What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[OhayoKD]

There wasn't any decent data in this thread when that was posted, actually provoking people to lift their game is necessary sometimes.

And the average person is influenced by the marketed narrative. If I want to have a good understanding of a topic I'm not asking the average population that has seen snippets of info on the topic, I'm asking people who have written extensively on the topic. In this case the topic is ranking players and you want find any better expertise than those on the PC board completing ranking projects over there. They've been doing it for years.

When people post stuff like this

BPM
Jordan 9.21
James 8.76

You guys just ignore data like this and other metrics/achievements. There is a ton of stuff posted favoring Jordan over James but you always say “PC board” bro give it a break. Of course there is some data backing James. But there is a ton of data backing Jordan too. Why is the data favoring James more meaningful than the data backing Jordan? And dont tell people that they cant remember how great Jordan was with the Bulls. Why does this bother you so much lol? James had a chance at a 3 peat and he blew it. Jordan did this twice in the 90s..

Start enumerating all the numbers in favor of Curry over on the PC board and feel the temperature drop. They cannot exactly argue against the facts so they'll just censor instead. That's why it's an echo chamber over there. No one should be citing that groupthink forum except as an example of navel gazing on the internet.

Really? What I think happened is that the "numbers" people push for Steph turned out to strongly favor Lebron:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=106319069#p106319069
The "numbers" people are posting for Jordan are box-score aggregates with arbitrary weightings that only track the ends of possessions.

Here's the thing. If we shift the weightings...
https://web.archive.org/web/20150206043605/http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1996.html
(Jordan not top 3!!!!)

What ceiling raising is asking for is presumably data that ties to "making teams win more", and there, Jordan looks more like a peer of Magic and Hakeem than a big era-outlier:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107218620#p107218620

In some ways he stands out more during the second-three peat than his supposed "peak" which makes the --assumption-- that something like RAPM would prefer him during the first-three peat somewhat questionable,

[Taj FTW]

21 pages in two days?

I don't see any data-driven arguments in this thread, really. I prefer Jordan's game to LeBron's, but was wondering what's out there data-wise.

Lol are you kidding?

Carer BPM
Jordan 9.21
James 8.76

Career PER
Jordan 27.9
James 27.2

Jordan has a higher regular season winning percentage

Jordan has a higher playoffs winning percentage

What do you think you are missing? Twyzted posted more data driven stuff on here just a couple post up. If i dont want to acknowledge something i just ignore it too though.

You've convinced me even more that it is LeBron. Their averaged stats are so damn close, then you factor in how many more games LeBron has played than MJ (1,421 vs 1,072). And that's not even counting playoff games. They're both giving you GOAT production, James is just doing it in far more games.

[Marrrcuss]

kyrie, kevin love. anthony davis.

Yea, AD greeted Bron at Staples when he signed with LA....

Edit: Love was in Cleveland to welcome the king, as well.

what does it matter if they were there when he got there or not? the point is jordan played 15 season and won 6 rings. lebron played 20 and has 4. the poster was saying jordan didn't win without pippen. lebron also didn't win without wade/chris bosh/kyrie/kevin love/anthony davis.

who cares if they went to the team after or before?

The truth cares. That's my point.

People want to lie and say he was traded to teams with AD and Love and they weren't already there.
I dislike liars and people who stretch the truth to sully someone's image but it's an American past time.

[OhayoKD]

21 pages in two days?

I don't see any data-driven arguments in this thread, really. I prefer Jordan's game to LeBron's, but was wondering what's out there data-wise.

Lol are you kidding?

Carer BPM
Jordan 9.21
James 8.76

Career PER
Jordan 27.9
James 27.2

Jordan has a higher regular season winning percentage

Jordan has a higher playoffs winning percentage

What do you think you are missing? Twyzted posted more data driven stuff on here just a couple post up. If i dont want to acknowledge something i just ignore it too though.

You've convinced me even more that it is LeBron. Their averaged stats are so damn close, then you factor in how many more games LeBron has played than MJ (1,421 vs 1,072). And that's not even counting playoff games. They're both giving you GOAT production, James is just doing it in far more games.

Lebron has a general edge over these aggregates in the postseason fwiw(gap depends on if you average the best years ot go consecutive). Wouldn't put too much stock either way

[twyzted]

Lol are you kidding?

