How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet?

[dhsilv2]

Using on/off to evaluate a players individual impact is a flawed model as its too heavily influenced by back ups. For example, while in the regular season Jordan, a good rebounder (who only played 56 games last season) but in the playoofs I have no idea who the Nuggets back up C was but it likely was a poor rebounder. It also assumes that if the opposing team secures an offensive rebound that they'll score. This is why trying to "quantify" defensive impact isn't really product, even more so if you aren't using tracking data.

In terms of your post about Jokic's PNR ball hander defense:

Yes , in 23-24, Jokic performed at an elite level on PNR. This year he's among the worse. What changed? Was Jokic the driving force of the Nuggets PNR defense last year, and if so again...what changed. two years ago they had KCP, last year they did not. Maybe that is a contributing factor.

In terms of synergies PNR ball handler metric: In 23-25 he did perform very well in the regular season (as did many of his teammates including MPJ who actually performed better). Great. But as you noted, misrepresented almost, that gets cut in half. No near the midway...below it (80s to around 40 percent, 36 percent in 23). Idk how you can argue that below average is reasonably sound.

I'm glad you can acknowledge atleast that Jokic was a poor defender - this year, but most of his advanced metrics are identical to last year.

I said Jokic was worse in 2025. I didn't say he was poor. I also agree that the on off is flawed, but the alternative was to look at contested rebounds. Remember I'm making every effort to reduce the value of Jokic's defensive impact as the stats tell us he's a great defender. I believe he's an average to slight plus.

The stats clearly do not tell us Jokic is a great defender

I'm not even sure what to say to something like that. I can't debate fantasy.

[DimesandKnicks]

I said Jokic was worse in 2025. I didn't say he was poor. I also agree that the on off is flawed, but the alternative was to look at contested rebounds. Remember I'm making every effort to reduce the value of Jokic's defensive impact as the stats tell us he's a great defender. I believe he's an average to slight plus.

The stats clearly do not tell us Jokic is a great defender

I'm not even sure what to say to something like that. I can't debate fantasy.

You can certainly argue it. If you had an argument, you’d actually highlight the stats. And while we’re weaponizing on/off the Nuggets, the 22nd worst defense in the league last year, was worse with Jokic on the court

[dhsilv2]

The stats clearly do not tell us Jokic is a great defender

I'm not even sure what to say to something like that. I can't debate fantasy.

You can certainly argue it. If you had an argument, you’d actually highlight the stats. And while we’re weaponizing on/off the Nuggets, the 22nd worst defense in the league last year, was worse with Jokic on the court

Nobody is weaponizing things. We know the best data available shows Jokic as a great defender. I've made every good faith effort to walk you through why and pointed out the flaws in Jokic's game that imo lower that value. If you don't like the stats and film breakdowns. I'm not sure what more you want.

[DimesandKnicks]

I'm not even sure what to say to something like that. I can't debate fantasy.

You can certainly argue it. If you had an argument, you’d actually highlight the stats. And while we’re weaponizing on/off the Nuggets, the 22nd worst defense in the league last year, was worse with Jokic on the court

Nobody is weaponizing things. We know the best data available shows Jokic as a great defender. I've made every good faith effort to walk you through why and pointed out the flaws in Jokic's game that imo low that value. If you don't like the stats and film breakdowns. I'm not sure what more you want.

What data?

[dhsilv2]

You can certainly argue it. If you had an argument, you’d actually highlight the stats. And while we’re weaponizing on/off the Nuggets, the 22nd worst defense in the league last year, was worse with Jokic on the court

Nobody is weaponizing things. We know the best data available shows Jokic as a great defender. I've made every good faith effort to walk you through why and pointed out the flaws in Jokic's game that imo low that value. If you don't like the stats and film breakdowns. I'm not sure what more you want.

What data?

We' gone over this to the point of absurdity. I did think this post pretty much ended the argument in my favor though.

Yes , in 23-24, Jokic performed at an elite level on PNR. This year he's among the worse. What changed? Was Jokic the driving force of the Nuggets PNR defense last year, and if so again...what changed. two years ago they had KCP, last year they did not. Maybe that is a contributing factor.

If a guy can be really good with a strong defender and is poor with poor defenders...that player is likely neutral.

[DimesandKnicks]

Nobody is weaponizing things. We know the best data available shows Jokic as a great defender. I've made every good faith effort to walk you through why and pointed out the flaws in Jokic's game that imo low that value. If you don't like the stats and film breakdowns. I'm not sure what more you want.

What data?

We' gone over this to the point of absurdity. I did think this post pretty much ended the argument in my favor though.

Yes , in 23-24, Jokic performed at an elite level on PNR. This year he's among the worse. What changed? Was Jokic the driving force of the Nuggets PNR defense last year, and if so again...what changed. two years ago they had KCP, last year they did not. Maybe that is a contributing factor.

If a guy can be really good with a strong defender and is poor with poor defenders...that player is likely neutral.

If it’s DRAPM, yes we’ve gone over it. Its author says Jokic is overrated. If it’s reduced FT rates, he doesn’t reduce FT rates in the playoffs. If it’s his rebounding and steals non of that “offsets” his horrendous measurable tracking stats.

If a guy can be really good with a strong defender and is poor with poor defenders...that player is likely neutral.

lol bro what? If you go from elite to the worst, and his team is better defensively with him off the court, he’s likely a bad defender.

It’s like saying Brunson goes from elite to worse when Mitch is in the PNR vs Kat, than Brunson must be neutral. Lmao, absolutely not.

[dhsilv2]

What data?

We' gone over this to the point of absurdity. I did think this post pretty much ended the argument in my favor though.

Yes , in 23-24, Jokic performed at an elite level on PNR. This year he's among the worse. What changed? Was Jokic the driving force of the Nuggets PNR defense last year, and if so again...what changed. two years ago they had KCP, last year they did not. Maybe that is a contributing factor.

If a guy can be really good with a strong defender and is poor with poor defenders...that player is likely neutral.

If it’s DRAPM, yes we’ve gone over it. Its author says Jokic is overrated. If it’s reduced FT rates, he doesn’t reduce FT rates in the playoffs. If it’s his rebounding and steals non of that “offsets” his horrendous measurable tracking stats.

If a guy can be really good with a strong defender and is poor with poor defenders...that player is likely neutral.

lol bro what? If you go from elite to the worst, and his team is better defensively with him off the court, he’s likely a bad defender.

It’s like saying Brunson goes from elite to worse when Mitch is in the PNR vs Kat, than Brunson must be neutral. Lmao, absolutely not.

By all means, show me where RAPM's creator said that.

But none the less, your arguments have not shown at any point that Jokic is a bad defender.

[Jailblazers7]

I have no problem with Jokic in the 13-15 range but he’s gotta win another title or two to climb any higher.