How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet?

[dhsilv2]

Using on/off to evaluate a players individual impact is a flawed model as its too heavily influenced by back ups. For example, while in the regular season Jordan, a good rebounder (who only played 56 games last season) but in the playoofs I have no idea who the Nuggets back up C was but it likely was a poor rebounder. It also assumes that if the opposing team secures an offensive rebound that they'll score. This is why trying to "quantify" defensive impact isn't really product, even more so if you aren't using tracking data.

In terms of your post about Jokic's PNR ball hander defense:

Yes , in 23-24, Jokic performed at an elite level on PNR. This year he's among the worse. What changed? Was Jokic the driving force of the Nuggets PNR defense last year, and if so again...what changed. two years ago they had KCP, last year they did not. Maybe that is a contributing factor.

In terms of synergies PNR ball handler metric: In 23-25 he did perform very well in the regular season (as did many of his teammates including MPJ who actually performed better). Great. But as you noted, misrepresented almost, that gets cut in half. No near the midway...below it (80s to around 40 percent, 36 percent in 23). Idk how you can argue that below average is reasonably sound.

I'm glad you can acknowledge atleast that Jokic was a poor defender - this year, but most of his advanced metrics are identical to last year.

I said Jokic was worse in 2025. I didn't say he was poor. I also agree that the on off is flawed, but the alternative was to look at contested rebounds. Remember I'm making every effort to reduce the value of Jokic's defensive impact as the stats tell us he's a great defender. I believe he's an average to slight plus.

The stats clearly do not tell us Jokic is a great defender

I'm not even sure what to say to something like that. I can't debate fantasy.

[DimesandKnicks]

I said Jokic was worse in 2025. I didn't say he was poor. I also agree that the on off is flawed, but the alternative was to look at contested rebounds. Remember I'm making every effort to reduce the value of Jokic's defensive impact as the stats tell us he's a great defender. I believe he's an average to slight plus.

The stats clearly do not tell us Jokic is a great defender

I'm not even sure what to say to something like that. I can't debate fantasy.

You can certainly argue it. If you had an argument, you’d actually highlight the stats. And while we’re weaponizing on/off the Nuggets, the 22nd worst defense in the league last year, was worse with Jokic on the court

[dhsilv2]

The stats clearly do not tell us Jokic is a great defender

I'm not even sure what to say to something like that. I can't debate fantasy.

You can certainly argue it. If you had an argument, you’d actually highlight the stats. And while we’re weaponizing on/off the Nuggets, the 22nd worst defense in the league last year, was worse with Jokic on the court

Nobody is weaponizing things. We know the best data available shows Jokic as a great defender. I've made every good faith effort to walk you through why and pointed out the flaws in Jokic's game that imo lower that value. If you don't like the stats and film breakdowns. I'm not sure what more you want.

[DimesandKnicks]

I'm not even sure what to say to something like that. I can't debate fantasy.

You can certainly argue it. If you had an argument, you’d actually highlight the stats. And while we’re weaponizing on/off the Nuggets, the 22nd worst defense in the league last year, was worse with Jokic on the court

Nobody is weaponizing things. We know the best data available shows Jokic as a great defender. I've made every good faith effort to walk you through why and pointed out the flaws in Jokic's game that imo low that value. If you don't like the stats and film breakdowns. I'm not sure what more you want.

What data?

[dhsilv2]

You can certainly argue it. If you had an argument, you’d actually highlight the stats. And while we’re weaponizing on/off the Nuggets, the 22nd worst defense in the league last year, was worse with Jokic on the court

Nobody is weaponizing things. We know the best data available shows Jokic as a great defender. I've made every good faith effort to walk you through why and pointed out the flaws in Jokic's game that imo low that value. If you don't like the stats and film breakdowns. I'm not sure what more you want.

What data?

We' gone over this to the point of absurdity. I did think this post pretty much ended the argument in my favor though.

