Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be?

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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#61 » by Luigi » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:44 pm

Blame Rasho wrote:Thanksfully the MAX contract died talked a while back, it was strong last season....

You look at players like Batum, Galanari, and see that the going rate for a decent swing player is around 10 million dollars a year and above.


From another thread:
3960HOOD wrote:Eric Gordon - 4 Years / $58 Mil
Josh Smith - 4 Years / $54 Mil
Andre Iguodala - 4 Years / $48 Mil
Tyreke Evans - 4 Years / $44 Mil
Nicolas Batum - 4 Years / $44 Mil
Thaddeus Young - 5 Years / $43 Mil
Danilo Gallinari - 4 Years / $42 Mil
Gerald Wallace - 4 Years / $40 Mil
Ersan Ilyasova - 5 Years / $40 Mil
Demar DeRozan - 4 Years / $38 Mil
Wilson Chandler - 5 Years / $31 Mil
Marcus Thornton - 4 Years / $31 Mil
Kevin Martin - 4 Years / $27 Mil


A lot of these guys proved more than Hayward did last season before their big payday.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#62 » by FemaleDogPlease » Tue Jul 1, 2014 12:12 am

He will get a max offer.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#63 » by Blame Rasho » Tue Jul 1, 2014 12:41 am

Luigi wrote:
Blame Rasho wrote:Thanksfully the MAX contract died talked a while back, it was strong last season....

You look at players like Batum, Galanari, and see that the going rate for a decent swing player is around 10 million dollars a year and above.


From another thread:
3960HOOD wrote:Eric Gordon - 4 Years / $58 Mil
Josh Smith - 4 Years / $54 Mil
Andre Iguodala - 4 Years / $48 Mil
Tyreke Evans - 4 Years / $44 Mil
Nicolas Batum - 4 Years / $44 Mil
Thaddeus Young - 5 Years / $43 Mil
Danilo Gallinari - 4 Years / $42 Mil
Gerald Wallace - 4 Years / $40 Mil
Ersan Ilyasova - 5 Years / $40 Mil
Demar DeRozan - 4 Years / $38 Mil
Wilson Chandler - 5 Years / $31 Mil
Marcus Thornton - 4 Years / $31 Mil
Kevin Martin - 4 Years / $27 Mil


A lot of these guys proved more than Hayward did last season before their big payday.


I hate when I get quoted and see a typo... arg...

The thing is that players of his ilk are going to get overpaid in my opinion. It is the way I see it. You know that is the going rate for a player who is getting out of his rookie contract. I thought Batum and Gallinari got stupid high offers but some team offered it to them despite their pretty avg stats for their respective position in my opinion.

I said this a while back...

viewtopic.php?p=37183782#p37183782

Blame Rasho wrote:Fans of players like Hayward have an irrational like for him that I just don't get. He reminds me of how Blazer fans think of Batum. Basically giving a contract of over 8 digits says that you have allstar talent night in and night out and honestly I don't he is that type of player. First option? Seriously? He is a 3rd level banana on a great team with two superstars. Honestly if you have him as your 1st or 2nd option, you are going to suck as a team. I know I brought up Batum and he got a massive contract, so maybe that is the going rate for a player of his ilk... but I think giving players like him contracts like that are a recipe for failure. I would feel kinda apprehensive giving that type of money to Kawhi Leonard and he is a much better player than Hayward.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#64 » by Johnlac1 » Tue Jul 1, 2014 1:16 am

I know Hayward was playing on a lousy team, but he's never impressed me that much. He's a decent all-around player but not quite that good, if you know what I mean. A good athlete, not great. Can score, but had some awful shooting games last year. I think he was 1-17 one game. I don't know if anybody else has ever shot that bad.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#65 » by Litany » Tue Jul 1, 2014 1:19 am

Curmudgeon wrote:If Hayward's agent thinks the Jazz are serious about matching any offer, his client may take the QO to get the hell out of Utah in 2015.


Name the last player that was being offered a four year deal that decided to take the QO instead.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#66 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Jul 1, 2014 1:37 am

FemaleDogPlease wrote:He will get a max offer.


And this is Team Building 101 on how you DON'T win NBA championships.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#67 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Jul 1, 2014 1:38 am

Johnlac1 wrote:I know Hayward was playing on a lousy team, but he's never impressed me that much. He's a decent all-around player but not quite that good, if you know what I mean. A good athlete, not great. Can score, but had some awful shooting games last year. I think he was 1-17 one game. I don't know if anybody else has ever shot that bad.


He's solid, like you said, but committing a maximum salary to a guy says you think he's going to be a franchise cornerstone. If that is the case here, your franchise is going to be pretty crappy.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#68 » by FemaleDogPlease » Tue Jul 1, 2014 1:55 am

Sedale Threatt wrote:
FemaleDogPlease wrote:He will get a max offer.


