How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet?

[bonita_the_frog]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

Claiming Bird was an "elite" defender is ludicrous.

Pre or post back problems? Because for one of them I don't think it is.

Plus I never said elite defender, I said "elite 2-way player" meaning he was elite (Bird easily elite, 3 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs) and he was a 2-way player.

And in order to be a 2-way player (in my book) you have to be WORTHY of making an All-Defensive Team.
And Bird is WAY more than worthy, because he made All-Defensive Team on THREE occasions, and he was worthy of it.

And even in 1990-91, years into his BAD BACK era he still averaged 1.0 blocks per game (and averaged 1.2 blocks at his peak in 1984-85).
And in the playoffs Bird averaged 1.4 blocks in 1981-82, and 1.2 blocks in 1983-84.

And a player who doesn't jump much, and especially with a bad back, averaging 1.0 blocks per game (for 60 games in 1990-91) shows you what he was made of.
Jokic has never averaged 1.0 blocks per game (averaged 0.9 for one season), despite being fully fit and 2 inches taller than Bird.

[Fencer reregistered]

You can't be serious... Giannis isn't elite two way player, he isn't elite on either end. Also this thread was not about Giannis, so do not derail the thread...

Giannis was never a top tier ATG defender, in the two traits he can play defensively only, he isn't even elite (rim protection and roaming). Funny.


Jokic gaps Giannis, the amount he does is not even funny. It's been like this since 2021 where Jokic has had an argument for best in the world. Stop glazing Giannis and disrespecting Jokic.

Stop talking basketball mate. Go watch cricket or something else.

Ps. On the thread: Jokic will be top10 when all is said and done. So will Giannis.

Stop glazing Giannis. Ur proving everything I said about Giannis FC, that they resort to insults with no facts, and ignore the millions of failures he had.

Like genuinely if KDs foot was one inch sorter he would have nothing to show for his legacy. He's been a consistent failure throughout his career. Put Devin Booker on that team he wins 3 titles at LEAST.

Also, stop being hostile. I can fight back with this if I want to but just because I have an opinion that has never been debunked and is completely true, doesn't mean you should be a butt hurt Giannis Stan about it.

KD's and Giannis' legacies are significantly affected by KD putting his foot in slightly the wrong place.

Bird's legacy, meanwhile, is somewhat affected by placing his toes perfectly. (The famous steal against the Pistons adds credibility to his earlier-career defensive awards.)

[hagredionis]

I've Jokic outside of my top 20 and the reason is his defense. These past playoffs was the first time I really watched all Denver games and I was surprised how bad his defense is because I always read here in these forums that he's a good defender. He's of course a generation talented on the offensive end and if his defense would be better I'd easily rank him top 10 all time but so far he isn't in the top 20 for me.

[iggymcfrack]

Stop talking basketball mate. Go watch cricket or something else.

Ps. On the thread: Jokic will be top10 when all is said and done. So will Giannis.

Stop glazing Giannis. Ur proving everything I said about Giannis FC, that they resort to insults with no facts, and ignore the millions of failures he had.

Like genuinely if KDs foot was one inch sorter he would have nothing to show for his legacy. He's been a consistent failure throughout his career. Put Devin Booker on that team he wins 3 titles at LEAST.

Also, stop being hostile. I can fight back with this if I want to but just because I have an opinion that has never been debunked and is completely true, doesn't mean you should be a butt hurt Giannis Stan about it.

KD's and Giannis' legacies are significantly affected by KD putting his foot in slightly the wrong place.

Bird's legacy, meanwhile, is somewhat affected by placing his toes perfectly. (The famous steal against the Pistons adds credibility to his earlier-career defensive awards.)

I’m so sick of people lionizing KD’s 2021 where he missed half the regular season and lost in the 2nd round. You know whose legacies would have benefited the most if KD hit a three at the end of that Game 7? Chris Paul and possibly Trey Young.

The Nets got lucky enough to catch Milwaukee having their worst series of the playoffs and they still lost 4 of 5 after the injuries started mounting up. They would have been dead meat by the Finals if they even beat the Hawks.

[CobraCommander]

Actually KAJ still has more made buckets.