Yes , in 23-24, Jokic performed at an elite level on PNR. This year he's among the worse. What changed? Was Jokic the driving force of the Nuggets PNR defense last year, and if so again...what changed. two years ago they had KCP, last year they did not. Maybe that is a contributing factor.

If a guy can be really good with a strong defender and is poor with poor defenders...that player is likely neutral.

[DimesandKnicks]

Nobody is weaponizing things. We know the best data available shows Jokic as a great defender. I've made every good faith effort to walk you through why and pointed out the flaws in Jokic's game that imo low that value. If you don't like the stats and film breakdowns. I'm not sure what more you want.

What data?

We' gone over this to the point of absurdity. I did think this post pretty much ended the argument in my favor though.

Yes , in 23-24, Jokic performed at an elite level on PNR. This year he's among the worse. What changed? Was Jokic the driving force of the Nuggets PNR defense last year, and if so again...what changed. two years ago they had KCP, last year they did not. Maybe that is a contributing factor.

If a guy can be really good with a strong defender and is poor with poor defenders...that player is likely neutral.

If it’s DRAPM, yes we’ve gone over it. Its author says Jokic is overrated. If it’s reduced FT rates, he doesn’t reduce FT rates in the playoffs. If it’s his rebounding and steals non of that “offsets” his horrendous measurable tracking stats.

If a guy can be really good with a strong defender and is poor with poor defenders...that player is likely neutral.

lol bro what? If you go from elite to the worst, and his team is better defensively with him off the court, he’s likely a bad defender.

It’s like saying Brunson goes from elite to worse when Mitch is in the PNR vs Kat, than Brunson must be neutral. Lmao, absolutely not.

[dhsilv2]

What data?

We' gone over this to the point of absurdity. I did think this post pretty much ended the argument in my favor though.

Yes , in 23-24, Jokic performed at an elite level on PNR. This year he's among the worse. What changed? Was Jokic the driving force of the Nuggets PNR defense last year, and if so again...what changed. two years ago they had KCP, last year they did not. Maybe that is a contributing factor.

If a guy can be really good with a strong defender and is poor with poor defenders...that player is likely neutral.

If it’s DRAPM, yes we’ve gone over it. Its author says Jokic is overrated. If it’s reduced FT rates, he doesn’t reduce FT rates in the playoffs. If it’s his rebounding and steals non of that “offsets” his horrendous measurable tracking stats.

If a guy can be really good with a strong defender and is poor with poor defenders...that player is likely neutral.

lol bro what? If you go from elite to the worst, and his team is better defensively with him off the court, he’s likely a bad defender.

It’s like saying Brunson goes from elite to worse when Mitch is in the PNR vs Kat, than Brunson must be neutral. Lmao, absolutely not.

By all means, show me where RAPM's creator said that.

But none the less, your arguments have not shown at any point that Jokic is a bad defender.

[Jailblazers7]

I have no problem with Jokic in the 13-15 range but he’s gotta win another title or two to climb any higher.

[DimesandKnicks]

We' gone over this to the point of absurdity. I did think this post pretty much ended the argument in my favor though.



If a guy can be really good with a strong defender and is poor with poor defenders...that player is likely neutral.

If it’s DRAPM, yes we’ve gone over it. Its author says Jokic is overrated. If it’s reduced FT rates, he doesn’t reduce FT rates in the playoffs. If it’s his rebounding and steals non of that “offsets” his horrendous measurable tracking stats.

If a guy can be really good with a strong defender and is poor with poor defenders...that player is likely neutral.

lol bro what? If you go from elite to the worst, and his team is better defensively with him off the court, he’s likely a bad defender.

It’s like saying Brunson goes from elite to worse when Mitch is in the PNR vs Kat, than Brunson must be neutral. Lmao, absolutely not.

By all means, show me where RAPM's creator said that.

But none the less, your arguments have not shown at any point that Jokic is a bad defender.

I mean, I could - but what's the point? You seem married to your ideas.