Carer BPM
Jordan 9.21
James 8.76

Career PER
Jordan 27.9
James 27.2

Jordan has a higher regular season winning percentage

Jordan has a higher playoffs winning percentage

What do you think you are missing? Twyzted posted more data driven stuff on here just a couple post up. If i dont want to acknowledge something i just ignore it too though.

You've convinced me even more that it is LeBron. Their averaged stats are so damn close, then you factor in how many more games LeBron has played than MJ (1,421 vs 1,072). And that's not even counting playoff games. They're both giving you GOAT production, James is just doing it in far more games.

Lebron has a general edge over these aggregates in the postseason fwiw(gap depends on if you average the best years ot go consecutive). Wouldn't put too much stock either way

No thats just not correct.

Jordan has the edge in all advanced metrics that isnt dependant on longevity except dpm in playoffs.

Regular Season

Michael Jordan PER 27.9 - ts% .569 - tov% 9.3 - usg% 33.3 - ows 149.9 - dws 64.1 - ws 214.0 - ws/48 .250 - obpm 7.2 - dbpm 2.0 - bpm 9.2 - VORP 116.1.

Lebron James PER 27.2 - ts% .588 - tov% 13.1 - usg% 31.6 - ows 177.1 - dws 78.0 - ws 255.1 - ws/48 .226 - obpm 7.0 - dbpm 1.8 - bpm 8.8 - VORP 146.6.

playoffs
Michael Jordan PER 28.6 - TS% .568 - TOV% 9.4 - USG% 35.6 - ows 27.3 - dws 12.4 - ws 39.8 - ws/48 .255 obpm 8.8 - dbpm 2.3 - bpm 11.1 - VORP 24.7

LeBron James PER 27.9 - ts%.583 - TOV% 12.9 - usg% 31.8 - ows 39.4 - dws 18.4 - ws 57.9 - ws/48 .238 - obpm 7.5 - dbpm 2.5 - bpm 10.0 - VORP 35.4

Jordan was also better defender
Jordan has career rDRTG of 54,7 an avg -4,2.
Lebron has career rDRTG of 60,5 an avg -3,5. (From 03-20)

Jordan has career dPIPM of 0,98.
Lebron has career dPIPM of 0,86. (From 03-20)

His team have better rs and playoffs records.
He won more.
Lead better teams.
Better in everything outside of assists.

So at best Lebron is nr2, kareem has quite a good case over him.

[InsideInfo]

Jordan was at the time:

The best offensive player in the league
One of the best defensive players in the league
The most clutch player in the league
Best back to the basket player
Best mid range game
Best finisher in the game

He climbed the NBA mountain and walked away as the GOAT in 1993. The younger generation doesn't realize that Jordan has GOAT status BEFORE the second 3 peat.

He then came back and did it again.

It's truly not even a serious conversation to suggest anyone else is the GOAT.

[OhayoKD]

You've convinced me even more that it is LeBron. Their averaged stats are so damn close, then you factor in how many more games LeBron has played than MJ (1,421 vs 1,072). And that's not even counting playoff games. They're both giving you GOAT production, James is just doing it in far more games.

Lebron has a general edge over these aggregates in the postseason fwiw(gap depends on if you average the best years ot go consecutive). Wouldn't put too much stock either way

No thats just not correct.

Jordan has the edge in all advanced metrics that isnt dependant on longevity except dpm in playoffs.

Regular Season

Michael Jordan PER 27.9 - ts% .569 - tov% 9.3 - usg% 33.3 - ows 149.9 - dws 64.1 - ws 214.0 - ws/48 .250 - obpm 7.2 - dbpm 2.0 - bpm 9.2 - VORP 116.1.

Lebron James PER 27.2 - ts% .588 - tov% 13.1 - usg% 31.6 - ows 177.1 - dws 78.0 - ws 255.1 - ws/48 .226 - obpm 7.0 - dbpm 1.8 - bpm 8.8 - VORP 146.6.

playoffs
Michael Jordan PER 28.6 - TS% .568 - TOV% 9.4 - USG% 35.6 - ows 27.3 - dws 12.4 - ws 39.8 - ws/48 .255 obpm 8.8 - dbpm 2.3 - bpm 11.1 - VORP 24.7

LeBron James PER 27.9 - ts%.583 - TOV% 12.9 - usg% 31.8 - ows 39.4 - dws 18.4 - ws 57.9 - ws/48 .238 - obpm 7.5 - dbpm 2.5 - bpm 10.0 - VORP 35.4

Now I know you're not using a career average for a guy who played longer vs one who played less...