And this is Team Building 101 on how you DON'T win NBA championships.


I didnt say he was worth a max offer.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#69 » by Luigi » Tue Jul 1, 2014 5:11 am

FemaleDogPlease wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:
FemaleDogPlease wrote:He will get a max offer.


And this is Team Building 101 on how you DON'T win NBA championships.


I didnt say he was worth a max offer.


I think the only person who did say that Hayward was worth max was Jody Gennesse. I don't think per sources is applying to anyone here.

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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#70 » by Johnlac1 » Tue Jul 1, 2014 2:57 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:
Johnlac1 wrote:I know Hayward was playing on a lousy team, but he's never impressed me that much. He's a decent all-around player but not quite that good, if you know what I mean. A good athlete, not great. Can score, but had some awful shooting games last year. I think he was 1-17 one game. I don't know if anybody else has ever shot that bad.


He's solid, like you said, but committing a maximum salary to a guy says you think he's going to be a franchise cornerstone. If that is the case here, your franchise is going to be pretty crappy.

Like other posters said, Hayward's a good player, but the third or maybe fourth option on a contender. Do you pay top dollar for that? I don't think so. But he and his agent might feel they have Utah over a barrel. Unless Exum comes out with a spectacular rookie season (unlikely), Hayward will still be their best player over Favors and possibly Kanter or Burke. If he won't accept less than the max, I'd deal him for somebody else and/or picks.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#71 » by NUMBERICA » Tue Jul 1, 2014 3:54 pm

Luigi wrote:
SpinninHouse wrote:If we strike out on Carmelo, I'd offer him 4-years/$40M.

5 Noah
4 Gibson
3 McDermott
2 Hayward
1 Rose

At least we'd have two guys who can shoot the three ball.


Hayward shoots .365 from three for his career.

Last year, without Al Jefferson in the post to get him open looks, he shot .304


Well, kind of. He shot off-the-dribble a lot, which are traditionally not very efficient shots. This brings up the question of why you'd pay a player eight figures to be a spot-up shooter.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#72 » by NUMBERICA » Tue Jul 1, 2014 3:56 pm

Lattimer wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:If Hayward's agent thinks the Jazz are serious about matching any offer, his client may take the QO to get the hell out of Utah in 2015.


Name the last player that was being offered a four year deal that decided to take the QO instead.

Ben Gordon? Of course, he's part of the rule: only a lunatic walks from a huge pile of cash in favor of playing for a fraction of it and risk injury.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#73 » by NUMBERICA » Tue Jul 1, 2014 4:00 pm

Illmatic12 wrote:
SpinninHouse wrote:If we strike out on Carmelo, I'd offer him 4-years/$40M.

5 Noah
4 Gibson
3 McDermott
2 Hayward
1 Rose

At least we'd have two guys who can shoot the three ball.


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Hayward turned down 4/48 from the Jazz last summer, he won't take 4/40

Unless he gets no other offers and isn't a lunatic.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#74 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Jul 1, 2014 4:02 pm

Johnlac1 wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:
Johnlac1 wrote:I know Hayward was playing on a lousy team, but he's never impressed me that much. He's a decent all-around player but not quite that good, if you know what I mean. A good athlete, not great. Can score, but had some awful shooting games last year. I think he was 1-17 one game. I don't know if anybody else has ever shot that bad.


He's solid, like you said, but committing a maximum salary to a guy says you think he's going to be a franchise cornerstone. If that is the case here, your franchise is going to be pretty crappy.

Like other posters said, Hayward's a good player, but the third or maybe fourth option on a contender. Do you pay top dollar for that? I don't think so. But he and his agent might feel they have Utah over a barrel. Unless Exum comes out with a spectacular rookie season (unlikely), Hayward will still be their best player over Favors and possibly Kanter or Burke. If he won't accept less than the max, I'd deal him for somebody else and/or picks.


Well, they can't deal him now. He's a free agent.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#75 » by jazzfan1971 » Tue Jul 1, 2014 5:37 pm

Jazz say they will match any offer. I believe them.

Then again we cheaped out on Wesley Matthews. Didn't really open the pocketbook for Millsap.

And frankly, I liked those two guys better than Hayward.

I dunno.

Maybe one of those mythical sign and trades can be worked out to everyone's satisfaction. (yeah right)

There are an awful lot of free agent dollars chasing a relatively shallow pool of free agents. It is not good for teams like the Jazz trying to retain assets.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#76 » by DiscoLives4ever » Tue Jul 1, 2014 6:05 pm

This isn't about what Hayward is worth necessarily, it's about what the alternatives are.

