RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

NZB2323 · Post #61 » by **NZB2323** » Thu Jan 23, 2025 12:44 am

michaelm wrote:
NZB2323 wrote:
michaelm wrote:I am actually in full agreement with you on this. Sure a different era and a different NBA then, but in other discussions I have asked what exactly more should or could Bill have done ?.

Having a TS% above 50% would help him in the debate.

Why did he need to have such a TS% ?. If you watch some of his interviews he said he what he decided to do in his career was help his teams/make his teams win, He was rather successful in that endeavour.

He helped his team win, but he played on stacked teams and was a career 56% free throw shooter. Him missing free throws didn’t help his team win.

michaelm · Post #62 » by **michaelm** » Thu Jan 23, 2025 1:05 am

NZB2323 wrote:
michaelm wrote:
NZB2323 wrote:
Having a TS% above 50% would help him in the debate.

Why did he need to have such a TS% ?. If you watch some of his interviews he said he what he decided to do in his career was help his teams/make his teams win, He was rather successful in that endeavour.

He helped his team win, but he played on stacked teams and was a career 56% free throw shooter. Him missing free throws didn’t help his team win.

He fairly clearly didn’t need to make free throws for his team to win. The Celtics also didn’t win the year before he started playing for them, nor the year after he retired, nor the year he missed the play-offs with an injury. I am led to believe he played with an ankle injury the other year. So did he benefit from a stacked team or did his team-mates benefit from being on his team ?.

NZB2323 · Post #63 » by **NZB2323** » Thu Jan 23, 2025 5:59 am

michaelm wrote:
NZB2323 wrote:
michaelm wrote:Why did he need to have such a TS% ?. If you watch some of his interviews he said he what he decided to do in his career was help his teams/make his teams win, He was rather successful in that endeavour.

He helped his team win, but he played on stacked teams and was a career 56% free throw shooter. Him missing free throws didn’t help his team win.

He fairly clearly didn’t need to make free throws for his team to win. The Celtics also didn’t win the year before he started playing for them, nor the year after he retired, nor the year he missed the play-offs with an injury. I am led to believe he played with an ankle injury the other year. So did he benefit from a stacked team or did his team-mates benefit from being on his team ?.

For the first 3 years of Russell's career, Bill Sharman and Bob Cousy made all-NBA 1st team. That would be like if Jokic, SGA, and Tatum were all on a team, or Lebron, Durant, and Curry, or Duncan, Kobe, and Shaq, or Jordan, Bird, and Magic. Cousy finished 3rd, 1st, 6th, 4th, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 8th in MVP voting for the years he played with Russell. He also played with Havlicek for 7 years who made 4 all-star teams, 4 all-NBA teams, and finished 10th in MVP voting while playing with Russell. Havlicek would go on to win 2 championships without Russell and 1 Finals MVP.

In the 69 Finals Havlicek averaged 28, 11, and 4 on 45.7% FG and 84.7 FT%. Russell averaged 9, 21, and 5, 39.7% FG and 58.3% FT.

The Celtics also lost Sam Jones after 69, who was a 5 time all-star who made 3 all-NBA teams and finished 9th, 4th, and 5th in MVP voting.

Not only that, but for most of Russell's championships he only had to win 2 rounds.

You can't just rank players by how many rings they won. Otherwise the top 10 list would be:

1. Russell
2. Sam Jones
3. Tom Heinsohn
4. KC Jones
5. Satch Sanders
6. John Havlicek
7. Jim Loscutoff
8. Frank Ramsey
9. Robert Horry
10. Bob Cousy

And if you do it that way, Russell played with 8 top 10 players of all time.

We have to consider everything...championships, Finals MVPs, MVPs, all-NBA teams, statistics, strengths, weaknesses, the eye test...

I mean, you can't really compare what Russell had ages 24-31 to what Kareem had ages 24-31 or what Russell had ages 22-26 to what Jordan had ages 22-26 or what Russell had ages 22-25 to what Lebron had ages 22-25. In 1962 the Celtics had 4 all-stars and the next year they got Havlicek.