My arguments have shown, empirically and objectively that Jokic is infact a poor "shot" and "help" defender (I'm sure you'd attempt to argue the latter but your own your own/ you've already agreed to the former. And to me, being a bad "shot defender" and help defender makes someone a bad defender.

Your argument is, no, defense is more than "shot" defense and their are aspects of his help defense/rebounding/reduced foul rates (already debunk this) that offsets his many defensive short comings that make him a plus defender (again despite the Nuggets being a better team defensively with him off the court last season).

So the burden is on you and you've done nothing to "quantify" this "offset" with data outside of outsourcing that quantification to jeremias engelmann, who says his metric overrates Jokic (you can look up his name SPOXX and Jokic, ironically the interview was posted on Realgm and you commented on the post), and ballparking that his rebounding and steals saves his team 2.6 points.

Ok, Jokic gives up 9.6 ppg at the rim alone. Where is the additional seven points coming from that offsets his poor rim protection alone?

[Top10alltime]

Who actually here DOES have Jokic top 15?

[BelgradeNugget]

Paradox of Jokic's defense and how to quantify it.

1. We all have eyes, we can see he is not giving much effort on defense. His rim defense has been bad. We have numbers to prove it. Players are scoring with ease on Nuggets at the rim, in the paint...but

2. Here is DEFRTG of Nuggats rotation players

2 Aaron Gordon 105.9
3 Nikola Jokić 109.5
4 Christian Braun 110.2
5 Tim Hardaway Jr. 113.4
6 Jamal Murray 114.7
7 Bruce Brown 115.3
8 Cameron Johnson 115.5
13 Peyton Watson 125.2
14 Jonas Valančiūnas 126.7

Nuggets as a team have DEFRTG of 115.7 which means they are defending much better (-6.2 pts per 100) with him on the court. That was the case almost every year of his career. They are 19th best defense now, but if the rest of team defended on his level (109.5) they would heve been 7th best defense in the league.

So maybe, knowing other teams plays, positioning, reading defense (BBIQ) is also important, but less visible parts of defense. Who knows...

[DimesandKnicks]

Paradox of Jokic's defense and how to quantify it.

1. We all have eyes, we can see he is not giving much effort on defense. His rim defense has been bad. We have numbers to prove it. Players are scoring with ease on Nuggets at the rim, in the paint...but

2. Here is DEFRTG of Nuggats rotation players

2 Aaron Gordon 105.9
3 Nikola Jokić 109.5
4 Christian Braun 110.2
5 Tim Hardaway Jr. 113.4
6 Jamal Murray 114.7
7 Bruce Brown 115.3
8 Cameron Johnson 115.5
13 Peyton Watson 125.2
14 Jonas Valančiūnas 126.7

Nuggets as a team have DEFRTG of 115.7 which means they are defending much better (-6.2 pts per 100) with him on the court. That was the case almost every year of his career. They are 19th best defense now, but if the rest of team defended on his level (109.5) they would heve been 7th best defense in the league.

So maybe, knowing other teams plays, positioning, reading defense (BBIQ) is also important, but less visible parts of defense. Who knows...

No argument here that it’s also important. Simply arguing that those things in no way make up for his deficiencies.

And we’re only like three games into the season. What’s more, making the argument that a team is better defensively w X player, while that team is still among the worst defenses in the league isn’t much of an argument for relative impact across the league.

[prime1time]

Jokic struggles in the post season. One championship in a weak year and only 2 conference finals. The lack of sustained Post Season success even without the west having truly dominant teams is disappointing.

[Blame Rasho]

Jokic struggles in the post season. One championship in a weak year and only 2 conference finals. The lack of sustained Post Season success even without the west having truly dominant teams is disappointing.

You know, if having a career avg of 27,12 and 7 on over 90 games is struggling vs playoff teams, maybe you sit down in the corner and stare at the wall because that would actually be more constructive than you posting what you just posted.

[prime1time]

Jokic struggles in the post season. One championship in a weak year and only 2 conference finals. The lack of sustained Post Season success even without the west having truly dominant teams is disappointing.