I find it odd how this forum wants to talk about the playoffs as being all that matters...until it doesn't work. But yes Kareem had more regular season made field goals. Lebron has more playoff and regular season combined ones.

It’s because in the 70’s there were less rounds in the playoffs and the higher seeds got byes in the first round so they played less games. LeBron has made .3 more baskets per playoff game than Kareem. Also Kareem played a lot more playoff games than LeBron at the end of his career when he was making less shots bringing down his per game average.

Then compare their prime avgs-

But then you gotta consider lbj has had like 4 primes

[DimesandKnicks]

There’s no one like Jokic defensively. He’s definitely well below average at the thing that’s the main responsibility for most centers, but he’s also the best in the league at several other things. Best hands in the league, consistently gets more steals and deflections than any other center. Coach on the floor who probably does more to position his teammates than any other player. One of the very best defensive rebounders in the league. Excellent at avoiding fouls. And also, his turnover suppression on offense really limits the other team’s transition opportunities.

The net effect is that he’s been a huge boon to the Nuggets’ defense. His defensive on/off has been in the top quartile of the league 8 out of 10 seasons with him ranking in the 92nd percentile or higher in 3 of those seasons. The entire roster has turned over that period. He’s played with vastly different teammates. And yet he consistently makes the defense much better on an incredibly consistent basis. There’s too much signal there for it to just be noise.

When we start listening to limiting turnovers to highlight someone’s defensive impacts we start entering the abstract

And yet, we went back and fourth for a week on this topic and you couldn't quantify any of your issues with Jokic's defense. Your arguments are just as abstract.

As Iggy clearly point out. We have enough data to state that beyond a shadow of doubt, Jokic's defense makes his team's overall defense better. This isn't a debatable fact, the data sets are too large and too robust with him.

If you’re being honest, I quantified every argument I made. And a Jokic team has only been a top 10 defense once since he entered his prime.

[DimesandKnicks]

Making all defensive team doesn't mean much. Funny enough, to your point. Iverson three different times received votes by these same idiots for DPOY despite being a flat out bad defender. The writers are trash when it comes to their defensive voting. Are you going to claim Vlade wasn't an elite defender because he never got on those teams?

I specifically said "If you make an All-Defensive Team OR at least worthy of making All-Defensive teams, you can labelled a 2-way player in my book".
There might be 30 or 40 players who are worthy of making the All-Defensive teams, and if they are also among the better offensive players then they'll be "2-way players".

Using XRAPM's defensive percentiles

2016 - 96th
2017 - 93rd
2018 - 87th
2019 - 92nd
2020 - 68th
2021 - 93rd
2022 - 93rd
2023 - 96th
2024 - 97th

Given there are about 450 legit player in the league at any given time. Anyone in the top 10% would be in that 40ish group. So we can wrap this up. Jokic meets your definition.

What is XRAPM's defensive percentiles and how is it calculated?

[BelgradeNugget]

I've Jokic outside of my top 20 and the reason is his defense. These past playoffs was the first time I really watched all Denver games and I was surprised how bad his defense is because I always read here in these forums that he's a good defender. He's of course a generation talented on the offensive end and if his defense would be better I'd easily rank him top 10 all time but so far he isn't in the top 20 for me.

Past season they played worst defense in the last 10 years, all of the Nuggets, for various reasons. So you have seen his (Nuggets) playoff lows. If you have time and will go look 2023 playoffs, their playoff highs.
This way you will have better picture

[TheGeneral99]

I've Jokic outside of my top 20 and the reason is his defense. These past playoffs was the first time I really watched all Denver games and I was surprised how bad his defense is because I always read here in these forums that he's a good defender. He's of course a generation talented on the offensive end and if his defense would be better I'd easily rank him top 10 all time but so far he isn't in the top 20 for me.

If defense is your issue then you would agree that Dirk and Curry should not be in the top 20? I don't think many people would agree with that.

In my opinion, while Jokic isn't a great defender, he's not a bad one, and he's an elite rebounder.