Jordan was also better defender
Jordan has career rDRTG of 54,7 an avg -4,2.
Lebron has career rDRTG of 60,5 an avg -3,5. (From 03-20)

Jordan has career dPIPM of 0,98.
Lebron has career dPIPM of 0,86. (From 03-20)

By a metric based on block and steal accumulation? Perhaps.

In the real-world Jordan's team was unaffected by his defensive depature, In the real world Lebrons' teams have consistently collapsed on that end without him. In the real-world the Bulls were defensively average or below average save for one-year with oakley where that defense collapsed in the playoffs and then turned elite with...Pippen and Grant.

But reality isn't for everyone I guess

[Taj FTW]

You've convinced me even more that it is LeBron. Their averaged stats are so damn close, then you factor in how many more games LeBron has played than MJ (1,421 vs 1,072). And that's not even counting playoff games. They're both giving you GOAT production, James is just doing it in far more games.

Lebron has a general edge over these aggregates in the postseason fwiw(gap depends on if you average the best years ot go consecutive). Wouldn't put too much stock either way

No thats just not correct.

Jordan has the edge in all advanced metrics that isnt dependant on longevity except dpm in playoffs.

Regular Season

Michael Jordan PER 27.9 - ts% .569 - tov% 9.3 - usg% 33.3 - ows 149.9 - dws 64.1 - ws 214.0 - ws/48 .250 - obpm 7.2 - dbpm 2.0 - bpm 9.2 - VORP 116.1.

Lebron James PER 27.2 - ts% .588 - tov% 13.1 - usg% 31.6 - ows 177.1 - dws 78.0 - ws 255.1 - ws/48 .226 - obpm 7.0 - dbpm 1.8 - bpm 8.8 - VORP 146.6.

playoffs
Michael Jordan PER 28.6 - TS% .568 - TOV% 9.4 - USG% 35.6 - ows 27.3 - dws 12.4 - ws 39.8 - ws/48 .255 obpm 8.8 - dbpm 2.3 - bpm 11.1 - VORP 24.7

LeBron James PER 27.9 - ts%.583 - TOV% 12.9 - usg% 31.8 - ows 39.4 - dws 18.4 - ws 57.9 - ws/48 .238 - obpm 7.5 - dbpm 2.5 - bpm 10.0 - VORP 35.4

Jordan was also better defender
Jordan has career rDRTG of 54,7 an avg -4,2.
Lebron has career rDRTG of 60,5 an avg -3,5. (From 03-20)

Jordan has career dPIPM of 0,98.
Lebron has career dPIPM of 0,86. (From 03-20)

His team have better rs and playoffs records.
He won more.
Lead better teams.
Better in everything outside of assists.

So at best Lebron is nr2, kareem has quite a good case over him.

Lol and Jordan being the superior defender. LeBron is quite easily more versatile due to his size, strength and speed. He carried some of the early Cavs teams harder than MJ ever carried a defense. There was basically no falloff defensively for the Bulls when MJ quit the first team.

[twyzted]

Lebron has a general edge over these aggregates in the postseason fwiw(gap depends on if you average the best years ot go consecutive). Wouldn't put too much stock either way

No thats just not correct.

Jordan has the edge in all advanced metrics that isnt dependant on longevity except dpm in playoffs.

Regular Season

Michael Jordan PER 27.9 - ts% .569 - tov% 9.3 - usg% 33.3 - ows 149.9 - dws 64.1 - ws 214.0 - ws/48 .250 - obpm 7.2 - dbpm 2.0 - bpm 9.2 - VORP 116.1.

Lebron James PER 27.2 - ts% .588 - tov% 13.1 - usg% 31.6 - ows 177.1 - dws 78.0 - ws 255.1 - ws/48 .226 - obpm 7.0 - dbpm 1.8 - bpm 8.8 - VORP 146.6.

playoffs
Michael Jordan PER 28.6 - TS% .568 - TOV% 9.4 - USG% 35.6 - ows 27.3 - dws 12.4 - ws 39.8 - ws/48 .255 obpm 8.8 - dbpm 2.3 - bpm 11.1 - VORP 24.7

LeBron James PER 27.9 - ts%.583 - TOV% 12.9 - usg% 31.8 - ows 39.4 - dws 18.4 - ws 57.9 - ws/48 .238 - obpm 7.5 - dbpm 2.5 - bpm 10.0 - VORP 35.4

Now I know you're not using a career average for a guy who played longer vs one who played less...

