Johnny Bball wrote:Stan wrote:bonita_the_frog wrote:I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.
And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding
And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.
Claiming Bird was an "elite" defender is ludicrous.
Pre or post back problems? Because for one of them I don't think it is.
Plus I never said elite defender, I said "elite 2-way player" meaning he was elite (Bird easily elite, 3 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs) and he was a 2-way player.
And in order to be a 2-way player (in my book) you have to be WORTHY of making an All-Defensive Team.
And Bird is WAY more than worthy, because he made All-Defensive Team on THREE occasions, and he was worthy of it.
And even in 1990-91, years into his BAD BACK era he still averaged 1.0 blocks per game (and averaged 1.2 blocks at his peak in 1984-85).
And in the playoffs Bird averaged 1.4 blocks in 1981-82, and 1.2 blocks in 1983-84.
And a player who doesn't jump much, and especially with a bad back, averaging 1.0 blocks per game (for 60 games in 1990-91) shows you what he was made of.
Jokic has never averaged 1.0 blocks per game (averaged 0.9 for one season), despite being fully fit and 2 inches taller than Bird.