Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop?

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Are 90's Fans Killing Hip Hop?

Yes
6
10%
No, Shaq is
53
90%
 
Total votes: 59

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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#221 » by Funcrusher » Tue Oct 8, 2019 10:20 pm

freethedevil wrote:
Funcrusher wrote:
freethedevil wrote:1. No, I quoted two songs while also contextualizing them as part of an album and making reference to other parts of the album. Using a song here is kind of silly.

2. Because it offers less? What's the point of introducing elements that don't significantly contribute to the impact of a work? It doesn't have to, but if i'm comparing a song that is able to do things meaningful in a narrative sense with it's instruments to one that gives you sald dressing, I'm going to favor the former. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree, as it does not do what tpab does instrumentally, you cannot say tpab isn't unprecedented based on this song's existence. Even if you think it's not an improvement to have the voice, the instrumental, the lyrics, and a meta carry a story with strong execution, it is laughable to use these two songs as an argument that somehow tpab is "precdented".

3. It's structurally a set up, but the actual content of the songs payoff anywhere. If you want to call that set up and payoff, go ahead, but it doesn't at all support your stance that kendrick taking very specific details and then expanding them using a meta, the instruments, AND the lyrics is something the dude you posted also did.


4. Fam, it doesn't matter what standard you set, becuase there's you've pointed out nothing this song does which kendrick hasn't done, and there's plenty I've pointed out which the song you mentioned doesn't do.

If it is equally pushing the genre, tell me what it does that kendrick's **** doesn't do. Parallell stories? Cool, Kendrick's done that over the span of a single song. Kendrick made an album which can read backwards and forwards. You're welcome to disgaree with my preposition that doing more well is better than doing less well, but based on what you've argued kendrick has clearly done more, because everything you've listed has been done by kendrick and many of the things i listed haven't been done by the song you've cited.

You cannot say "kendrick is not uhnprecedented" and then back that up by showing songs that don't even attempt what kendrick has done.

1. No, I quoted two songs while also contextualizing them as part of an album and making reference to other parts of the album. Using a song here is kind of silly.

Yes, you quoted two songs. Everything else you said here is bull.

2. Because it offers less? What's the point of introducing elements that don't significantly contribute to the impact of a work? It doesn't have to, but if i'm comparing a song that is able to do things meaningful in a narrative sense with it's instruments to one that gives you sald dressing, I'm going to favor the former. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree, as it does not do what tpab does instrumentally, you cannot say tpab isn't unprecedented based on this song's existence. Even if you think it's not an improvement to have the voice, the instrumental, the lyrics, and a meta carry a story with strong execution, it is laughable to use these two songs as an argument that somehow tpab is "precdented".


Nonsense. The instrumental isn't a **** standalone piece, it doesn't have to carry the narrative on it's own, it's giving the narrative, i.e. lyrics, an ambience, that's not salad dressing :banghead: And again, Instrumentals that are a narrative unto themselves did not begin with TPAB, so stop with this unprecedented crap. But even if it was, that wouldn't diminish the value of past eras, you're making the assumption that producing something "unprecedented," is equivalent to reaching the apex of that medium. And quite frankly, scrutinizing music to such a clinical degree is just lame and unproductive, and betrays the whole point of said music. Music is made to be understood yes, and dissected, but ultimately it has to strike a chord that extends beyond conscious thought. This fallacy that more extensive detail = it's doing more is wrong and yes, elitist. If both songs resonate with me why the **** should I care that one is a more all around extensive piece.

3. It's structurally a set up, but the actual content of the songs payoff anywhere. If you want to call that set up and payoff, go ahead, but it doesn't at all support your stance that kendrick taking very specific details and then expanding them using a meta, the instruments, AND the lyrics is something the dude you posted also did.


4. Fam, it doesn't matter what standard you set, becuase there's you've pointed out nothing this song does which kendrick hasn't done, and there's plenty I've pointed out which the song you mentioned doesn't do.