You know, if having a career avg of 27,12 and 7 on over 90 games is struggling vs playoff teams, maybe you sit down in the corner and stare at the wall because that would actually be more constructive than you posting what you just posted.

This is the problem with the modern NBA. Ball dominant players can put up good stats so easily. Look at Austin Reaves. Jokic dominates the ball, controls the offense and puts up good stats. When you say he doesn't win people point to the stats and his teammates. It's a win/win. List every top 15 player. How many of them had more post season wins that Jokic?

MJ - Yes
LBJ - Yes
Kareem - Yes
Hakeem - Yes
Duncan - Yes
Kobe - Yes
Magic - Yes
Shaq - Yes
Bird - Yes
Russell - Yes
Wilt - Yes
Dirk - Yes
KD - Yes
Steph - Yes
Oscar - Yes
Robinson - Yes
Garnett - Yes

Garnett played in 6 conference finals. Jokic played in 2. Garnett faced off against LBJ, Shaq/Kobe lakers, Duncan Spurs. What are the year by year explanations as to why Jokic can't make the conference finals in the West? I don't care about stats. I care about winning games in the post season. That's goal of the game. If the question is, "Is Jokic a top 15 stat getter" then yes he is. But at what point did the conversation about top 15 of all time become about stats instead of winning?

And this is the precise problem with Jokic. Jokic's defense is mediocre at best. He takes no pride in stopping his opponents. All his energy is invested in generating gaudy stat lines even if they lose. You can't just focus on the stat lines with Jokic because you're comparing him to other players and specifically big men who served as the defensive anchor for their team. So, on one hand, you bigs that are going all out on the defensive end blocking shots, rotating giving everything have defensively, and on the other hand, you have a guy like Jokic who basically takes defense off in the playoffs.

This is like a con game lol. Get us to focus on the stats so that we ignore his defense. But Jokic's lack of post-season success reveals the truth. A championship in an era where numerous stars got injured and they beat the Miami Heat for the finals. I'm not even talking about winning championships. Why can't he make more Western Conference finals? Which great player/great team is blocking him? Is it unrealistic for me to expect a top 15 player of all time to beat young Anthony Edwards and make it to the WCF In 2023-2024?

[Infinite Llamas]

Jokic struggles in the post season. One championship in a weak year and only 2 conference finals. The lack of sustained Post Season success even without the west having truly dominant teams is disappointing.

You know, if having a career avg of 27,12 and 7 on over 90 games is struggling vs playoff teams, maybe you sit down in the corner and stare at the wall because that would actually be more constructive than you posting what you just posted.

This is the problem with the modern NBA. Ball dominant players can put up good stats so easily. Look at Austin Reaves. Jokic dominates the ball, controls the offense and puts up good stats. When you say he doesn't win people point to the stats and his teammates. It's a win/win. List every top 15 player. How many of them had more post season wins that Jokic?

MJ - Yes
LBJ - Yes
Kareem - Yes
Hakeem - Yes
Duncan - Yes
Kobe - Yes
Magic - Yes
Shaq - Yes
Bird - Yes
Russell - Yes
Wilt - Yes
Dirk - Yes
KD - Yes
Steph - Yes
Oscar - Yes
Robinson - Yes
Garnett - Yes

Garnett played in 6 conference finals. Jokic played in 2. Garnett faced off against LBJ, Shaq/Kobe lakers, Duncan Spurs. What are the year by year explanations as to why Jokic can't make the conference finals in the West? I don't care about stats. I care about winning games in the post season. That's goal of the game. If the question is, "Is Jokic a top 15 stat getter" then yes he is. But at what point did the conversation about top 15 of all time become about stats instead of winning?

And this is the precise problem with Jokic. Jokic's defense is mediocre at best. He takes no pride in stopping his opponents. All his energy is invested in generating gaudy stat lines even if they lose. You can't just focus on the stat lines with Jokic because you're comparing him to other players and specifically big men who served as the defensive anchor for their team. So, on one hand, you bigs that are going all out on the defensive end blocking shots, rotating giving everything have defensively, and on the other hand, you have a guy like Jokic who basically takes defense off in the playoffs.