[Black star]

It's not crazy. Steph has 4 titles and a FMVP, the only unanimous MVP, and led the best dynasty we've seen since the Jordan Bulls, and he's still not consistently chosen in top 10 all time lists. Turns out there have been a lot of amazing players in the league and by the time you get to the top 15 all of them have incredible resumes.

Jokic has been awesome so far in his career but if he never wins another title again he's going to settle in that low teens to 20s range. Skill and dominance wise he has been as good as those top 10 guys but when you are trying to crack the elite groupings you have to separate yourself with hardware. Currently he's duking it out with KG, Moses, and the Big O.

He also isn't some Lebron or Hakeem level freak with no glaring weaknesses. The defense is a visible problem and most fans aren't going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he could rack up titles unless he actually does it. Curry had the same issue but he destroyed the doubt by leading multiple championship and all time great teams both with and without KD.

[Top10alltime]

Stop talking basketball mate. Go watch cricket or something else.

Ps. On the thread: Jokic will be top10 when all is said and done. So will Giannis.

Stop glazing Giannis. Ur proving everything I said about Giannis FC, that they resort to insults with no facts, and ignore the millions of failures he had.

Like genuinely if KDs foot was one inch sorter he would have nothing to show for his legacy. He's been a consistent failure throughout his career. Put Devin Booker on that team he wins 3 titles at LEAST.

Also, stop being hostile. I can fight back with this if I want to but just because I have an opinion that has never been debunked and is completely true, doesn't mean you should be a butt hurt Giannis Stan about it.

KD's and Giannis' legacies are significantly affected by KD putting his foot in slightly the wrong place.

Bird's legacy, meanwhile, is somewhat affected by placing his toes perfectly. (The famous steal against the Pistons adds credibility to his earlier-career defensive awards.)

Yes and KD has a top 15 all time player, while Giannis is hyped up just for that ring. He isnt top 50-55.

[KGtabake]

Stop glazing Giannis. Ur proving everything I said about Giannis FC, that they resort to insults with no facts, and ignore the millions of failures he had.

Like genuinely if KDs foot was one inch sorter he would have nothing to show for his legacy. He's been a consistent failure throughout his career. Put Devin Booker on that team he wins 3 titles at LEAST.

Also, stop being hostile. I can fight back with this if I want to but just because I have an opinion that has never been debunked and is completely true, doesn't mean you should be a butt hurt Giannis Stan about it.

KD's and Giannis' legacies are significantly affected by KD putting his foot in slightly the wrong place.

Bird's legacy, meanwhile, is somewhat affected by placing his toes perfectly. (The famous steal against the Pistons adds credibility to his earlier-career defensive awards.)

Yes and KD has a top 15 all time player, while Giannis is hyped up just for that ring. He isnt top 50-55.

He lives rent free in your head though and nobody can change that

[Iwasawitness]

You can't be serious... Giannis isn't elite two way player, he isn't elite on either end. Also this thread was not about Giannis, so do not derail the thread...

Giannis was never a top tier ATG defender, in the two traits he can play defensively only, he isn't even elite (rim protection and roaming). Funny.


Jokic gaps Giannis, the amount he does is not even funny. It's been like this since 2021 where Jokic has had an argument for best in the world. Stop glazing Giannis and disrespecting Jokic.

Stop talking basketball mate. Go watch cricket or something else.

Ps. On the thread: Jokic will be top10 when all is said and done. So will Giannis.

Stop glazing Giannis. Ur proving everything I said about Giannis FC, that they resort to insults with no facts, and ignore the millions of failures he had.

Like genuinely if KDs foot was one inch sorter he would have nothing to show for his legacy. He's been a consistent failure throughout his career. Put Devin Booker on that team he wins 3 titles at LEAST.

Also, stop being hostile. I can fight back with this if I want to but just because I have an opinion that has never been debunked and is completely true, doesn't mean you should be a butt hurt Giannis Stan about it.

[Mephariel]

Jokic is probably in my top 15. He is a champion and 3 time MVP.

But did I read this right that one of the poster said Giannis is not top 50? LOL.

[dhsilv2]

When we start listening to limiting turnovers to highlight someone’s defensive impacts we start entering the abstract

And yet, we went back and fourth for a week on this topic and you couldn't quantify any of your issues with Jokic's defense. Your arguments are just as abstract.