If it is equally pushing the genre, tell me what it does that kendrick's **** doesn't do. Parallell stories? Cool, Kendrick's done that over the span of a single song. Kendrick made an album which can read backwards and forwards. You're welcome to disgaree with my preposition that doing more well is better than doing less well, but based on what you've argued kendrick has clearly done more, because everything you've listed has been done by kendrick and many of the things i listed haven't been done by the song you've cited.


Complete nonsense, again. What does it do that Kendrick doesn't do? Well it's infinitely more dense lyrically, and yes that matters to me more than "cinematography" and "syncopathic instrumentals." And really, I don't care if an entire album has more technical elements than one song, and again, that doesn't equate to it "doing more," because doing more isn't weighted on the individual parts, it's weighted on the whole, and there's no objective definition of doing more. But keep digging your own grave, fam, and talk to me like you are the all knowing arbiter on innovative music.

1. Literally said:
the poem acts as an allegory for the album as a whole

Notice, how I'm contextualizing it with reference to the album? :o

Literal bull if you can't read.

2.You can bang your head all you want, but it's only "nonsense" if we ignore this is a comparison., One song's ambiance only serves as ambiance, The other song's ambiance is able to have an impact outside of mere "ambiance". It is not "nonsense" fo rme to favor a song which is able to do more with it's salad dressing than another's. No it doesn't have to do anything, but it's being compared to a song that does it anyway, so it's perferctly fair for me to give credit that does more anyway and not give credit to the song which doesn't do that. What part of this is "nonsense" outside of you being pretentious about it? And f off, if you can scrutitize the math of how many rymes a lyric rhymes with another one, I'm more than free to scrutinize the instrumentals since they are a featured aspect of the track.

Also, the "unprecedented" comes from the combination of elements. Nothing is unprecedented really if we just break down singular elements. The apex is reached when you combine the different elements. TPAB is not the first album to use instruments narratively. It is the first album to combine steady layering with drastic jumps in layering AND use a variety of vocal sounds to represent different characters, AND use a hoe as a metaphor for America AND mix drastically different lyrical styles AND make use extensive set of silence to offer a carthasis AND base its ultimate payoff on the set up of onomonopia which itself ties itself to a meta poem allegory which itself is tied to an instrumental crescendo that itself progresses itself in way akin to the progression of the metaphor that is used as an allegory for the album. If what i just said isn't unprecedented, no song in the history of music has been "unprecedented". It takes storytelling to extreme lengths, instruments to extreme lengths, and lyrics to extreme lengths whiile, when it makes sense for its story, maintaining strong lyrical complexity. And it has done all that while mantaining high level execution. It's an album that aims for the moon and lands and hence I consider it well above albums that are able to land much shorter jumps. If you aren't impressed, that's your perogative, but acting like it's somehow not "unprecedeted" is hilarious. It's like space oddyssey isn't unique because we've already seen movies where they have scenes which a bunch of colors.


3. And if lyrical density is your criteria for hip hop, you're welcome to it, but to say this implies i don't know about hip hop is beyond hilarious. I don't know less because I don't care so much about how dense something is. Sensity only matters to me if it goes somewhere. Kendrick's album isn't lyrically dense, but when looked at holitically is far more "dense" and complex than the song you linked. I also don't know why you cherrypicked two elements when i listed several
-> narratively significant diversity of lyrical structure
-> narratively significant diversity of instrumentation
-> narratively significant diversity of vocal delivery
-> well executed use of multiple different characters
-> narratively significant use of various metaphors, motifs
-> narratively significant use of a meta
-> meaningful variation in the pace of instrumentation and lyrics

I care for lyrical complexity when it acheives something. And hence, imo, connecting back to my pretenious stance, modern music's greater emphasis and capacity on storytelling, wider range and instrumental versatility gives it's greatest products an edge over the great products of earlier eras. That's as valid of an opinion as your "everything's equal cause i say so".

Regardless, as there's a wider talent pool of musicians to draw from now, and a wider history of music for them to draw from, I do expect thoseat the top to be better logically then the top of prior eras.