This is like a con game lol. Get us to focus on the stats so that we ignore his defense. But Jokic's lack of post-season success reveals the truth. A championship in an era where numerous stars got injured and they beat the Miami Heat for the finals. I'm not even talking about winning championships. Why can't he make more Western Conference finals? Which great player/great team is blocking him? Is it unrealistic for me to expect a top 15 player of all time to beat young Anthony Edwards and make it to the WCF In 2023-2024?

Go on and look up how many postseason wins KG had when he was the same age as Jokic now. Dirk was still ringless at the same age. I think the theory is people assume that Jokic will have more postseason wins in the future when they talk about top 15.

[nate33]

Jokic struggles in the post season. One championship in a weak year and only 2 conference finals. The lack of sustained Post Season success even without the west having truly dominant teams is disappointing.

You know, if having a career avg of 27,12 and 7 on over 90 games is struggling vs playoff teams, maybe you sit down in the corner and stare at the wall because that would actually be more constructive than you posting what you just posted.

This is the problem with the modern NBA. Ball dominant players can put up good stats so easily. Look at Austin Reaves. Jokic dominates the ball, controls the offense and puts up good stats. When you say he doesn't win people point to the stats and his teammates. It's a win/win. List every top 15 player. How many of them had more post season wins that Jokic?

MJ - Yes
LBJ - Yes
Kareem - Yes
Hakeem - Yes
Duncan - Yes
Kobe - Yes
Magic - Yes
Shaq - Yes
Bird - Yes
Russell - Yes
Wilt - Yes
Dirk - Yes
KD - Yes
Steph - Yes
Oscar - Yes
Robinson - Yes
Garnett - Yes

Garnett played in 6 conference finals. Jokic played in 2. Garnett faced off against LBJ, Shaq/Kobe lakers, Duncan Spurs. What are the year by year explanations as to why Jokic can't make the conference finals in the West? I don't care about stats. I care about winning games in the post season. That's goal of the game. If the question is, "Is Jokic a top 15 stat getter" then yes he is. But at what point did the conversation about top 15 of all time become about stats instead of winning?

And this is the precise problem with Jokic. Jokic's defense is mediocre at best. He takes no pride in stopping his opponents. All his energy is invested in generating gaudy stat lines even if they lose. You can't just focus on the stat lines with Jokic because you're comparing him to other players and specifically big men who served as the defensive anchor for their team. So, on one hand, you bigs that are going all out on the defensive end blocking shots, rotating giving everything have defensively, and on the other hand, you have a guy like Jokic who basically takes defense off in the playoffs.

This is like a con game lol. Get us to focus on the stats so that we ignore his defense. But Jokic's lack of post-season success reveals the truth. A championship in an era where numerous stars got injured and they beat the Miami Heat for the finals. I'm not even talking about winning championships. Why can't he make more Western Conference finals? Which great player/great team is blocking him? Is it unrealistic for me to expect a top 15 player of all time to beat young Anthony Edwards and make it to the WCF In 2023-2024?

This is just an unbelievably bad take.

First of all, comparing him to other greats, you have to factor years played. Those guys you mentioned all played until they were 35 or older. Jokic was 29 last season. He has had just 7 prime seasons. Jokic also joined a terrible Denver team that never played a single playoff game until Jokic himself became an All-Star and led them there. He didn't get his playoff resume padded while playing alongside other veteran all stars early in his career like Bird and Magic did.

Secondly, I'm glad you mentioned Garnett. He is a good analogy as a guy without any All Star teammates playing in the tougher Western Conference. Garnett had just 17 total playoff wins and made it out of the first round just once in 12 seasons with Minnesota through age 30. Garnett didn't go on his run of playoff success until he was traded to a very weak Eastern Conference while he played alongside 2 or 3 All Stars every year. Jokic is MILES ahead of Garnett's pace.

