OT: Djoker Becomes Undisputed GOAT

[Rust_Cohle]

I think Alcaraz was just ruined mentally by the Olympics, because he would have felt like he let Nadal down by allowing Djokovic the Gold Medal (Nadal won 2008 Singles Gold and 2016 Doubles Gold, while Djokovic had never won a Gold), and lost early in the Olympic Doubles with Nadal too. I remember Alcaraz literally told the Spanish media that he would bring back the Gold Medal.

He was physically exhausted, first and foremost, he missed almost the full clay season in 2024 due to injury and played Roland Garros-Wimbledon without a serious preparation, it's understandable that he couldn't maintain this level for any longer. That's why after the Olympics he lost to 38yo Monfils and to Botic van Zandschulp at the US Open. But Novak was obviously great in Paris.

How much is 2025 Novak worse than 2023 Novak?
I suspect not much, what changed is that now there are two athletes in his tier, but 15 years younger.
Pretty sure he wouldn't have won any major, against this version of Sincaraz.

He's significantly worse - but at the same time Alcaraz and Sinner are much better than they were in 2023, and Alcaraz was able to defeat Novak on Wimbledon while Sinner defeated him in virtual final of Davis Cup. He would've won some Slams, but not as many, this is a fair assessment, Alcaraz started to serve so much better since Wimbledon/clay season this year, Sinner is just a tier better all-round as a player.

But it's more and more apparent that we had the biggest gap ever in terms of emergence of 'historical' players (Djokovic - 1987, Sinner - 2001, 14 years) - and you can't even use that much 'but big3!' argument for this 2020-2023 era.

Let's hope we'll see someone new sooner rather than later, because there's no one on the horizon at this point who could challenge Sinner and Alcaraz.

Despite the age gap, I’d argue the 2004-2006 era was worse

[bonita_the_frog]

I don't think any betting market will have Sinner the favorite to win Roland Garros, Wimbledon or US Open.
Alcaraz is the safest bet, because he's mentally indestructible in 5-setters.
And now its confirmed Alcaraz is BACK at hardcourt slams, playing the best US Open since 2010/2013 Nadal.

That means Sinner's only choice is to beat Alcaraz in 3 or 4 sets, and we know he can't beat Alcaraz in 3 sets.
So its 4 sets or bust!
Sinner will still be the favorite at AO though, probably, just because he's still the defending champ.

I think Sinner only won Wimbledon because Alcaraz looked tired and flat after sweeping the clay and winning Queens.
But Alcaraz still won the 1st Set, so it wasn't easy for Sinner, and Alcaraz almost got the 4th Set back on serve late.

[NoStatsGuy]

I don't think any betting market will have Sinner the favorite to win Roland Garros, Wimbledon or US Open.
Alcaraz is the safest bet, because he's mentally indestructible in 5-setters.

That means Sinner's only choice is to beat Alcaraz in 3 or 4 sets, and we know he can't beat Alcaraz in 3 sets.
So its 4 sets or bust!
Sinner will still be the favorite at AO though, probably, just because he's still the defending champ.

I think Sinner only won Wimbledon because Alcaraz looked tired and flat after sweeping the clay and winning Queens.
But Alcaraz still won the 1st Set, so it wasn't easy for Sinner, and Alcaraz almost got the 4th Set back on serve late.

i agree alcaraz didnt look right at wimbledon. but lets not forget sinner also played hurt at wimbledon and now the us open. i want to see a year where they are both at peak performance and health.

[wade44]

Alcaraz just got number 6 at 22, Novak had one slam at the same age Alcaraz is now. And Alcaraz only has one major rival instead of two, I think he's probably a favorite to catch Novak, injuries are the only thing stopping him.

If he wins an average of 2 tournaments per year for the next 8 years he’d be at 22 slams at 30 years old & 2 away from Novak.

A calendar slam is not nearly out of the question then the math becomes even less

[bonita_the_frog]

I don't think any betting market will have Sinner the favorite to win Roland Garros, Wimbledon or US Open.
Alcaraz is the safest bet, because he's mentally indestructible in 5-setters.

That means Sinner's only choice is to beat Alcaraz in 3 or 4 sets, and we know he can't beat Alcaraz in 3 sets.
So its 4 sets or bust!
Sinner will still be the favorite at AO though, probably, just because he's still the defending champ.

I think Sinner only won Wimbledon because Alcaraz looked tired and flat after sweeping the clay and winning Queens.
But Alcaraz still won the 1st Set, so it wasn't easy for Sinner, and Alcaraz almost got the 4th Set back on serve late.

i agree alcaraz didnt look right at wimbledon. but lets not forget sinner also played hurt at wimbledon and now the us open. i want to see a year where they are both at peak performance and health.

That's the other thing, I don't trust Sinner's body, because he relies on mobility more than anything and he's pretty tall 6-3 or 6-4.
I know Djokovic was pretty tall, 6-2, but Djokovic's body looks a lot more flexible and stretchable than Sinner's body.
I won't bank on full health for Sinner, whereas Alcaraz has been healthy at all the slams, but just looked fatigued (not injured) at Wimbledon.
Alcaraz is great at adapting to grass, so he really doesn't need to play Queens, after a hectic clay season especially.