I was pretty clear in my post so i take that you have no counter argument. Good to know.

Jordan was also better defender
Jordan has career rDRTG of 54,7 an avg -4,2.
Lebron has career rDRTG of 60,5 an avg -3,5. (From 03-20)

Jordan has career dPIPM of 0,98.
Lebron has career dPIPM of 0,86. (From 03-20)

By a metric based on block and steal accumulation? Perhaps.

In the real-world Jordan's team was unaffected by his defensive depature, In the real world Lebrons' teams have consistently collapsed on that end without him. In the real-world the Bulls were defensively average or below average save for one-year with oakley where that defense collapsed in the playoffs and then turned elite with...Pippen and Grant.

But reality isn't for everyone I guess

No dpipm is defensive Player Impact Plus-Minus is not based on steals or blocks. Lol ofcourse every metric that shows Jordan>Lebron is not good enough.

Right so the bulls jumping from 107.6(11th) to 105.5(3rd) is because of 7th and 8th player in the rotation. Then why did it take until 90/91 to the bulls defense to “elite”?
Can you also explain how the knicks defense got worse by adding Oakley?

Solid argument based entierly on reality.

Using the Lebron left a team and said team decided to blow it up outside of miami as a proof that Lebron is a better defender is a weak argument.

[twyzted]

Lebron has a general edge over these aggregates in the postseason fwiw(gap depends on if you average the best years ot go consecutive). Wouldn't put too much stock either way

No thats just not correct.

Jordan has the edge in all advanced metrics that isnt dependant on longevity except dpm in playoffs.

Regular Season

Michael Jordan PER 27.9 - ts% .569 - tov% 9.3 - usg% 33.3 - ows 149.9 - dws 64.1 - ws 214.0 - ws/48 .250 - obpm 7.2 - dbpm 2.0 - bpm 9.2 - VORP 116.1.

Lebron James PER 27.2 - ts% .588 - tov% 13.1 - usg% 31.6 - ows 177.1 - dws 78.0 - ws 255.1 - ws/48 .226 - obpm 7.0 - dbpm 1.8 - bpm 8.8 - VORP 146.6.

playoffs
Michael Jordan PER 28.6 - TS% .568 - TOV% 9.4 - USG% 35.6 - ows 27.3 - dws 12.4 - ws 39.8 - ws/48 .255 obpm 8.8 - dbpm 2.3 - bpm 11.1 - VORP 24.7

LeBron James PER 27.9 - ts%.583 - TOV% 12.9 - usg% 31.8 - ows 39.4 - dws 18.4 - ws 57.9 - ws/48 .238 - obpm 7.5 - dbpm 2.5 - bpm 10.0 - VORP 35.4

Jordan was also better defender
Jordan has career rDRTG of 54,7 an avg -4,2.
Lebron has career rDRTG of 60,5 an avg -3,5. (From 03-20)

Jordan has career dPIPM of 0,98.
Lebron has career dPIPM of 0,86. (From 03-20)

His team have better rs and playoffs records.
He won more.
Lead better teams.
Better in everything outside of assists.

So at best Lebron is nr2, kareem has quite a good case over him.

Lol and Jordan being the superior defender. LeBron is quite easily more versatile due to his size, strength and speed. He carried some of the early Cavs teams harder than MJ ever carried a defense. There was basically no falloff defensively for the Bulls when MJ quit the first team.

i posted stats which prove that Jordan is a better defender, so you can lol all you want it wont change anything kid.

[MavsDirk41]

Lebron has a general edge over these aggregates in the postseason fwiw(gap depends on if you average the best years ot go consecutive). Wouldn't put too much stock either way

No thats just not correct.

Jordan has the edge in all advanced metrics that isnt dependant on longevity except dpm in playoffs.

Regular Season

Michael Jordan PER 27.9 - ts% .569 - tov% 9.3 - usg% 33.3 - ows 149.9 - dws 64.1 - ws 214.0 - ws/48 .250 - obpm 7.2 - dbpm 2.0 - bpm 9.2 - VORP 116.1.