Considering the disparity in supporting casts, the disparity of stats, the disparity of the talent in the league(Russell lost to an all-white team in 1957), the lack of being a primary scorer, the lack of being able to make free throws...and I can't rank Russell ahead of Jordan, Lebron, or Kareem. 4th is the highest I can put him but even then I'm not sure if that's right.

michaelm · Post #64 » by **michaelm** » Thu Jan 23, 2025 6:35 am

NZB2323 wrote:
michaelm wrote:
NZB2323 wrote:
He helped his team win, but he played on stacked teams and was a career 56% free throw shooter. Him missing free throws didn’t help his team win.

He fairly clearly didn’t need to make free throws for his team to win. The Celtics also didn’t win the year before he started playing for them, nor the year after he retired, nor the year he missed the play-offs with an injury. I am led to believe he played with an ankle injury the other year. So did he benefit from a stacked team or did his team-mates benefit from being on his team ?.

For the first 3 years of Russell's career, Bill Sharman and Bob Cousy made all-NBA 1st team. That would be like if Jokic, SGA, and Tatum were all on a team, or Lebron, Durant, and Curry, or Duncan, Kobe, and Shaq, or Jordan, Bird, and Magic. Cousy finished 3rd, 1st, 6th, 4th, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 8th in MVP voting for the years he played with Russell. He also played with Havlicek for 7 years who made 4 all-star teams, 4 all-NBA teams, and finished 10th in MVP voting while playing with Russell. Havlicek would go on to win 2 championships without Russell and 1 Finals MVP.

In the 69 Finals Havlicek averaged 28, 11, and 4 on 45.7% FG and 84.7 FT%. Russell averaged 9, 21, and 5, 39.7% FG and 58.3% FT.

The Celtics also lost Sam Jones after 69, who was a 5 time all-star who made 3 all-NBA teams and finished 9th, 4th, and 5th in MVP voting.

Not only that, but for most of Russell's championships he only had to win 2 rounds.

You can't just rank players by how many rings they won. Otherwise the top 10 list would be:

1. Russell
2. Sam Jones
3. Tom Heinsohn
4. KC Jones
5. Satch Sanders
6. John Havlicek
7. Jim Loscutoff
8. Frank Ramsey
9. Robert Horry
10. Bob Cousy

And if you do it that way, Russell played with 8 top 10 players of all time.

We have to consider everything...championships, Finals MVPs, MVPs, all-NBA teams, statistics, strengths, weaknesses, the eye test...

I mean, you can't really compare what Russell had ages 24-31 to what Kareem had ages 24-31 or what Russell had ages 22-26 to what Jordan had ages 22-26 or what Russell had ages 22-25 to what Lebron had ages 22-25. In 1962 the Celtics had 4 all-stars and the next year they got Havlicek.

Considering the disparity in supporting casts, the disparity of stats, the disparity of the talent in the league(Russell lost to an all-white team in 1957), the lack of being a primary scorer, the lack of being able to make free throws...and I can't rank Russell ahead of Jordan, Lebron, or Kareem. 4th is the highest I can put him but even then I'm not sure if that's right.

That is fair, and I wouldn’t put him as GOAT based on rings either. My point was that there wasn’t much more he could have done. If it was a less competitive era with fewer teams then the same applies to Hall of Famers as well, and the question is whether Bill won because he had all NBA players next to him or they were all NBA players because they played next to Bill.

The year you refer to they lost was the year he had the foot injury with which he missed 2 finals games I believe. A little tough to chide him for not being able to beat an all white team when he was probably the main reason why NBA teams didn’t stay all white, and certainly a trailblazer for black players and one who copped a large amount of grief for being so. I actually became interested in him after seeing a documentary which detailed his travails in regard to racial issues.

Post #65 » by **cupcakesnake** » Thu Jan 23, 2025 4:51 pm

SlimShady83 wrote:The person complaining about poll, about Wilt not being in the first one, so I put Wilt in this one now they have a sook about Russell not being on the poll and thinks I'm trolling, wow just wow.

Mods if you want block this one start your own etc I'm not fussed I'm done here.

Just wow.

People will always get upset about polls. Ignore the haters! You made a good thread.