As Iggy clearly point out. We have enough data to state that beyond a shadow of doubt, Jokic's defense makes his team's overall defense better. This isn't a debatable fact, the data sets are too large and too robust with him.

If you’re being honest, I quantified every argument I made. And a Jokic team has only been a top 10 defense once since he entered his prime.

No, you attempted to qualify your opinions. You couldn't quantify how they impact the results. I kept trying to get you to do so and you absolutely refused to even try.

[dhsilv2]

I specifically said "If you make an All-Defensive Team OR at least worthy of making All-Defensive teams, you can labelled a 2-way player in my book".
There might be 30 or 40 players who are worthy of making the All-Defensive teams, and if they are also among the better offensive players then they'll be "2-way players".

Using XRAPM's defensive percentiles

2016 - 96th
2017 - 93rd
2018 - 87th
2019 - 92nd
2020 - 68th
2021 - 93rd
2022 - 93rd
2023 - 96th
2024 - 97th

Given there are about 450 legit player in the league at any given time. Anyone in the top 10% would be in that 40ish group. So we can wrap this up. Jokic meets your definition.

What is XRAPM's defensive percentiles and how is it calculated?

Do you know what a percentile is? It's calculated based on what percentile you dXRAPM is...

[hagredionis]

I've Jokic outside of my top 20 and the reason is his defense. These past playoffs was the first time I really watched all Denver games and I was surprised how bad his defense is because I always read here in these forums that he's a good defender. He's of course a generation talented on the offensive end and if his defense would be better I'd easily rank him top 10 all time but so far he isn't in the top 20 for me.

If defense is your issue then you would agree that Dirk and Curry should not be in the top 20? I don't think many people would agree with that.

In my opinion, while Jokic isn't a great defender, he's not a bad one, and he's an elite rebounder.

But that's the thing, there is a significant difference between a pg being a mediocre defender and a center being a mediocre defender. If your pg is a mediocre defender but you've a good defensive center your defense is still going to be good but if your center is a mediocre defender then he's probably getting exposed in the playoffs.

[hagredionis]

I've Jokic outside of my top 20 and the reason is his defense. These past playoffs was the first time I really watched all Denver games and I was surprised how bad his defense is because I always read here in these forums that he's a good defender. He's of course a generation talented on the offensive end and if his defense would be better I'd easily rank him top 10 all time but so far he isn't in the top 20 for me.

Past season they played worst defense in the last 10 years, all of the Nuggets, for various reasons. So you have seen his (Nuggets) playoff lows. If you have time and will go look 2023 playoffs, their playoff highs.
This way you will have better picture

I don't know man, I watched Serbia vs Finland and his defense wasn't good either.

[DimesandKnicks]

And yet, we went back and fourth for a week on this topic and you couldn't quantify any of your issues with Jokic's defense. Your arguments are just as abstract.

As Iggy clearly point out. We have enough data to state that beyond a shadow of doubt, Jokic's defense makes his team's overall defense better. This isn't a debatable fact, the data sets are too large and too robust with him.

If you’re being honest, I quantified every argument I made. And a Jokic team has only been a top 10 defense once since he entered his prime.

No, you attempted to qualify your opinions. You couldn't quantify how they impact the results. I kept trying to get you to do so and you absolutely refused to even try.

You’re entitled to your opinion. Not interested in relitigating

[DimesandKnicks]

Using XRAPM's defensive percentiles

2016 - 96th
2017 - 93rd
2018 - 87th
2019 - 92nd
2020 - 68th
2021 - 93rd
2022 - 93rd
2023 - 96th
2024 - 97th

Given there are about 450 legit player in the league at any given time. Anyone in the top 10% would be in that 40ish group. So we can wrap this up. Jokic meets your definition.

What is XRAPM's defensive percentiles and how is it calculated?

Do you know what a percentile is? It's calculated based on what percentile you dXRAPM is...

I know exactly what a percentile is and how to calculate it. What I’m asking more so is what is XRAPM and how is it calculated? What is the formula?