What I do find hilarious is when people prop up the 90's because of lyrical density being more frquent. And hence I responded accordingly, I think it's silly and pointless. But at least I don't go around questioning people's knowledge because i don't like their criteria

1. Literally said:
the poem acts as an allegory for the album as a whole

Notice, how I'm contextualizing it with reference to the album? :o


Wow, that's so much contextualization, saying the poem acts as an allegory for the album without even **** posting the album or going any further in depth really proves your point :roll:

2.You can bang your head all you want, but it's only "nonsense" if we ignore this is a comparison., One song's ambiance only serves as ambiance, The other song's ambiance is able to have an impact outside of mere "ambiance". It is not "nonsense" fo rme to favor a song which is able to do more with it's salad dressing than another's. No it doesn't have to do anything, but it's being compared to a song that does it anyway, so it's perferctly fair for me to give credit that does more anyway and not give credit to the song which doesn't do that. What part of this is "nonsense" outside of you being pretentious about it? And f off, if you can scrutitize the math of how many rymes a lyric rhymes with another one, I'm more than free to scrutinize the instrumentals since they are a featured aspect of the track.


No, it's **** stupid and it's not doing more, for the umpteenth time. You are assigning made up values for what the instrumentals accomplish, ambiance can be just as **** important as actively establishing a narrative, especially since as I've said many times, IT'S NOT ACTING AS A STANDALONE PIECE. King Kunta is basically all instrumental, so of course it's going to carry the song by itself, that's not groundbreaking or unprecedented. And I don't care if you assign more credit to one song over the other, you can feel any **** way you want. But don't act like the victim when you are literally pushing your opinion as fact down everyone's throats, just to flex and say, "HiP HOp wASn'T bETteR iN pASt EraS" Yes, I can bang my head all i want, and don't tell me to **** off when you are the one talking out of your ass. Did I ever say i was scrutinizing the lyrical density of Aesop? I said it was something he did that was "unprecendented" compared to Kendrick, I didn't say that makes his music superior and that he's "doing more"

3. And if lyrical density is your criteria for hip hop, you're welcome to it, but to say this implies i don't know about hip hop is beyond hilarious. I don't know less because I don't care so much about how dense something is. Sensity only matters to me if it goes somewhere. Kendrick's album isn't lyrically dense, but when looked at holitically is far more "dense" and complex than the song you linked. I also don't know why you cherrypicked two elements when i listed several
-> narratively significant diversity of lyrical structure
-> narratively significant diversity of instrumentation
-> narratively significant diversity of vocal delivery
-> well executed use of multiple different characters
-> narratively significant use of various metaphors, motifs
-> narratively significant use of a meta
-> meaningful variation in the pace of instrumentation and lyrics

1) I never said lyrical density is my criteria for hip hop. This is an argument you've invented entirely on your own
2) Most everything you claim Kendrick did Aesop did, and in one song no less.

I care for lyrical complexity when it acheives something. And hence, imo, connecting back to my pretenious stance, modern music's greater emphasis and capacity on storytelling, wider range and instrumental versatility gives it's greatest products an edge over the great products of earlier eras. That's as valid of an opinion as your "everything's equal cause i say so".

Regardless, as there's a wider talent pool of musicians to draw from now, and a wider history of music for them to draw from, I do expect thoseat the top to be better logically then the top of prior eras.


What I do find hilarious is when people prop up the 90's because of lyrical density being more frquent. And hence I responded accordingly, I think it's silly and pointless. But at least I don't go around questioning people's knowledge because i don't like their criteria

:lol: you really think modern music has evolved past previous generations? You realize how absurd that sounds, right? And way to compress my argument into something as shallow as "everything's equal cause i say so," i'd like to return the favor, because everything you've said basically boils down to, "today's music is better cause i say so." I fail to see how KL's music puts a greater emphasis and capacity on storytelling than AR because he changes his **** delivery, please explain to me how that makes any sense, and again, instrumental versatility doesn't mean the instrumentals are actually doing more or serve a greater purpose. That's false equivalency 101.