[The Master]

Despite the age gap, I’d argue the 2004-2006 era was worse

It wasn't a strong era, clearly, but 89-94 and 95-00 generations will go down in history as the worst ever, and it's not only because they competed against Big 3 - this is clearly on display now considering what Sinncaraz are doing. The best player born in the ~89-00 decade is Daniil Medvedev, this is simply ridiculous from historical perspective.

But yeah, Hewitt, Roddick or Safin aren't historical figures even on the level of Edberg or Wilander, that's for sure.

[bonita_the_frog]

1ST SERVE % IN

1st Set = Sinner 60, Alcaraz 63

2nd Set = Sinner 47, Alcaraz 53

3rd Set = Sinner 56, Alcaraz 50

4th Set = Sinner 36, Alcaraz 72

https://www.usopen.org/en_US/scores/completed_matches/index.html

[Shock Defeat]

In 15 years the thread will be

Alcaraz becomes the Undisputed Goat

[sisibilio]

Despite the age gap, I’d argue the 2004-2006 era was worse

It wasn't a strong era, clearly, but 89-94 and 95-00 generations will go down in history as the worst ever, and it's not only because they competed against Big 3 - this is clearly on display now considering what Sinncaraz are doing. The best player born in the ~89-00 decade is Daniil Medvedev, this is simply ridiculous from historical perspective.

But yeah, Hewitt, Roddick or Safin aren't historical figures even on the level of Edberg or Wilander, that's for sure.

Safin was a heck of a talent though.

[Rust_Cohle]

Despite the age gap, I’d argue the 2004-2006 era was worse

It wasn't a strong era, clearly, but 89-94 and 95-00 generations will go down in history as the worst ever, and it's not only because they competed against Big 3 - this is clearly on display now considering what Sinncaraz are doing. The best player born in the ~89-00 decade is Daniil Medvedev, this is simply ridiculous from historical perspective.

But yeah, Hewitt, Roddick or Safin aren't historical figures even on the level of Edberg or Wilander, that's for sure.

Safin was a heck of a talent though.

I liked Safin! But underwhelming career with his temper holding him back. When he was on he was great for sure.

[Cubbies2120]

In 15 years the thread will be

Alcaraz becomes the Undisputed Goat

His only competition is Sinner...and Djokovic (who still has a winning record vs. Alcaraz).

Whereas Djokovic had:
Nadal
Federer
Murray
Sinner
Alcaraz

Unless we get a mysterious new face, the level of competition between them is not comparable.

[MissileMike]

I'm really hoping some third wheel shows up, hopefully a villain. Alcaraz and Sinner are great, and seem very nice, but we really need some variety.

[Clav]

In terms of the newest Men's tennis challengers on the horizon, let's talk about some of the current players perhaps ?

I'll start with 4, maybe you all can add as well.

Joao Fonseca, 19 - Has a great forehand, natural feel for the game. He's impressed me in a few matches so far, but has a lot to learn. I think we'll see him move up the rankings from here, but he has the tools to challenge anyone on a good day. There's a few years for him to refine, but keep an eye on his progress in the 26 season.

Ben Shelton, 22 - Out of the Americans, I think Shelton has the highest ceiling. US Open showed he was a lot more confident in his 2nd serve, and he was much better at attacking in the points. However, he had to retire with a shoulder issue which can be frustrating for sure. Being a left-handed player has its benefits, can catch players out at times.

Giovanni Mpetshi Perricard, 22 - Strong server, has big baseline power, but still finding that high level play. He's in a critical few years and hasn't made a huge impact, but I do think there's some potential here to be unlocked, he has a powerful game and is still young enough.

Jakub Mensik, 20 - Big time potential here as well, has a strong backhand and did very well in matches over this 25 season already. I think in 2 years he might be someone that affects the top of the rankings seriously.


What happens to Zverev, Draper ? others ?

[bonita_the_frog]

I'm really hoping some third wheel shows up, hopefully a villain. Alcaraz and Sinner are great, and seem very nice, but we really need some variety.

I hope the 3rd wheel is a Will Ferrell type personality, because tennis players do an interview after EVERY match and multiple interviews just after winning a title, so that is an excellent opportunity to make headlines everyday with your comedic routine

They can even do a complete act and treat each interview like stand-up comedy. I'm surprised no tennis player has done this before.
They are so obsessed with image and "brand", yet they don't even consider making their brand comedic or entertaining.

Jerry Seinfeld is a legend, but he'd have been even more of a legend if he was a professional tennis player, because he'd be doing standup comedy after every match.
Instead we have Ben Shelton

"There's been some comments that have been made to me in post match interviews by a couple of different guys whether its 'Hey Monfils is old enough to be your dad, maybe he is your dad'. Or today on the court 'Hey Ben how does it feel that no matter who you play in your next match no one's going to be cheering for you?' I mean it may be true but I just don't think its a comment that's respectful from a guy I've never met before in my life." --Ben Shelton @ AO 2025

Watch on YouTube

[hagredionis]

In 15 years the thread will be

Alcaraz becomes the Undisputed Goat

His only competition is Sinner...and Djokovic (who still has a winning record vs. Alcaraz).

