at in more objectively with age.

That said I feel maybe the new generation is less enamored with number 23 than even 5 years ago. He is looked at as a dude that is the prototype for the perfect player even though he wasn't

My personal opinion is that LeBron played at a higher level longer. I feel Jordan had the best prime of any player ever and did it twice on top of that.

Do you feel the newer generation feels the same way about Jordan or is the way the game is looked at now is different.

Not a chance and here’s a nice breakdown on why:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUZY29saW4gY293aGVyZCBqb3JkYW4gbmlsZQ%3D%3D

This line sums it up, “LeBron tries to be cool, MJ is cool”.

Michael ascended to that rare Babe Ruth, Pele, Ali, Gretzky, Senna realm when you become not just a sport icon but also a cultural icon. LeBron for how great he is did not reach that level. Even the modern misguided Hip Hop urban “culture” which worships ghetto behaviors and has grown men dressing and acting like brain dead teenagers is still mesmerized by Jordan and his brand which is as un-hip hop as they come, he just made it too cool.

Mike made the baggy shorts, wrist band on the forearm, bald look, the number 23, basketball sneakers among other things into trend setting statements. What trend has LeBron started? Team hopping?

You also have thousands upon thousands of hours of MJ footage which a lot of has been re-mastered to HD and it looks like he just played a game last week unlike the greats from prior eras. This along with the fact that the man is still the most exciting athlete who ever put on a uniform and there will be no shortage of new fans coming for the foreseeable future.

[Showtime 80]

FWIW, I think Lebron is clearly # 1 by objective criteria.

That said even if MJ had a better case, he would be fading. First, a majority of NBA fans probably don't remember MJ. MJ never had an overwhelming objective case for the GOAT. Kareem had a very credible argument as did Russell. But MJ passed those guys easily on a majority of lists for a subjective reason, people loved watching MJ play. That wasn't true for Kareem or Russell. Now a majority of fans don't remember watching MJ so he doesn't get the style points. And that makes it easier for them to notice real flaws dismissed by the MJ generation, which I am one by age, he just didn't have many elite seasons compared to Kareem and especially Lebron.

Second, the style of play in MJ's era is extremely different from today, which wasn't true in 2013 but it is now. A lot of young fans watch MJ games, sneer at the players and dismiss MJ's accomplished due to opposition quality, "played against plumbers." MJ fans did this to the older players before him. And 2040 fans will do this to Lebron.

So yea, MJ is fading a bit. First, for a good reason. He's lost the halo that 80s/90 kids gave him. Second, the inevitable passage of time weakens all athletes reps which are basically sand castles.

In 1998 an old MJ dominated a league that had this list of players:

Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Iverson
Allen
Kidd
Garnett
Nash
Webber
Billups
Wallace
Hamilton

Guess what those guys did after he retired? They went on to absolutely dominate the NBA up until 2014 overlapping with guys like LeBron, Curry, Durant and Harden.

People who are not blind know that prime Jordan would’ve dominated the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, 2000’s,, 10’s, 20’s or 40’s like you said. That’s what being the greatest is all about.

[Jta444]

Mike is SGA on steroids.

A stronger, slightly heavier SGA with even more quickness and hops, with an even more automatic midrange. Also better defense, bigger hands, and an even better attacking mentality although SGA is no slouch in that department.

I think Mike is what you’d get if you merge SGA and Ant together, without the 3 point shooting of both though.

Goes to show you how Mike if he played today would easily be the best player, above Jokic for sure. He would dominate.

[Swindle]

I’ve been reading that it’s reported MJ hates the GOAT debate and thinks more current players deserve more respect. He’s gonna be a special contributor during NBC’s NBA coverage so don’t be surprised if you see him hyping today’s players in an effort to move the game forward.

[MavsDirk41]

FWIW, I think Lebron is clearly # 1 by objective criteria.

That said even if MJ had a better case, he would be fading. First, a majority of NBA fans probably don't remember MJ. MJ never had an overwhelming objective case for the GOAT. Kareem had a very credible argument as did Russell. But MJ passed those guys easily on a majority of lists for a subjective reason, people loved watching MJ play. That wasn't true for Kareem or Russell. Now a majority of fans don't remember watching MJ so he doesn't get the style points. And that makes it easier for them to notice real flaws dismissed by the MJ generation, which I am one by age, he just didn't have many elite seasons compared to Kareem and especially Lebron.

Second, the style of play in MJ's era is extremely different from today, which wasn't true in 2013 but it is now. A lot of young fans watch MJ games, sneer at the players and dismiss MJ's accomplished due to opposition quality, "played against plumbers." MJ fans did this to the older players before him. And 2040 fans will do this to Lebron.

So yea, MJ is fading a bit. First, for a good reason. He's lost the halo that 80s/90 kids gave him. Second, the inevitable passage of time weakens all athletes reps which are basically sand castles.