And i never said the 90s are superior to current music because "lyrical density." Don't put words in my mouth, man. I'm not questioning your knowledge, i'm questioning your arrogance and dick wagging. Pretending to be above everyone else in regards to musical preference is pathetic.
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#222 » by BloodyQ » Tue Oct 8, 2019 10:22 pm

Mighty Quinn wrote:I don't begrudge trap rappers at all. They have their lane and people like it, so whatever. You can blame Gucci, Migos, and Rich Homie Quan for 99% of the rap you hear today.


This whole thing is absurd.

There is a misconception that EVERYTHING today sounds like.....that stuff you mentioned.

In fact, there are MORE complex lyrical rappers today than ever before because of the internet. There are MORE modern rap that sounds like 90s "classic" hip-hop than ever before because of the internet. Think about it, all those hundreds and thousands of rappers today who love the 90s sound, what do you think they're gonna do? They would put out an album on the internet that sounds just like that 90s stuff (but most people here would never even hear about it). Most people are too lazy to go find that stuff and they'd rather complain about Lil Yatchy or Lil'whoever because they suck at finding good hip-hop music in 2019.

Ask anyone in here how many recent Hip-Hop albums have they actually sat down and listened to.....yeah.....less than 3 probably for most people.
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#223 » by PistolPeteJR » Tue Oct 8, 2019 10:35 pm

Some good rap still nowadays, but not mainstream. NF’s got some good stuff.
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#224 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Oct 8, 2019 10:35 pm

Rich Rane wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
_Game7_ wrote:Just made one of the best songs of all time, no big deal right?




if this the 90s Lil Yachty we're okay over here. :lol: :lol: :lol:


I'd take Puffy over anything listed here:
https://www.xxlmag.com/news/2019/07/best-hip-hop-songs-2019-so-far

I will admit to not giving new hip hop since the late 2000s much of a chance though.



I grew up on 90s rap, you're honestly doing yourself a disservice if you're not giving some of these people listed a chance

Anderson Paak, Dreamville (J. Cole's artists), Tyler, Benny the Butcher, Freddie Gibbs, YBN Cordae (talented despite his looks), Denzel Curry and Nipsey Hussel. Overrating the artists of the past is when you place someone like Puff over people like the above, someone like Anderson Paak has more talent in his pinky than Puff ever had

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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#225 » by Capn'O » Tue Oct 8, 2019 10:53 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
ThomYorke wrote:It's pretty awkward being a basketball fan and not liking rap music


If it makes you feel any better, I like rap but also some of the whitest music imaginable... Dave Matthews, Coldplay, Billy Joel, Elton John, you name it. I’m a sucker for music in general and can even pinpoint the occasional country song that I enjoy.


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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#226 » by fourtyounce48 » Tue Oct 8, 2019 10:55 pm

freethedevil wrote:
gst8 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:


/credibility

/no response.

Alright lets make this east for you:

Lets start with isntrumentals:
https://youtu.be/jjM5wcWeSaU?list=PLvdIn_vh_tIg5nd5y_lf-hniRqbaijR-V

Song adds 5 different layers of instrumentals over 30 seconds, three levels of vocal instrumentations. Wanna tell me where you can fidn this in illimatic? Spoiler: you can't. There's barely any key changes and yo never get anything beyond three layers of sonic development.


Next, [/i]storytelling[/i]

https://youtu.be/vadFiKigeCQ?list=PLvdIn_vh_tIg5nd5y_lf-hniRqbaijR-V&t=621

So many levels of story telling here

Level 1: -> Literal reading of the poem which works as the animal farm to the album's communist uprising
Level 2: -> The literal ramping up of the instrumental which expands range as it goes on like a catepillar becoming a butterfly and expanding it's wings
Level 3: -> The conversation with boogie which ending of a pop pop pop justifies kendrick "pimping the butterfly" as he says he does i the poem


Finally, Coherence

The pop pop pop is something we see brought up in the song king kunta. Set up, and payoff.
The butterfly being pimped is repeatedly brought up in various songs prior to this. Set up and payoff.