Whereas Djokovic had:
Nadal
Federer
Murray
Sinner
Alcaraz

Unless we get a mysterious new face, the level of competition between them is not comparable.

Yeah in the first part of his carreer Djokovic faces great competition but in the second part not so much. Sinner and Alcaraz only emerged in the last 2 or 3 years, before that for many years it was old past prime Federer and Nadal who was struggling with injuries.

[bonita_the_frog]

"I gotta go back, you know, who inspired me… For me, I needed my GOAT people who were on the wall at home and I wanted to be like them,” said Federer.

“And for me, that was Stefan Edberg, Swedish guy. He always attacked the net, he was super elegant. He was the coolest.
And then Boris Becker, from Germany. They (Edberg and Becker) used to play against each other, so I used to be watching them on TV.

“And then Pete Sampras was the next one, from the US. And then, of course, Nadal and maybe Djokovic.”

Watch on YouTube

[EmpireFalls]

"I gotta go back, you know, who inspired me… For me, I needed my GOAT people who were on the wall at home and I wanted to be like them,” said Federer.

“And for me, that was Stefan Edberg, Swedish guy. He always attacked the net, he was super elegant. He was the coolest.
And then Boris Becker, from Germany. They (Edberg and Becker) used to play against each other, so I used to be watching them on TV.

“And then Pete Sampras was the next one, from the US. And then, of course, Nadal and maybe Djokovic.”

Watch on YouTube

Federer is closer chronologically to John McEnroe and Bjorn Borg (21 year gap) than he is to Carlos Alcaraz (22 year gap)

Have to remember that the tennis world he grew up in was totally different than the one we know now.

[maxpower8888]

In 15 years the thread will be

Alcaraz becomes the Undisputed Goat

His only competition is Sinner...and Djokovic (who still has a winning record vs. Alcaraz).

Whereas Djokovic had:
Nadal
Federer
Murray
Sinner
Alcaraz

Unless we get a mysterious new face, the level of competition between them is not comparable.

Yeah in the first part of his carreer Djokovic faces great competition but in the second part not so much. Sinner and Alcaraz only emerged in the last 2 or 3 years, before that for many years it was old past prime Federer and Nadal who was struggling with injuries.

"The first part of his career" is a major undersell. "For the vast majority of his career" is way more accurate. I don't know why the copers always act like Djokovic is so much younger than Nadal. They're one year apart. Him and Federer are 6 years apart.

The difference in age between Alcaraz and Novak is 16 years, almost three times as large as the age gap between Novak and Federer. The fact that Djokovic is still able to play at a high level is a testament to how good he is. Him a d LeBron have comparable longevity.

[bonita_the_frog]

But Djokovic didn't win a slam title (other than 2008 AO) until 2011, so he only started winning big after Nadal lost A LOT of speed when his knee tendinitis worsened after winning 2008 Roland Garros, 2008 Wimbledon and Olympics.

Nadal should have taken 6 months off but instead played the 2009 AO and took cortisone shots over and over and played a combined 9 hours in the semi and final. He was never the same after that, whereas 2004-2008 Nadal was as fast as (or faster than) Alcaraz currently is.

And I know Nadal's skills increased over the years, but because of Nadal's physical decline, Djokovic beat won their most physical matches like 2012 AO and 2011 US Open (which was only 4 sets but it took 4 hours 10 minutes) and 2018 Wimbledon.
2013 Roland Garros was the exception. And Nadal beat Djokovic at 2010 and 2013 US Open Finals but they weren't marathons.

Federer also declined physically, really since 2008 Federer's level was slipping, as he was recovering from mono and was never the same again... He was still very skillful, but he just looked a lot swifter on his feet before the mono and never looked as athletic after that.

[maxpower8888]

But Djokovic didn't win a slam title (other than 2008 AO) until 2011, so he only started winning big after Nadal lost A LOT of speed when his knee tendinitis worsened after winning 2008 Roland Garros, 2008 Wimbledon and Olympics.

Nadal should have taken 6 months off but instead played the 2009 AO and took cortisone shots over and over and played a combined 9 hours in the semi and final. He was never the same after that, whereas 2004-2008 Nadal was as fast as (or faster than) Alcaraz currently is.

Federer also declined, really since 2008 Federer's level was slipping, as he was recovering from mono and was never the same again... He was still very skillful, but he just looked a lot swifter on his feet before the mono and never looked as athletic after that.

That's patently false, you're trying to rewrite history. Nadal won more Slams after 2011 than before. And Federer was 27 years old and in his prime in 2008. But I wonder what happened around 2008 that caused Federer to stop being as dominant, maybe two young generational talents that started to come into their own, hmm.