OhayoKD wrote:It seems I've been summoned!
twyzted wrote: that ohayokd seems to have some weird issue with Jordan and since the numbers he refrences are locked behind a paywall i take them with a grain of salt, i want to be able to see them myself.
Unless I'm missing something, all the numbers
I referenced are publicly available.
As Enig outlined, the bballref stats(which do the worst job predicting winning for fwiw) lean MJ in the rs and favor Lebron in the playoffs. And far as data goes, that's about the best it gets for his airness.
No bbref stats all point in favour of Jordan in non-cumolative stats. Adv or reg stats
OhayoKD wrote:Since mj-topics tend to boil over, i'd like to preface this with a request that we all try our best to be nice to each other
Now, to jump into the deep end...
opofsaidthreaf wrote:Do any?
My short answer is
no. But getting to that short answer is a more involved process.
Sorry this answer makes me take
EVERYTHING you say about Jordan as bs and needs no further reading.
OhayoKD wrote:TLDR: Lebron is flatly a significantly more impactful defender(as in he's more valuable in the rs in his 30's before major playoff elevation), matches Jordan in the box-stuff(despite it not accounting for defense), has an overwhelming advantage when we isolate for winning/impact(this stuff accounts for defense), remains as or more valuable in contexts which are theoretically sub-optimal(2005-2007, 2015, 2012, 2020), and is managing all this facing a more talented league/larger talent pool.
If you hone in on his second cleveland stint(where he still looks more valuable in the regular season), Lebron also sports a pretty big resiliency advantage seeing his defenses and offenses improve when they face better competition with his scoring/playmaking volume and efficiency effectively impervious against top defenses/offenses(including the warriors).
Right that is why in 2015 finals Lebron needed 32 shots per game to score 35ppg on 39.8fg%
And the east in the cavs stint is the weakest conference in quite long time.
2015 cavs cf: drtg 99.7 - ortg 114
2015 cavs finals: drtg 107.3 - ortg 99.6
2016 cavs cf: drtg 101.2 - ortg 118.5
2016 cavs finals: drtg 108.5 - ortg 109.1
2017cavs cf: drtg 107 - ortg 128.4
2017 cavs finals: drtg 121.3 - ortg 114.6
2018 cavs cf: drtg 105.5 - ortg 106.4
2018 cavs finals: drtg 124.5 - ortg 108.5
No defense does in fact not improve when facing better competition.
Offense in 1 year gets better.
When you say isolate for winning then winning the title surely must be significantly more valueble then not? You can hate the rings argument all you want but that is the whole goal of the competition.
f.i one of the argument people had for Messi not being the goat in soccer was he hadnt won with his national team.
P.s yes i know Russel has more rings, ive never said that he doesnt have a good case for goat or he might even be.
OhayoKD wrote: Lebron sees his stuff go up as a series progresses(Jordan's stats drop across the board), and Lebron is able to mantain his stronger regular season and postseason influence despite having significantly more milage.
All considered, I'd say there's a
plethora of strong peak/prime based arguments to work with here covering everything from resume to well, you know,
helping teams win. In fact, there are solid arguments for various players, even if we hone in on "peak/prime"(Russell and Kareem chief among them).
PS: The PC Board is fun. You should come down more often.
On what are you basing this Jordan stats go down as series goes on? The Seattle series? That is the only series where his stats dip as the series goes on.
Utah finals 97
Games 1-4 series tied 2-2
46%fg 31%3pt 73%ft 6rpg 7apg 1spg 1bpg 29ppg
Games 5-6 closes out the series
45%fg 33%3pt 82%fr 9rpg 5apg 2spg 1bpg 39ppg
Utah finals 98
Games 1-3
45%fg 25%3pt 86%ft 4rpg 2apg 1spg 1bpg 31ppg
Games 3-6
41%fg 33%ft 78%ft 4rpg 2apg 3spg 36ppg
His fg&ft% goes down but scores more.
No i have zero interest in go more often then i do in the Lebron board, since you guys have the tendency to resort to belittle and being rude to posters who argue against Lebron.
How ever there are some very good posters on the board but they are few.
I also have to admire the commitment you guys have to spend all this time trying to find any stat that shows that a guy who retired 20+ years ago isnt the GOAT, insted of letting Lebrons career achivement do it, shows me all i need to know on the debate.