And trying to characterize him as a weak playoff player is just laughable. The guy has never had an All-Star teammate, yet has a championship, 48 playoff wins, and has either made the Finals or lost to the Western Conference Finalist in 4 of his 7 playoff runs. He is third all time in playoff PER (and 2nd place is Mikan, whose PER is an estimate). He is 4th all time in playoff WS/48. He is 2nd all time in playoff BPM. His playoff averages are 27 points, 12 boards and 8 assists on a .612 TS%.

The fact is, Jokic's Nuggets have typically outperformed in the playoffs relative to their regular season success. Here is how they ranked in the regular season by schedule adjusted point differential compared with how they finished in the playoffs:

2019: ranked 7th by SRS, lost in the 2nd round 4-3 (so, top 8 finish, really top 6 since West is better than East)
2020: ranked 10th by SRS, lost in WCFs 4-1 (so, top 4 finish, really top 3 since West is better than East)
2021: ranked 6th by SRS, lost in the 2nd round 4-3 (so, top 8 finish, really top 6 since West is better than East)
2022: ranked 12th by SRS, lost in the 1st round 4-1. Injuries to Murray and MPJ.
2023: ranked 6th by SRS, won title
2024: ranked 4th by SRS, lost in the 2nd round 4-3 (so, top 8 finish, really top 5 since West is better than East)
2025: ranked 8th by SRS, lost in the 2nd round 4-3 (so, top 8 finish, really top 5 since West is better than East)

[dhsilv2]

If it’s DRAPM, yes we’ve gone over it. Its author says Jokic is overrated. If it’s reduced FT rates, he doesn’t reduce FT rates in the playoffs. If it’s his rebounding and steals non of that “offsets” his horrendous measurable tracking stats.



lol bro what? If you go from elite to the worst, and his team is better defensively with him off the court, he’s likely a bad defender.

It’s like saying Brunson goes from elite to worse when Mitch is in the PNR vs Kat, than Brunson must be neutral. Lmao, absolutely not.

By all means, show me where RAPM's creator said that.

But none the less, your arguments have not shown at any point that Jokic is a bad defender.

I mean, I could - but what's the point? You seem married to your ideas.

My arguments have shown, empirically and objectively that Jokic is infact a poor "shot" and "help" defender (I'm sure you'd attempt to argue the latter but your own your own/ you've already agreed to the former. And to me, being a bad "shot defender" and help defender makes someone a bad defender.

Your argument is, no, defense is more than "shot" defense and their are aspects of his help defense/rebounding/reduced foul rates (already debunk this) that offsets his many defensive short comings that make him a plus defender (again despite the Nuggets being a better team defensively with him off the court last season).

So the burden is on you and you've done nothing to "quantify" this "offset" with data outside of outsourcing that quantification to jeremias engelmann, who says his metric overrates Jokic (you can look up his name SPOXX and Jokic, ironically the interview was posted on Realgm and you commented on the post), and ballparking that his rebounding and steals saves his team 2.6 points.

Ok, Jokic gives up 9.6 ppg at the rim alone. Where is the additional seven points coming from that offsets his poor rim protection alone?

Yes, we have been going back and fourth on where defense most matter which is team defense and you have not shown any evidence here.

And SPOXX and Jokic yields absolutely nothing for me.

[Blame Rasho]

Jokic struggles in the post season. One championship in a weak year and only 2 conference finals. The lack of sustained Post Season success even without the west having truly dominant teams is disappointing.

You know, if having a career avg of 27,12 and 7 on over 90 games is struggling vs playoff teams, maybe you sit down in the corner and stare at the wall because that would actually be more constructive than you posting what you just posted.

This is the problem with the modern NBA. Ball dominant players can put up good stats so easily. Look at Austin Reaves. Jokic dominates the ball, controls the offense and puts up good stats. When you say he doesn't win people point to the stats and his teammates. It's a win/win. List every top 15 player. How many of them had more post season wins that Jokic?