The only thing James has over Jordan is the longevity/accumulating stats argument. I dont see any other possible argument. And James will never escape his finals failure in 2011 and his picking his teammates moreso than any other generational talent that i can think of. I have Kareem #2 all tine. Too young to have watched his career but he is the greatest college player ever and has the championships and accolades to be in the goat discussion. There is no consensus goat but Jordan is the closest thing we have to one. 20 years from now who knows, could be Wemby.

[MavsDirk41]

I’ve been reading that it’s reported MJ hates the GOAT debate and thinks more current players deserve more respect. He’s gonna be a special contributor during NBC’s NBA coverage so don’t be surprised if you see him hyping today’s players in an effort to move the game forward.

Interested in what he says about Wemby. Wemby could be the next face of the nba.

[bledredwine]

I’ve been reading that it’s reported MJ hates the GOAT debate and thinks more current players deserve more respect. He’s gonna be a special contributor during NBC’s NBA coverage so don’t be surprised if you see him hyping today’s players in an effort to move the game forward.

I already knew he didn't like the GOAT conversation as he thought it was disrespectful to past players during his playing days.

But what sources did you hear/read this from?

[The4thHorseman]

FWIW, I think Lebron is clearly # 1 by objective criteria.

That said even if MJ had a better case, he would be fading. First, a majority of NBA fans probably don't remember MJ. MJ never had an overwhelming objective case for the GOAT. Kareem had a very credible argument as did Russell. But MJ passed those guys easily on a majority of lists for a subjective reason, people loved watching MJ play. That wasn't true for Kareem or Russell. Now a majority of fans don't remember watching MJ so he doesn't get the style points. And that makes it easier for them to notice real flaws dismissed by the MJ generation, which I am one by age, he just didn't have many elite seasons compared to Kareem and especially Lebron.

Second, the style of play in MJ's era is extremely different from today, which wasn't true in 2013 but it is now. A lot of young fans watch MJ games, sneer at the players and dismiss MJ's accomplished due to opposition quality, "played against plumbers." MJ fans did this to the older players before him. And 2040 fans will do this to Lebron.

So yea, MJ is fading a bit. First, for a good reason. He's lost the halo that 80s/90 kids gave him. Second, the inevitable passage of time weakens all athletes reps which are basically sand castles.

The only thing James has over Jordan is the longevity/accumulating stats argument. I dont see any other possible argument. And James will never escape his finals failure in 2011 and his picking his teammates moreso than any other generational talent that i can think of. I have Kareem #2 all tine. Too young to have watched his career but he is the greatest college player ever and has the championships and accolades to be in the goat discussion. There is no consensus goat but Jordan is the closest thing we have to one. 20 years from now who knows, could be Wemby.

Picking his teammates

[Braggins]

This website is oversaturated with genX and older millennial posters, so the MJ consensus on here will outlive the MJ consensus irl, but its inevitable that Lebron will be considered the GOAT at some point after he retires. I think its very obvious he already should be considered the GOAT and its silly its still even a debate.

[MavsDirk41]

FWIW, I think Lebron is clearly # 1 by objective criteria.

That said even if MJ had a better case, he would be fading. First, a majority of NBA fans probably don't remember MJ. MJ never had an overwhelming objective case for the GOAT. Kareem had a very credible argument as did Russell. But MJ passed those guys easily on a majority of lists for a subjective reason, people loved watching MJ play. That wasn't true for Kareem or Russell. Now a majority of fans don't remember watching MJ so he doesn't get the style points. And that makes it easier for them to notice real flaws dismissed by the MJ generation, which I am one by age, he just didn't have many elite seasons compared to Kareem and especially Lebron.

Second, the style of play in MJ's era is extremely different from today, which wasn't true in 2013 but it is now. A lot of young fans watch MJ games, sneer at the players and dismiss MJ's accomplished due to opposition quality, "played against plumbers." MJ fans did this to the older players before him. And 2040 fans will do this to Lebron.

So yea, MJ is fading a bit. First, for a good reason. He's lost the halo that 80s/90 kids gave him. Second, the inevitable passage of time weakens all athletes reps which are basically sand castles.

The only thing James has over Jordan is the longevity/accumulating stats argument. I dont see any other possible argument. And James will never escape his finals failure in 2011 and his picking his teammates moreso than any other generational talent that i can think of. I have Kareem #2 all tine. Too young to have watched his career but he is the greatest college player ever and has the championships and accolades to be in the goat discussion. There is no consensus goat but Jordan is the closest thing we have to one. 20 years from now who knows, could be Wemby.

Picking his teammates

You want to argue that lol? Lets go….

[MavsDirk41]

This website is oversaturated with genX and older millennial posters, so the MJ consensus with on here with outlive the MJ consensus irl, but its inevitable that Lebron will be considered the GOAT at some point after he retires. I think its very obvious he already should be considered the GOAT and its silly its still even a debate.

If it was obvious more people would think he is… so its not obvious