SlimShady83 · Post #66 » by **SlimShady83** » Thu Jan 23, 2025 6:54 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:
SlimShady83 wrote:The person complaining about poll, about Wilt not being in the first one, so I put Wilt in this one now they have a sook about Russell not being on the poll and thinks I'm trolling, wow just wow.

Mods if you want block this one start your own etc I'm not fussed I'm done here.

Just wow.

People will always get upset about polls. Ignore the haters! You made a good thread.

Believe me I know and many thanks.

ScrantonBulls · Post #67 » by **ScrantonBulls** » Fri Jan 24, 2025 7:09 am

cupcakesnake wrote:
SlimShady83 wrote:The person complaining about poll, about Wilt not being in the first one, so I put Wilt in this one now they have a sook about Russell not being on the poll and thinks I'm trolling, wow just wow.

Mods if you want block this one start your own etc I'm not fussed I'm done here.

Just wow.

People will always get upset about polls. Ignore the haters! You made a good thread.

I'm sorry, but a GOAT thread/poll that does not include Bill Russell when you have 9 choices is not good.

The poll has already been adjusted. There is no further need for discussion about this. Let it go.
- ccs

SlimShady83 · Post #68 » by **SlimShady83** » Fri Jan 24, 2025 7:46 am

ScrantonBulls wrote:
cupcakesnake wrote:
SlimShady83 wrote:The person complaining about poll, about Wilt not being in the first one, so I put Wilt in this one now they have a sook about Russell not being on the poll and thinks I'm trolling, wow just wow.

Mods if you want block this one start your own etc I'm not fussed I'm done here.

Just wow.

People will always get upset about polls. Ignore the haters! You made a good thread.

I'm sorry, but a GOAT thread/poll that does not include Bill Russell when you have 9 choices is not good.

@Mods this Is this Is the guy I'm talking about and yet his still sooking.

Dude please stop, just stop with the poll nonsense, not everyone Is going to be happy like mod above had said, It's next to Impossible to keep everyone happy.

Not only that on the first thread, I didn't have Wilt you complained, complained and complained with other people viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2393113&start=1880 ... It's all there... Even taking a pun out of me for It - not cool.

Now I put Wilt on here and now you're complaining about Russell not being on here and thanks to Bizme/Zimpy they've changed the poll and put Russell on there instead of Jerry West (time for fresh players)... And yet you still complaining and yet you think I'm trolling.. WOW! yes I saw the thread Bizme created but blocked.

Again Stop, with the poll comments please. You can't keep everyone happy!

If you have any more complaints then talk to Bizme and Zimpy or other mods who have the ability to fix It.

I will no longer be commenting and talking about the POLL... It was time for a new thread and keeping the goats In Jordan/Bron with some new names ...

Heck I'm a Kobe fan (10 votes) and I took him out of this goat thread. I also took out; Magic (3 votes) Duncan (8 votes) Jokic (13 votes ) Curry (9 votes) and Russell (21 votes)

The Main purpose of this thread was to stop multiple goat threads from happening daily/weekly (helping modz out) basis and being able to talk about who ever you want in regards to the goat topic for all eternity.

I will no longer be answering anymore questions about the poll and the names on the poll. If you wish to complain about the poll/names etc feel free to contact the mods; Bizme/Zimpy and others please take care of this please..

@Modz this Is now In your hands Inregards to poll questions etc

Happy to talk about goat topics etc, but Inregards to Poll all on Modz

Many thank and good games today.

Peace out.

michaelm · Post #69 » by **michaelm** » Fri Jan 24, 2025 10:31 pm

SlimShady83 wrote:
ScrantonBulls wrote:
cupcakesnake wrote:
People will always get upset about polls. Ignore the haters! You made a good thread.

I'm sorry, but a GOAT thread/poll that does not include Bill Russell when you have 9 choices is not good.

@Mods this Is this Is the guy I'm talking about and yet his still sooking.

Dude please stop, just stop with the poll nonsense, not everyone Is going to be happy like mod above had said, It's next to Impossible to keep everyone happy.

Not only that on the first thread, I didn't have Wilt you complained, complained and complained with other people viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2393113&start=1880 ... It's all there... Even taking a pun out of me for It - not cool.