Can you find me any sort of continuity in illmatic? No, it doesn't exist. Can you find me multiple levels of simultaeous storytelling? No, you can't.

I realize that 90's hip hop fans much like 90's basketball fans are obssessed with 'rhymes" much like bball fans are obsseseed with postups but lets be clear counting how many rhymes a song has doesn't make you "credible". lyrics are merely an element of music, if you learn to understand songs holistically, you'll grow past the silly "90's>now" takes we always see from nolstagic blowhards.

90's great songs do one instrument at a transcendent level and are merely good at other things, and a non factor in other elements. TPAB is transcendent on multiple levels and very good in terms of lyrical complexity.

There is no comparison.


Trying to hard. In 20 years you'll copy and paste this when someone youngster is telling you the current music is better than your generations.
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#227 » by GeorgeMarcus » Tue Oct 8, 2019 11:06 pm

Capn'O wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
ThomYorke wrote:It's pretty awkward being a basketball fan and not liking rap music


If it makes you feel any better, I like rap but also some of the whitest music imaginable... Dave Matthews, Coldplay, Billy Joel, Elton John, you name it. I’m a sucker for music in general and can even pinpoint the occasional country song that I enjoy.


Darius Rucker breaks the whole system.



Definitely one of the first songs to come to mind when I think about country music I enjoy
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#228 » by Rich Rane » Tue Oct 8, 2019 11:16 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Rich Rane wrote:
clyde21 wrote:


if this the 90s Lil Yachty we're okay over here. :lol: :lol: :lol:


I'd take Puffy over anything listed here:
https://www.xxlmag.com/news/2019/07/best-hip-hop-songs-2019-so-far

I will admit to not giving new hip hop since the late 2000s much of a chance though.



I grew up on 90s rap, you're honestly doing yourself a disservice if you're not giving some of these people listed a chance

Anderson Paak, Dreamville (J. Cole's artists), Tyler, Benny the Butcher, Freddie Gibbs, YBN Cordae (talented despite his looks), Denzel Curry and Nipsey Hussel. Overrating the artists of the past is when you place someone like Puff over people like the above, someone like Anderson Paak has more talent in his pinky than Puff ever had



Puff has the distinct personal advantage of being tied to memories. Once Lil Wayne and Tha Carter 3 along with the heights of autotune came along, I've pretty much separated myself with contemporary hip-hop and anything that came after the autotune craze. Then artists I listened to back in the day went past their primes or just strayed too far from what I listened to, incorporating parts of pop music I've also strayed from.

Once in a while, a friend will put on the radio in my car and get me to listen to something new, but for the most part, I just don't feel it. And I get why people nowadays don't listen to Puff, but I'll still take him over anything new these days.
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#229 » by Tracymcgoaty » Tue Oct 8, 2019 11:18 pm

Hip hop is alive and well only thing thats changed is the marketing. Mainstream is marketing groups like Migos,future etc..You've got rappers like Big Pooh,Joell Ortiz,Oddisee,Ugly Heroes on and on and on who'll never get the marketing on the same level because they rap about stuff that matters. Migos and everyone like them are all flash and no substance. Craziest things i hear from people who say they like hip-hop is ''Who cares about the lyrics man it's the beat that matter'' And there you have it.
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#230 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Oct 8, 2019 11:28 pm

Rich Rane wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Rich Rane wrote:
I'd take Puffy over anything listed here:
https://www.xxlmag.com/news/2019/07/best-hip-hop-songs-2019-so-far

I will admit to not giving new hip hop since the late 2000s much of a chance though.