Suppose the Jazz match a max contract, what have they really lost? Maybe a few million a year in cap space over the next few years? As has been pointed out the team isn't getting any big name free agents, even if they had space. Anybody they do get is likely going to be an overpay as well just to get them to come to a young Utah team. They have plenty of space already, so there isn't really any risk of losing their current young talent when it comes time to extend them.

On the flip side, the Jazz have quite a bit to lose from letting him walk or even getting the crumbs from a sign and trade. Aside from his current production, he still clearly has some sort of potential to improve under a new coach as indicated by the amount of interest he's received already. The Jazz could let him go for nothing and hope that some mythical game changer comes along in the handful of years he actually hinders the the financial flexibility of the team, or they could overpay for him but have the chance (however slim) that he becomes a solid 2nd option.

There's not a lot of reward to signing Hayward to a large contract, but there is even less risk.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#77 » by Luigi » Tue Jul 1, 2014 6:42 pm

DiscoLives4ever wrote:This isn't about what Hayward is worth necessarily, it's about what the alternatives are.

Suppose the Jazz match a max contract, what have they really lost? Maybe a few million a year in cap space over the next few years? As has been pointed out the team isn't getting any big name free agents, even if they had space. Anybody they do get is likely going to be an overpay as well just to get them to come to a young Utah team. They have plenty of space already, so there isn't really any risk of losing their current young talent when it comes time to extend them.

On the flip side, the Jazz have quite a bit to lose from letting him walk or even getting the crumbs from a sign and trade. Aside from his current production, he still clearly has some sort of potential to improve under a new coach as indicated by the amount of interest he's received already. The Jazz could let him go for nothing and hope that some mythical game changer comes along in the handful of years he actually hinders the the financial flexibility of the team, or they could overpay for him but have the chance (however slim) that he becomes a solid 2nd option.

There's not a lot of reward to signing Hayward to a large contract, but there is even less risk.


I think the free agent issue is overestimated. Just because we aren't going to get Lebron James after a season of tanking doesn't mean cap space becomes useless to the Jazz. When we've been in position to become a winner in free agency, we have. Stockton and Malone covered things for decades. We missed on Jermaine Oneal and Corey Magette because we were sure to suck. Once we got things back together, we picked up Boozer and Okur. That kept us up for a while. We shifted to Al Jefferson for a few years, and then decided to blow it up for the first time ever. Of course this period post tank isn't going to attract any help in free agency, not until we show we are a promising up and coming team again. That is the time the Jazz can hope to get some good free agents. We're not going to attract a super star, but at that point we can add guys coming off of rookie deals like Boozer and Okur, as long as we are a good basketball team where they can play a big role in making us better and we can pay them top dollar. I don't know about you, but I want to become a promising young team sometime in the next five years, and I don't want a Hayward anchor getting in the way when that happens.

Besides that, cap space is an asset. We've absorbed expiring contracts and gotten picks which have been vital to our rebuild. The better, but smaller, possibility is picking up a star in a trade where cap space and picks (acquired using cap space) are always key. I'll hope for that homerun instead of watching max Hayward lead us to 11th in the west for a few years.

I think you're also underestimating the risk. We can't set a precedent of paying rookies near max money for being average. If we load up on near max deals for all of these average youngsters we have, we'll end up on the 10-12th in the west treadmill, not even competing for the playoffs. Yes, we can afford to pay them. But why would we pay them that much for being handcuffed into sub 500 basketball? I'll let max Hayward pass, and keep trying on young talent, trades, and free agency until there's something worth the money that we can pick up. This is critical to becoming an up and coming team that becomes desirable to free agents (from your own team and others) and becoming a winning ball club. Exum could give us that opportunity. Burks might impress us this year. Kanter could explode. If none of that happens, I'm happy to let them go, too. This is about building a winning ball club eventually. It's not about getting locked into a losing ball club because we can afford to pay for it.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#78 » by Luigi » Tue Jul 1, 2014 6:44 pm

jazzfan1971 wrote:Jazz say they will match any offer. I believe them.


Do we have any other sources than Jody Genessy for all of this?

He's the only one I've seen, and I don't trust him. I don't think Phoenix is going to offer a max deal, and I don't think the Jazz will match any deal.
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#79 » by LOOSH » Tue Jul 1, 2014 7:35 pm

FemaleDogPlease wrote:He will get a max offer.


Yep
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Re: Gordon Hayward- what will the best offers be? 

Post#80 » by mup » Tue Jul 1, 2014 7:42 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:
FemaleDogPlease wrote:He will get a max offer.


And this is Team Building 101 on how you DON'T win NBA championships.
LOT of teams with cap space this year. Nobody's going to waste their time offering 4/40 or something they know Utah will match. The rule of the game is that you have to overpay RFA. Somebody will get shut out on their 1st and 2nd choices and offer Hayward 4/52. Utah will match.


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