Now I put Wilt on here and now you're complaining about Russell not being on here and thanks to Bizme/Zimpy they've changed the poll and put Russell on there instead of Jerry West (time for fresh players)... And yet you still complaining and yet you think I'm trolling.. WOW! yes I saw the thread Bizme created but blocked.

Again Stop, with the poll comments please. You can't keep everyone happy!

If you have any more complaints then talk to Bizme and Zimpy or other mods who have the ability to fix It.

I will no longer be commenting and talking about the POLL... It was time for a new thread and keeping the goats In Jordan/Bron with some new names ...

Heck I'm a Kobe fan (10 votes) and I took him out of this goat thread. I also took out; Magic (3 votes) Duncan (8 votes) Jokic (13 votes ) Curry (9 votes) and Russell (21 votes)

The Main purpose of this thread was to stop multiple goat threads from happening daily/weekly (helping modz out) basis and being able to talk about who ever you want in regards to the goat topic for all eternity.

I will no longer be answering anymore questions about the poll and the names on the poll. If you wish to complain about the poll/names etc feel free to contact the mods; Bizme/Zimpy and others please take care of this please..

@Modz this Is now In your hands Inregards to poll questions etc

Happy to talk about goat topics etc, but Inregards to Poll all on Modz

Many thank and good games today.

Peace out.

I strongly suspect the poster concerned is of the view there only needs to be one option for the poll.

The High Cyde · Post #70 » by **The High Cyde** » Fri Jan 24, 2025 11:12 pm

Jokic is definitely climbing up the ranks. He might not be any less than third right now behind James and Jordan, he’s in their tier given peak to peak and prime to prime, even without the defense, which just by position and role he impacts the game more almost by default. All this without another all star lmao it’s insanity. Averaging a triple double on the season as a center with an army of stats backed by years of astounding stats gets you in the door in my book.

OriginalRed · Post #71 » by **OriginalRed** » Sat Jan 25, 2025 1:00 am

The High Cyde wrote:Jokic is definitely climbing up the ranks. He might not be any less than third right now behind James and Jordan, he’s in their tier given peak to peak and prime to prime, even without the defense, which just by position and role he impacts the game more almost by default. All this without another all star lmao it’s insanity. Averaging a triple double on the season as a center with an army of stats backed by years of astounding stats gets you in the door in my book.

You don't climb the all time ranks based on regular season dominance. You need rings. I fully agree though that just based on the eye test, Jokic is already a Top 5 player of all time based on peak performance but he needs to stack up the hardware before we start firmly placing him in all time great rankings near Jordan and Lebron.

bledredwine · Post #72 » by **bledredwine** » Sat Jan 25, 2025 5:05 pm

SlimShady83 wrote:
ScrantonBulls wrote:
cupcakesnake wrote:
People will always get upset about polls. Ignore the haters! You made a good thread.

I'm sorry, but a GOAT thread/poll that does not include Bill Russell when you have 9 choices is not good.

@Mods this Is this Is the guy I'm talking about and yet his still sooking.

Dude please stop, just stop with the poll nonsense, not everyone Is going to be happy like mod above had said, It's next to Impossible to keep everyone happy.

Not only that on the first thread, I didn't have Wilt you complained, complained and complained with other people viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2393113&start=1880 ... It's all there... Even taking a pun out of me for It - not cool.

Now I put Wilt on here and now you're complaining about Russell not being on here and thanks to Bizme/Zimpy they've changed the poll and put Russell on there instead of Jerry West (time for fresh players)... And yet you still complaining and yet you think I'm trolling.. WOW! yes I saw the thread Bizme created but blocked.

Again Stop, with the poll comments please. You can't keep everyone happy!

If you have any more complaints then talk to Bizme and Zimpy or other mods who have the ability to fix It.

I will no longer be commenting and talking about the POLL... It was time for a new thread and keeping the goats In Jordan/Bron with some new names ...

Heck I'm a Kobe fan (10 votes) and I took him out of this goat thread. I also took out; Magic (3 votes) Duncan (8 votes) Jokic (13 votes ) Curry (9 votes) and Russell (21 votes)

The Main purpose of this thread was to stop multiple goat threads from happening daily/weekly (helping modz out) basis and being able to talk about who ever you want in regards to the goat topic for all eternity.