MJ - Yes
LBJ - Yes
Kareem - Yes
Hakeem - Yes
Duncan - Yes
Kobe - Yes
Magic - Yes
Shaq - Yes
Bird - Yes
Russell - Yes
Wilt - Yes
Dirk - Yes
KD - Yes
Steph - Yes
Oscar - Yes
Robinson - Yes
Garnett - Yes

Garnett played in 6 conference finals. Jokic played in 2. Garnett faced off against LBJ, Shaq/Kobe lakers, Duncan Spurs. What are the year by year explanations as to why Jokic can't make the conference finals in the West? I don't care about stats. I care about winning games in the post season. That's goal of the game. If the question is, "Is Jokic a top 15 stat getter" then yes he is. But at what point did the conversation about top 15 of all time become about stats instead of winning?

And this is the precise problem with Jokic. Jokic's defense is mediocre at best. He takes no pride in stopping his opponents. All his energy is invested in generating gaudy stat lines even if they lose. You can't just focus on the stat lines with Jokic because you're comparing him to other players and specifically big men who served as the defensive anchor for their team. So, on one hand, you bigs that are going all out on the defensive end blocking shots, rotating giving everything have defensively, and on the other hand, you have a guy like Jokic who basically takes defense off in the playoffs.

This is like a con game lol. Get us to focus on the stats so that we ignore his defense. But Jokic's lack of post-season success reveals the truth. A championship in an era where numerous stars got injured and they beat the Miami Heat for the finals. I'm not even talking about winning championships. Why can't he make more Western Conference finals? Which great player/great team is blocking him? Is it unrealistic for me to expect a top 15 player of all time to beat young Anthony Edwards and make it to the WCF In 2023-2024?

You just typed all of that and I am going to laugh at you.

Look at Jokic teammates compared to the players you listed. Oh wait you don’t care, so that is why I laugh at your horrible post.

You want to look at KG and his conference finals appearances. He would have never made the playoffs with Jokics teammates.

He didn’t do anything until he went to Boston and played with all nba level players and gasp… he only won 1 title.

How many seasons did KG didn’t get out of the first round or miss the playoffs entirely?

Just say you don’t like Jokic, I can respect that but you choose to talk out of your ass , expect to be laughed at by me.

[DimesandKnicks]

By all means, show me where RAPM's creator said that.

But none the less, your arguments have not shown at any point that Jokic is a bad defender.

I mean, I could - but what's the point? You seem married to your ideas.

My arguments have shown, empirically and objectively that Jokic is infact a poor "shot" and "help" defender (I'm sure you'd attempt to argue the latter but your own your own/ you've already agreed to the former. And to me, being a bad "shot defender" and help defender makes someone a bad defender.

Your argument is, no, defense is more than "shot" defense and their are aspects of his help defense/rebounding/reduced foul rates (already debunk this) that offsets his many defensive short comings that make him a plus defender (again despite the Nuggets being a better team defensively with him off the court last season).

So the burden is on you and you've done nothing to "quantify" this "offset" with data outside of outsourcing that quantification to jeremias engelmann, who says his metric overrates Jokic (you can look up his name SPOXX and Jokic, ironically the interview was posted on Realgm and you commented on the post), and ballparking that his rebounding and steals saves his team 2.6 points.

Ok, Jokic gives up 9.6 ppg at the rim alone. Where is the additional seven points coming from that offsets his poor rim protection alone?

Yes, we have been going back and fourth on where defense most matter which is team defense and you have not shown any evidence here.

And SPOXX and Jokic yields absolutely nothing for me.

Rim protection is team defense. Pnr defense is team defense. Your team being better with you off than on is team defense. In fact everything I put forth impacts team defense. So yes, I have. So again, where is evidence past your ballparked 2.6 ppg saved which doesn’t even offset Jokic’s poor defense. Simple question.

And you need to add Jeremy’s name. As Realgm to your search inquiry, that may be fruitful.