I grew up on 90s rap, you're honestly doing yourself a disservice if you're not giving some of these people listed a chance

Anderson Paak, Dreamville (J. Cole's artists), Tyler, Benny the Butcher, Freddie Gibbs, YBN Cordae (talented despite his looks), Denzel Curry and Nipsey Hussel. Overrating the artists of the past is when you place someone like Puff over people like the above, someone like Anderson Paak has more talent in his pinky than Puff ever had



Puff has the distinct personal advantage of being tied to memories. Once Lil Wayne and Tha Carter 3 along with the heights of autotune came along, I've pretty much separated myself with contemporary hip-hop and anything that came after the autotune craze. Then artists I listened to back in the day went past their primes or just strayed too far from what I listened to, incorporating parts of pop music I've also strayed from.

Once in a while, a friend will put on the radio in my car and get me to listen to something new, but for the most part, I just don't feel it. And I get why people nowadays don't listen to Puff, but I'll still take him over anything new these days.


I don't let the memories cloud my judgement with Puff, all he was to me was Spliff Star's final form, his actual music was all ghostwritten and corny to me, even at the time when he was still hot. I'd skip his verses when his part came up when I was younger, outside of the ad-libs I didn't want to hear anything he had to say.

I grew up in the same era, and those guys named above have actual talent and good music, you can't post a list of the top 55 songs of 2019 then say you'd rather listen to Puff if you've never actually listened to the cream of the crop on that list. It's close minded to be honest, all I'm saying is some of those guys, not all of them are very talented and make some great music regardless of the era.
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#231 » by Rich Rane » Tue Oct 8, 2019 11:43 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Rich Rane wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

I grew up on 90s rap, you're honestly doing yourself a disservice if you're not giving some of these people listed a chance

Anderson Paak, Dreamville (J. Cole's artists), Tyler, Benny the Butcher, Freddie Gibbs, YBN Cordae (talented despite his looks), Denzel Curry and Nipsey Hussel. Overrating the artists of the past is when you place someone like Puff over people like the above, someone like Anderson Paak has more talent in his pinky than Puff ever had



Puff has the distinct personal advantage of being tied to memories. Once Lil Wayne and Tha Carter 3 along with the heights of autotune came along, I've pretty much separated myself with contemporary hip-hop and anything that came after the autotune craze. Then artists I listened to back in the day went past their primes or just strayed too far from what I listened to, incorporating parts of pop music I've also strayed from.

Once in a while, a friend will put on the radio in my car and get me to listen to something new, but for the most part, I just don't feel it. And I get why people nowadays don't listen to Puff, but I'll still take him over anything new these days.


I don't let the memories cloud my judgement with Puff, all he was to me was Spliff Star's final form, his actual music was all ghostwritten and corny to me, even at the time when he was still hot. I'd skip his verses when his part came up when I was younger, outside of the ad-libs I didn't want to hear anything he had to say.

I grew up in the same era, and those guys named above have actual talent and good music, you can't post a list of the top 55 songs of 2019 then say you'd rather listen to Puff if you've never actually listened to the cream of the crop on that list. It's close minded to be honest, all I'm saying is some of those guys, not all of them are very talented and make some great music regardless of the era.


Perhaps it is close-minded, but again it's not like I don't give much of new music, not just hip-hop, a chance. I'd rather sift through older relatives' music these days and find something. I've gotten more joy discovering Ultramagnetic MCs, Smashing Pumpkins, and Sam Cooke, for myself than anything released the last decade.
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#232 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Wed Oct 9, 2019 12:05 am

Rich Rane wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Rich Rane wrote:
Puff has the distinct personal advantage of being tied to memories. Once Lil Wayne and Tha Carter 3 along with the heights of autotune came along, I've pretty much separated myself with contemporary hip-hop and anything that came after the autotune craze. Then artists I listened to back in the day went past their primes or just strayed too far from what I listened to, incorporating parts of pop music I've also strayed from.

Once in a while, a friend will put on the radio in my car and get me to listen to something new, but for the most part, I just don't feel it. And I get why people nowadays don't listen to Puff, but I'll still take him over anything new these days.