I will no longer be answering anymore questions about the poll and the names on the poll. If you wish to complain about the poll/names etc feel free to contact the mods; Bizme/Zimpy and others please take care of this please..

@Modz this Is now In your hands Inregards to poll questions etc

Happy to talk about goat topics etc, but Inregards to Poll all on Modz

Many thank and good games today.

Peace out.

Ignore him. That’s what I do. You have nothing to lose. Actually, when someone makes a post, they expect a reply and receive a dopamine hit, so by ignoring you’re actually winning every time. This is science and I heard it from an earlier Andrew Huberman podcast.

Dont just do it for his- do it for any post you consider pointless to reply to.

bledredwine · Post #73 » by **bledredwine** » Sat Jan 25, 2025 5:07 pm

OriginalRed wrote:
The High Cyde wrote:Jokic is definitely climbing up the ranks. He might not be any less than third right now behind James and Jordan, he’s in their tier given peak to peak and prime to prime, even without the defense, which just by position and role he impacts the game more almost by default. All this without another all star lmao it’s insanity. Averaging a triple double on the season as a center with an army of stats backed by years of astounding stats gets you in the door in my book.

You don't climb the all time ranks based on regular season dominance. You need rings. I fully agree though that just based on the eye test, Jokic is already a Top 5 player of all time based on peak performance but he needs to stack up the hardware before we start firmly placing him in all time great rankings near Jordan and Lebron.

Yep, and especially now that the regular season is such a chill atmosphere. We have the biggest gap in regular season/playoffs. I only judge players by how they appear in the playoffs. I don’t care if they hit shots with a ton of space.

This isn’t in reference to Jokic, but some of the regular season made superstars who can’t get it done in the playoffs.

SlimShady83 · Post #74 » by **SlimShady83** » Sun Jan 26, 2025 4:49 pm

bledredwine wrote:Ignore him. That’s what I do.

I won't go that far, happy to talk ball and the goats etc, but I've grown tired of people complaining about the poll esp from the first thread, no ones perfect. and you can't keep everyone happy, just leave It

bledredwine wrote:This isn’t in reference to Jokic, but some of the regular season made superstars who can’t get it done in the playoffs.

I can't rank players who're still playing and In their primes, I'll wait more towards the end of their careers. Jokic/Giannis still got a lot left.

Post #75 » by **Jamaaliver** » Sun Jan 26, 2025 6:43 pm

Spoiler:

Big J · Post #76 » by **Big J** » Mon Jan 27, 2025 6:05 pm

MJ did the dunk contest because he wanted to be better than everyone at everything, and he wanted to prove how great he was. There wasn’t much financial incentive back then either, and he possibly could have sprained an ankle or something, but he just didn’t gaf because he wanted to be the best.

reddyplayerone · Post #77 » by **reddyplayerone** » Mon Jan 27, 2025 6:13 pm

Has anyone really suffered an injury in the dunk contest? Like anything that actually caused them to miss games?

Cause that's always been a funny excuse to me lol

therealbig3 · Post #78 » by **therealbig3** » Mon Jan 27, 2025 6:20 pm

Sure.

He was pathologically competitive. We know this. It doesn’t really make him more or less impressive than someone else though.

Vince Carter wasn’t a shining example of competitive fire, and he competed in the dunk contest too.

I do think it’s a travesty as a fan that LeBron never competed, but whatever, it’s the dunk contest. People making overarching conclusions about his mental toughness and using it as a reason for Jordan being better is silly. It’s like using the All-Star game as proof of anything.

theforumblue · Post #79 » by **theforumblue** » Mon Jan 27, 2025 6:27 pm

it's simply proof of lebron's insecurity and maybe some that came after him. not much else.

reddyplayerone · Post #80 » by **reddyplayerone** » Mon Jan 27, 2025 6:47 pm

Oh oh I see this is supposed to be a topic about ragging on LeBron for never doing the dunk contest?

Yeah the people expressing those opinions are exactly why he and no other star caliber players want to do it anymore. There's no point when no matter what they do they're going to get made fun of and fans will cry about it.

MJ did it back when fans favorite pastime wasn't crying and acting spoiled at all times.

Who Is officially the goat!? Only have 10 slots Poll.