Lebron James PER 27.2 - ts% .588 - tov% 13.1 - usg% 31.6 - ows 177.1 - dws 78.0 - ws 255.1 - ws/48 .226 - obpm 7.0 - dbpm 1.8 - bpm 8.8 - VORP 146.6.

playoffs
Michael Jordan PER 28.6 - TS% .568 - TOV% 9.4 - USG% 35.6 - ows 27.3 - dws 12.4 - ws 39.8 - ws/48 .255 obpm 8.8 - dbpm 2.3 - bpm 11.1 - VORP 24.7

LeBron James PER 27.9 - ts%.583 - TOV% 12.9 - usg% 31.8 - ows 39.4 - dws 18.4 - ws 57.9 - ws/48 .238 - obpm 7.5 - dbpm 2.5 - bpm 10.0 - VORP 35.4

Now I know you're not using a career average for a guy who played longer vs one who played less...

Jordan was also better defender
Jordan has career rDRTG of 54,7 an avg -4,2.
Lebron has career rDRTG of 60,5 an avg -3,5. (From 03-20)

Jordan has career dPIPM of 0,98.
Lebron has career dPIPM of 0,86. (From 03-20)

By a metric based on block and steal accumulation? Perhaps.

In the real-world Jordan's team was unaffected by his defensive depature, In the real world Lebrons' teams have consistently collapsed on that end without him. In the real-world the Bulls were defensively average or below average save for one-year with oakley where that defense collapsed in the playoffs and then turned elite with...Pippen and Grant.

But reality isn't for everyone I guess

Hey Ohayo where is that stat where you said Pippen averaged 22 points a game in his career without Jordan?

[MavsDirk41]

Lebron has a general edge over these aggregates in the postseason fwiw(gap depends on if you average the best years ot go consecutive). Wouldn't put too much stock either way

No thats just not correct.

Jordan has the edge in all advanced metrics that isnt dependant on longevity except dpm in playoffs.

Regular Season

Michael Jordan PER 27.9 - ts% .569 - tov% 9.3 - usg% 33.3 - ows 149.9 - dws 64.1 - ws 214.0 - ws/48 .250 - obpm 7.2 - dbpm 2.0 - bpm 9.2 - VORP 116.1.

Lebron James PER 27.2 - ts% .588 - tov% 13.1 - usg% 31.6 - ows 177.1 - dws 78.0 - ws 255.1 - ws/48 .226 - obpm 7.0 - dbpm 1.8 - bpm 8.8 - VORP 146.6.

playoffs
Michael Jordan PER 28.6 - TS% .568 - TOV% 9.4 - USG% 35.6 - ows 27.3 - dws 12.4 - ws 39.8 - ws/48 .255 obpm 8.8 - dbpm 2.3 - bpm 11.1 - VORP 24.7

LeBron James PER 27.9 - ts%.583 - TOV% 12.9 - usg% 31.8 - ows 39.4 - dws 18.4 - ws 57.9 - ws/48 .238 - obpm 7.5 - dbpm 2.5 - bpm 10.0 - VORP 35.4

Jordan was also better defender
Jordan has career rDRTG of 54,7 an avg -4,2.
Lebron has career rDRTG of 60,5 an avg -3,5. (From 03-20)

Jordan has career dPIPM of 0,98.
Lebron has career dPIPM of 0,86. (From 03-20)

His team have better rs and playoffs records.
He won more.
Lead better teams.
Better in everything outside of assists.

So at best Lebron is nr2, kareem has quite a good case over him.

Lol and Jordan being the superior defender. LeBron is quite easily more versatile due to his size, strength and speed. He carried some of the early Cavs teams harder than MJ ever carried a defense. There was basically no falloff defensively for the Bulls when MJ quit the first team.

So quitting Cleveland in 2010, quitting Miami in 2014, quitting Cleveland again in 2018 is ok cause james did it. But retiring is bad bad bad. Can you exlain this?

And just stop with the defensive argument. You always say this but you have no proof whatsoever. Jordan was the better defender and has the hardware to back it up. James relied on Davis, Bosh, and the Birdman to protect the paint.

[Taj FTW]

No thats just not correct.

Jordan has the edge in all advanced metrics that isnt dependant on longevity except dpm in playoffs.

Regular Season

Michael Jordan PER 27.9 - ts% .569 - tov% 9.3 - usg% 33.3 - ows 149.9 - dws 64.1 - ws 214.0 - ws/48 .250 - obpm 7.2 - dbpm 2.0 - bpm 9.2 - VORP 116.1.