I don't let the memories cloud my judgement with Puff, all he was to me was Spliff Star's final form, his actual music was all ghostwritten and corny to me, even at the time when he was still hot. I'd skip his verses when his part came up when I was younger, outside of the ad-libs I didn't want to hear anything he had to say.

I grew up in the same era, and those guys named above have actual talent and good music, you can't post a list of the top 55 songs of 2019 then say you'd rather listen to Puff if you've never actually listened to the cream of the crop on that list. It's close minded to be honest, all I'm saying is some of those guys, not all of them are very talented and make some great music regardless of the era.


Perhaps it is close-minded, but again it's not like I don't give much of new music, not just hip-hop, a chance. I'd rather sift through older relatives' music these days and find something. I've gotten more joy discovering Ultramagnetic MCs, Smashing Pumpkins, and Sam Cooke, for myself than anything released the last decade.



I get that, but my hang up was on using Puff as the talking point, like that dude legitimately had very little in the way of music talent. He's just a hard worker that had a good ear, but as a rapper he said it best "Don't worry about if I write rhymes, I write checks" and as a producer he was more of a director on what sounded good and told someone else to make the beat. Just give some stuff a chance, I didn't really listen to British music until a few years ago and love it now.
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#233 » by freethedevil » Wed Oct 9, 2019 6:24 am

Panic610 wrote:Can't respect any top 5 that doesn't have Jay-z on it. He fits every criteria of a good rapper.

Bars
Storytelling
Witty/Clever
Flows (can switch it up and evolve)
Success
Beat selection

I don't think he's peak was goat, but his longevity is unquestioned.. GOAT by far.
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#234 » by freethedevil » Wed Oct 9, 2019 6:27 am

fourtyounce48 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
gst8 wrote:
/credibility

/no response.

Alright lets make this east for you:

Lets start with isntrumentals:
https://youtu.be/jjM5wcWeSaU?list=PLvdIn_vh_tIg5nd5y_lf-hniRqbaijR-V

Song adds 5 different layers of instrumentals over 30 seconds, three levels of vocal instrumentations. Wanna tell me where you can fidn this in illimatic? Spoiler: you can't. There's barely any key changes and yo never get anything beyond three layers of sonic development.


Next, [/i]storytelling[/i]

https://youtu.be/vadFiKigeCQ?list=PLvdIn_vh_tIg5nd5y_lf-hniRqbaijR-V&t=621

So many levels of story telling here

Level 1: -> Literal reading of the poem which works as the animal farm to the album's communist uprising
Level 2: -> The literal ramping up of the instrumental which expands range as it goes on like a catepillar becoming a butterfly and expanding it's wings
Level 3: -> The conversation with boogie which ending of a pop pop pop justifies kendrick "pimping the butterfly" as he says he does i the poem


Finally, Coherence

The pop pop pop is something we see brought up in the song king kunta. Set up, and payoff.
The butterfly being pimped is repeatedly brought up in various songs prior to this. Set up and payoff.


Can you find me any sort of continuity in illmatic? No, it doesn't exist. Can you find me multiple levels of simultaeous storytelling? No, you can't.

I realize that 90's hip hop fans much like 90's basketball fans are obssessed with 'rhymes" much like bball fans are obsseseed with postups but lets be clear counting how many rhymes a song has doesn't make you "credible". lyrics are merely an element of music, if you learn to understand songs holistically, you'll grow past the silly "90's>now" takes we always see from nolstagic blowhards.

90's great songs do one instrument at a transcendent level and are merely good at other things, and a non factor in other elements. TPAB is transcendent on multiple levels and very good in terms of lyrical complexity.

There is no comparison.


Trying to hard. In 20 years you'll copy and paste this when someone youngster is telling you the current music is better than your generations.

Nah. I've always went for the obscure **** rather popular ****, so when in the 2050's when someone has managed to bridge the interactivity of video games with m83/pink floyd/david lynch sonic lsd with creative lyrics and strong stories, I'll be there to break down why it's clearly the GOAT
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#235 » by Panic610 » Wed Oct 9, 2019 6:39 am

freethedevil wrote:
Panic610 wrote:Can't respect any top 5 that doesn't have Jay-z on it. He fits every criteria of a good rapper.