Lebron James PER 27.2 - ts% .588 - tov% 13.1 - usg% 31.6 - ows 177.1 - dws 78.0 - ws 255.1 - ws/48 .226 - obpm 7.0 - dbpm 1.8 - bpm 8.8 - VORP 146.6.

playoffs
Michael Jordan PER 28.6 - TS% .568 - TOV% 9.4 - USG% 35.6 - ows 27.3 - dws 12.4 - ws 39.8 - ws/48 .255 obpm 8.8 - dbpm 2.3 - bpm 11.1 - VORP 24.7

LeBron James PER 27.9 - ts%.583 - TOV% 12.9 - usg% 31.8 - ows 39.4 - dws 18.4 - ws 57.9 - ws/48 .238 - obpm 7.5 - dbpm 2.5 - bpm 10.0 - VORP 35.4

Jordan was also better defender
Jordan has career rDRTG of 54,7 an avg -4,2.
Lebron has career rDRTG of 60,5 an avg -3,5. (From 03-20)

Jordan has career dPIPM of 0,98.
Lebron has career dPIPM of 0,86. (From 03-20)

His team have better rs and playoffs records.
He won more.
Lead better teams.
Better in everything outside of assists.

So at best Lebron is nr2, kareem has quite a good case over him.

Lol and Jordan being the superior defender. LeBron is quite easily more versatile due to his size, strength and speed. He carried some of the early Cavs teams harder than MJ ever carried a defense. There was basically no falloff defensively for the Bulls when MJ quit the first team.

So quitting Cleveland in 2010, quitting Miami in 2014, quitting Cleveland again in 2018 is ok cause james did it. But retiring is bad bad bad. Can you exlain this?

And just stop with the defensive argument. You always say this but you have no proof whatsoever. Jordan was the better defender and has the hardware to back it up. James relied on Davis, Bosh, and the Birdman to protect the paint.

LeBron switched teams. But I get it. You would prefer if players would refer to their owners as masters and not have the ability to choose where they play. You've made this abundantly clear many times. MJ quite literally quit the league for 1.5 years. I don't know why reality upset you. I never said it was a bad thing. He can quit/retire whenver he wants. That's just what he did.

Warning: Dial back the baiting and general hostility. The other poster said nothing about "masters" and you're attacking him based on words you're putting in his mouth. Which isn't cool at all so please stop doing that. -b

[MavsDirk41]

Lol and Jordan being the superior defender. LeBron is quite easily more versatile due to his size, strength and speed. He carried some of the early Cavs teams harder than MJ ever carried a defense. There was basically no falloff defensively for the Bulls when MJ quit the first team.

So quitting Cleveland in 2010, quitting Miami in 2014, quitting Cleveland again in 2018 is ok cause james did it. But retiring is bad bad bad. Can you exlain this?

And just stop with the defensive argument. You always say this but you have no proof whatsoever. Jordan was the better defender and has the hardware to back it up. James relied on Davis, Bosh, and the Birdman to protect the paint.

LeBron switched teams. But I get it. You would prefer if players would refer to their owners as masters and not have the ability to choose where they play. You've made this abundantly clear many times. MJ quite literally quit the league for 1.5 years. I don't know why reality upset you. I never said it was a bad thing. He can quit/retire whenver he wants. That's just what he did.

Lol just stop man that is beyond comical. Reality is leaving your team is quitting that organization. Just embarrassing man.

[binjumper]

So quitting Cleveland in 2010, quitting Miami in 2014, quitting Cleveland again in 2018 is ok cause james did it. But retiring is bad bad bad. Can you exlain this?

And just stop with the defensive argument. You always say this but you have no proof whatsoever. Jordan was the better defender and has the hardware to back it up. James relied on Davis, Bosh, and the Birdman to protect the paint.

LeBron switched teams. But I get it. You would prefer if players would refer to their owners as masters and not have the ability to choose where they play. You've made this abundantly clear many times. MJ quite literally quit the league for 1.5 years. I don't know why reality upset you. I never said it was a bad thing. He can quit/retire whenver he wants. That's just what he did.

Lol just stop man that is beyond comical. Reality is leaving your team is quitting that organization. Just embarrassing man.

God damn masters paying you hundreds of millions of dollars for not breaching your contract.

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron switched teams. But I get it. You would prefer if players would refer to their owners as masters and not have the ability to choose where they play. You've made this abundantly clear many times. MJ quite literally quit the league for 1.5 years. I don't know why reality upset you. I never said it was a bad thing. He can quit/retire whenver he wants. That's just what he did.

Lol just stop man that is beyond comical. Reality is leaving your team is quitting that organization. Just embarrassing man.

God damn masters paying you hundreds of millions of dollars for not breaching your contract.

Lol yea man seriously! What the heck is that even about lol? If he wants to say Jordan quit ok cool, Jordan did quit, but James bailing on teams multiple times is totally different…

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron switched teams. But I get it. You would prefer if players would refer to their owners as masters and not have the ability to choose where they play. You've made this abundantly clear many times. MJ quite literally quit the league for 1.5 years. I don't know why reality upset you. I never said it was a bad thing. He can quit/retire whenver he wants. That's just what he did.

Lol just stop man that is beyond comical. Reality is leaving your team is quitting that organization. Just embarrassing man.

God damn masters paying you hundreds of millions of dollars for not breaching your contract.

Lol yea man seriously! What the heck is that even about lol? If he wants to say Jordan quit ok cool, Jordan did quit, but James bailing on teams multiple times is totally different…

[DB23]

Lol and Jordan being the superior defender. LeBron is quite easily more versatile due to his size, strength and speed. He carried some of the early Cavs teams harder than MJ ever carried a defense. There was basically no falloff defensively for the Bulls when MJ quit the first team.

So quitting Cleveland in 2010, quitting Miami in 2014, quitting Cleveland again in 2018 is ok cause james did it. But retiring is bad bad bad. Can you exlain this?

And just stop with the defensive argument. You always say this but you have no proof whatsoever. Jordan was the better defender and has the hardware to back it up. James relied on Davis, Bosh, and the Birdman to protect the paint.

LeBron switched teams. But I get it. You would prefer if players would refer to their owners as masters and not have the ability to choose where they play. You've made this abundantly clear many times. MJ quite literally quit the league for 1.5 years. I don't know why reality upset you. I never said it was a bad thing. He can quit/retire whenver he wants. That's just what he did.

You should stick to your data arguments rather than make silly points like above.

Yea it means more to accomplish success with just one team rather than try and take short cuts and stack the deck in your favor.

Honestly I think I wouldn’t be bothered if lebron only moved once but he’s repeatedly stacked the deck and that’s just weak I’m afraid.

[Taj FTW]

So quitting Cleveland in 2010, quitting Miami in 2014, quitting Cleveland again in 2018 is ok cause james did it. But retiring is bad bad bad. Can you exlain this?

And just stop with the defensive argument. You always say this but you have no proof whatsoever. Jordan was the better defender and has the hardware to back it up. James relied on Davis, Bosh, and the Birdman to protect the paint.

LeBron switched teams. But I get it. You would prefer if players would refer to their owners as masters and not have the ability to choose where they play. You've made this abundantly clear many times. MJ quite literally quit the league for 1.5 years. I don't know why reality upset you. I never said it was a bad thing. He can quit/retire whenver he wants. That's just what he did.

You should stick to your data arguments rather than make silly points like above.

Yea it means more to accomplish success with just one team rather than try and take short cuts and stack the deck in your favor.

Honestly I think I wouldn’t be bothered if lebron only moved once but he’s repeatedly stacked the deck and that’s just weak I’m afraid.

Ah yes, "repeatedly". He really stacked the deck joining a 33 win Cavs and a 35 win Lakers. Good points.

[DB23]

LeBron switched teams. But I get it. You would prefer if players would refer to their owners as masters and not have the ability to choose where they play. You've made this abundantly clear many times. MJ quite literally quit the league for 1.5 years. I don't know why reality upset you. I never said it was a bad thing. He can quit/retire whenver he wants. That's just what he did.

You should stick to your data arguments rather than make silly points like above.

Yea it means more to accomplish success with just one team rather than try and take short cuts and stack the deck in your favor.

Honestly I think I wouldn’t be bothered if lebron only moved once but he’s repeatedly stacked the deck and that’s just weak I’m afraid.

Ah yes, "repeatedly". He really stacked the deck joining a 33 win Cavs and a 35 win Lakers. Good points.

That’s what I mean, no need to be dishonest with it. Just own it.

The cavs situation was far better than the heat. And same when he went to the lakers. Quoting prior win numbers when we know he teamed up with kyrie and love is just silly. And the same with AD.

Honestly speaking it discredits the rest of your arguments when you try and post stuff like above.