Bars
Storytelling
Witty/Clever
Flows (can switch it up and evolve)
Success
Beat selection

I don't think he's peak was goat, but his longevity is unquestioned.. GOAT by far.


Who is your at GOAT at their peak?
Blue_and_Whte wrote:Whats hilarious to me is that if Markelle's' jumper returns hes actually a better fit than B Simmons... LMAO. Dude is massively overrated.
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#236 » by freethedevil » Wed Oct 9, 2019 6:54 am

Panic610 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Panic610 wrote:Can't respect any top 5 that doesn't have Jay-z on it. He fits every criteria of a good rapper.

Bars
Storytelling
Witty/Clever
Flows (can switch it up and evolve)
Success
Beat selection

I don't think he's peak was goat, but his longevity is unquestioned.. GOAT by far.


Who is your at GOAT at their peak?

GOAT peak was probably az's verse on life's a bitch :D


Tho really for peak I have

1. TPAB, Kendrick
2. College Drop Out, Kanye
3. Kid Cudi, Man on Moon
4. Emniem, Marshall Matters LP
5. Mob Deep, The Infamous

PS: Nas won the beef, but takeover was >>>> ether. One man made gay jokes, the other analytically decimated nas's career.
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#237 » by freethedevil » Wed Oct 9, 2019 7:00 am

E-Balla wrote:
freethedevil wrote:This was the comment of a 90's fan who, for his own safety, won't be named regarding a rap battle.

This is a battle who cares about technical rap ability.


No wonder good music is dying, :noway:


Bonus question:

Shaqtin a Fool or nah?:
[So the only thing left now, kill these cats
Soft ass, I'ma kill these cats
Already won, I'm too smart for these cats
While you spittin' metaphors, I'm spittin' up facts

:clap:

90s fan? My dude I'm 25. :lol:

And you think illmatic is the undisputed goat. You don't have to be from the 90's to be a 90's fan you know :roll:
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#238 » by freethedevil » Wed Oct 9, 2019 7:01 am

E-Balla wrote:Truth is 1994 is still the best year in rap history. Outkast, Common, Nas, Biggie, and Scarface can all be argued top 10 all time and they dropped their debut albums that year. For Nas, Biggie, and Scarface it was their best album.

Next closest year is probably 2011 (Take Care, Section.80, WTT, XXX, Goblin, Dr. Lector, Covert Coup, Live.Love.ASAP, Blue Slide Park, Random Axe, Black and Brown) but most of those releases I put there are mixtapes. Rap nowadays has less classics and more depth.

Ewww
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#239 » by freethedevil » Wed Oct 9, 2019 7:06 am

BoardCrusher wrote:

This always gets cited for mob deep, but honestly, imo, it doesn't hold a candle to this:
.
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Re: Are 90's Fans Killing Hip-Hop? 

Post#240 » by freethedevil » Wed Oct 9, 2019 7:13 am

liamliam1234 wrote:Real storytelling and instrumental complexity peaked over a century ago with Strauss and Wagner and Verdi and Puccini and Rossini. And of course all of them arguably never even made it out of Mozart’s shadow. Tragic how true musical artistry declined so severely in the past century.

Lol what? If by "real storytelling" you mean less nuanced, less creative, and less varied, then yes. If you're talking about the elements of craft then thhat a lol worthy no.


As for "instrumental complexity", that makes sense if we use a very narrow definition of "complexity" like "lets count down how many notes/chords/key measures are used!" But when we consider the variation of elements, set up and payoff, and contrast, the most "complex" instrumental compositions of today are far more dynamic than what we'vs seen in the supposed "golden age" for such things.

THis song for example:


Is it as "complex" as mozart using your criteria? No. But it's variations are vastly more effective due to how they're used.

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